England in the groove ahead of the T20 World Cup

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello and welcome to the Test Match Special Podcast. This is Henry Moran as we build up towards the Women's T20 World Cup getting underway on June 12th. During this episode, we're going to assess England's chances. We've seen them play in two series building up to the competition against good opponents as well— New Zealand, the world champions, India going into the tournament surely as one of the favorites. So where are England in all of this? We'll see if we can work it all out and discover exactly what England need to do, where it might be won and lost, and what we can expect from what promises to be a carnival of cricket. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Well, with me to run the rule over, uh, what we've got to look forward to over the next few weeks, two people that have seen the good, the bad, and the downright disastrous of English cricket in the last couple of years, uh, in the women's game. You were both there on that Ashes tour, 16-nil and all that. Alex Hartley, a World Cup winner when the World Cup was here last in 2017, albeit the 50-over format. Fionn Wynne, whose writing covered all of that series down under and much else in between as well. Uh, lovely to see you both. Uh, we've seen two series now. We're building up to the World Cup. Uh, there's been good moments, there have been bad moments. Where, Fionn, first of all, do you think England are?

I think we've all kind of learned our lessons from the last T20 World Cup 2 years ago, where in the home summer England thrashed everyone. They played Pakistan, New Zealand, and, uh, we were all very complimentary, we were all very full of confidence, and then we saw how that unraveled with the group stage exit against West Indies, which nobody saw coming, and everything kind of unraveled from there. Um, and that— this summer started kind of similarly, a pretty comfortable series win against New Zealand, but we knew that the test was going to be against India. Um, and I think England have showed glimpses of what they can do at their best. The bowling lineup in particular looks in very good order, particularly in the spin department, and Lauren Bell She's almost going under the radar really with how consistent she is with the new ball. Uh, we don't really notice her performances, that's how reliable she has become. But there are definitely still question marks around that batting lineup. Of course, we're expecting Nat Sciver-Brunt to come back in and captain, so I think they're in a pretty good spot. I think, um, you know, we knew that India was going to be the toughest challenge, and we've seen that from, you know, what they can do in that first T20 in Chelmsford. They're destructive as anyone on their day.

Indeed. And we'll get on to the, the third and final match at Taunton during the second half of the podcast. And Alex, building up to a World Cup, uh, it's quite hard to know where England are. I mean, certainly they feel further forward as a side in the, in the evolution of the Charlotte Edwards leadership.

Yeah, I would definitely think so. It feels, it feels like they have come on. It feels like everybody knows their roles. Obviously Dani Gibson and Freya Kemp being back in amongst the team make a huge difference. She doesn't really know her 11. I think she's got a couple of warm-up games against India and Australia where, you know, if Nat Sciver-Brunt's back fit and she has to play those games, if she's going to play the opening game of the World Cup against Sri Lanka on the 12th of June, then she has to play the warm-up games for me to try and get some time under, you know, time out on the field. I think she's good enough to go out there straight away, but just to test her fitness levels. But going back to the previous World Cup in Dubai, I think their fielding's come on leaps and bounds. They've been really impressive at times in the field throughout the two series that we've seen. Um, so yeah, I think, I think they're in a better place.

I mean, that is the sort of the point though, isn't it, Fionn? That, yeah, the Nat Sciver-Brunt question is a really interesting one from England's point of view because they've had lots of questions and, and potential sort of options as we've gone through the opening series of the, of the summer. But there's always the specter that Nat Sciver-Brunt comes back in because she's good, she's the captain, she's the best player. And I suppose it's not just testing the fitness, as Alex says, but it's also testing the dynamic of the team who's been led by Charlie Dean.

Yeah, and it's really actually a significant headache for Charlotte Edwards because we know that Nat is going to come back in and we know that she's going to be captain and batting in the top order, but the entire balance of the team depends on her and whether she can bowl. So the players that have got question marks over them in terms of being in the starting 11, uh, you would say Freya Kemp and Dani Gibson— can you play both all-rounders? You think just based on the past few series that Charlotte Edwards really does want to, um, because they're both electric in the field, they both whack it at the death, and they can both bowl really handy overs. And Freya Kemp is left-handed, and we know how much England have been craving one of those in their lineup. Alice Capsie, she is probably the batting question mark, but then she had that brilliant innings of 70-odd against New Zealand in the first T20. Yes, it's been been a little quieter since. Sophia Dunkley needs a score, um, at the top of the order. She's got a higher score of 26 this, uh, before the third T20. We know that Nat can play as a specialist batter, um, but if she can't bowl, then that does make things even trickier.

I think it might make things more simple. I think if Nat doesn't bowl, either Dunkley or Knight don't play for me, really.

Yeah.

I mean, an England team going into a World Cup tournament without Heather Knight in the XI is a big thing, isn't it?

I don't think it'll happen. I don't think it should happen. I think you need the experience. And yes, she's not had a— she's only had that 18 off 13 balls in the last game where she's had a strike rate of above 100. She's really struggled. But I think when it comes to World Cups, you need that experience. But it depends if they want to go with both batters are out of touch really when it comes to Dunkley and Knight. So it's not like Dunkley's banging the door down saying, hang on a minute, I'm going at 180, you've got to pick me. It's, it's a toss-up, and between the two, you— I would go with the experience.

Yeah, I think you can't put a price on that during a World Cup tournament.

I think Sophia Dunkley's role at the top of the order is very clear, that she goes on to take on the power play, and England are very aware that, you know, there are definitely going to be times where that doesn't come off. But she's one of very few batters in England's lineup that regularly hit sixes. And I say regularly, it's not even that regular, but it is an area where they, you know, are quite far behind. And Heather Knight isn't a six-hitter. She's, you know, she can— yes, she can score at a strike rate of above 100, and as we saw in the last couple years, she has really transformed her T20 game and kept up, you know, the pace. I think in the middle order, that's where things do start to get a bit tricky, and we've seen England in a few situations where they just get a bit bogged down. Um, when Heather Knight and Maya Boucher were batting together, um, in a couple of the T20s against New Zealand, you could see them just bit unsure when to stick or twist and whether to go harder. And I do think that England could be a little bit more flexible if they do pick Danny Gibson and Freya Kemp. They could be a little bit more— do a bit more juggling with those two in the middle order. So if you get off to a flyer and you've got 6 overs to go and you lose a wicket, can you send in one of those two? And if you lose a flurry and you need to accumulate— and also depending on the conditions, Heather Knight goes in. Heather Knight goes in. I think that is an area where England could just be a little bit more proactive.

Yeah, I think bravery is an easier word to say than it is to act out. And sometimes we've heard England be a little bit, uh, sort of more, more chat and less, um, and less doing. I think it's fair to say, uh, bowling-wise, they look a really strong unit. I think, I think England look like they've, um, that they've got bases covered and then some. And, uh, and that, that feels like their stronger suit.

Al? Yeah, I've said for a while now, I don't worry about the bowling. You know, they've— Lauren Phyllis not played the game in this T20 series in the lead-up to the World Cup. So, you know, you've got Lauren Bell with the ball now, swinging the ball away, working back on that in-swinger as well, looking for a few more variations. Lindsay Smith with her left arm spin in towards the right-handers, the most skiddy in-swing bowler. You've got Sophie Ecclestone, uh, who no longer is the world's number one bowler. It's Lindsay Smith who's pipped better than that one. But I think England have got 3 out of the top 5.

I mean, it's pretty good going.

Yeah, yeah. I think the performance at Bristol in the second T20 against India was England's blueprint of the kind of perfect bowling performance. Lauren Bell got, you know, Shafali Verma got after her a little bit. That's gonna happen. She did the same to Lindsay Smith, um, that is going to happen against the best teams. It's going to happen in T20 cricket, um, but the way that the spinners bowled in tandem in the middle order Sophie Axton and Charlie Dean, and then Lindsay Smith and the power play. Their role clarity is absolutely spot on, and I think that plays a huge part in the confidence of a bowler, knowing exactly what the captain expects of you. Yes, Nat Sciver-Brunt is going to come in as captain, but you would imagine that the kind of philosophy would be kind of similar. I think the pace bowling, aside from Lauren Bell, um, has tendencies to be a little bit expensive at times. Izzy Wong struggled at Chelmsford against—

she brought it back so well.

She did recover really well, just in terms of But it did show that one big over can really swing momentum in the game.

But I think Izzy Wong could be your middle overs and your death bowler, not your opening bowler. And I think that's how you'd still play Lindsay Smith as well, potentially. Um, I think the headache from the bowling lineup, or the bowling attack, sorry, is a tougher headache for Lottie to have because everybody is capable of playing. Where with the batting, I think it, it pretty much sorts itself out.

Fielding-wise and in terms of a unit as a ruthless winning machine that Charlotte Edwards tends to create with Southern Vipers, Mumbai Indians, one thing and another, it feels to me that England have much more steely qualities than they did and have done in recent years.

Time will tell though, won't it, when they're under pressure, when they're in a World Cup semi-final and it's a packed out oval or wherever it may be that they're playing. But yes, they are definitely showing signs and fundamental signs that they are more confident out there in the middle. They're making unbelievable stops and unbelievable saves, and they are looking like the England that we, we see at training all the time, but we don't see on the field. We are now starting to see those standards out in the middle as well.

They do still have their moments where when a batter takes the attack to them, we saw when Sophie Devine took the attack to them at Canterbury, things did start to you know, those errors started to creep in. Um, same thing happened at Chelmsford. There are a few misfields going through the legs, and that can happen to any team under pressure. We saw it happen to Australia in the World Cup semi-final in the 50-over tournament against India. They completely lost the plot pretty much. So it can happen to anyone on, on their day. But I agree, in terms of once the, once the pressure is on, that's why we were saying we can't really read a huge amount into that New Zealand series. And having these warm-up games against India and Australia, it's going to be huge because we know that those are the two teams where England have fallen short in the past.

And it justifies the tournament describing itself as being in England and Wales.

Exactly.

There you go. Right, we'll be reflecting on England's series win against India that backed up their series victory against New Zealand shortly. But don't forget, every ball of every game of the upcoming Women's T20 World Cup will be available on BBC Sounds and the best of the action on the BBC Sport website. And app as well. This is the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So England win, and it is some win as well. 6 wickets the margin in the end, set that target of 181, which at the halfway stage seemed improbable. Be a record in terms of, of run chase for T20 Internationals in this country. And not just that, but also the fact that England were 38 for 3 early on in their innings. But A partnership that came together with England rocking has been absolutely the winning formula for England, with 110 runs scored in boundaries across the innings, 3 sixes, 23 fours, and Alice Capsie and Heather Knight putting together the sort of partnership which wins games of cricket. 137 runs off just 76 deliveries. Capsy eventually out for 82, Knight unbeaten at the end there on 70, both scoring comfortably more than a run a ball and, uh, leaving India shell-shocked. And England with the series won by 2 matches to 1. We'll be hearing from the England camp in the not-too-distant future, but alongside me, World Cup winner Alex Hartley and, uh, BBC Sport cricket writer Fionn Wynn as well. I think it's fair to say at the halfway stage we thought probably, Alex, that this was more India's game than England's, but goodness, they played well.

Yeah, I definitely thought England would have to do something special to chase that target down. I gave them, you know, I said India are in control of this game at the halfway stage purely for the stats and the facts of everything that's happened before. You know, England have lost 10 of 11 games where they're chasing more than 150, so you know, the probability was that, you know, they weren't going to chase it down. But Alice Capsie and Heather Knight, both of them absolutely outstanding. But when Alice Capsie came to the crease, Henry, and the way she was timing the ball, hitting the ball in the gaps, and just the, the pace that she found the boundary, um, you knew she was on today.

Fionn, is that as well as we've seen Alice Capsie play?

For me personally, yeah. I think, you know, we've spoken for so long about her talent and her potential from when she really kind of burst onto the scene in The Hundred as a teenager. And after that, it was probably— it probably was a little bit underwhelming from her in terms of how she, you know, navigated international cricket. I think a lot of the time we forgot how young she was because we just came to expect really brilliant things from her almost straight away. And the potential was never in doubt. It was more being able to play a match situation and the maturity to, you know, to when to attack and when to defend and when to consolidate. But what you can see in her now is a real smartness in her game and she knows her options, she knows her strength. Tonight, hitting down the ground, we know that that's where she— in contrast to Heather Knight, who sweeps and paddles— she's so strong hitting straight, and she nailed those shots today. India's spinners in particular had absolutely no answers to her. So I think in terms of, yeah, just how she knows her game, the maturity and the confidence to back her strengths, um, is a huge tick in her box. And really pleasing for Charlotte Edwards as well. You'd have thought in terms of players sticking their hands up. And we want— we've been saying for ages that England need more competition for places. They've, they've got that in abundance now.

You talk about how her age— she's still not 22.

It's terrifying.

Amazing, isn't it? And it's just a little reminder that there is talent and depth in this England side that, uh, that perhaps previous tournaments haven't seen them heading towards with quite that competition for places. Just to put into context, the successful run chase in this country. It's not their highest ever, but it is their second highest. And the only one higher was back in 2018 in Mumbai at a ground where run scoring was plentiful and easier than perhaps it would be in this country. But 181, the target, and they chased it down with, within the end, relative ease to get over the line with still 9 balls left. Second highest score by an England batter at number 4 or lower in T20s, behind Heather Knight's 108 not out against Thailand in 2020. And, uh, it is an absolutely outstanding performance in that run chase, you have to say. And it leads them towards the World Cup, Alex, filled with confidence. And that is— that's a huge thing going into a tournament.

Absolutely. I think, you know, it will give them so much confidence today, uh, knowing that they have got that firepower and they, they can clear the boundary when needed and they can manipulate the field. It's it's felt a little bit sticky at times. And I think watching, it's been quite frustrating because, you know, players are capable of doing what Freya Kemp did at Bristol, what Alice Capsie has done today, what Heather Knight has done today. But England hadn't managed to piece that together. They're not being able to bowl well, bat well, field well all at the same time. But today, chasing that 181 to win, I mean, Alice Capsie just made it look so easy. And yes, India's strength is within their batting, and I feel like India were short of where they should have been or could have been. Um, but still, they've not got an awful bowling attack, India. They've still got some brilliant bowlers.

Fionn, we heard a lot from England about being brave. Felt like they were brave tonight?

Yeah, absolutely. They lost those 3 early wickets, and you know, I think in the past England probably would have, you know, consolidated for a bit and maybe thought, well, let's just knock it around, build a platform, and then, you know, kick on. But what was so impressive from Alice Captain Heather Knight was they weren't thinking, okay, well, we'll set this up and then leave it for the, you know, middle to lower order. They were— they took the responsibility themselves. And yes, India were on top with the ball after the power play. England's run rate was healthy, but they had lost those 3 wickets. But it showed what can happen to a bowling attack and to a fielding unit if you are proactive. And if you put them under pressure— and they did that. They didn't do anything particularly complicated. They put the bad ball away, but the way they ran between the wickets was really impressive. The intent that they had to put India's fielders under pressure, taking on the arm, um, they really, you know, made sure that they got the job done. And yes, Alice Capsie fell late, but her reaction, how gutted she looked, showed, you know, that there is that determination to be the one to do it at the end, to be there as the last person standing. So yeah, it was hugely impressive. And India, you know, their bowling really did struggle when they were under the pump. The full tosses were creeping in, they were bowling short, um, their plans were changing, they were changing the field all the time. Um, and you know, we've seen that happen to England quite a lot, we've seen it happen to lots of teams. But I think it was really encouraging for England to show, yes, if you lose a few early wickets, it— you know, there are going to be times where you do need to consolidate, but when you've got a good pitch and, you know, you know what you need to do to chase 180, they've shown that they've got it in them.

Alex, doing the look like a team of winners more than they have done going to previous tournaments?

Uh, no, they've always had the capability of winning, but capability not necessarily.

I'm focusing more on mentality.

We don't know yet, do we? Because, you know, they've not played a World Cup since the last World Cup where they weren't very good. Um, so I actually, I actually don't know, but I think that the fact that they had the confidence to go and play in the way they did today, that their mindset probably will have changed. And performing under pressure has been something that they've needed to work on, and they obviously have done. You know, Charlotte Edwards has come in and, and changed things. And look, I don't think England would have chased that 2 years ago. I really— a year ago, um, I really don't. Um, but yes, it's brilliant that they they got the win. But do they go into this World Cup more confident than any other team? I'm not sure.

We were full of, you know, we were all very confident about England going in in 2024, um, and that was really kind of the moment when the, the questions around them doing it under pressure started to creep in because we had the narrative of them thrashing lower-ranked sides in the summer, and then as soon as it got to a knockout— it wasn't a knockout, but theoretically a knockout situation, um, it all fell apart. But, you know, a series decider against India, 50-over World Champions, is this— it's probably outside of Van Ashes, this is probably as close as you are going to get to, you know, that kind of pressure and that kind of situation. Um, and they've responded to that pretty well here. I think all they can do at this point is, is take the positives from that, uh, into the World Cup where they do have a pretty easy group. It has to be said, they, they absolutely should be cruising into the semi-finals at least of that World Cup, and then we'll see what happens depending on who they come up against if they get there.

What about the bowling, Alex? Because we've felt that that was England's strong suit going into this tournament. Ecclestone again has done a very good job. She also affected a brilliant run out and then missed one of the worst you've ever seen. It was a real comedy moment. The, uh, at the end of the innings. Uh, anyhow, Lindsay Smith, Lauren Bell again continuing to do well, Charlie Dean and Danni Gibson. So no Freya Kemp in the final match of the series, but it does feel like there's a balance to England's side.

Yeah, I feel like their bowling attack's really well balanced. You know, Tilly Courtine-Coleman on the sidelines along with Izzy Wong if they want a bit of extra pace, and Lauren Phyllis. They've got so many options with the ball. I think they've got a world-class bowling attack. You know, if Lindsay Smith is now the best in the world, Sophie Ecclestone, um, still for me the best bowler in the world. Um, yeah, I think they've got all bases covered. And as you say, no Freya Kemp today. She will be managing her workloads, I have no doubt, throughout the, the T20 World Cup. Um, and then maybe a little bit of Nat Sciver-Brunt thrown in there as well. So they've got a wealth of options.

How are they going to fit Nat Sciver-Brunt into the side field?

Yeah, there's, you know, we've never doubted that she comes straight back in, even if she is just playing as a batter. She's— there's never, you know, been a question around that. She will also come back in as captain. But that, again, that's the point about how Alice Capsia shows. She's played one fantastic innings opening, and she's played one fantastic innings at number 4. Um, so, you know, she probably is going to have to move around, uh, for— to accommodate for Nat Sciver-Brunt, whether that's going up to the top of the order, maybe in place of a struggling Sophia Dunkley. Could she go to 3 and Amy Jones goes back to number 6? There are plenty of options, but she showed that, that she can do it and that she can be versatile. So I— yeah, we are expecting Nat Sciver-Brunt to come straight back in.

Yeah, she will do, unless there's an obvious injury. She will be heading back into that side, and it's a side that have got a couple of warm-up matches and good tests as well— Australia and then India again ahead of the tournament.

It's a relentless schedule. They meet up on Saturday in Cardiff and then they play on the 8th and the 10th, and the tournament kicks off on the 12th. So they'll have a bit of momentum running into that first game as well. A little bit of a break now, but not, not too long for the, for the team. But yeah, give them great confidence leading into the World Cup. But two tough warm-up games.

Sophia Dunkley has struggled just a little bit— 16 in this game, 10 the previous match. 16 the match before. So little flourishes, but not more than that.

Yeah, I think her place is under scrutiny for, for the World Cup, and it will be questioned at the top of the order, especially with Alice Capsie showing her versatility like Fionn's just been saying. Um, it'll be a tough choice for Charlotte Edwards and the coaching staff, Nat Siverbrunt, Charlie Dean, to, to make into that World Cup of who misses out. But a good batter is going to miss out, but at the moment everything looks towards Sophia, Sophia Dunkley.

Yeah, Fionn.

Yeah, it's a difficult one. She's got— she hasn't got the easiest job in terms of— we know her role is to take on the power play and to, um, to capitalize in those first 6 overs. Um, she has got the familiarity— well, she has had the familiarity of Dani White-Hodge at the other end for the past couple of games, which hasn't made a huge amount of difference. But yeah, a top score of 26 in these 6 innings. Hasn't been a great return for her, and I think the predictability of some of her dismissals has been a shame. Um, being— she'll hit a couple of boundaries and we're saying she's looking fantastic, she's back to her best, and then sky one to long on or mid-off and we're thinking, oh. So it's just quite frustrating to watch her sometimes.

Well, I think the difference between Dunkley and Capsey is Capsey plays the ball on its merit, and Dunkley is quite, um, which she tries to manipulate the ball and tries to manufacture the ball a little bit more. And Alice Capsie, yes, when Dunkley's on, it works because she hits the ball into peculiar areas, she opens up angles that nobody else can. But Alice Capsie playing the ball on its merit, proving and showing that tonight, um, for me, just pips her.

Yeah, I think that's fair enough. I think it has been a sort of performance from, from Capsie and Knight which gives confidence to the whole side. And, uh, and also gives a suggestion, uh, that, you know, there are players really in form with a sense of absolute purpose and confidence. Do you know what I mean by that?

It's—

there's a— there was a steely look in the eye of Alice Capsie tonight.

Yeah, there was. But she'll back herself, you know. She scored runs against New Zealand and, um, she's— she's looked good throughout.

Yeah, right. Let's hear from the England captain then. Charlie Dean has been speaking to Melissa Story.

I'm here with Charlie Dean, England captain. First of all, Charlie, congratulations! What a game! It was the highest successful women's T20 International run chase in England. You must be very proud of that performance.

Um, yeah, it was sensational. Um, Caps and Heather, um, yeah, they really brought it home for us. And, um, yeah, it was such a great win. Um, you know, we, we thought They were probably like around par, but maybe we let them get too many. But to chase that down and chase it down in style really was brilliant.

And it's perfect timing as well because this feels like a different side to that one we saw in the 50-over World Cup last year.

Yeah, you know, we've been working hard on our T20 game. You're not having a load of bilateral cricket has allowed us to do that. And it's brilliant to see that come into fruition today. We've been really focusing in on higher chases and the reality that that's what we'll need in pressure games. When it comes to it in the World Cup. So to get over the line in a game like this just before the World Cup starts, it's huge for the confidence.

A word on Alice Capsie then, because it felt like today she unlocked a new level of batting.

Yeah, she was fantastic. I mean, the way she hit down the ground and cleared the rope and picked her moments as well and, you know, climbed in when she thought that it was a bowler she could take on. It was, yeah, it was a brilliant display of batting.

For Heather Knight as well, statement innings from her, but also at ground she knows so well. It's a classic contribution from her.

Yeah, Heather Knight loves Taunton and I love watching Heather Knight bat here. So to get a bit of a masterclass from her when maybe questions might be asked from outside. Yeah, I'm really chuffed for her. We know how much of a class player she is and how much she's going to contribute to this team in the World Cup. So for her to come out like that Today was brilliant.

You mentioned how hard the squad's been working over the winter. We've seen you take part in army weekend training camps as well, but one of the things so noticeable today I think was the fielding, and it's been something the team's been working really, really hard on, and it really showed.

Yeah, I think, I guess it's just that dynamic, you know, it's an attitude thing. It's how we want to play the game, and to be able to put in a performance like that today and you know, and filled all 20 overs with energy and intent. And yeah, it was brilliant. And I guess more to come.

Practically drowning in positive things this evening. But just to finish, how do you replicate performances like that in this World Cup with World Cup pressure?

I mean, you know, it was a series on the line, so we really wanted to win today. So I guess a little bit of pressure. Probably, you know, that amplifies tenfold in a home World Cup. But games like this in recent memory is really going to help that confidence. And hopefully we can keep pushing forward, keep getting better. You know, it still wasn't a perfect day. So, yeah, it's just really exciting to have a win like that and still really, you know, have things to improve on as well.

Charlie, thank you. Congratulations. And we'll see you at the World Cup.

See you there.

Cheers.

Well, that is the, uh, England stand-in captain Charlie Dean chatting to Melissa Storey on the boundary edge. Very happy skipper as well. England winning by 6 wickets to win the series by 2 matches to 1. And what a performance it was between the England duo of Alice Capsie and Heather Knight, who put together that marvelous run chase and partnership that got England to their target of 181, a record in this country in women's T20 international cricket. And so England head to the World Cup— two warm-up games before then, I should add— but head to the World Cup filled with confidence, having won both series that they've played in the build-up to it. So if you want all the reaction, BBC Sport website and app, Fionn Wynne will be bringing you all the analysis detail. And, uh, and then also, as we go through the tournament, every ball of every game from June 12th where England take on Sri Lanka at Edgbaston. Before any of that, England's men are in action in Test match cricket beginning on Thursday morning, 10:25, for the first of 3 Test matches against New Zealand. That's at Lord's. We'll be live on the outfield with Jonathan Agnew and the team, and there'll be highlights on today at the Test as well. So, so much cricket to look forward to and so much to enjoy as well on BBC Sounds. Just subscribe to the TMS podcast to make sure you never miss a thing. And, uh, and we look forward to bringing you so much more over the course of the next few weeks. Look out for a special podcast, uh, reflecting on this series as well. That'll be available later on tonight. And, uh, and do make sure, as I say, you hit that subscribe button. From Melissa, from Fionn, from Alex, and from me, Henry Moran, thank you ever so much for listening. 10:25 Thursday morning, men's Test match cricket returns, and then it is the Women's World Cup. From June the 12th. Thank you ever so much for joining us. We'll speak to you again soon. This is the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.