England in pole position for a series win

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Why don't we look back now on the third day of the second Test match between England and Pakistan at Lord's? I am joined by Jonathan Agnew, Michael Vaughan, Ramiz Raja to look back on a truncated day. Just the 96 runs scored, 4 wickets went down, uh, 24 overs. Pretty much we had. So refunds for the customers here, 50% refunds is pretty much the only bright spark on the horizon. But a day in which Pakistan have stuck at it. They picked up those 4 wickets. England didn't get away, but Dan Lawrence did star with the bat with an unbeaten 50. And it began early with the dismissal of Emilio Gay, who is proving to be one of the unluckiest cricketers around. Michael Vaughan, we talked about this a little bit on air. That was a horrible ball to face, wasn't it? A shooter that did for him.

Yeah, I mean, he'll probably be thinking in the dressing room and watching back, why me? You know, there was not one other ball that rolled along the deck, and it's not happened throughout the whole game. That's all the overs that England have batted, all the overs that Pakistan batted. Not too many from Pakistan, but enough to suggest that Emilio Gay has been very, very unlucky. I mean, he's at that stage of his Test career, 5 Test matches in. He got a nice 50 here against New Zealand, and in recent times he's got in and he's got out. He got caught down the leg side in the first innings, gets a roller in the second. He must be thinking, oh, his Test cricket kind of working its way against me. But he's just got to keep believing. I think the way that he played and he gets to 31, particularly yesterday's 30 not out that he arrived here with today, I thought he played well. You know, he's not a player that I'm looking at thinking, oh, do I see him at the minute having 50 to 80 Test matches? Possibly not. But I think it's worth even giving him obviously the next Test match. And if I was them, I'd give him the 3 games in South Africa just to find out. That'd be 9 Test matches. Um, I think that's fair to find out about a player. If you suddenly start swapping and changing after, uh, 6 games on the back of, you know, the conditions have been pretty tough for batting this summer, uh, on the back of a couple of misfortunes, I, I think it'd be fair for him to get this, the winter series in South Africa. And I think then you can make a more of a sensible judgment call on him.

Jonathan, you rate him, don't you? And, uh, it just, it just got really unlucky.

I could have wept for him. I mean, that was a brutal ball, wasn't it? I mean, actually, funnily enough, in that brief period we've seen the pitch do all sorts of things. Yeah, I don't know whether it is just the overheads or what it was, but it seemed there were balls that were rearing, hitting Rizwan standing up to the stumps. I mean, it was a completely different pitch really to what we've seen over the last, um, the last couple of days. But that was just a horrible thing. And I do like him. I mean, we haven't seen him against proper pace bowling yet, and that's why I agree with Michael. I think South Africa would be good for him. Let's have a look. He's a tall man, he's a confident fella, but how does he play the short ball? How does he handle that sort of attack? I'd like to see that. He plays some nice attractive shots, particularly through the offside. We know from having chatted to him out there and having— some of you having worked with him on The Hundred— he's certainly a character. He's Yeah, he's confident, isn't he? And that's, that's a good thing too. Um, so I just like to persevere with him. But that was, that was a cruel, a very cruel delivery, and no one could have played that.

It was a cruel delivery. But Ramiz, um, did Pakistan exploit the conditions well enough? Because although that was the only one that really shot and kept low, but there was still lots of exaggerated movement. I mean, in the day— well, the bowling figures at the moment: Mohammad Abbas, 3 more wickets, 3 for 48. Khurram Shahzad, 2 for 56. Mohammad Ali, 2 for 54. Really the only 3 bowlers properly used. despite a couple of overs of spin. And did they get as much out of it as they should have done? 177 for 7, which England closed on, looks like a good day for Pakistan, but was it?

I mean, it's been a problem because, you know, in that phase they could have exerted more pressure, but we've seen Pakistan to be on and off. Uh, so 3 or 4 good overs and then, you know, there were easy runs to be had, and so the pressure was released and I agree. I mean, it could have been a lot better day for them, uh, more wickets. But even now, I mean, 7 wickets down, England are not struggling at all. I mean, look at the overall picture, it's a, it's a bad one for Pakistan. And so something to gee them up. I, I guess this was a day where they felt that, you know, they were a bit competitive, courtesy the conditions, the pitch, the way England batted. It's a difficult pitch to bat on.

I was sitting at the end down there I was watching the game. Stuart Broad came in as Ali Osman was brought into the attack, and Stuart said, if this had happened to me in these conditions and a spinner was brought on, I'd walk straight off the field. It did seem a bit of a strange choice, didn't it? I mean, yeah, and he got 2 overs for 17.

They bowled a lot of overs.

Well, they have, but come on, look at the balls nipping around all over the place. You know, you're just gonna— you've gotta pick— you know, they just had to keep going, I'm afraid. But he got, he got, he got whacked. Yeah, there's 2 overs, no pressure.

Well, Sarfaraz Ahmad said yesterday, didn't he, that if they could roll England for another 70 or 80 and chase around about 350, then a miracle could happen. Now actually, they're not a million miles from that. I mean, England have added, uh, what is that, 96 today, and I know they've only lost 4 wickets, but come back tomorrow and can go bang bang and it could be all done.

To get 357, they would have to bat, what, at least 100 overs, right? 110, 120 overs in three innings so far. They've batted about 75.

I'm trying to help, Ram.

So I'm trying to.

So I'm I'm just giving you a realistic picture against it, like Ram's saying.

Yes, okay. Well, let's let's I'll take that.

You're almost going to say you could give Pakistan three innings and they possibly won't win this game because that's a huge target on the pitch that we've seen today. I mean, 357 they're in front England with three wickets to go. We saw what Josh Tong did on that that that that that final wicket. Partnership with Gus Atkinson, so you would think England are going to get another 30 or 40 and 400 be the chase. And you know, it's going to be a tall order for Pakistan to look. What you want from Pakistan is just a little bit of something.

Sure.

You know, you want a little bit of spirit, and you want someone to go and get a 70 or 80 and just get them something that they could go. Okay, yeah, we've lost, but we can take that to his best. And this is a this is a tour where Pakistan have arrived with a team that. Is not that good. But what you can take away from this tour is, uh, one or two individuals stepping up to the plate, playing nicely. And, you know, that's all I can see from Pakistan.

This—

now, this pitch isn't going to get better, you know. It's not suddenly going to arrive on day 4, it's going to be eroded. And you've got an England quartet of quick bowlers that have been rested up, and they're, uh, they'll be, they'll be trying to get some, uh, some more wickets into, uh, their averages. So, uh, it's not going to be easy for Pakistan.

Well, Andy Zaltzman told us earlier today that, uh, this pitch is showing the same amount of movement between overs 21 and 50 pretty much as it is between 1 and 20. That is very unusual, and it's just kept on being incredibly hard to bat on. This pitch has become a source of—

My concern for Pakistan, and they were embarrassed yesterday, that it could get even worse tomorrow for them if they're not careful. If they arrive with any kind of negativity and start thinking about what happened in the first innings, you know, it could get really messy for them. That's their kind of Their goal tomorrow is to make sure that us, the pundits, fans, aren't using that word embarrassing. We want to see a little bit of spirit from them.

Right, there might be still opening batsman down, or are we? We don't really know what's happened. There's been no updates there.

No idea, no news on him.

I mean, that was disappointment.

Yeah, I mean, you know, we've talked about, you know, um, being, you know, inspirational in the dugout, and he's a senior player. I don't know how, how bad he is. But we've seen, you know, guys with worse injuries come out and play for the team. We haven't seen that.

Now I want to go back to the pitch a bit because, look, we had a terrible pitch here against New Zealand. It was— it got a demerit point, it was that bad. The pitches at Lord's have been getting more and more and more difficult. Andy Zaltzman's given us all the numbers on that over the course of this Test match. And, uh, we have had a— this is from the MCC regarding the pitch. Says, aware there's a lot of pitch chat currently, so keen to share the pitch action plan. They've got a pitch action plan, guys, okay? And it's, it's mostly management speak, so I'm not going to bore you with all of it, but it comes under the headings of things like engagement of external expertise. If I was the ground staff, I would be a bit jittery about that because—

I know a bit about that. I bumped into Richard Robinson, the groundsman from Headingley, this morning, so he's been down having a look at the surface.

Well, it says independent specialists were identified and a program of site visits set up to conduct a thorough assessment of the square.

I think I know what Michael Hunt, the previous ground, might have said to have someone else poking around his square.

Well, I don't think it's in any kind of— I think it's just obviously at the moment you would say that Headley is possibly the best pitch in the country. It seems to have, uh, the best challenge for batters, bowlers. It's got good carry and pace, and I think that's sensible, isn't it, to get the ground staff down from the venue that seems to at the minute have the best pitch to say, okay, is there anything that you're noticing here that we could do, or is there anything that you do to your pitches that we could add to ours? I think that's a sensible move.

I think they also want us to understand that this shouldn't be seen in isolation. They say our ground is not alone in facing challenges around pitch preparation, and the executive have had productive conversations with their counterparts at other venues facing similar challenges.

Well, that's—

I think that's a fair point. I mean, the pitches have not anywhere actually been particularly good this summer. In Test matches.

Next point, an establishment of an agronomy advisory group.

Oh, can you explain that word please?

Agronomy, yes, it's a sort of technical term for horticulture really.

Soil.

Gastroenteritis.

It's gastroenteritis.

So they're bringing 4 to 6 leading experts with diverse skill sets and knowledge being set up to provide independent advice to the club's management. So they're acknowledging that this is a serious issue. There's investment in data-informed monitoring and analysis.

Is Andy involved in that?

I'd like to hope so. A phased pitch relaying program, and the thing that really caught my eye, permanent drop-in pitches. As set out in the MCC cricket strategy, the club is also investing in the design and manufacture of drop-in pitch trays for use at Lord's. So they are coming at it from a number of different angles. Do you Do you think it has reached a point, Jonathan, having watched lots and lots of Test cricket here at Lord's, that there's something of a crisis?

Well, it has changed. There's no question about that. I mean, I think we've been saying it changed, particularly ever since the outfield was made this very, very porous sandy stuff.

For the drainage.

Correct. And the water just goes straight through when it rains. But yes, which is great. But it also sucks all the water out of the square. It just takes it all with it, does it? And Lord's isn't alone. I mean, all the Test match grounds have got, have got these, um, this type of outfield now. And I think that has really added to the problem for the ground staff, in that if they keep that square wet, and, and which they have to do if it's draining away, if it suddenly gets a lot of wet weather as well, that, that compounds the issue for, for preparing pitches. I mean, I'm not a groundsman, but there's no doubt that the pitches here have changed. Um, they, they just have— the, the thing for me was that the New Zealand pitch here looked, at the time, I think Michael went out there with me, I think, with the toss, it just looked— what we described as looking like an old-fashioned hair transplant. It was like stuff had been planted in, you know. It looked really rough. It looked bad. This looked like a normal pitch. I mean, it had some grass on it, um, which given the weather and so on is not necessarily surprising, but at least it was even. It was It looks— it looked like a cricket pitch, whereas the other one didn't. And the first couple of days, I think it's played okay, hasn't it? I mean, it's done a little bit given the weather, uh, and certainly the first day you'd have expected the ball to have moved and seamed around. But what's happened here is really surprising. I'm not— it's not become a minefield, but it's suddenly behaved in a surprising fashion. You don't often see a ball seam more on the 3rd day than on the 2nd day, for instance. That doesn't really happen, does it?

That must just be be the atmospheric.

It would have to be.

Yeah, I mean, I think you've got to be— it might be this week. This has been a week where, you know, the clouds have been around, there's been moisture, so you'd expect—

each ball could be a different thing as well. So it might be that this particular ball is susceptible to swinging a lot, or whatever it may be. So there are— there's, there's a lot more to it than simply digging up the square. But isn't it interesting where, you know, drop-in pitches were viewed upon with such massive suspicion, uh, you know, just, just a few years ago? Kerry Packer introduced them, of course, for, for World Series, dropping them into AFL football grounds. Is there any way could get any cricket played. And here now at the headquarters of cricket, Lord's of all places, talking of using drop-in pitches. So that's, that's, that's a really interesting development.

It's, it's a problem around the world as well. I mean, if you look at some of the iconic venues, you look at the MCG, and we had a 2-day Test match. That was a pitch that I've never seen. Now, I've seen pitches where the ball has zipped around, but nothing like what we saw, you know, in the Boxing Day Test last time around. Sydney last couple of years has been a pitch that's not quite played.

Perth was lively.

Perth is the new stadium. That's a lively deckside.

They also have a new, a different ball though, don't they, as well?

So yeah, yeah, it's like a perfect storm happening in Australia, really. You know, I think it's, it's clearly— what I like is that, um, you know, they're gathering information from, uh, the expertise from different venues. I think that's— and I'm sure they've always done that. All the ground staff are very close across all the grounds across the UK. They, uh, will, will have a kind of, I'm sure, a WhatsApp group kind of communicating, and I think it's really good that they pass on information.

For them to have a pitch described as unsatisfactory, wasn't it? I think the New Zealand pitch, that'll shake them here, you know, they'll really feel that, you know, the Lord's described unsatisfactory, you know, that's not something that they've probably ever had before, so that will have rattled them.

Well, you know, you spend £20-30 million on a stand in the corner, there's no point in having that if you don't have No, absolutely. That you can watch for a few days. If it's going to be that you're spending all this money on the great surrounds of the stands and, you know, all the hospitality that comes with it here at Lord's, well, you know, if you're getting all that right but out in the middle, which is your bread and butter, you're not getting right, that's going to be a problem.

They're going to grow the drop-ins, aren't they, out on the nursery end, which people know here is the ground at the back where the nets are. That's where these drop-ins are going to ferry them through. And and drop them in, literally drop them into the main square. Interesting to watch the the television cameras will be down the first time that happens. It's quite an operation. I've seen it happen in New Zealand. Massive things come out in these trays.

Must weigh a ton.

Drop them in. Well, massive tons.

I don't think they carry them.

No, I'd like to.

But one thing, they will get it right here.

Yes, they will.

You know, they'll have a team of people that will know what they're doing, and over time they'll they will absolutely. I mean, they've got the they've got the funds to be able to put money into it as well. They will get it right.

Well, one person today who did— I'm not going to say master the conditions, but actually batted really well in them— is a man who probably was one of the most surprising selections for the squad, really. Dan Lawrence coming in as England's spin bowling all-rounder, and his position in the team is fairly precarious, Ramiz, of course, because Jacob Bethell could come back in, or you'd expect him to come back in, um, and he averages high 20s. Well, today Pick of the batters by a mile. Unbeaten on 50 off 66 balls, 6 fours, couple of sixes. He didn't get into his shell. He played very few false shots. It felt like he found a method on a very difficult surface with the ball seaming about. What was your assessment?

Yes, my assessment was that it was, um, you know, he saw freedom from him. There was a plan, uh, which was based on aggression, uh, and, uh, he didn't really play the, the conditions of the pitch. It was important Uh, from that point of view, for Pakistani batsmen, you know, if they come and bat, that's how you should be batting. You know, forget about the variations in the pitch. You've got to treat this as any other job and make sure that you watch the ball, which he did. And I think he was ultra-aggressive at times when the situation demanded him to be, because this is the kind of pitch where you need to slog a few, where you need to show a bit of ticker, common sense, good rotation of strike. We saw that. From him, it was a very, very good innings.

Yeah, I, I think if you look back to the Oval Test match against New Zealand, it was crying out for a Dan Lawrence selection that week. You know, someone that would, uh, bat in the middle on his home venue, 500s to date at that stage, playing great for Surrey. So I've really enjoyed the fact that Marcus North has brought him into this England team. Clearly they like his offspin as well. You know, you've seen a lot of his offspin at Surrey. He's a better offspinner than people Give him. I guess it's his action. Very weird action, but he's actually released better than he looks. His couple of overs that he bowled at Headley got nice drift, nice kind of dip. So I think they'll come in really handy in time for England. But what I like about his batting is he seems to read the game. So today he walked out there, he's on naught. He knew that Mohammed Abbas with a keeper stub bat was going to land it on that length. So he gambled and danced down. He got a bit fortunate, went down to third off the thick outside edge, but he read the play nicely. It was the right way to play. play at that moment. And he's clearly got a, a, a kind of quirky technique that has worked for him. So he's, he's very confident. He knows his, his scoring areas. Uh, that dance down and punt over extra cover was a Harry Brook style shot. And when you've got a, a player like Dan Lawrence who's in full confidence, uh, he's clearly a better player than when he played for England last time. And when he opened the bat and we all were like, oh no, that's just not fair.

Yeah.

Not fair on him. I, I think he's a, a really good selection. And I think he's going to have a period in the England side that we're going to enjoy watching him bat. I think he's one of those players that you look down, quite enjoy watching Dan Lawrence bat. And I think in time, I think his offspin is going to come in very handy indeed.

Just a quick thing on Lawrence. Previously in his Test career and in his first-class career, had a much, much better record against spin than pace. And in this series, which has been dominated by seamers, 75 runs without being dismissed from 123 balls that he's faced from From Pakistan's seamers. So he's, yeah, just been out once to a bowler, scored 118 runs, had that run out in the first innings, but a good return.

Um, other than that, there weren't too many other England batting performances to get too excited about. Harry Brook made 34 before he was caught by Mohammad Rizwan standing up. There's a decent catch from the, the keeper Rameez, and you know, it's a plan that's been working in keeping Harry Brook honest and deep in his crease, and that It picked up the wicket.

Yeah, it's difficult pitch for the keeper also because the ball is staying low and rearing from the length as well. And so, and he had won a few, Rizwan, behind the stumps, uh, yet carried on. It was really a smart catch because he rose with the, with the height of the ball and took it quite neatly.

I mean, he was brave today actually. I mean, in a truncated day, every time I looked up, I just saw him On the ground, then trying to stop balls that are kept low or ones that are risen high. I mean, he took off his glove at one point. You saw his every single finger had tape and stuff on it.

He's he's a bit of a fighter, actually.

I like Mohammad Rizwan because he's got a lot to offer, and he'll not flinch away. So he'll take up the task and and be in that difficult situation for Pakistan. He's quite a few wonderful innings over the years, especially in subcontinent conditions. But these conditions will challenge every Pakistani, including Rizwan. But his keeping was outstanding, actually. There was a lot of query, question mark regarding whether he's fit enough to take the gloves because he was struggling in the last series. But, uh, here I think he's really done well.

And they actually need somebody to have a bit of fight and mongrel and a bit of noise in them because they're a sort of anonymous team. It's not just about the sort of pedestrian nature of the skills that are on show. It's just there's no— where's the character?

Yeah, body language and all. Yeah, absolutely. You've got to take pride in, in playing Test cricket for your country, and we didn't see that. I didn't see that. I mean, it's a very, very unusual way of playing the game. Pakistan have always been renowned for a bit of fight and feistiness and taking the game to the opposition. We haven't seen that at all in this series.

Before we finish our wrap-up, Andy Saltzman's alongside us. I don't suppose today was, was one that really got your statistical juices flowing, did it?

No, not, not, uh, not really, other than, you know, continuing this trend of wickets tumbling on this, uh, on this ground at a pretty much historically unprecedented, uh, unprecedented rate. Those deviation stats we were talking about, looking at the overs 21 to 50 in Tests England, um, there's never been a match with more lateral movement for the seamers, and we've seen increasingly inconsistent bounce. And in fact, Pakistan's bowlers have extracted more movement in the second innings than they did in, in the first. So yeah, the pitch has not eased at all. If anything, it's got more difficult in terms of that lateral movement. Um, so yeah, but not, not a lot statistically. Yeah, I thought England batted about as well as you could do and still lost 3 wickets for, for 80-odd.

3 or 4, wasn't it?

No, it was 4 in the end.

Yeah, so I mean, yeah, there's— you'd have to say England did pretty well. If they, if they're batting well and getting 80-odd for 4, then you sort of fear—

Well, it's gonna be difficult for Pakistan. So things to look out for in their innings, um, since the 19th century there's only been 2 teams that have been bowled out in under 50 overs in 4 consecutive innings. Oh, happened to Bangladesh in 2018 and Sri Lanka in 2016. Including 3 innings in their series against England here. Um, so that's something for Pakistan to try to avoid. And that's that 30-year gap since their last 50 opening stand. Uh, looking at the conditions, it might be a miracle if they can break that.

So in the absence of a stat of the day, you're anticipating a stat of tomorrow?

Uh, I am, yes. Yeah.

Well, that's great. That's great.

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

So let's get some reaction. Alison Mitchell has been speaking with Dan Lawrence.

Dan, well batted, an on-off day. With the lead you've got now though, you're in a strong position to win the match Yeah, absolutely.

It was, it was a tricky day sort of coming on for half an hour, 40-minute intervals. But yeah, overall decent day and the lead looks pretty big now.

How did you manage to pace your innings today for your 50?

Well, I saw the ball was doing quite a lot off the wicket, so I was always going to try and be quite aggressive today. There were certain spells I tried to get through like Abbas, and I was just hoping for a bit of luck and thankfully I got some. And then I knew I had to gamble a few times and thankfully a few of the shots paid off.

Was there a sense of try to get onto the front foot for those couple of sixes, say, and score quickly when, you know, a ball could do anything?

Yeah, it was more just trying to catch their bowlers off guard a little bit, play normally, and then kind of jump out my bunker every now and then. Yeah, again, it was one of those surfaces where it was pretty tricky to try and survive on all day. So it was, so it was one of them where you just had to take a couple of punts and thankfully they paid off.

Was Amelia Gay a bit unlucky?

Yeah, I mean, he played beautifully last night. Emilio fought really hard for the team and sort of took a little bit of the shine off the ball for us. I think sometimes in cricket you just can't help that. I don't think anyone in the world's hitting that ball and hopefully gets the luck next week.

2 years out of the Test side for you since you've come back in. How different does it feel?

Yeah, it's obviously pretty different with a different coach and a few different faces around the group. It's been a great atmosphere this week and when the last week as well. The boys are really enjoying it and yeah, hopefully we can cap off tomorrow with a nice win.

And what's sort of the messaging for you batting at number 6 and what's your understanding of your role?

Well, it's a bit more of a familiar role for me. I bat middle order for my county Surrey. Yeah, I mean, it's just play how I've been playing all summer. I've been in really good form for Surrey and I've come into this Test series with quite a bit of confidence, so I was obviously a bit gutted that I gave it away last week at Headingley, and I'm glad to have contributed today.

Going into tomorrow then, big chance. Do you believe the bowling attack can take 10 wickets in a day? It will take a bit of weather.

Yeah, I think so. I mean, all 4 of them are in brilliant form. They've bowled beautifully throughout the series individually. I think first of all, we've got to try and eke out as many runs as possible in the morning and try and take the game to Pakistan a little bit. And then I think if they bowl to their potential, our boys, I think, I think we can get it done tomorrow. Yeah.

Good luck, thanks.

Well played today.

Thank you, cheers.

One of the big talking points has been the trend of wicketkeepers standing up to the stumps, with Jamie Smith showing some impressive skills. He's been working with England's assistant coach, the legendary World Cup and Ashes-winning wicketkeeper Sarah Taylor. Taylor has been speaking to Isha Guha about the work she's been doing with Jamie Smith, but first Isha asked how much she is enjoying her role with the England men's team.

I've absolutely loved it. Obviously came as a little bit of a shock, um, But absolutely jumped at the chance as soon as I was asked, and the boys have made it unbelievable. It's just a great experience really, and I'm learning a lot. I'm still very young in my coaching career, but yeah, it's been a pretty good summer.

You're looking very relaxed on the balcony, I have to say, watching on after obviously being involved as a player. I was very fortunate to play alongside you, but this is a very different environment for yourself. Let's talk about the keeping because a lot of Attention has been focused on Jamie Smith and him standing up to the stumps. Obviously, you did it a lot in your career. You were the best at it. What have you noticed in his game that, you know, you've been working with him on, and how often has he done it previously?

I don't think he has done it that much previously. So this was obviously a little bit of a shock come this summer where the surfaces actually Almost told him to go and stand up to the stumps, but we've worked extremely hard. Every training session we've had, he's been doing keeping, and standing up has obviously become a little bit more prevalent now. So in terms of kind of technical stuff, I mean, he's an extremely good keeper. He's got an excellent pair of hands. So it was just a case of enhancing what he already had and keeping him slightly more still than what he used to. The direction of which he faces was slightly open, and I think we've gone a little bit more down the wicket. So there's just a couple of things that we've tinkered with. It's nothing major, I promise you. It is just more consistency in what he's doing. Yeah, just that, that push to try and do some form of standing up every single session that we do. And again, he's, he's the one that's pushed it, so he's working extremely hard and, yeah, reaping all the benefits out there.

Well, you can tell us because you did it so much. What are you looking at behind the stumps? What is important to you in terms of that, that being able to take those catches and having that reflex and that instinct, I guess, behind the stumps?

I think for me, I think if the head's still, then the hands are in, in a good position to catch the ball. If the ball's moving left and right and up and down, I think you, you have to be then as still as possible. And yeah, Jamie's worked extremely hard at that. But also, I think he's also 6'4. I'm 5 foot 2, so you have to, um, almost use what you've got. Um, he has got a slightly wider stance than most because he can, which means he can access the leg side a little bit more, which is nice. Um, but again, I can't harp on enough about how to stay extremely still and just trust your hands. Just absolutely trust your hands and assume that you will catch it, and then hopefully you'll be nice and aggressive with it.

Come on then, while we've got you. Oh yeah, no, come on. Um, you're gonna have to have the mic Close to your mouth as you get down. But if you can just— if the camera can just go on you, come on, just show us the kind of position you get yourself into.

I'm doing this right now, am I? Yes. No. So obviously I would personally set up with my left foot for a right-handed batter on— there was the traditional that it was off stump. It's going a little bit more leg stump just because obviously then your head is over off stump or just outside that kind of 4th stump line, which is actually what we ask the bowlers to bowl to. So actually you might as well just be there. So that's how I would set up keepers nowadays. And also you are now generally a lot more towards the leg side. So that is again another benefit and a little bit of a cheat code. And then obviously with the ball moving, you can't move your head that quick either. So it's trusting that your hands can go. So if you're nice and aggressive and attack on angles. You are more likely to catch it if the ball moves, but you have to trust your hands. So I haven't actually got in any position that you needed me to be, which is probably a good thing. But ultimately, that kind of middle to leg, leg stump is where that left foot should start, really.

Because that's something I would say about you. You were so good with your hands. You get into position, but then you had the instinct to just move your hands to the right position. And what I'm seeing with Jamie Smith, obviously it's tough facing 80-mile-an-hour bowling. It's quick. How difficult is it here at Lord's, especially with the slope, with the uneven bounce that we've seen? And how does he judge it to be able to get his hands in the right position?

So I think, well, ultimately, because it is so quick, a lot of the times you can't actually look at the ball. You have to look at an area in front of you and then trust that your hands are going to get there. I'd love to say it's this massively technical thing. It is pure trust and the skill of that wicketkeeper at the time. Everyone does it differently as well. But in terms of what I've said previously about staying as still as you possibly can and then being really, really aggressive with the angle that you catch the ball. Because obviously if you catch it behind you, the deviation essentially should be a little bit more. But if you catch it at an angle and you're aggressive with that, it in theory should be a lot closer to you. So yeah, that is ultimately wicketkeeping.

And what is the expectation for him? Because, you know, it's not easy and, you know, it's coming down at Well, 80 miles an hour, and he's having to judge the bounce. Sometimes we've seen uneven bounce here at Lord's, that the slope's been quite tricky. What is the expectation if he does miss something or it doesn't quite go in as he wants it to?

I mean, look, given that, um, where he was at the start of the summer, I'm not saying the expectation is, is low at all whatsoever, but I'm expecting him to, to take them all. But I'm very aware that that is also not possible. He's human. And also this is a project for him and he's been working extremely hard and yeah, he will not get it right. And he knows that. And ultimately you look at it quite factually. Why did he miss that? What did he do wrong? Rather than, I guess, being annoyed that he's probably missed it. But ultimately he's doing a service to the bowlers when he's standing up. And I think I mentioned it yesterday, just to enhance the skill of the bowlers by standing up and keeping the batsman in the crease. That is ultimately what he's there to do. And yeah, well, catch it, I suppose.

I'm sure you're a great sounding board for him. What about when he's standing back then? What are the things that you've seen that maybe none of us would have noticed?

He's just moving slightly more. He's generally moving slightly more sideways. Body position just more down the wicket. He was slightly open before and more aggressive. You'll know me when it came to my keeping, I like to be extremely aggressive, whether that's stood up or back. And, and that's now what he's giving. So there's slightly more energy in what he's doing, um, creating better angles in how he catches it, um, and ultimately, hopefully, a lot more consistency, uh, with the repetition of doing what he's doing all the time. So he's doing really well. Um, yeah, you're right, a lot of people probably don't notice the difference in the changes, but we certainly do on the balcony. And yeah, we're just really proud of all the hard work that he's put in.

You talk about energy there. You were quite a vocal keeper, happy to have a few words. He's not so much that. Are you expecting him to be a bit more vocal out on the field?

No, because it's not his personality. You can't change someone's personality. I think actually what you want from him is the energy to come from him in terms of his body movements, how he's running into the stumps and catching the ball. He's asking for the ball all the time. I think that's a lot more important than potentially some words that come out of his mouth. And that has definitely changed. He's a lot more energetic and he's just putting in a hard shift for the team that, again, he has absolutely pushed himself.

What have you learned about yourself as a coach?

Threw that question in there. What have I learned about myself as a coach? I'm a lot more patient than I thought I was. I think you come into these environments thinking that you should know everything because of your experience and what you did and how you did it and the coaches that you've learned from throughout your career. But you don't. We're all still evolving. We're all still learning. Even the coaches up there that have been coaching for a very long time are all still learning and the game's developing. And given the fact that we're not playing, we have to learn from the players. So yeah, it's actually been quite nice because you do fret. You think, I hope I know enough. But actually I'm learning, I'm evolving as a coach and there's still plenty to come, hopefully.

You've been part of high-performance environments across your career, you know, Ashes winner, World Cup winner. What's the difference being in the men's environment?

I don't know if there's too much of a difference. I think I'm essentially just coaching the player, and I think that's how it always has to be, whether it's a men's environment or a female environment. Like you say, I'm lucky enough to do other franchise stuff and learning from a lot of the coaches and a lot of the players, but ultimately I've clicked with Jamie, and that's amazing. That doesn't happen often, but I am genuinely coaching the player, whether it's— I've had the luck I've been able to work with players like Beth Mooney and Richard Gosch, who's unbelievable. And yeah, so I'm just extremely lucky at the minute. And to be fair, nothing's really different. It is purely the personality and yeah, the cricket.

It's great to see you doing it and thriving as well. What's next for Sarah Taylor?

That is a great question. I have absolutely no idea. I would love to do this for as long as I possibly can, obviously work with Jamie and then get to work work with, with Joss in the white ball stuff, but we shall see.

Let's not forget as well, you're an unbelievable batter.

I do forget. I even forget that I bat here.

Are they coming to you for tips on batting as well?

It's not necessarily tips, but more just the conversations that you have around— you feel freely to talk to them about it, and then they're happy to— they want to talk as well. So what did you do when you do this? What'd you do when you played here? And those conversations are great because It does remind me that I did used to bat, but it's, yeah, they just want to talk cricket, and that's what's been the beauty of this changing room, that they love the game so much. But yeah, batting is— I mean, I would love to be batting out there again. Not today, but it's something that I do forget that I did. But the conversations have been very good.

Well, I can vouch for you. You were a safe pair of hands behind the stumps. It was an absolute pleasure being able to bowl and knowing you were there. Um, so I'm sure it's going to be the same for Jamie as he evolves as a wicketkeeper. But it's been just really great to chat to you, and, um, so great to see you doing what you're doing.

That's Sarah Taylor. Subscribe so you don't miss our podcasts, including The View from the Boundary with John Sopel. And don't miss highlights on BBC iPlayer.

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