England outclassed at Lord's as McCullum speaks for first time since sacking

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Well, here we are on the outfield at Lord's, uh, with the England and India players in front of us. India having beaten England by 270 runs to win this historic first women's Test match at the home of cricket, which can now claim to be the home of cricket. Now it has staged a women's game here, uh, England having been playing Test cricket in England since 1937 on the women's front. But it's India who have come out on top, having outplayed England really. They began the last day, day 4, needing 4 wickets to wrap up victory. India duly got those inside an hour and 40 minutes. England all out for 186, 62.5 overs for their second innings, having been set a mammoth 457 by India to win. Uh, that was out of the equation once England began losing wickets, uh, on that third day. Sophie Ecclestone making a half century to go with her 5-wicket haul at Cranthy Gaude, 7 wickets in the match. Sneha Rana with the match-winning wicket, 4 for 42 in the second innings and 6 wickets in the match for her. 3 women now featuring on Lord's honours boards, 2 in the away dressing room. Kranti Goud with her 5 for 37, Jastika Bhartia 113, and Sophie Ecclestone, her 5 for 118. I'm with the England captain, Nat Sciver-Brunt. Nat, a big defeat. Just reflect first of all though on this occasion of this historic Test match at Lord's.

Um, yeah, I guess before we started, we knew it was going to be a really special few days, and it has been. I think we've like felt it at different times as a team. I've absolutely loved walking through the long room, and yeah, hopefully we can do that a few more times in the years to come. And yeah, I guess on the game reflecting, we were outplayed in all departments really. We found bits with the bat and found bits with the ball, but couldn't quite put it all together, and India did extremely well. I thought the way Yastika batted yesterday just kept it really simple and, yeah, had us on our heels really.

It was particularly tough moving from the T20 format straight into Test, and you did have a little bit longer, but the bowling first, did the bowlers in particular find it difficult to adjust to that first day, first innings?

Yeah, I'd say obviously the timing, it would have been good if we had a few more days, but yeah, as bowlers we want to trust our skill to be able to change as quickly as we can and adapt as quickly as we can. But like you say, we probably didn't on that first morning, couldn't quite get our lengths right. And then once we did, we were already sort of behind the game, especially in that first innings.

Emotions around the group with the two retirees as well, Tammy Beaumont and Heather Knightbury. Neither of them got the runs they would have wanted in this Test match. But what has this match been like for them?

Yeah, of course they would have liked to have gone out, you know, all guns blazing, maybe a few more runs on the board. But yeah, I think both really happy with their decisions and I guess happy with how they're feeling about the whole occasion. They've loved the 4 days we've had here and they'll be sorely missed from our team. They've obviously had equally long careers and taken the game from you know, pre-professional era to where we are now. Yeah, they, you know, have plenty to be proud of. And as a group, we're certainly proud of what they've been able to achieve.

I mean, looking ahead, Test match cricket is few and far between, but it is vitally important. Multi-format series in particular for an Ashes series. How as a group do you get to a point where you can bat for long periods and just thinking, you know, sort of a 60 innings in the first 60 overs in the first innings, just more than 60 overs in the second innings. But being able to bat to get those big 350, 400 totals, what do you need to do?

I think it's just individually chunking the game down. Everyone has the skill to be able to do it. I think it's just breaking that down. And if somebody thinks about that in overs, somebody thinks about that in time, whatever it is. I guess those are the sorts of things that we chat about as a batting group and, you know, building a partnership together and going big with that. Yeah, I guess, you know, in the way that we might not have adjusted well with the ball, similar things, I suppose, with the bat. But yeah, I think like you say, multi-format cricket is so important in the landscape of what we're doing. We're pretty lucky that we get to play in quite a few different teams in Test match cricket. Yeah, we've also got a big Ashes series next summer, so we'll be preparing well for that.

And there'll be small moments to celebrate within this match, not least having Sophie Ecclestone's name on the honours board at Lord's. Has it already gone up there? Have you penned it in?

Yeah, it's on a bit of tape at the moment. I'm sure in the next few days it will be put on there permanently. But yeah, what an amazing occasion for her to, I guess, produce spells like she did. She obviously bowled for a really long time. But she absolutely loves bowling with the red ball, so it's hard to get that ball out of her hand. But yeah, another 5-for at the home of cricket. Yeah, it would be some special memories made this week.

A few tired bodies right now.

Of course. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

See, we've got some big things to come in the next 7 to 10 days. So yeah, lots of rest and recuperation.

Thanks very much, Nat. Good luck for the rest of the season.

Thank you.

That's the England captain. I'm on the outfield here with two World Cup winners in Alex Hartley and Katherine Siver-Brunt, and Anesha Ghosh here as well, Indian cricket writer and broadcaster. Alex, let me come to you then. I mean, England outplayed.

Where for you—

oh, I'll come back to you, Alex, because Charlotte Edwards is here, England coach. Charlotte, well, what have you made of your reaction, first of all, to the results and the way your team played in what is a one-off but a very special test match?

Yeah, look, just really disappointed, I guess. You know, such a historic test match and probably not to play anywhere near our best over the 4 days. But all credit to India. I thought they played outstandingly well. So yeah, just disappointed. You know, it's been obviously a long, long week after the World Cup final and to not put in our best performance is, yeah, pretty disappointing.

How much time do you ideally need to prepare a team to play a test match?

Longer than what we had. And I think that's, yeah, that's the hard thing. But there's, you know, there's certainly no excuses from our end. It's the same for both teams, albeit India probably had a little bit more time to prepare for this Test match. You know, clearly the goal for us this summer was the World Cup and a lot of our attention and detail had been put into that. And yeah, I guess to end, you know, our summer, albeit that we've got some games against Ireland coming up. Yeah, it's been, it's disappointing, but, you know, I think reflecting on the summer as a whole, hugely proud of what the team achieved.

You've got a couple of players leaving the dressing room now, Tammy Beaumont and Heather Knight. How do you begin to move the team forward, particularly without Heather Knight, of which she's still been a big feature of the white-ball teams?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, obviously, firstly, just want to— what an unbelievable careers they've both had. They're going to be sorely missed by By the dressing room, you know, there's been a few tears over the last, last couple of days. But, you know, their contributions to this team have been unbelievable for a period of time. But I think, I just think it's an exciting opportunity for the young players now within the domestic game, within the England setup, to really, I guess, take hold of that and I guess see an opportunity within the team to now stake their claim for a spot. And I guess that's what I'll be the messaging will be from me moving forward.

How do you see Test cricket fitting into the scheme of women's cricket? So one-off Tests like this sort of work, this was a particular occasion, or they would need to be part of a multi-format series?

Yeah, I believe that there should be. I think there's a place for it, I think. But it has to be part of a, you know, a multi-series bilateral series. So yeah, I think that's something to look at moving forward. Forward because we've certainly enjoyed Test cricket, but you have to have it constantly. You can't play every 18 months and expect performances, and certainly when there's no preparation for it as well. But I'm a huge advocate of it. I think there's so much we can learn from it, and certainly a lot of my planning going into the next summer's Ashes is going to be around our 4-day cricket and making sure that we're in a place, you know, in that first Test match against the Aussies to really compete.

Compete.

Are you an advocate for some sort of domestic 4-day, I guess more than warm-up fixtures, some sort of competition?

Yeah, I think there's so much that can be learned from 3- and 4-day cricket. I really do. I think we've seen here the skills that you need and I think that only helps in other formats of the game. So yeah, that'll be something I'll be taking back and hopefully we can do that. I think we're doing that within our academy setups. They're playing 2-day cricket, which I think is great, but I think we need to see it in probably Tier 1 cricket, and even if that's 2 or 3 games a summer, but getting that exposure for young players, for older players, I think is so important, especially if we continue to play Test cricket.

And going forward across the summer, The Hundred next, then those Ireland matches in September. Do you envisage resting some players for that or do you put out a strong side against an Ireland team that just featured in the T20 World Cup?

I think we need a little bit of time to have a think. There's a lot happened in the, even in the last few days, I think. I think reassess. Yeah. And I think just get some time, certainly for me, some time at home to reflect on what's been, like I say, a really special summer to be part of so many fantastic occasions. And yeah, I just need time to just, I guess, think about where we want to take this team moving forward. But we know we've got a really important 12 months ahead with the Champions Trophy and an Ashes summer next summer.

Thanks, Charlotte.

Good to see you.

Charlotte Edwards, England head coach. Right, Katherine Siverbruns and Alex Hartley, let's go again. Alex, overall, your reflections? Yeah, an amazing occasion, but ultimately for England falling way short on the field.

Yeah, look, I think that there has to be a World Cup hangover on there. You know, you get— you play Sunday, you obviously go out Sunday night with your friends, you have a drink, you let your hair down for a really, really intense month that has been playing in a home World Cup and then not getting over the line. You're off Monday, you're off Tuesday, you only have Wednesday, Thursday to prepare. So realistically, the bowlers aren't going to bowl Wednesday and Thursday. We didn't bowl well enough. We were a little bit off lines, lengths. We didn't attack the stumps enough. We don't play Test cricket enough. England don't play Test cricket enough. Nobody does in women's cricket. So like Charlotte Edwards said, you can't then expect the performances. But England were outplayed in all aspects of the game.

Yeah, true story. Like, it's a disappointing end to a monumental 8 weeks. For one, I've rode every emotion with them. I feel like I'm on tour, so I know what's going on behind the scenes, like the effort, the emotions, I guess the mental toil of it. Obviously India had a significant amount of more time to just pick up that red ball and sort of get used to it and really sort of get the rhythm there. And, and that does count. I know rhythm with bowling is number one. It's the, the most key thing, element to a seam bowler and probably a spin bowler. So for them not to be able to have that and, and come straight from bowling, you know, out the back of the hands, off cutters, to suddenly just trying to hammer a line and length consistently over and over and over again, um, when you've only really had you know, your body's adapted to bowling 4 overs, not 14. And so it's a wild thing, but we were— I would still come, you know, both teams were still pretty much on a level playing field in terms of where they've come from situationally. We just did not bowl well enough, but our girls need to be able to make those adjustments. We should— that should be the basis of their training anyway, is consistency and relentlessness. Business with the ball. Everything after that is, is, you know, an addition. So yeah, they'll be super disappointed but mentally completely drained.

Yeah, it's been a big 8 weeks to say the least. A quick turnaround now, another week until The Hundred starts. But for this match, the occasion of it, Alex, has it been a success staging a Test match here for women at Lord's?

Yeah, by the little blip yesterday, I think it's been amazing. I think the, the women have had full attention, which is absolutely what they deserve. You know, the 4 days of the calendar year is, is, you know, not much to ask for. And they're getting the past players down to ring the bell the morning of the game. 15,000 in on, on Saturday. I think there's about 9 or 10 in yesterday. It has been amazing. The, um, the crowd's been great, the occasion's been great. Look, it's taken too long for England Women to play a Test match at Lord's, but it's happened now, and hopefully it will happen more regularly moving forward. And yeah, a great occasion, and ultimately the best team won, but it's not taken anything away from the occasion that England lost this Test match.

And the significance of having women's names on the honours boards at Lord's Catherine. I mean, names have been up there for One Day Internationals since their famous day in 2017, but on those Test match honours boards, they are now just integrated, and Sophie Ecclestone's name goes down there on the list, and Kranti Gourd and Yastika Bhatia. Now that's a huge significance, isn't it?

Yeah, it is a massive thing. It is something you wish to achieve. If you have a set of goals as a cricketer, that's one of the things you can't deny. That's something you would quite like, and it's definitely something that was on my radar. And the handful of times we got to play here, I managed to do that along with 3 other girls. And if you consider the amount of years that have passed now, um, it is a small number, So it is a massive achievement to do that. So I'm really proud and proud of the way Sophie's played. I'm proud of the way the girls have carried themselves over the 8 weeks, these 8 weeks, because it's been— I can, you know, I didn't get to taste, I guess, massive stardom, but this is stardom now. The amount of people watching them, the eyes on, than the expectation. It has gone through the roof. So it is— we're into a new territory now of mental resilience and how we come through that. So the way they've sort of carried themselves and kept carrying themselves is great, especially if you consider where they finished last time to this. It is a 360, isn't it? So it's all about the future now and where do we go from here?

And we'll pick up on that theme in a moment. But speaking of stardom, Anusha Ghosh, we're seeing Harmanpreet Kaur being interviewed now as the winning captain. In there. The India team have match-winning medals around their neck. Their fans are packing the lower tier of the grandstand. Just give us a sense of the, the following that, that this team and this match and the feats that have been achieved have been followed in India.

Oh, it has been covered fairly well by international press and of course, uh, national press back in India, and social media, which has been such a crucial vehicle for the promotion of women's game since the 2017 World Cup. I remember Twitter had launched captain's emojis during that historic ODI World Cup for the first time, and ever since, the Indian women's cricket team players have become something of household names. The likes of Smriti Mandhana, Jemima Rodrigues, Harmanpreet Kaur, who is having a conversation with the host broadcasters right now as the winning captain. But this match has also produced superstars like a kranti gaad, the revolution. Her name literally translates to revolution, a revolution that Lords will remember for decades and centuries to come. It's one thing to become the first ever woman to have your name on the Lords Test Honors Boards, it's another to become the Player of the Match because she followed up her first wicket, 5-wicket haul, with 2 wickets in the second dig.

And that show— come back to you in a moment. Heather Knight is here, retiring Heather Knight. Heather, it's It's over. Can you believe your international career is at an end?

Yeah, it's obviously had a little bit of time to sink in. Yeah, there's certainly some emotion around obviously the last few days. But yeah, like I said yesterday, it feels like the right time for me. I feel really happy, really content. It's been really cool to obviously play here at Lord's in a Test match. That's just to be part of that history has been amazing. Obviously not the result we were after, but credit to India. They've played unbelievably. They've coped with the demands of Test cricket a little bit better than we have, but Yeah, I feel really proud, really, really special. And yeah, I'm just looking out in the outfield here. We've got all our families and friends, which is a really nice thing. And yeah, it's going to be a good afternoon, sort of sharing with those guys, sharing with people in the dressing room and just, yeah, reliving some memories and I guess saying goodbyes.

Your last Test match is a first for women's cricket to be staged here at Lord's. What are your hopes for what this sets in motion going forward for the game?

Yeah, I hope it's not the last for sure, and I'm sure it won't be. I think it's been a really important thing to tick off. It's been a long time coming to have a Test here, and obviously it's the most historic ground in the country and in the world, really. So yeah, to have a Test match here for women is really important. I think it's been a brilliant occasion. Like, it's been really cool, really fun to play in. I've caught myself looking around quite a lot and just trying to soak it in and Just, yeah, grateful for the people before that have kind of enabled this day to happen. I think on day one, the past players ringing the bell, that was a really lovely, wholesome moment. I think there was a few emotional girls actually that were sort of lining up and singing the national anthem, seeing that and knowing the significance of this moment in time. And yeah, I think the good thing where we're getting to with women's cricket, there isn't that many sort of moments to tick off. And you hope now that it's It's kind of all about the game and the cricket that is played. So yeah, an amazing moment. But yeah, I'm sure it won't be the last Test match here.

I know you would have wanted more runs, but what was it like coming out for your final Test innings, which happened pretty quickly given Tammy Beaumont was out first ball? But can you talk us through what that was like and indeed a guard of honour when you walked off as well?

Yeah, well, like coming out, obviously just I missed the guard of honour for Tammy, so I was making my way through the long room. But yeah, I actually felt like really calm and really normal. Like I really wanted to make sure that final innings I was myself and I was playing how I wanted to. And yeah, I sort of thought I would in that sort of sticky situation, 20 for 3. This is, it's kind of been a bit of a story of my career really. But yeah, unfortunately wasn't able to do what I've done before and go on and get that kind of big innings and help the team out. So yeah, when I did get out, I was obviously just frustrated with my dismissal really. It's quite a classic. Classic night dismissals, head falling over a little bit to the offside. So yes, it was kind of a way that I probably got out a little bit through my career. So the guard of honour was lovely. Obviously credit to India for doing that. And I've played cricket with some of those guys, Ritu, Smriti, Deepti as well. So yeah, really nice for those guys to kind of honour that and yeah, just trying to take it in. I only got emotional when I saluted my parents actually.

I was wondering when that might have come.

Yeah, and then I've had a box a week of my friends and family, so that's been so special to kind of share this moment with the people that have been there on my journey and played a huge part and supported me. And yeah, that was, that was really nice.

And who can you pick out from this group behind us? I know you're going to join them in a moment, but who's here in particular that you want to name check and thank?

Well, obviously my parents, Mum and Dad, have been there from the start, driving me all around the country as a kid and supporting me all over the place. Place. So yeah, obviously them, my partner Tim, and I haven't actually got that many people here today. The box has been full for 3 days, but yeah, it was kind of nice that obviously the moment was there yesterday. But yeah, even like all the friends and family, like looking at Andy Bell, Richie Siv, yeah, like Callum is Tammy's partner, just all that group of people kind of live what we live. All together. And yeah, I think a lot of the families are kind of going to miss my partner Tim more than anything. They were like, oh, they mentioned me, they were like, oh, we're really going to miss Tim. He's kind of the glue that holds everyone together. So yeah, it's a special moment for obviously my family, but all the parents are, I think, yeah, and hopefully we're going to have a few drinks with them and celebrate with them. They've been a huge part of our journey. And I think that's what I've really loved about this summer, obviously at home World Cup. They're so special just because you have so many friends and family around and you get to share that journey and, and that special memories with them. Obviously really disappointed we weren't able to win that trophy here at Lord's last week. But yeah, I think that's one of the special things about cricket is, is the people for me and the characters. So yeah, really nice that everyone's obviously out here able to share it with us as players.

And you're going to be— this is pretty much your home ground now for The Hundred, isn't it? You've got the role with London Spirit. Do you see yourself advancing that sort of administration or coaching side? What direction do you think you're going in the future?

I'm open to try things, to be honest. Obviously, I've been doing the general manager role for sort of 6 months now, and I am really excited. I've really loved doing that, actually. I've always loved being part of shaping teams, and I guess now it's the sort of players and the staff, the teams that I'm shaping. So that's really fun and really excited for that. I'm going to play a little bit more cricket. I'm hoping to play in the Big Bash in particular, and then we'll just sort of go from there. Like, I would like to dip my toe into coaching a little bit and just see what I like and yeah, I think enjoy myself a little bit as well. Like, obviously you don't get a huge amount of time to go on holiday and spend time with friends and family, so I'm going to make sure I have a really good holiday, really enjoy it, and embrace all the opportunities that come my way.

Is your alter ego going to come out a bit more? Because Katherine Zimmerbrunt's been telling us all about that in the last couple of days.

No, Shelley hasn't been out yet, so yeah, we'll see.

Do we need to watch that balcony dressing room Not too much, I think.

I think it's not a day for Shelley. We're at Lord's. Shelley doesn't really belong at Lord's, I don't think. So yeah, we'll see.

Heather, thank you for the memories. Congratulations on your career.

Thanks, Ali. Appreciate that.

Heather Knight, the outgoing former England captain, retiring now from international cricket. I'll have a bit more of a chat here with Anesha. We were speaking about the India team, the occasion India have received their trophy for winning this Test match. Quite a sizable trophy as well for this one-off Test, isn't it? But yeah, the superstar names in this India team. Anusha, a word from you again. You talked about Kranti Gourd, Yastika Bhatti as well, getting her name on the honors board. And she was quite emotional. I interviewed her yesterday. She then came to speak to you. And she's a player who has had to show a tremendous amount of resilience during her career.

Absolutely. And this is such a huge moment for her because Sachin Tendulkar, I think, gifted her something because she was one of the key architects of this victory just before the trophy, trophy presentation happened. And as I was mentioning, the 2025 ODI World Cup triumph for India happened 8 months ago. You saw the likes of Smriti Mandhana, Harmanpreet Kaur, herself, Shefali Verma emerging as bona fide superstars. But what this test match has done is given that aura of stardom brought that on to the likes of Yastika Bhatia and Kranti Ghot. Great stories all around, and I am pretty certain India will be flying back home with their heads held high with the way they've performed here.

They're doing a bit of a lap of honor. They've headed right over to the grandstand where their fans have gathered. You can hear the calls and the shouts, the waving of the arms, the desires for selfies as they show off their trophies and their medals. Tammy Beaumont is here, somebody else who's finished Your international career now, Tammy. We just said to Heather, can you believe it's all over? What's your overriding emotion now that your career is at an end internationally?

Yeah, I guess it's been a surreal week really, ever since I announced it on Wednesday, I think. Yeah, probably not quite the goodbye I was after, but yeah, still an amazing experience to play in the first Test match here at Lord's and yeah, kind of go out in something that was unimaginable in 2009 when I made my debut.

So Donald Bradman ended his career with a duck. Has anybody mentioned that to you?

You're in good company.

Yeah, actually someone must have told my husband yesterday and, uh, probably made it slightly better. But, um, yeah, it was a bit awkward actually when I obviously got the guard of honor. I felt like there was no chance I could raise my bat cuz I hadn't used it, so went with the helmet instead. But, um, yeah, I guess wasn't to be. But, um, yeah, still really proud of the last 17 years and, and being part of a, a really special group for a very long time.

And where do you see your career heading now? You've obviously done a lot of media work already, but what lies ahead?

Yeah, I guess I'm just keeping a lot of open options open. I'm still going to play in the Hundred for Birmingham Phoenix, kind of really looking forward to that. And after that, I guess just kind of look into whatever's open there. Like, obviously love working in the media, and I've been doing a master's in leadership in sport for a couple of years, so I think I'll stay in the game. But yeah, probably See what happens. Might play next year, who knows? I haven't decided yet.

I mean, it seems a fitting end that you do end your career here at Laws, the place where you lifted a World Cup trophy and were Player of the Tournament as well. Will that always stay with you as your career highlight?

Yeah, absolutely. It feels a very long time ago now.

We could talk about the double hundred at Cambridge as well.

Yeah, I've got a few highlights. I actually got asked this in the press conference on Wednesday. And yeah, interestingly, the one I came up with at the time was the game at the Oval last year where I was in charge for the game and that atmosphere and the comeback from the girls. And that win in particular for me, I think, really stands out. And the fact that I kind of got 2 in that game and didn't really do anything is mad that that popped into my head. But yeah, so many amazing memories. And obviously here, yeah, 2017, um, yeah, it's a feeling that I've probably been trying to replicate for 9 years and has kind of eluded us in a way. But, um, Yeah, I guess amazing to go down with that piece of history.

Yeah, you can be very proud, Tammy. Thank you for the memories down the years as well. Congratulations on your career. We'll look forward to still watching you play domestically.

Thank you. Thanks, Ali.

Tammy Beaumont, who's also nursing a lovely bottle of champagne that's got Tammy Beaumont written in gold lettering on it as well. 261 international matches, final appearance, Lord's Test, 10th to 13th of July 2026 engraved on the front. Lovely, Tammy. Well, when you drink it, you're going to keep the bottle yet?

Yeah, be drink aware everyone. Drink in moderation. And yeah, obviously I'll be keeping the bottle.

Good messaging.

Yeah, I actually don't love champagne, so this will probably just be a special occasion.

I think you might find a few people will be willing to share it with you. Tammy Boehm one who's there. Catherine, where does the team go from here? Because we've just spoken to Heather Knight. Tammy hasn't featured in the white ball games this year. Heather Knight has, so she leaves a hole, certainly. Where do you see the team heading? They've got a bit of time before the next internationals against Ireland.

Yeah, there's, there's many angles, isn't there? I think they've already sort of shown their face, you know, their cards a little bit with Jodie Grewcock. Obviously Maya Boucher, just when she has stepped back into the domestic scene, has scored loads. I know Dani White-Hodge, you know, she's not a young pup anymore, but she's just shown us she she's not about to stop or slow down. So I know she's dying to get back into the one-day team on a consistent basis. So that's an option, but whether or not, you know, Lottie wants to go in that direction, who can say? That conversation's probably going to be had over this winter, I imagine, at some point. And then there's, you know, many, many more options. There's a lot of girls standing up now. Maddy Villiers is proof of that. She's performed consistently well, um, MVP of the month consistently, and ended up back in this test team. She's so happy to be back, and she did take her opportunity. We saw the resilience of her with the bat. She bowled very well, especially in her first spell. So I think in the Ireland series, Lottie said that she actually doesn't know if she wants to sit down and think. I think she'll have a pretty good idea, right? And what I'd like to I would like to see her play what she believes is her best one-day team, and off the back of the one— because it is probably the one days you would focus on— would then be your staple team for the Ashes series that's coming up. I think she should play her best team. You always see that as a chance to rest people, but I've never really believed in that because they are sometimes confidence boosters that you need to pump into people when they are your last games before your next international games, a long period of time after the fact. So yeah, I hope she plays her best squad, um, to— and gives them confidence and potentially rotates those 15 players over those 3 games. So we'll see.

Alex, think you're of the mind that probably wouldn't be the best team put out against Ireland? Would you give a few players a rest? I guess particularly some of the bowlers after the lengthy period of activity opportunity they would have had.

Yeah, I can completely see where Katherine's coming from, having been a player that consistently got rested against the lesser teams. And it's really frustrating, you know, she could have probably had another 100 wickets to her name and we would be having different conversations. So I do completely understand where Katherine's coming from. I just think post-100, the likes of Lauren Bell, who might just be carrying a little niggle, who's played a lot of cricket, maybe a great time for her to be rested. But will Nat Sciver-Brunt play? Charlie Dean captain, they're all questions that Charlotte needs to sit down and have a think about with, you know, they will want to play. Of course they want to play. Any time you get the opportunity to pull on an England shirt, I mean, I have no doubt that the girls that got rested for this Test match are gutted. You know, they'll be absolutely gutted. They'll want—

they'll—

a historic day at Lord's playing a Test match. Charlie Dean, Freya Kemp, Dani Gibson will all be thinking, you've got to be joking. Why am I resting now? I can rest afterwards. But Yeah, look, this team is going to have to go through a journey. Will they dip in form with the loss of Tammy Beaumont and Heather Knight? Probably very briefly. I think they're lucky that they're playing Ireland next in those ODIs and England can have a look at a few. But, you know, a great time for the likes of Jodie Greencock to show what she's about.

Yep.

The Ireland series in September. There's a Champions Trophy T20 in February.

That's about a 2-week tour.

Tournament in the second half of that month. Then a West Indies tour in, I believe it's April, where it's scheduled to have a Test match. Whether that goes ahead, because the West Indies Test that they were due to play against Australia was cancelled. It was billed due to the fact that they wanted to focus on their white ball performances. But with West Indies, you never know financially. It's a stretch for them to host Test matches as well. So whether that match will take place, at the moment it's scheduled to, and then the Ashes, Katherine. So in terms of the Test team as well, albeit so few has played— and I put this to Nat Silverbrunt— but there is such an importance on them because if you're going to win an Ashes series, you sort of need to be able to perform in a Test match because of the weighted point system. So where therefore are you able to put your resources to make sure that you're upskilling for a Test match, albeit a very infrequent one, as much as you are with your white ball?

Yeah, and I think Lottie touched on what they could do between now and then and potentially have those 2-day games, 3-day games with the Red Bull. They'll certainly— they certainly can introduce some Red Bull stuff in, in, into training. It's so difficult because it's just not the same. Duke's ball, I never got to bowl with it, but it is quite different. Yeah, not to mention different viewpoints, different, you know, color background, sight screens, These are all things you need to get used to, etc. So yeah, there's a lot to think about. And there's also, shall I go to the WBBL in Australia for 6 weeks? Because for some reason they haven't learned their lesson yet in that amount of time away. Not the English girls, the CA, Cricket Australia, thinking that our athletes these days, in this day and time, with how much is required of them that that amount of time is okay. It's not, it's not okay. Some franchises have it spot on. The Hundred is a spot-on amount of time. The IPL has become a better amount of time. One, you know, we— you have to make it realistic when it's at the other side of the world for some people. So there'll be questions there whether or not they go, you know, not so much. There's got to be that focus on your mental health.

Too.

So it's a strange period of time, isn't it? And there's two series there you've just mentioned of February and April. That doesn't happen every year at all. That's almost an empty window, isn't it?

So, and the degree to which Nat Sciver-Brunt is able to come back and bowl, because in terms of that one-day side, that crucial balance.

Well, that's the important thing, right, about having— so when I used— when I played at the beginning, long time ago, time ago, we had those periods of time at winter. So if you had something to work on, you need 3 months, right, to work on something. It doesn't take a couple of training sessions. You need— if you're changing your arm position, uh, your position at the crease, your feet, how your alignment— that takes months. So me and her have had a discussion about whether it's right for our family, mental health, and actually, those aside, why don't you just Just take 2 minutes to work on something for once instead of bouldering from one series to another, to another, to another franchise, to another. Like, let's just take 2 minutes and let's— if you want to learn how to be even better, because that's why you retire sometimes, right? You lose your spark, you lose your will to get up again, you lose yourself to change, to find another gear in your career, because at 35 you're like, well, I think I should stop because everyone says I Well, actually, if you find yourself with a winter, you can actually reinvent yourself a little bit and get a bit better if that's possible. So it's all about the willpower and the desire to, but there is that opportunity there for a few now that they're quite well paid to not have to take opportunities for money. It's actually going to now be about, shall I up myself?

And that's quite a shift, isn't it, for those who do have the opportunity? To play WPL and to play Big Bash cricket. It's an amazing shift. Right, we're being joined by Sneha Rana, who took the match-winning— Come on in, Sneha, have a chat. Alison, lovely to meet you.

Thank you so much.

How was it at the end then, striving for that final wicket and for you to now be at the centre of such an historic moment at Lord's?

First of all, I'm so glad that I took that wicket because before that, all of them were going for the DRS and I was like, oh my God, always missing, missing. Then finally I got one, so I'm really grateful that we won the first ever Women's Test here at Lord's. So I'm grateful for that.

And just how well have you been supported by the bowling attack around you during this match?

They were all brilliant, starting from Kranti Gawde, then Saheeli, Deepti, and Charni. They all bowled really brilliant, so our bowling attack was fabulous.

What is it like in the dressing room at the moment, knowing that you've got not one but two players on that honours board now.

Uh, honestly, uh, we are very privileged to share the dressing room with all of them and, uh, so honoured and so glad that our two players, first time they came, the name come up to the honours board. We have seen the men's players there in the honours board, but now the women's are also there, so really grateful for that.

You know, one player who's not on the law World's Honours Board is Sachin Tendulkar. You met him this morning, didn't you? What did he have to say to you? What was that conversation?

He was like, just stay hungry and humble and just give your best. I am here to support you guys.

Yeah.

As a team, what can you say about the way Harmanpreet has led you? So through a World Cup campaign, the T20 World Cup did not go as you would have wanted as a team. So how has she responded?

She has always been brilliant and she has always been supporting and she always supports the young talent as well. You know, Kranti God in her mentorship, she has grown really well and we are all grateful and hope she continues to do things.

What's it been like just now going to greet your fans?

They are so lovely and they have come in huge numbers. I have only said that come in huge numbers, so they have came here in really huge numbers and I'm so grateful and happy that everywhere we go, the Indian fans are always there to support us. So thank you so much.

Sinead, congratulations on the victory. You've taken part in history. Great to have a chat.

Thank you so much. Thank you.

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The cricketing summer continues this week with England's men taking on India in an ODI series, with all the games live on Test Match Special. The first matches with Brendan McCullum as solely the white ball coach after losing the test job, and he's been speaking with our correspondent Stefan Schemelt.

Brendan, after everything that's happened over the weekend, how are you?

Yeah, I'm fine, thanks, Stefan. Obviously initially I was pretty, I guess, disappointed when I got the tap on the shoulder, but you know, I totally respect the decision. I think it's the results business, and unfortunately we weren't able to get the results we wanted, and And for that, I'm sorry.

You say you're sorry and you say it's a results business. Is it something that you expected? What, the— The decision that came to remove that part of the job from your brief.

I feel like I can kind of understand a little bit of 3D chess and you can kind of work things out as they're nearing the point. But I have total respect for all those that are in positions at the ECB. Kisi, Richard Gould, Richard Thompson, the whole of the board and all those who sit within ECB. I think it's a wonderful organisation. They've given me an immense amount of support over the last 4 years, and there's difficult decisions that need made sometimes in professional sport. And I totally respect the decision, and I thank everyone for the support that I've had over the time that I've been in this privileged position of being England men's Test head coach. No, I've had a great time. It's been one of the highlights of my time in this game. I've been involved in 20-odd years. I feel incredibly humbled to have had the opportunity and thank everyone that supported us and all the fans that supported this team as well.

Why did you feel the need to apologize?

I just— I don't think we got what we wanted, really. I think, you know, we fundamentally— you want to be winning the big series, I think. I mean, you and I have spoken about this already. India and Australia, the marquee series, and if you don't win those, then unfortunately, you know, you haven't quite been able to achieve what you wanted to. And I thought we had opportunities in both against both of those quality oppositions. And, you know, we achieved some good stuff over the 4 years, but fundamentally, you know, the results didn't quite live up to it at the back end of it, and hence the decision that was made.

Do you have any regrets?

Ah, look, I think for me it's— I look back on the time fondly and thank everyone that was involved in it, you know. I think there's been moments where things could have turned various ways and we might be sitting here with a different kind of discussion, but you can't live in those sorts of moments either. You're just grateful for the opportunity, grateful for the relationships and the efforts that everyone's put in. And now I guess for me it's a matter of sort of focusing all my attention and all my enthusiasm and the knowledge that I have of these players and the game and English cricket into the white ball to try and ultimately get us in a position where we're able to lift trophies and be a great representation, not just on the field but also off the field for the English fans and for all those that support the English cricket team.

We've spoken a lot about the informal approach that you like to adopt. Was there a time during those 4 years that the informality was really suitable and then maybe after a while it wasn't quite as suitable?

Yeah, look, I think there's always different approaches and my approach was pretty clear throughout. You're always looking to try and evolve and emerge and do things slightly differently and keep them, I guess, improving as a team and as a group. You know, there was times where you make decisions and you hope that they work out for you. And sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. But ultimately, you know, I'm the one that was in charge of the environment. I'm the one that was in charge of the results and leading these guys. And if your results aren't there, then you have to take accountability for it. And I have no problem doing that. You know, I've loved my time, but fundamentally the results weren't good enough.

You guys put so much into the Ashes and got a result that you didn't want. You came back, you reviewed yourself, Ben, Rob were back to stay on. But ultimately, were you guys just not able to move on from what happened in Australia?

Oh look, Australia obviously wasn't what we didn't get the outcome we wanted there. I thought we did make some nice change and some good evolution and tried to implement a few other different tactics and different sort of tweaks to the environment. We obviously got beaten by a good New Zealand side and And again, that heaps more pressure on the results. And at some stage, you know, someone's got to be responsible for that. And I put my hand up and will wear that.

Have you heard from Ben Stokes?

Yeah, of course I have. I speak to— I got some nice messages from Stokesy, actually. And in a, I guess, romantic kind of way, there's something about Stokesy and I going out together, which, you know, we started it together and we go out together. I have no problem with that.

I guess we thought that you might go out together just in 18 months' time at the end of the Ashes.

Sometimes you don't always get what you want, right? But that's just life. And, you know, it doesn't mean you're not disappointed and you're not a bit gutted about it. But I understand. I do understand the sport and I understand it is a results business. And if your results aren't up to it, then it's time for someone else.

When you got that tap on the shoulder that you mentioned and got asked to carry on as the white ball coach, Was there ever any thought in your mind that you wouldn't carry on and you'd just leave both jobs completely?

Oh, look, it was pretty clear from the communication that, you know, that they wanted me to stay on in the white ball role. And they pointed to some of the recent success with the T20 side in particular. And we know that we've got some work to do with our one-day side. The good thing about that is that there's a lot of familiarity from the T20 team now runs into the white— into the one-day side. So we've got some areas we want to improve. I'd love us to continue to improve, to become a fitter, stronger, faster, smarter team that's able to play in all conditions and be competitive around the world against different oppositions and ultimately succeed and lift trophies. And that's the kind of ambition I've got, the enthusiasm for it. My commitment, enthusiasm has never wavered. But now I guess the focus is going to be able to be put on the white ball side. And I'm enthused by it. I'm excited by it. I think we've got a good opportunity and I look forward to the challenge.

Yesterday, Richard Gould said to us that he thought the direction of travel would be to have split captaincy across the red ball and the white ball formats. That would lead to a problem if Harry Brook is potentially the next Test captain. He's your white ball captain. What's your read of that situation? Situation?

Well, I can't speak for the test coach, but from in terms of the white ball, I mean, I think hands off Harry Brook in terms of if there's going to be split captains from your point of view. I think there'll be lots of robust conversations throughout. I think, you know, we're all, both myself with the white ball and whoever takes over the red ball, ultimately there's going to be harmony across all three teams because we're going to want what's best for English cricket. There will be times where there is some conversations and robust conversations around whether it be captains or players or staff or scheduling that we'll have to work through. And I have no problem working through those things. I think you know my thoughts on Harry and what I— my affection for him, not just as a player, but also as a person and a leader. I think he's got one of the best tactical brains I've seen and someone particularly who's only still relatively young. And I think he's developing at an incredible speed as a leader. So, you know, I love working with Harry and I'd love to continue to do so.

We know why split coaching works sometimes. It is incredibly difficult for one person to do all three formats. You found how busy you've been in the past 18 months. But also when there is split coaching, sometimes one team can feel sidelined. There can be discussions over players' availability, schedules, all those sorts of things. How do you see that going forward?

Yeah, that is one of the things we need to work through. And, you know, there's a bit to unpick as well. This is all obviously relatively fresh. So there's, you know, once the Test coach is put in the post, then we'll sit down and we'll work collaboratively to try and work out, you know, what is right for all three forms of the game and what's right for English cricket. I expect that to be robust but hopefully a profitable conversation for everyone because fundamentally we just got to get what's right for English cricket and that'll be the number one motivation.

Just as a final thought, how do you reflect on the past 4 years? Favorite moments, worst moments?

Look, I reflect with fondness, to be honest. Very privileged to have been in this position for 4 years, to be running England men's Red Bull side for 4 years, it's a role I've never taken for granted. I feel incredibly grateful for the opportunity, humbled by the position that I held and respectful of everything that comes with it. I love some of the the moments we were able to achieve and some of the times that weren't quite what we wanted as well. You have to wear those. But, you know, this is top-level sport and you have challenges and you have great ambitions and goals. Sometimes you get there and sometimes you don't. But I've really enjoyed it and I want to thank everyone that has supported this team and has backed us all the way along for doing so.

I remember that day you walked into Lord's and you were surprised by how many journalists were there. You said that you don't tend to get that back in New Zealand. Is there anything that you wish you knew then that you know now?

I'm sure there's lots of things, right? But I'm not going to tell you, Stephen. I think for me, you know, that first day we did walk into Lord's and there was 60-odd journalists, whatever, there. I thought it was amazing because that gives you an unbelievable platform to be able to sell the game. Ultimately, there's so many options for people when they turn on the TV or they're paying paying for a ticket price, whether it be football, rugby, rugby league, whatever it is, you know, and for them to choose cricket, they need a platform. They need ability to be able to decide on what it is that grabs them most. And, you know, I've always enjoyed that about this job is that it's so relevant, it's well supported, It's well resourced and it's well covered. And I think that's— it can have its challenges, but I've never been one to shy away from those. But I've also respected the fact that we have a great platform to be able to try and sell the game, and long may that continue.

Thanks for your time.

Thanks, Stefan.

Well, that's Brendan McCullum with Stefan Schemelt. And TMS is back on Tuesday at 10:45 for England versus India, the first ODI from Edgbaston. And if you subscribe now on BBC Sounds You won't miss any of our podcasts.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

There's this song, when it gets to a bit, the whole place goes, so good, so good, so good. You gotta do the arm bit too. So funny. I love that bit.

We know that feeling. Oh!

The FIFA World Cup 2026.

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He's widely recognized as one of the greatest footballers in history.

He's won the prestigious Ballon d'Or award 5 times.

He's the all-time leading goalscorer in professional football.

And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status.

Guess who we're talking about yet?

That's right. Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo.

That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service.

Listen now wherever you get your BBC podcasts.