England lose at Lord’s & Cummins injury concerns

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BBC Radio 5 Live.

Hello, I'm Alison Mitchell. Welcome to the TMS podcast where England have been outclassed by South Africa as they lose the ODI series at Lords. Last ball around the wicket, Mr. Swami dancing down. Oh, he's inside. Edged it and it goes away towards short final leg. And South Africa win the match. They win the series. But what an effort from England with the bat after the calamity of Headingley. They almost pulled off something unbelievable. Set 331 by South Africa. They have ultimately been the better team. Walloped England in Leeds and now they have got themselves home to a two nil series scoreline. With one to play, they win by a mere five runs to come. We'll hear from Sir Alistair Cook and Ebony Rainford Brent as well as reaction from on the field. Plus we discuss Pat Cummins potentially missing the Ashes.

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BBC Radio 5 live.

So South Africa win this second One Day International by five runs at Lords. It means they have secured the series two nil with a game to come in Southampton having had that hefty seven wicket win at Leeds. So I don't know whether we start at the toss. We've got Sir Alistair Cook alongside me and Ebony Rainford Brent as well has joined us. Alistair, we always knew and Simon Mann was very, very, very, very intent on ramming home that point about the stats, saying that when you come to Lords, the team that wins, the team that Bats first had won nine out of the last ten one day internationals. And so it proved to be. Do we go back to the toss for this or given that England got so close, has that sort of become a bit immaterial?

Well, I think it just adds another one onto the Simon Statman. The next time it'll be 10 out of 11 or whatever it is. I think on this one, on these conditions, I think those stats you have to put, when you put next to it, you have to say why they bowled first and they bowled first because they'd had a lot of rain yesterday, heavy rain this morning, heavy showers this morning. And there was a moisture and there was, guess what, there was movement there today. There was movement that first 10 overs. And I think England bowled okay. I think they probably bowled if we'd been like ultra critical, probably half a yard too short on an absolute belting wicket. They bow perfectly, you know, bow that back a little hard to hit when it was moving. They could have bowed that little bit more aggressive bow a little bit fuller. Credit to South Africa for getting through that, that first 10 overs because it did move. And England, if you know they could, three wickets, four wickets, they take a massive step forward in the game. And also you do have to put in on this stat thing just for Simon. Actually England got bowled out of 130, batting first in only two days ago. So you can see why with all those things that Harry Brook decided to bow first. I think probably a 50, 50 call. So I, I'm not going back to saying that the toss was the reason, as much as Simon would love us to be believing it was the reason England lost this game.

Well, I be the nuts and bolts of the match before we bring ebony in as well. So after South Africa were put into bat, well, the big partnership for them was 147off126 balls between Matthew Bretz and Tristan Stubbs. Bretzky with 85 and Stubbs with 58off62 balls. That's after Markram. It didn't get off to quite the same flyer that they had, of course, that was chasing headingley. But Markram's 49 off 64 and Rickleton's 35 from 33. They set a platform in 73 for the first wicket. But even lower down the order, South Africa built on the platform. They had to pile up 330 for 8. Archer finished with 4 for 62. But it was a big, big total, the highest total that England had conceded in a one day international at lords. So therefore chasing 331. They were looking at a record run chase at Lords. Certainly would be the highest successful chase ever against South Africa if they were to do it. Duckett, a very sort of unducket esque innings from him. 14 from 34, three. But that was after Jamie Smith was out first ball of the innings. So England's run chase got off to the worst possible start when he inside edged Burger through to Ryan Rickleton. Duckett then followed. He was bowled by Maharaj looking to to sweep. Joe Root batted really nicely for 61 off 72 and Harry Brook, Joss Butler, Jacob Bethel was a standout innings for him. We'll talk more about him in a moment as well. Half century coming off 28 balls, some really big lusty blows. 58 off 40 for him. There are a couple of moments where, yes, he thought actually the game is going to be done, particularly when Brook and the, the Butler partnership came to an end. But Dra Archer kept it entertaining right to the end and made all those fans who had left thinking it would be game over at the fall of Will. Jack's wicket and then Bryden Carson's wicket. Two fours and two sixes to get England to within five runs when they finished on 325 for nine. So a five run victory for South Africa and Ebony. What's really stood out for you then in this match?

I think two things. I think when you win the toss and there is a little bit of movement, they would have been hoping for those wickets in that power play early on and without that breakthrough, it meant that South Africa on the move. I think the defining thing for me actually is that partnership between Bresky and Tristan Stubbs. I felt it just took the game away, you know, you knew that they were on to setting a big total.

Ebbs will come back to you in a moment because England captain Harry Brook is with Simon Mann.

Yeah, thanks very much, Alison. Well, Harry, what did you make of that?

Yeah, disappointed obviously, but I think it was a very good effort to chase that amount of runs. To get within one blow of their score was. Yeah, it was an awesome effort.

What did you think of chase of 331?

Yeah, me and Baz spoke at halfway. We reckon there were about 10, 15 over par. But yeah, with our batting lineup, this is what we set up for. We want to try and chase them. Big scores and yeah, unfortunately tonight wasn't the night and I still think it was a very good game to watch.

It was a brilliant game to watch. What was one of the keys perhaps inability to get some early wickets with the new ball.

Yeah, it wasn't inability. I think we were quite unlucky at the top. We had a lot of play and misses. I can't tell you the stats on that. But yeah, we were a little bit unlucky with the new ball to not get a nick or an LBW or whatever. But yeah, the lads stuck in there really well in the power play. I thought we had a great power play without taking any wickets. Yeah, it just didn't go our way tonight.

What was it like there at the end? It was kind of nearly. Oh, it might happen. Oh, it's not going to happen. What was it that feeling like in the dressing room?

I think until the last six? Well, six to eight overs, last 10 overs. We were like, if we have one big over here, we're well back in it. And that was almost the case the whole way through. But like I said, that's why we set the team up as it is. To get within one blow of that score today was a very good effort.

Jacob Bethel's situation in at number four today, was that just to keep the left hand, right hand combination going or was that a plan at the start of the innings?

No, it was just to keep left hand, right hand going. Obviously they had two left arm spinners, so it was just to try and unsettle them really. And he batted beautifully and brought us straight back into the game because he's.

Been a bit of focus on him, isn't he? But he plays so well.

Yeah, he batted beautifully. I don't know what focus is on him, but he played awesome. And alongside Ruti Joss as well. It's good.

Signs one game to go. Southampton, what do you do Sunday? Do you same team. Do you make some changes because the series is gone?

No, no, just continuity. I think that's what breeds the best teams. We haven't had a discussion about it and I'm probably sure I'll talk to Baz about in a day or two and we'll come up with a team, but it will be very similar.

Thanks very much, Harry.

Bad luck today.

Thank you.

There we go. This is Harry Brook and Temu Bavuma is joining me as well. Well, it got quite tight there at the end. Temba, how did you see that end and how do you react to your team's victory?

Yeah, I think it got quite exciting for everyone watching. Yeah, I think they just kept coming right. Obviously with the short boundary it was always going to be tricky and obviously guys Like Josh Butler, Jax, they're coming at the end. They're always well within the game. So I felt we held on nerve quite well. Probably led them into the. The game more than we. We should have at the end. But look, we'll, we'll take the victory.

Did you think it was going to slip away there right at the end?

No, no, I think, look, I think something special was always required from, from, from one of their batters. Like I said, with the guys that they still had, that was still a possibility, but I think they just had to keep going. Yeah. So I think quietly confident. Yeah.

What did you think of your team score? 330. Do you think? Yeah, that's a rock solid winning score.

Yeah.

Look, I mean, if I look at it the time where, when young Brevia's came in, you know, I was speaking to Aidan and I thought maybe 270, 280 might be a good score. And obviously they kept going, you know, Matthew Bretzke again, you know, well within the run. Stubborn, you know, back in the score as well. So when we got to 3:30, I thought, you know, that's more than I would have, that I would have taken looking at where we were earlier, but obviously the wicket got better. Pace wasn't as quick off the wicket. I think their batteries also show that.

What do you think sort of overall was the key to your victory today? What did you feel you did really well. Defining moments of the game, really, or the way you played?

Defining moments in the game. Look, I think if you look at with the bat, I mean, there was a solid partnership up front between Aidan and Rickelton. You know, Aidan carried it through. Yes, he would have liked him to go in to get a big score. And then a guy like Matthew Bretzka in the middle as well, taking charge with young Stubbsy and then Previs as well, coming in and doing what he did, you know, that got us to a more than competitive score. And I think with the ball, look, we probably weren't at our best, I think at our own admission as the bowlers, but we, we always stayed in there. Keshe again came in and showed why he's number one bowler. I think the fielding was also up there as well. That's something that we want to pride ourselves again in and I think that's also helped in terms of keeping us within the game.

And one final point, I know you've got to go off into your TV interview, but what does it mean to come here and win the series the first Time you've won a series here since 1998.

Okay. Wasn't aware of that fact.

Yeah.

I think again, you know, it's just part of building that confidence for us as a, as a team while we're on this journey of what we want to achieve. You know, all these landmarks are, I guess, are important. I think they're just positive indicators that we're going in the right way.

Very well played. Thanks very much for your time.

Thank you.

Thanks to Simon Mann down there picking up the interviews and I'm sure that the South Africa all formats coach, Shukri Conrad will be very proud as well because he's now taken over the, the white ball team as well. And to get that first series win in England since 1998 is a huge achievement for this South Africa team who obviously love Lords, have come back to the scene of their World Test Championship final as well. Ebony Rainford, Brent, you were talking about the South Africa side, but let's just talk briefly pick up about Jacob Bethel because, yes, there has been a bit of focus on him. As Simon Mann mentioned there, he was promoted. Boy, he showed, I guess, why there has been hype about him.

Yeah, I think Harry Brooks comment about there not being much focus kind of sums up actually why Bethel was able to have that freedom to play today. He is backed by that dressing room, the whole sort of everything from Rob Key, Brendan McCollum, Harry Brook. They see him as a player that they want him to learn on the international stage. And let's face it, he's been under a lot of scrutiny because he hasn't played a huge amount. He's been given the honor of captaining soon and maybe hadn't quite fired in the way that would expect it. To see him come out and do what he did. I mean, that over where he took. Took down 20, you know, it kind of, you look at it and you think you see exactly what they see in him. He's a real talent. And actually, I think it shows a bit of guts. You know, let's face it, even though they're saying there's no focus, he would have felt the heat, he would have heard a few of the noises and the, the criticisms or, or, you know, just why he's maybe getting so much airtime at the moment at such a young age. And I think he's kind of responded in a way he would have loved to have gone on today. And I think he will look back at that and think, I could have maybe just kicked on a little bit more. But equally he, he reminded us all exactly why that Jack Jessing were backing him.

His dismissal was a bit unfortunate, wasn't he? Got a wide ball that was there to hit and we caught it backward point.

Yeah, he batted beautifully today. He took down the spinners. I probably tactically, I think South Africa got that decision wrong. When he came in, they, they bowled both spinners at both ends and had Maharaj and then he, he took down a ad Mar obviously went for the, the, the. The off spinner bowling to left hand and Bethl saw that as his opportunity. To a guy who's pretty out of, kind of out of touch, he hasn't played much cricket, hasn't scored any runs. It was kind of right, this is going to get me going. And he got, I don't know, was it 20 odd balls? 23 balls for 50.

Yeah, 50 off 28.

It was a, you know, showing, showcasing his talent. He'll be. It was a, it was a, a good tactical move for him to go up the order to four. A bit of, bit of extra pressure, more pressure, but he responded and I think, I think it's, you know, little indication that he can handle the big arena. Which is why I think everyone who you talk to him about behind the scenes that this is the reason why they, they rate him so highly in the camp that he can go out there and play how he wants to play in a big, in a big occasion. And also you had to remember he also bowled him bowl particularly well. He went for over, over 10 runs and over. So he was kind of felt like he owed the team some something back and he went out and delivered. So that was great. He'll be disappointed because this was the opportunity to go on. And what we're going to say about his first professional 100, it was that he played the right shot to the right ball. It just didn't quite execute it right. But, you know, a positive day for Jacob Bethel and obviously Harry Brook trying to take every bit of pressure off him, saying what, what's. What's the story? Well, the story is he's captain and we're not people sure whether he should be captain, but he is. But yeah, he, he played nicely for his 50 and clearly if England to chase this, they needed one of their top four or five to go and get 100.

Yeah, because there was, you know, Root with his 61, Bethel with that 58, Brook 33 from 40, sort of bright innings which didn't kick on. But Butler 61 from 51 and, and Jack, Sean, I mean it Was a thrilling match to watch, wasn't it? And exciting because I think we, we were teased, weren't we? There were these partnerships and these sixes were hits and. But then a wicket would fall and you think, oh, that's the game. And then, and actually England came again, but then a wicket fall, oh, that's the game now. And spectators were leaving and yet still Archer came at them at the end. So for, from an entertainment point of view, it's been, it's been a fabulous match to watch.

Yeah. And I think in contrast to the, the game where they got bowled out or skittled, you know, to, to bounce back, I sometimes think is sometimes more important. You know, they could have easily come and not quite clicked or not fired, and they really put in a good effort to show that they were trying to take it right to the wire. Entertaining cricket all around. So that, that just shows that they've, you know, they, they haven't taken the, the loss in that first game lightly. They've really tried to come back. Look unfortunate. It's a quick series, so they're, they're out of it. But when you see a team apply themselves and, and improve, it kind of makes you realize that they're on the right trajectory. So good to see that.

Yep. Phil Long, give us some of the, the numbers and records and statistical and things of this match.

Yeah, well, EBONY mentioned there about taking.

The positives that people like to say that, don't they?

England in the end lost by five runs, but it was the highest score they've made batting second against South Africa.

The highest score they've made batting second at Lords. In fact only second in all time.

After the 326 for 8 that India.

Made back in 2002. And the fans today here have had a great old date.

655 runs in aggregate.

That's the most ever in an ODI. Lord. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live. You're listening to Leaffilter Radio and the guru of gutter protection himself, Chris Counahan is here to take your most pressing leaf related questions. Hey everybody, Chris here. I understand we have Ron on the line. Ron, where are you calling from?

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Right, we're going to have a bit of a chat around the news that's been coming out of Australia over the last few days surrounding their test captain Pat Cummins. Because with the Ashes looming and coming up in the very near future, well, what could it mean if their captain isn't fit to play some the opening game? We don't yet know. In fact, doesn't sound as if Pat Cummins even knows quite what his level of fitness will be come that first Test match at Perth on 21 November. The Australian captain, 32 years of age, is experiencing what Cricket Australia have termed a level of lumber bone stress. So Tamal Mills is alongside us as an expert in all things bowling and the niggles and injuries that get picked up as well. Agar is here and Alistair Cook as well, who of course was the player of the series the last time England's men won an Ashes in Australia 2010 11. But Tamal, first of all, lumber bone stress, just explain what that is. What does it feel like?

It's a modern scan injury.

Yeah, well, I feel like I've been brought in as the BBC's lumber stress correspondent. Yes. So I guess to just for a bit of context, what Australia do that we don't do in England, and I'm not sure any other country does, is they routinely scan their bowlers regardless of how they're feeling, I guess to see how they're doing and to try and pick up on these type of injuries early before they become stress fractures. So certainly yearly it might even be more frequently so their bowlers get put through the MRI at a period just to see where their bodies are and see where they're at. And for context, I think if you scanned every single fast bowler's body during the middle of a season, you would probably find some form of lumbar stress in. In the body. I guess the issue is, is. Is if it's bothering you, because you do. Sometimes you get some cricketers that have stress fractures that they don't even know about, or stress fractures that they've had but they've played through and have healed, whereas you obviously, on the other side of the coin, get a lot that obviously are in a lot of pain. They have a scan and they have a. Have, have a fracture. So we don't know at what stage Pat Cummings is at. Is this just a routine scan that they've done and they've seen some lumber stress? Has he been complaining? Has he. Has he been sore and then gone for a scan and they found this lumber stress and then how much of an issue is it causing? Because lumber stress in itself isn't a problem. It's when that stress becomes a stress fracture, that's when that. That is certainly isn't problem. So I guess from one side they'll be hoping that they've caught it soon and they can let it heal and let it settle down and then hope it doesn't then come back and return. But yeah, it will certainly be a cause for concern for Australia for sure.

So what we do know from cricket Australia, what information has been shared so far, is that Cummins, he first experienced ongoing lower back pain. Well, I think actually the first niggle like he felt perhaps after the World Test Championship Final here. But as he said, sometimes you feel something and then it just goes away. Bowler's aches and pains. It was ongoing lower back pain following the West Indies Test tour. So it goes out to the West Indies Bowls again there and then this back niggle, whatever he's feeling does not go away. So that's when they did what they're saying, further investigation, and that was the scan which then identified this level of lumbar bone stress. So they're saying it's about requiring further management. Now, Pat Cummins himself spoke to the. The media just a day or so ago and it's these comments which have particularly sort of caught the eye. Alistair and Agars, about just how he will manage it, because he just had no clarity, has no clarity in terms of what he's sharing about, you know, how long he'll fill this for and what might happen. But he says he's prepared to take a few risks with the rehab, you know, maybe not be kind of up to speed or pain free even by the time that first test match comes, comes around at Perth. I mean, as a old fast bowler yourself, how would you cope?

I mean, Ben Stokes was talking at, during the India series, wasn't he, about when that whole question of substitutes came up. He said, if you put me in a scanner now, the whole thing would spark up. And, and he's right. You know, I think, I think, you know, these, the scanners obviously do show, the MRI scanners show all sorts of things that you probably can play through and then people do play through them and until you're actually scanned and you see something, something, you know, you just, you just carry on playing. But clearly there is something here, the thing about Cummins that you've probably slightly concerned about. Of course he missed a huge amount of his early career with back trouble. He was, I think 2011-17 or something like that. I mean he, you know, there was, there was a serious doubt about whether he would ever actually pick up his career again. So I'm not suggesting this is the same sort of injury, but you can imagine they're being very cautious with that in mind. However, you've got a fellow who's, who's captain of Australia. Des wants to play in the Ashes. It might be the last one that he has at home or you throw all that into the mix and clearly he, he will want to play but it's, there's always something in the build up to every Ashes series, something about a player or will this happen, won't this happen? We all know what it's going to be for the moment that everyone gets to Australia, what the main talking point in the media is going to be and that is whether Pat Cow is going to play in that first test match or not. But at the certain, at the moment it doesn't seem, it doesn't seem certain that he'll be able to.

No. And even he has said off the back of that scan on Monday, said the scan wasn't terrible but enough to know there's a little bit there that I need to be careful. And he goes on to say I'm not bowling or doing much at the moment. The question is really how much he can do between now and the start of the Ashes. Does he need to. Maybe this is more of a question for tamales as the bowler. How much load do you need to have Tamal before going into a test match? Going to vary person to person, isn't it?

Yes. And Pat Coms has played an awful lot of cricket, hasn't he, for the last few years. You know, speak about that bowling attack of Australia. They're ever present, aren't they? Pretty much Stark, Hazelwood and Cummings. So you could argue that they're due an injury of this, of this kind of severity. Not that you want to see it, but yeah, I think you certainly want to be playing some form of cricket in the lead up to an Ashes series, whether you're a batter or a bowler.

But that Joffre Archer conversation that we had when he came back having played no cricket, you know, and that conversation about how much, how much do you actually need to have played.

Be the same with Mark Wood, won't it? If, if Woody doesn't play in these games for Durham, he's not going to play the game before for what, seven months, eight months maybe, maybe more.

I, I, I think this actually, I speaking to Mark Wood and he was actually, he probably is one of the bowlers who probably doesn't need much actual bowling because he, he has a limited number of balls in his ball. Not like Chris ws. You almost need to, he needs to build into the season, you know, and build miles and actually Woody, he only has to, he bowls at 100 all the time. He can't bowl 80%. It's almost, he, he just needs to pull a cone for a bit and then throw him into the game because that's where you're going to get the best out of him when he's fresh and wearing to go. The worry, I suppose for Australia and the fact that Pat Cummings is saying, well I'm not bowling now, I'm not bowling now and then I'll hold off, hold off. Actually what that does do then when you do have a massive spike in and workload is other injuries coming. So it might not just be the back is the fact that actually your body isn't match hardened and unfortunately he'll just have to, they'll just have to deal with it. The, the issue, not the issue. The thing for England if on the England point of view is I, I said, I've said all along if England will need a little bit of luck to go down here in Australia we had some luck in 2010-11 to win where their side wasn't as settled as I think they played three different spinners and this could be the start of, of something that little bit of luck. No one will ever think about it at the end of the, the result in 10 years time old Pat Cuman missed two games or this and that.

England line with his calf game.

England either win or lose the series, so. But England need a little bit of luck that, that their Form 5 bowlers, if you include bowling in that, if they play all those games and they're fit in the fire and have no needles or anything, they Australia incredibly soft, tough side to be in. Australia, Australia. However, if you take two of those bowlers out, you start looking at the next level of Australian bowlers. They're not at that elite level and they're the size that England's strength is their batting. They can dominate those bowlers. So actually that's what, that's where you start looking. You start looking on a, on a. Purely on a stats based thing, it does go into England's favour and this is the start of it that maybe they won't. Those, the fab four won't get through.

All the games where Cummins is fortunate. If you look at the way the Ashes are scheduled, he's got one Test in Perth and there's about 10 days off. Then they play the Brisbane game. Then there's another quite lengthy break before the Adelaide Test match. And then of course, yeah they do come thick and fast, it's Christmas and New Year. But actually those first two games that you nurse him through a bit actually there's, there's what longer than you expect off between those games. So that makes it more manageable and.

No coincidence why you sometimes find Scott Boland appearing in a Melbourne Test match. Because at that stage you've had three tests. It's the kind of bang bang of Melbourne and Sydney that comes when other bowlers, you know, the, the odd one here or there has given away and, and then Boland has had, has had his opportunity. I want, I do want to talk about, you know, the other bowlers that Australia have in their stocks that they could call upon. But Alistair, from the captaincy point of view, if you put, put an Australian captaincy hat on, what does it do to have uncertainty around who might lead the side going into a first Ashes Test?

I think if you didn't have any other candidates it'd be an issue. But you've got someone who's in their setup, who's captained a lot before in Steve Smith. So actually it's not an issue for this Australian setup because of Steve Smith. You know, you've got a captain who's done a lot. Obviously we know why he wasn't. He ended his captaincy career officially in terms of Australian captains of Sandpapergate. But you Know, he's great cricket brain loves. Absolutely no problem whatsoever throwing him into, into that, that role. So I don't actually see that as, as much of an issue as had.

Sandpaper Gate not happened, he'd probably be captain.

If he'd have lasted that long, Captain Sea Repair, he'd be pretty worn out.

But it's true though, isn't it? I mean, yeah, yeah, he would just step in, wouldn't he?

Do you think there's a, there's a scenario where they would chop and change the captain C. Let's say they get to the. Before the first test and Pat Cummins is clear. Or they might probably say he's not going to play all five tests. He's got this thing on his back. He's probably going to play Tests 2 and 4 or 13 and 5. Do they, does Pat Cummins captain those games that he plays in or do they say, okay, Steve Smith's going to captain all five?

I would say the, the way that Pat Cummings has handled the captaincy and his role, I don't, I just think he's, he's Australia's captain so when he, when, if he's fit and he's playing, he captains. That means he, he, he misses out because of your replacement. Because of what? You know, the fact that how exterior experienced D. Smith, what a player he is for Australia. I just, I just think that it just works well. There's no competition between him. He's not, he's not, he's not going for the job again. There's none of that. He's just captaining that game. But the way Pat Cummins is kind of held in Australia, the way this, you know, how he, how well he has done as a, a bowling captain, this is remarkable. Which has been extraordinary.

It was so rare. Yeah. For a bowler to captain so successfully and there's all the talk again when he, when he first got that job, wasn't it, oh, he'll never be able to do it. He's going to break down, he's going to be injured, he's going to be exhausted, not going to be into bowl. Actually all that's been nonsense. He's been an excellent captain and I.

Think that's probably, you know, it adds to why this has been, this has already become such a big story. You know, we're talking about it over here, but in the Australian media, it's blown up so quickly, just this idea of a niggle because he has become so talismanic for them and it's what he can also do with the bat alongside, yes, the bowling, the leadership. But he's played some match winning knocks. I mean, even over here. Mine goes back to that partnership with lion and the Edgbaston. He has a. He has the heart of a Lion and he is just one of those supreme athletes. When you watch him bowl, he does it again and again for Australia. A bit like in that Ben Stokes way of I'll grab the ball and I'll make something happen. He does that.

I would say just, just for the wordage there, I'd say this is more than a niggle. If, if you've had a scan and you've got bone stress in, in your lumbar spine as any speaking as a bowler and speaking that someone that speaks with and hangs around with, with fast bowlers all the time, that's. That's more than a niggle and that's. Your mind goes to a different place because, you know, if that turns into a fracture, you're done for eight months.

I thought you could say hang to hang around scanners.

That too. That too. I've had plenty of them.

But it's like paying many bowls, you think?

I mean, so it's a horrible. I've tried to play through a stress retro and this is only in T20 cricket, never mind the Test match, but you're literally running into the crease knowing something is about to hurt because it's a horrible place to be. Because more often than not, a lot of the times bowling is the only thing that hurts because it's. Normally it's a tiny little bone in your back and you've got a fracture in it, or you have a hot spot and you've got inflammation right now. You can walk around day to day, you're playing with your kids, you're going to the shops, you're doing everything and you're not injured, but you try and run in and, you know, slam down and bowl the ball and it's like you're being stabbed in the back. Now, we don't know if he's that far along the line yet. He's. He's obviously felt something and it's been for a prolonged period of time and he's gone for a scan. But the fact that they've seen it, that, that could go. You could bowl seven overs, spell in the first Test, be fine, and he could come into bowl, you know, second spell, and then bang, and you're gone and you can't bowl.

And is he prepared to, to push himself to appear in an Ashes to.

Then potentially and especially knowing that Australia, how do they formulate their team? Three fast bowlers and one spinner. And then obviously if they play by Webster or Cam Green, I don't know if he's going to be fit to bowl.

So he's coming back into, into bowling. That, that, that makes this role even more important, doesn't it?

Green's had multiple, so he's seen how long he's taken him to, to come back from, from a stress fracture. So I think that's a really good comment from someone who hasn't had a stress fracture, who doesn't know what it's like, you know, what a lumbar stress or any of that, but just that mental thing and you can relate it to how whatever you do in your life, whatever, actually running in to do something where you know it's about to really hurt for that short period of time and then you've got to execute something, put that to the back of your mind shows it's almost impossible. So Australia are lucky in one sense. They found it now because if they, if they say, oh, it's a bit sore, just rest up. They didn't scan him obviously they're going to scan it because he's, you know, you're going to therapy, they didn't need to have gone gone then, oh, it's fine, just a bit of rest, be fine. Then goes and plays a Sheffield chill game to, to play and then you're done, aren't. He's out the whole Ashes. So actually they've caught it at a really good time.

There's, there is definitely a world here where he does six weeks where they deload it. So there's, you know, he's not allowed to run, he's just on the bike and he's just doing gym, but know he's not lifting weights. But you can stay trying. Okay, six weeks you deload and then they probably will scan again and it looks good and then you're probably okay. So as, as Cookie just said, that is, there's definitely a world where the timing of it's really good because he can have six weeks off now, tick over and then come the middle of October you can get back in the nets and slowly build it up and then he'll be fine come mid November.

So he's saying here at this stage of my career, I feel I can probably get up to speed a bit quicker than when I was 18 or 19. He says back then you probably felt, feel like you need to play a Few shield games or one day as he says, I'm pretty confident even if I don't get a chance to play a shield game, I can get up to speed. If he can't get up to speed. You've already mentioned Scott Boland. Is he your automatic bowler that slides.

In for Perth within his last game? His last game when they bowled him out.

He didn't have a great ash his last time when went over there, did he? I mean he, he's.

I mean the 7, 7, 7 at the G is the 1.

He's always in here. He's the first we thought would bowl really well here. And England got him, didn't they? Went after. He went at sixes in the series. He went at sixes in the series. That never happened.

10 for in the border Gavaska Trophy when he got his opportunity.

Especially in Australian conditions. He's been superb and what a replacement to. To throw in also a guy who just knows his game so you know you're not throwing in a 21 year old. I don't want to say Sonny Baker kind of tight bowler who's fresh into the game. You're a guy who's literally been around. He's in the squad. He goes to every squad he plays if there's an injury and he's rock solid. But. But England did get it. They did get him and they went harder than whether they can do the same in Australian conditions with the Kookaball where he's probably so much more comfortable than he is bowling the Dukes ball in England where you know again is it going to swing? How much you going to swing? All that kind of knowledge. He's built up the Kookaburra ball different the Jukes but England do have good vibes against him like the last time they played him. This team, not the previous team. This setup of going after him.

So let's play the scenario that Cummins doesn't make the Perth Test match or goodness knows whether he can play bowl much feature during the Ashes. Scott Boland is in. You've still got Stark and Hazelwood that you want to get through all five matches which you know often it's been Boland coming in for for one of those. So who are the stocks after that then? If I throw you the names of Michael Neeser who was a backup for the Border Gavaska Trophy but he then picked up a hamstring injury and his last test match was in 2022. Brendan Doggett was a reserve for the World Test Championship final but then he picked Up a hip injury and was ruled out but he had a roaring time in the Sheffield Shield for South Australia.

11 a young lad, isn't he? He's what 21, 22 or something?

Sure of his exact age but Sean Abbott, another one who. He's sort of further down the list I suppose he was behind Doggett in the pecking order for the the West Indies tour was in the squad for the Border Gavaska Trophy. What do you make of that sort of step? Jai Richardson has been in and around. He's had injuries as well.

Yeah, he deputized for Cummins when he. Well he wasn't. He didn't actually get Covid did he? But he, he had, he was a Covid contact or something so he couldn't play in the Adelaide Test so Jai Richardson played at that. So he's another one to put onto the list. I mean what you could say it actually they've got a lot of. They've got plenty of experience in their backups. It's not going to be some young lad who comes in wide eyed and nervous and so on. It's going to be one of those who's been around for a while.

It's a step down.

I know, I know it's quite a harsh thing to say to those kind of bowlers because actually Stark, Hazelwood, Cummings are we could arguably say with lion in there one of the most all round bowling attacks ever to play the game of cricket together. Yeah, yeah that, that, that quartet are, you know it's hard to argue a quartet of that quality so no matter who they replace them with it is going to be a step down and. But that's just due to the quality that Australia have.

Yeah, I think from, from being out there during the big bash and before test series and stuff they're not afraid of having a. It's a bit. They're very different to England they'll have a shootout. This almost feels like whoever's doing well in the Sheffield Shield but that the, the press almost build it up in Australia that way it's like okay there's three Sheffield Shield games here. Who's going to get the most runs? Cuz they're going to open the batting in, in the next test and it could be a case of with the bowling as well.

Isn't that really interesting about that? All the Aussies are going back, aren't they? They're not like. I know I wouldn't say Han's in the mix but Bancroft asked to go back from Gloucester to go back Straight away Han's coming, going back to playing someone else. Trying to think. I'm racking my brain for one other, but everyone is really, you know, they're batting lines, they're that top three and it's right, it's a shootout. I, it could be a case. I would say KUA just pretty much at the moment due to his experience, going to bat a number open, but two and three, which way they're going and it is a shootout. And whoever plays well in those, and I don't have much cricket, whoever plays well in those three field chill games you feel could get selected.

Yeah.

The other bowler I've just remembered, but he hasn't played a test match. But he has the moniker known as the Wild Thing.

To get a Young raw.

He's 27.

He's just had the surgery. Honestly. I played with Lance at the Scorches, so he's wa Bowls.

Right. He's played a couple of first class matches. February and March were his last first class matches.

Yeah, he's literally just pulled out. He was supposed to, he was just in the squad for these white ball games against South Africa and then he had a bad back and he's literally just about, I don't know, he might have had the surgery, gone to New Zealand to have the titanium rod put in his back.

These young fast bowlers, not built like.

The east, do they, but. So he's out. He's done for a year, 12 months because he's had the surgery that Joffre had, that Jason Berendorf's had that a lot of fast. James Pattinson, a lot of these guys have had. So yeah, he's, he's definitely out, out of the, the con. And I think a lot of things, the, the wickets in Australia are much harder than what we have here in England. So the stress, not just your back but your knees, your ankles, whatever it is, it is that much more in Australia because those wickets are, you know, rock hard. Spencer Johnson, another name.

He's also injured, isn't he?

I was just writing that down. I couldn't remember. I couldn't remember.

He felt pretty close to a test run out.

It feels to me he, he's someone that gets injured obviously quite a lot and he's, he's very dangerous white ball bowler as well. And as we know the way that cricket goes nowadays, it's when it, when you weigh it up.

Well, could it be another positive for England in that if the Australian media are so focused on Pat Cummins and his fitness and what might be happening in the early Sheffield Shield games are the England team, could they possibly slip into the country without too much hassle?

No.

And the only thing it has done, I suppose is it's taken a little bit of pressure off Stokesy in one sense that no one's talking about his injury and how we haven't heard anything about his rehab. We hope it's going really well, but again, not all rosy in our camp in terms of our talisman is injured and hopefully on his way back.

Another indication though of how big these ashes are going to be. I mean, we're all ready now. It's, you know, back page sports news. So they're still two months away.

Our thanks to Sir Alistair Cook, Tamar Mills and Jonathan Agnew. Well, that is it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so you don't miss an episode episode, including no Balls with Alex Hartley and now hundred winner Kate Cross. TMS is back for the third and final one day international of the series in Southampton will be on air on 5, Sports Extra and BBC sounds from 10:45 on Sunday morning. We'll see you then.

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