England lead grows at a gloomy Headingley

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

So close of play on the second day of this first Rosé Test match at Headingley. England in a strong position, but Pakistan fighting back towards the close of play with the left-arm spinner Ali Usman picking up three late wickets. He's finished with five in all. But England have a substantial lead, close on 200 with 2 wickets left. Smith and Archer at the crease. Play starting at quarter to 3. Half centuries from Cox, Root, Brook making 91, and Lawrence, uh, 51, putting England in a strong position in this Test match. Michael Vaughan alongside me. Well, something for Pakistan there towards the end, but the overall situation of the game after only 2 days, England certainly in the box seat.

Yeah, I mean, I, I'll be staggered if it's not finishing tomorrow. with what I've seen on the pitch today. There's, uh, there's still movement. We've just seen one from Mohammad Abbas, uh, 81 overs bowled and the ball's still nipping around. So I think Pakistan have got a huge job to do on day 3 to take it into day 4. Ali Usman was excellent. I, I don't know the history books in terms of spin bowling, Henley, on day 2, but I don't recollect a spinner getting a fifer on day 2 of a Test match here in Leeds in my time watching and covering the game. So he bowled really well. England had, you know, a great chance to go and get real a really big score, and I get I get the feeling that the players almost they got themselves in, and I wouldn't say it was boredom, but they they knew they could just kind of knock it around, and one or two shots got them out. The likes of Dan Lawrence here were disappointed not to go and get a bigger score. He played well for his 51. I thought Jordan Cox he just looks a player, you know. He just looks like he's got all the time. He played two or three shots today that reminded me of A.B. de Villiers. Some of those punches through extra cover, and they're decent balls that he's hitting, and it was off Mohamed Abbas. So I I would put as their best bowler with obviously Usman. Yeah, one or two clips through mid-wicket, just a few little punches at square of the wicket off the offside. He's a proper player. I think England know that they've got a good player in Jordan Cox. Look, this Pakistan attack is nothing but okay. It's the kind of attack that when you look down and watch as a player on the balcony, you know that you should be getting a number against them. They've had a bit from Abbas. They've had a lot in the last session from Usman. Khurram and Mohammad Ahmed Ali just looked nice to face. And, you know, England will come up against bigger challenges. This batting lineup will come up against better bowling attacks. The one area that I would talk about, and we talked about it mid-afternoon, is about this England side training the brain to bat for 110, 120 overs in the first innings of the Test match. They've still only batted over 80 overs, just, and 8 wickets down. So they're not going to bat 110, 120 overs. Yes, they're miles ahead of the game. They're going to win this Test match. But if they want to be a really quality side against the better bowling attacks, they've got to train their brains to bat for that little bit longer in the first innings.

What were your thoughts on Harry Brook today and his dismissal?

Yeah, oh, he's dismissed, he just missed just length. You could see he just started to fly, he wanted those 3 figures tonight. He played with great control. He's played innings today where he's got 91, and it's very rare that you kind of think back and I don't remember many of his shots. He just batted and he just played, and he's played some glorious shots, but nothing stands out. He's not played one of those ramp shots, he's not danced down and whacked one over extra cover for 6. He just batted and Look, we all know how talented he is and we know how, how good he is. Um, you know, he's, he's in a different kind of team now because they will have different leadership in terms of what they expect. Um, yeah, it won't be the last time that we see Harry Brook just bat with ease without breaking sweat and get a good score to his name.

Yeah, out for 91. He did look as though he was on for 100 tonight, but one of 5 wickets for Ali Usman. Alistair Cook is here, Mark Wood is here as well. What did you make of that sort of late-order collapse, if you like, from England, Alistair?

Well, a good bit of bowling, I suppose, from Usman, certainly to Ollie Robinson and Gus Atkinson. I was surprised, and I think he did Harry Brook really with the length and the pace, and he varied his pace. He bowled some good balls today. He'll be probably a little bit frustrated actually. He's still As a Pakistan bit of a trait in this innings, that even he was bowling, he went at 4 an over, and it was kind of like that bad ball an over he bowled because England didn't really have to attack him. But he's picked up the 5 wickets. I think they'll be happy with their day's work, to be honest with you. I think the collapse— is it a collapse or they just lost a couple of wickets? I wouldn't call it a collapse.

Yeah, it wasn't a dramatic collapse, was it? And Usman got through, got through against the lower order. Jonathan Agnew Uh, here as, as well. Game's moving on, Jonathan.

Well, it is. I mean, it could, it could be, it could be done tomorrow. It depends a bit about the weather and what happens and so on. But, uh, England, I just think they've had a really good day. And Harry Brook, uh, you know, if that, if that has turned a corner for Harry Brook, who did not play one reckless shot, didn't play one swipe across the line, he just went out there and batted. And if he, if he carries on batting like that Okay, he'll have more challenging attacks to bat against, but in that mindset, I mean, he's gonna score a million runs. As Michael said, he can't remember many of his shots. We just played— he played almost a run-a-ball, uh, risk-free. He was dropped on one, okay, um, a loose little fiddle out there when he first came in, and that, that should have been taken. But these things happen, and you, you, you know, you, you just move on, don't you? But I thought that the way in which he He went about his innings today, it was absolutely what people have been crying out for. I thought he played absolutely brilliantly.

Mark, sitting in that England dressing room when you watch Harry Brook bat, do you sometimes think, actually, Harry, you could have scored a few more? Um, or do you kind of accept what he's got?

No, because I think— no, because some of the shots he plays where he hits for 4 and 6, I think, well, I couldn't do that either. So it's like, it's Rough with the smooth, isn't he? Sometimes when he dances down, hits Stark over the top for 6, and then they put the field back and he knocks it for 1, I think, oh my word, this guy, like, he's doing this against the best attacks. I know what you're saying in terms of like being less risky. Today he played really well. I think just looked risk-free, played with ease, ticked the score along without you really noticing. I mean, some of, some of the things that I would be used to seeing with him, he would dance down and hit people over extra cover, over Mid-off and mid-on for 6. But the real highlight I remember was like back-cutting the spin. Like when the ball was almost past him, he was sort of like late cutting it past sort of like a wide point or short third off the spin. And that was probably the highlight for me is that he played with lovely touch and finesse. And yeah, he didn't have to use that blood-draining way that we know. And then they went with the bounce field and a lot of people questioned him then, think that's a method to get him out. and he looked composed. He took it on, hit it in the gap. Yeah, it was a, it was a very good day for an England fan and, and for that dressing room to have that belief in, in Brooky's batting. But I think they've got that anyway.

Yeah, it's kind of like, I was— when you watch Harry Brook, you feel he's so talented, don't you? You know, he averages what, mid-50s? You feel, you almost feel he could average, you know, 70.

Without any frustration.

If he played at kind of like 85%. I mean, that's kind of the debate, and I don't know, I don't know necessarily where we are with it. What do you feel about it, Alistair?

Well, I feel, as is— and I said this yesterday with Aggers— I think when he first came into the side, I'm not sure he was totally sure how he wanted to play in Red Bull Cricket. And McCullum and Stokes gave him that freedom to go and play really attackingly. Because I think when I saw him playing for Yorkshire at the beginning of his career, he had opened and also slid down the middle order a bit where he was uncertain how the tempo he went. So he went all in. And he produced some fantastic results, you know, lots of runs, certainly against Pakistan. His record against Pakistan is unbelievable, almost Bradman-esque, and it's given him clarity to do that. And now I think as you do learn and you evolve, he, he's doing that in front of our eyes. The one thing that happens when you are number one batter in the world and you averaging close to 60, like it was 55, that just comes with expectation and pressure. That's another little— element which no one really thinks about when you start playing cricket but happens. So we are— because we— he's now been doing numbers which have almost been unheard of for an English batsman in these conditions, suddenly the problem with that is, if it is a problem, is start— you start to get expectation, the media expecting him to do it all the time, and he has— he has to learn with that. So I think today we saw a little evolution of his batting where he He didn't have to do anything fancy. Yes, his bowling attack is not world-class, but he played in a real nice tempo. And he—

and he—

we might see, we might see a little illusion. Will we see some bad shots from Harry Brook at some stage in the next 2 years? We will, we will, because that's how he plays. Some of the shots he does play— like, I was going to ask Woody whether he ran down and danced and hit you, hit you over extra cover in the net ever. But that is some of his— the charm of watching him bat, that uncertainty of how he's going to bat.

Still going all right though. He still averages 55 playing that way, do you know what I mean? So like, it'd be frustrating maybe him getting out like that, but he's getting— he's banking them runs in the bank in the games from all these other shots when maybe if he just blocked it or he played normal, he wouldn't get any runs for them. Yeah, so you've got to look at both sides of the argument. Yes, I do agree, but also he is getting those runs by playing that way. Average 55, still not bad.

No, it's fantastic.

Amazing.

I think that's— I think, I think it's an interesting debate. He's fantastic, his numbers are fantastic, but you wonder whether there could be an improvement, probably more of an improvement, probably because he is that good potentially.

Probably, but you always, you always want more, you always want better, don't you? I mean, I would like my numbers to be less, I'd like the ball 97 miles per hour every time I let go of the ball. You always want more. I think what I'm trying to say is to balance the argument is yes, there'll be times where you might get frustrated at the way that he's got out, but you also got to laud him when he plays Some of the shots that he does, why he puts bowlers off their length, or he makes them miss their execution because he's danced down and hit them. So yes, I'm not saying that the way that he plays all the time is like the way that he should play that ball, or the way that he should have got out was wrong. But I think you've got to balance it both of them.

I wasn't slagging him off at all.

No, no, I'm not saying that.

I'm just talking about the evolution of Harry Brook. Yeah, we're seeing we saw we've seen a little bit of it now. I think after correct after Australia, see the frustration was Australia.

He just did it too many times and failed too many times by playing. Reckless shots, you know, and bringing down his downfall when the whole team was struggling. Uh, he would get out in a silly way. And, and, and so that's why I think there is this frustration, the focus on, on Harry Brook. There was the off-field stuff as well. And with— this is a sign. And then— and he captained the white ball team extremely well, by the way, this summer. Um, if, if there is a maturity about him as, as a leader, as a responsible senior member of the team, And as a test match batsman, well, let's hope this is the start of a of a chapter that's going to produce a bag a bag full of runs. And when Joe Root has finished this this presumably quite a short time as captain, maybe until the end of next year, Brook is actually then in a good position to take over because he was overlooked this time. Let's not forget he was vice captain, and he was overlooked because the the management felt that he he he wasn't ready for the job or what or whatever. Well, he's I think he's gone out and batted today showing the maturity that a lot of people have been, have been looking for, and, and that could well spread into the other aspects of his, of his, of his life as well.

What about the, the other 2 players who, you know, had— well, on display in this game, they're kind of battling for a place in the side. Jordan Cox and Dan Lawrence, 2 players that you know well, Alistair.

Yeah, I think they both played Nice. And they'll both be thinking exactly the same when they get back to their hotel rooms. I'll be sitting in the dressing room thinking, I've just let an opportunity go to get 100. So you don't start questioning their place. They kind of take that out of the selectors' thing. If they scored a couple of hundreds in this series, and they still might do that, you start taking selection out of the selectors' hands. 50s, 60s, 70s don't do that. We saw a glimpse, I thought, from Jordan Cox I like his first 50, played some lovely shots, seeing some talent. We've seen some 50s from Dan Lawrence before. I thought his new technique looks better, certainly to the straighter ball. By doing that, we'll open up challenge of nicking because that's always a balance when you're open or slightly closed. So I think they'll both be happy they've got score on their comebacks, but they'll both be thinking against this attack today, there was 100 there for the taking.

I tell you what, let's hear from Jordan Cox. He's been speaking to Stephen Finn.

Jordan, 73 today, uh, well played. How did you feel out there?

Yeah, okay. Yeah, obviously overheads, me and Joe thought it'd be quite tough to start off the day, um, so it was about getting through that first half an hour and then just kept on going, didn't it? It was, it was great batting with Joe. He's obviously done it for years now, so he was just, you know, making sure I was concentrating every ball and, and thinking, uh, How many runs basically can we get together?

How calming is it to be out there with someone as experienced as Joe Root in that situation?

Yeah, if I could bat with him every time, that would be awesome. He's someone that relaxes you, basically tells you, okay, 5 more runs, 10 more runs, 15 more runs, awesome. So literally every single over is like, come on, you've got 5 more runs to get, 10 more. So it's literally like breaking it down so simple, but Yeah, so effective.

Did you enjoy batting at 3? It's a position you've only batted— I think this is the second time in your career you've batted at 3. Was— did that feel any different to you in this innings?

No, not really.

I—

it's such a hard question to answer because if England told me I had to bat 11 for the rest of my career, I would do it. So If I have to bat 1 or 5 or wherever it is, I'm going to try and do it to the best of my ability. So it's about just going out there and believing in your game, just having fun, and that's what I feel like I'm going to try and do.

Did you feel like this opportunity after your misfortune in New Zealand was a long time coming? You've kind of done the hard yards in domestic cricket, scored the runs, you've been really patient for this, but did it feel a long time coming?

Look, I think I've said this quite a few times now that The depth we have in the English cricket, in county cricket especially, is unbelievable. So, you know, Beth's come in and done unbelievably well. So it was about, you know, trying to score runs and trying to put my, you know, try and bang down that door. You know, county cricket's obviously really good and great for my development personally, but, you know, everyone wants to play Test cricket. So it's, you know, when you get that opportunity, you have to try and take it.

Before the match, clearly a lot's happened since you were last playing Test cricket. How did you talk before the match about your approach as a batting group? Because to me that looked just like sensible, measured Test batting. But did you talk about that in particular?

I think it was as simple as, guys, you bat your own way, so whatever that looks like. So Joe's might be a bit different to Emilio's, or Emilio's might be different to mine. So it was about What you feel comfortable doing, you do. You know, you don't do anything stupid and out of the box which you haven't done in training. It's just been very measured and calculated.

A 195-run lead here. You're clearly in a fantastic position. How do you see it all transpiring tomorrow? Because the spin was a bit of a surprise there, and it looked like it surprised you when it got you out.

Yeah, it was. Yeah, we definitely didn't think it was going to turn as much as it has, but I think it's quite tacky. I think the wicket's becoming— but look, if we can get, you know, 50, 60 more runs tomorrow and hopefully bowl them out, that's the goal anyway.

Well played. I look forward to seeing more of you in an England shirt.

Thank you very much.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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What is Jordan Cox's best position? What does he look like as a player, do you think?

I just liked his answer about not down to number 11, but the fact that I don't Woody thinks. I think his batsmen get very precious about whether the actual numbers they bat. What's the difference between 3 and 4, you know? I mean, yeah, you just got— you just, you've got them bat, don't you? I mean, that's not— what difference do you— if you have 9 or 10, Woody, it makes no difference, does it? You go out, you go out and you bat. So I, I, I just— he looks sort of player to me. He could bat anywhere, to be honest. He's got really good technique, uh, he's got a, you know, good range of shots. Um, we haven't seen that much. Oh, we haven't seen him exposed to really quick bowling yet, for instance. Um, that's always something that's, you know, is important. But he just looks like a Yeah, a really good, really good talent.

Yeah, I think he looks like a good player to me. Just kept things simple, played all around the ground. I, again, I don't think there's anything where particularly something like jumped off the page where I saw a weakness or anything. I think he just played, played really well. And then disappointing the way that he got out because he, he thought that partnership between him and Root, you didn't see a way of breaking that bubble. It just seemed like they were just gonna continue in the, in the in the gear that they were in. They didn't try an overhead, they didn't try anything funky, they just played. And, um, yeah, I think he— the thing that struck me most about him was his temperament at the crease. He looked very calm. He didn't look flustered at all. Like, if it's your second game and you're batting 3 for England, you'd think there'll be nerves, or you might play nervy shots. He didn't do any of that. He just looked assured.

Michael compared him to AB de Villiers at the start of this podcast, Alistair.

Well, he played some Avi de Villiers-like shots, I think, whether the— certainly that backfoot punch through the offside. He played one straight as well, that kind of same trigger movement and not trying to overhit the ball, but seems to hit the ball quite hard. He'll have sterner Tests, but he's off and running. And yeah, I think the short balls thing we did see in a bit of one-day cricket. He wasn't— a couple of games we weren't quite certain of how to play that, but talking to the Essex, a few of the Essex lads Since he's come from Kent, he's been superb, and they think he's a real player.

What about the makeup of this Pakistan side? And we were here yesterday saying they desperately needed a 4th seamer.

Probably got it right.

And yet the spinners come out and take 5 wickets. I mean, actually, what they needed was they needed a 4th seamer and they needed the spinner as well. You needed the 4— you need 4 pace bowlers.

They needed better seam bowlers.

Yeah, probably.

That's probably actually what they wanted.

So 3 and 1 is okay, but you just need the 3 to be better.

Exactly.

Yes.

I don't think they expected the pitch to turn and the left-arm spinner to bowl 20-odd overs. So I think they've got quite lucky with their selection that actually it hasn't cost them too much in terms of— they hadn't looked short today because Usman bowled nicely and held an end up so you could rotate the seamers from the other end. But yeah, the standard they're bowling today, it's just they bowled some really good balls but just never did it consistently enough. And when you're batting against that kind of bowling, when you, you don't feel under pressure to score because you know you're going to get a bad ball. It's the perfect time to bat.

Headingley dear too, you wouldn't think spin, would you? You've never ever thought—

not with weather like this too.

Yeah, you're never thinking, oh, it's going to turn and the spinner is going to be the one that does the damage. I don't know if that says more about the seam or if it says more about the shock of that it was actually spinning. Abbas is somebody that normally seams it on any sort of wicket, but he didn't At times today, it just looked a bit. It was missing that extra something in that attack, that extra bit of clack like Nassim Shah or a giant shot, like a bit of edge. Yeah, that's a great way of putting it—a bit of edge. That's what it probably missed in that attack, or intensity.

Felt felt lacking intensity. I think maybe the game they deep down know that.

It's quite interesting that he did those two in players. But for length, isn't it? I mean, they're both well set. Yeah, both were pretty well deceived there actually, weren't they?

He bowled nicely and he did that, did him a length. You're absolutely right. Whether that was just a light maybe.

4 of the 5 wickets, well, he got them out. Yeah, Lawrence, you could say fair enough, he, he put one up the chimney, but the other 4, they were just played around the front pad. He beat one on the outside edge and clipped the top of the stumps. He beat one on the inside edge, LBW. So he You know, got those wickets by, by crafty bowling.

Him apart, it's been a pretty ordinary performance from Pakistan, hasn't it? Really, I mean, some of their fielding—

Yeah, poor. I mean, it's like an old generation. Uh, yeah, they, they don't— I mean, they look rather like a side to me that hasn't played any cricket, and yet they have. Uh, and they've just come off the back of a Test win. They, they beat the counties the other day, but they don't look like that somehow. They, they look rusty. The bowling is not consistent, fielding doesn't look fit. Um, I think what they— so we'll go back to what they missed. They missed quality seam bowling when England started their innings. Um, it might only have been 3, but they need, you know, it wasn't there. Um, and yeah, the spinner coming on, but they say they, they look like a rusty side when actually they're not.

Totally agree. And the dropped catch. Yeah, you know, if you drop Brook on 1, he gets 90, that's a big chunk of the game gone. Yeah. Um, Cox was dropped on a caught and bowled, wasn't he? So that there's elements of that play where you think the game could have been different if they'd caught well and bowled better, and they just didn't.

And batted better.

So just a quick thought about the, the state of the game. Um, it's going to be problematical for Pakistan, isn't it, batting in their 3rd innings, you feel?

We— I mean, you looked at that last, that last over from Abbas with an 80-year-old over ball. He hit one past Jamie Smith off stump and he's edged by about 3 or 4 inches. So there's plenty in that wicket. And yeah, weather dependent, I can't see Pakistan batting more than 80 overs.

2 of them will get big hundreds if they're gonna—

Yeah, they're gonna have to play really well.

Yeah, England bowlers should be licking their lips tomorrow. If I'm a seam bowler, I'm going to bed tonight thinking I could get— I look at that lineup, they didn't feel destructive to me, and I've played against this A few of the Pakistan lads before. They're not destructive batters. The building and Saud and other lads, they sort of play and they'll put the bad ball away if it's a bad ball, but they don't come after you. So I'd be thinking with a lead like this, get right into them.

Yeah, close on 200. Thanks very much, Andy Zaltzman. I think we should focus on. I think we should focus on spin, shouldn't we? And Ali Usman and where that stands. 5 wickets at Headingley, uh, pretty rare, but also 5 wickets so early in the game as well.

Uh, yes, an extraordinary performance. Just his, uh, his 3rd Test, made his debut, uh, just a few weeks ago in the West Indies. Um, 5 for 91 from his, uh, 23 overs. The last visiting spinner to take a 5-wicket haul on this ground, um, was Ashley Mallett for Australia in 1972. And in terms of first innings fifers by spinners at Headingley, Jack Leach had one against New Zealand in 2022, and before that you've got to go back to Phil Edmonds on his Test debut against Australia in 1975 for the last time a spinner took a 5-wicket haul in the first innings at, uh, at Headingley. He's just the, uh, 4th left-arm spinner to take a 5-wicket haul in England, uh, for a visiting team since 1982. Uh, sorry, the 3rd. The 4th time, Daniel Vettori did it twice, and Shakib Al Hasan in 2010, the most recent, uh, for, for Bangladesh. So a fantastic performance. Uh, by, uh, by him. He had 1 for 72 off his first 16 overs and then 4 for 20 in the last 7 that he bowled, uh, that he bowled today. Uh, Harry Brook, one of his wickets after a fine innings of, uh, of 91. Uh, he has a prodigious record in the first innings of series. This is the 11th series he's played in, counting only sort of full series rather than one-off Tests. Uh, has now scored 1,166 runs in the first innings of series at an average of 106, uh, which is almost Almost 20 runs on average better than Don Bradman managed in first innings of series. So 11 innings, 3 centuries and 7 other 50-plus scores, including the 91 today. His second dismissal in the 90s on his home ground here at Headingley. Out for 99 last year against India. Made 75 against Australia in his other Test on this ground. Only one other player has been out in the 90s twice at Headingley. That was— I'll give you a lot of money if you can guess it, which you won't.

Anyway, I'm not gonna bother trying then.

Don't bother trying. Sadiq Mohammad of Pakistan in the 1970s was out twice in the '90s, uh, on, on this ground. And a different sort of innings from Brook when he reached, um, he still scored almost a run a ball, uh, hit 13 fours, um, but when he reached 50, he'd scored 38 of his runs behind square, which is the most runs he's ever scored behind the square in the, in his first 50 runs. A lot of deflections, not so many of the booming drives that we associate, uh, with Brook, one of 4 players, England's numbers 3, 4, 5, and 6, all reached 50 without making 100. It's the 9th time England have had 50s from numbers 3, 4, 5, and 6 in the same innings, and only the 2nd time that, uh, they've not managed 100 having, uh, having, uh, having done that. So yeah, a curious looking, uh, looking scorecard. And Joe Root out LBW to a seamer for the 7th time in his last 6 Tests, having been out to LBW to seam bowling only three times in his previous 35. Zoltz, thank you very much indeed.

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