England seal series with record Lord's ODI total

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

So England have won this series by 2 matches to 1. They've beaten India by 27 runs at Lord's. 387 for 3, played 360 for 7. 100 for Duckett, 100 for Rohit Sharma. India in the game, but ultimately the chase a bit too much for them. Butler's innings of 41 from 13 balls, absolutely crucial at the back end of England's innings. It just made that target for India so difficult. It would have been the second highest successful run chase in the history of one-day international cricket. And Curran picked up 4 wickets. Bethel bowled well as well, and India were closed out. I've got Jonathan Agnew with me, I've got Alistair Cook with me, I've got Deep Dasgupta with me. Just, uh, Deep, first up, Indian reflections on today in the series.

Well, today, obviously, I mean, it was a good run chase, no two ways about it. And I mean, in that run chase for a very, very long time, only maybe the last 10 or overs where it looked a little difficult for India. But good to see Rohit, uh, after whatever's happened last couple of days and all that, noise around this, around the team, uh, coming out and getting another 100 and a vintage Rohit Sharma 100. But having said that, I mean, the last month or so, starting from that Ireland trip of the T20 series, this has been a quite a disappointing, you know, last, last month for India and Indian cricket. I mean, quite a few things that they need to kind of ponder over and, and maybe relook Some of the decisions that they've taken in terms of selection, in terms of the combination that they've played, just looking at the last 3 games as in this ODI series, again going with 5 bowlers and, and 4 seamers and not getting in, not exploring the option of Kuldeep Yadav in any one of these ODIs. I mean, yeah, it's a little baffling. Yeah, but then Yeah, I mean, questions will be asked, they are being asked, and, and to be fair, there should be. If you just win 1 game in, in the last 10, uh, it's, it's only fair that, uh, you know, those questions are, are being asked.

Rohit Sharma today coming out making 138, so just quashing any thoughts of this will be his last game, do you think?

To be fair, and I say this somewhere else, I was like, listen, all these speculations are based on media reports, right? There's only 1 official statement that has come out, that has come out from the secretary of BCCI, and he's categorically said what he said. So I think everything else are rumors and speculations. And, and maybe, I mean, maybe things were spoken, maybe not. But then I, I think it's only— I mean, it's, it's unfair to keep, keep going on that tangent and just leave it alone. And I guess this innings again tells you he's still got it in him. But in terms of performances, yeah, I mean, I think India is going to play another 20-odd games before the World Cup. And performance is key for everyone. It doesn't matter who is— I mean, it could be Shubman Gill himself, or could be Virat, or anyone. I mean, for 20 games you've got to keep, uh, you know, producing, uh, performing.

And no Bumrah today as well. He's got a player that's gonna have to be managed. He wasn't quite fit enough for this crucial game today.

Yeah, and what is surprising, obviously Bumrah's got this knee niggle, woke up with it. But then this series, there are quite a few of, of the guys who were out of action because of hamstring. And I'm like, I'm thinking, okay, I can understand one or two players, but if it's Harshid Rana, Varun Chakravarti, Washington Sundar— we saw Shubman struggling with that hamstring last couple of games, this one included. We saw Rohit as well after though he got his hundred. So I, I don't know. But, but yeah, I mean, obviously Bumrah is, is a massive, massive miss for this game. Uh, could have been a different story, uh, and hopefully so in the end because India were like, as like I thought before as well, would be 30-40 short. They did better than that, but then yeah, I mean, you definitely miss Bumrah.

Jonathan, have England turned the corner in One Day International cricket, do you think?

I like the way they've played. I mean, I know they lost the first game, and I'm thinking more of sort of the McCullum era, if you like. I think they've, they've played intelligent cricket. The first two games, I didn't do the second one, but the The first 2 games were almost like also old-fashioned one-day international cricket in a way, and they worked hard for that. And that's been a criticism that's been leveled at McCullum's England over the last couple of years, that they haven't necessarily done that. Now you look at who it was, it was Joe Root. So that again, you wonder, um, you know, if that's a wider responsibility throughout the whole team, because that's just the way that Joe Root plays. But I, I mean, I'm pleased for McCullum actually. I mean, he's, he's He's been through the wringer, hasn't he? He's lost part of his job, uh, he's had a terrific T20 series, and now, you know, he's won this series as well. And, you know, I think people who know him will be pleased that, that that's, that's what's worked out well for him. Have they turned a corner? Um, it's interesting, isn't it? I mean, the, the length of the tail still worries me a bit. And if you look, you know, they talk about India and their lack of bowling variety. We've got a huge amount of variety. They could almost— you could almost get another batsman in there somewhere. Um, but you know, otherwise, to, to lose the first game in a 3-match series and come back and win it shows character, um, and hopefully builds, builds confidence. You know, it's such a fickle business. One day cricket, you get on a losing roll, you can lose 4 or 5 before you know it. But so to lose the first game of the series and come back and win that series of 3 matches is a good effort.

If you looked at this series before, England just come off a a tough New Zealand series. Doom and gloom about English cricket, everything's a horrible place. This is a big two series, because actually facing the number one side in the world, and then Indian side who play a lot of T20 cricket. I was doing something and they— someone came up, there's four sides which are— this Indian T20 could beat everyone else. And actually, England thumped India in the T20, and they've won there. So credit where credit's due for England. And, uh, it was— if they'd have lost these both series, you know, the pressure on that England— all the England setup ramps, actually. I think we all know that in this England setup there's a huge amount of talent. I think in, but in all three formats. I think over the last two or three years, two years in particular, I think the eye, the attention to detail has been taken, you know, has gone, and they haven't got things right off the field in particular, and that's relayed onto the field. What we've watched here, and you can You never want to then say, well, England only won because India— actually, India look really tired. When the two games I've seen them, they haven't— end of a massive IPL series and all that kind of stuff, they haven't actually been at the races. But you can only beat what's in front of you. And the way England have played, I have been really impressed. And I think it just gives me encouragement that actually all the bad stuff we've been saying about this England side in— it's only in Test cricket, actually. Right, fundamentally England have got some fantastic cricketers and I love watching them generally play. If they can get this next bit off the field right, they've got 4 weeks now in the Hundred and get— start getting there, everything lined up better than it has been, I genuinely think this England side can go and do some really good things. And that's what, that's what I've looked at here. But over the next couple of weeks there's some really big important decisions which need to be made. They need to be made well. With some future— looking in the future as well, like not just picking for here and now in terms of the management side. I'm talking about the management of this England side because when I look at these players, I think, well, they can adapt, they can do this, they can do that, certainly in the short-form game. And then they've got a bit more improvement in the Test match cricket, but we know how well they can play.

It is interesting you talk about long-term. It's actually very tempting to look at short-term, isn't it? Ashes, World Cup. It's very, it's very tempting just to look at that, you know. So you're looking at one year, but you, you really think that they should be looking well ahead.

Let's go back to Alison Mitchell. She's got the England captain with her.

I do. Harry, congratulations on the series win. What for you is the most satisfying aspect of this victory?

Winning.

Uh, what a game then. What a lot of runs.

Yeah, it was an unbelievable game. Uh, I just love the way that we went about with the bat. I thought the way that Beth and Ducky started the innings and set the platform extremely well. Beth unfortunately didn't get the 3 figures, but I thought his innings was outstanding. And then Ducky was phenomenal as well. It didn't even look like taking a risk in the first 20 overs, and they managed to pile the score on. And then the way that Rooty and Jos finished the innings off as well was unbelievable. Yeah, they used all their experience and their nous to get us to a score which we could defend.

Yeah, the platform being one thing, but to continue that— and Jos hadn't scored so many runs of late, so for him to come out and score at that pace must have been a particular fillet for him and the team.

Well, everybody knows how powerful he is and how feared he is as well. He's been an unbelievable T20 cricketer for so many years and one-day cricketer. So yeah, that'll be a little bit of a— it'll be nice for him to get that innings under his belt going into the rest of the ODIs that we've got going in the future. And the way that the boys bowled as well, we stuck at it, we bowled really well. They had a hell of a batting performance as well. I was stumped at a few stages of the innings and the lads stuck to it. We stayed in the game for as long as we could, and we believed the whole way.

It seemed to be a bit of a masterstroke when you brought on Jacob Bethell to bowl. How did that maneuver come about in your mind?

I went off for an over, I spoke to Baz, Baz said, why don't you give Bethell a go? He ended up bowling 7 overs, and yeah, that was, yeah, that was a crucial part in the game.

And even though when Virat Kohli was still going, is there still a little bit of that Kohli factor in the back of your mind that while he was there, you know, there's still an outside chance for India?

There always is with a player like him. He's been a phenomenal player for so many years. And yeah, we— as soon as we got him, it was, it was a kind of a bit of a relief and nice to see him walking off. But yeah, I just thought that the, the belief and the energy that we had throughout the game was top draw.

And what does it say about where you are as a team, your relationship with Brendan McCullum, and, and as a unit now to have beaten India across T20s and ODIs?

Well, India were number one ranked in the T20s and we managed to beat them 4-0, which was a phenomenal effort again. And then In the ODIs, they were top and probably still are top. So to beat the number one side twice in the space of a couple of weeks just shows how much belief that we do have as a side and the camaraderie that we have. And the communication has been outstanding. I've said it so many times between coaches and players, getting information onto the field has been a saving grace, really.

Is that quite an important component of your relationship with Baz? You can have that communication mid-match. You can then implement things on the field like we saw with Bethel today.

Definitely. They've got a different view from up there. They can see on the TVs what, what's happening on the pitch. I can't really see that. I'm mid-off or extra cover. You get a little bit of a gauge, but he's getting a better view up there. He's got the analyst in Rupert as well who's giving him different details on the surface and what's working and what's not. So getting that communication onto the pitch has made a massive difference.

Their presentations are starting. Just a word on Sam Curran and his bowling as well. He seems to be turning into a bit of a handy sort of part left-arm spinner at times there.

Yeah, he's, he's been awesome as well for us since, well, since he came back into the squad really. He's been a very vital player for us. He loves it standing up in the big moments as well, and he loves getting funky and changing things. And he's, he's bowled really well today to get 4 for on that surface, which looked like a very good batting wicket. Um, yeah, phenomenal effort, phenomenal batting effort from you all, and bowling as well.

Congratulations on the series win.

Thank you.

Cheers.

Okay, time for some more reaction now, and Ben Duckett Ben Smith, who made a fine hundred today, has been speaking to Alison Mitchell.

Ben, congratulations. What an innings, first of all, and the win to go with. I imagine it's a very happy dressing room.

Yeah, I mean, the win is all we wanted today. I mean, we had an opportunity to beat the best side in the world and we've done that. So to do that at a packed Lord's and have a game like that where for 90+ overs of the day, it was, you know, either side could win. So yeah, incredibly proud of the team.

You've broken a record that was held by Sir Viv Richards. How does that sound for the highest ODI score on this ground?

That's pretty cool, I guess. He was an incredible player. So yeah, sorry, Viv, I shouldn't be going past him.

How much did you enjoy that partnership with Jacob Bethell and throughout the series with him having been promoted and asked to open alongside you?

Yeah, it's worked pretty well. You know, we put on 50 at Edgbaston. You know, I got out first ball the next game, which can happen at the top of the order, but You know, going in today, I think we've just, you know, we've been building a partnership for a while. You know, he's at number 3 in Test cricket and we put on 180 at Trent Bridge in that Test match. So that was probably the nicest thing going into this, that yeah, we get on really well as mates and feels like we're complementing each other as well at the top of the order.

At the halfway stage as a team, are you still very wary of the capabilities that India had with the bat? Given even the total that you had on the board?

I mean, yeah, like no game's done when you've got, you know, Rohit Sharma, Virat Kohli, and Shubman Gill and all these guys. So, you know, we knew that if we bowled well, I think we felt like it was too many runs and we were in a great position to win the game. But as they showed their class there, you know, they were never out of it until the very end. So, you know, we bowled extremely well at times in that, and they played extremely well as well. But, you know, a big mention to Sam Curran there to get the 4 wickets that he did and show his bravery and his skills that he's used so well in the T20 stuff to pick up those wickets at the back end kind of killed the game for us.

What is the unity like in the dressing room at the moment, having the team come through the T20s and then now into an ODI series win, given it's been quite a, I guess, a tumultuous kind of summer with a lot of changes going on in the background?

Yeah, I mean, if you'd have— it can't have really gone much better than the last few weeks. First of all, the T20 guys to win that 4-0 against a very good India side, and then, you know, for us to beat that team 2-1, I mean, especially after going 1-0 down, it's just been an incredible few weeks. And, you know, now we've done that, it's about, you know, putting more consistent performances in there moving forward.

And, you know, we look forward to Sri Lanka now at the end of the Well, India fought hard, but ultimately it was England who won the match and won the series. Let's hear from India's captain, Shubman Gill, also speaking to Alison.

Shubman Gill with me. Shubman, you gave it a good go with the bat in a match that produced nearly 750 runs. Where did you need to be better today?

I think we didn't bowl well in the power play to start with, and I think in the last 3 overs we gave away 62 runs. You know, they were already, I think, ahead in the game, and then if you give 60 orders in the last 3 overs, you know, that's where I think the game went too much ahead of us.

How difficult is it to contain the batters when they are going like they were on a pitch like this?

Very difficult, you know, especially also with the— with four fielders being in on these kind of wickets. Once if you don't take wickets, you know, there is very less chance of you creating any sort of pressure, and that's what happened with us, you know. We were not able to create any pressure and Chasing is a bit different because there's a target on board, so there's always pressure on you. There's a target pressure. But when you're batting first, you know, you obviously want to maximize your runs. So in terms of that, you know, we had a bit of pressure chasing 390, and but we were, I think, right in the game up until 42-43 overs. But we always knew, you know, getting 130 runs in the last 10 overs would be difficult.

And amazing innings from Rohit Sharma. Has he shown that he still has plenty to offer for this team?

Yeah, definitely. I think the way he played was a treat to watch. You know, I got the best seat for most part of his innings and the way he was batting, you know, I think he calculated the, the run chase magnificently.

And how are you? Is it a bit of cramp or is there something muscular going on?

No, that was just a bit of a cramp.

And Virat Kohli, a word for him as well, because also when he was still there, you must have always felt there was still a chance. But the contributions of both of those players over so many years, you could sense that there was a treat for the crowd to watch them both in the middle at the same time together.

Yeah, definitely. I mean, both of them have been the backbone of for Indian batting for a long period of time, you know, and watching them from outside, how they were playing, was really a treat to watch.

Best of luck going forward, Shivnan. Thanks for your time.

Thank you.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

What do they need in a new coach?

That's quite a big question, but the first, the first thing that it seems as you know, Brendan's here to do the one-day side, is to be able to forge a relationship with Brendan McCullum. Because, you know, with Brendan McCullum and Mott, you had— it didn't, you know, both, you know, one side flew and the other side people weren't quite so happy with. And that's going to be the real issue to get right. Because if one side is— everyone's really happy and they're winning and it's one culture, and then the other culture is so different and it's, you know, a totally different thing and the results don't go so well, So what do you mean, the test team quite like quite strict and then the one-day team quite free-flowing? Well, I think Baz is not going to change his ways because he's quite clear. He said, this is how I coach, and he's done it for 4 years. And if that's what the ECB want, and clearly they've got rid of him for one role but they still want him around and they're quite happy for that, that's up to the leadership. So they're happy with it. So, but Brendan's not changing. So therefore, then trying to work out another coach who will come in, his idea is to then work And then it splits the players. This is why it's such an important decision. And maybe I'm going to say I'm a little bit different to Aggers. They might have to go short term for a year. They might have to go, right, because one short-term test coach, well, for a year or so, because Brendan at the minute, I mean, this is Brendan's contract to the end of the World Cup, which is a year's time. So, you know, you might have to then go for a coach who can work with Brendan McCullum for that year and they go, right, you've got with Brendan, you've got the World Cup and you've got the Ashes. You work out a plan, and we're not too bothered about that, but they have to be able to work together, but not just be mates either. They can't just say be Steven Fleming because he's a mate of Brendan, then it works. Because I think it has been a bit too matey-matey and things have been allowed to happen. So this is why I don't— it might be short-term for a year and then they reassess, but it's so important that this decision is right.

And you think it's right that it's coach then captain and not captain and then coach? I mean, think that So when, when McCullum and Stokes came together, it was captain first and then they chose a coach. Who's the most influential? Who's, who's the person who really does call the shots these days? Is it the coach or the captain?

I think in this Test team with the current players available to play, I think it's the coach because you haven't got one, I would say, standout leader in that. So as in like someone, if you asked, you went around today and asked a lot of people, who do you think should captain the Test side, there would be quite a few different opinions, and, and everyone's entitled to their opinion. So I think the coach is going to have to come in, and then he decides who's going to captain. I think Harry Brook has captained really nicely tactically in, in all the games I've seen. I don't think it's just whether he can do all three formats, whether he can handle— because when you become Test captain, you become a different ambassador for different things. And whether, you know, people have to decide whether Harry is ready for that. I think on the field He's grown up loads and interviews a lot better than he did. Like, I, I have no issue Harry Brook tactically captain, and just someone might say that's too big a job for him at this stage in his career. So this is why I think at this stage of this group of players, you need the England— you need the coach first for him to then decide.

What's it like doing all of it?

Yeah, I mean, I never did all of it. I did 2 out of the 3. You know, it's a real—

it's—

you have no time off. The one thing Harry has said though, he's not chasing franchise cricket for a minute. He's purely focused on English cricket, which is great. He's got a lot, a lot of— he's such a good player that you genuinely think he's not gonna have too many dips in form over all three things because he's so good. So I'm just intrigued. I mean, I'm in one sense glad I don't have to make the decision because it's that hard decision to get absolutely spot on.

Some people listening to this, we're saying, well, Hold on, they're two completely separate, separate roles, Test and, and one-dayers. But I mean, there has to be that kind of working together. You mentioned the culture between the, the two as well, that because there'll be players playing both. That's what you mean?

Absolutely, playing both, and then they suddenly prefer one thing from there. And then just at the minute, also the one-day side got a bit this momentum going.

Um, it's Aberdeenshire's summer followed immediately by a World Cup, you know, that's, that's That's both coaches wanting all their players available all the time. There's a lot going on there.

Yeah, there is. And you know, we didn't— we do that, that Mad Ashes in '13, so this never happens. Yeah, that's bashes. And then 15 years later it's back. But it's— that's why it's, it's going to be really interesting to see which way they go. I, you know, all the names have been mentioned, you know, I, I, I just wouldn't know quite where. Like Jonathan Trott's got a great record in tough conditions, like going to coach Afghanistan, for example, you know, that, that is a lot of off-field stuff to deal with as well. And maybe someone like his experience could be useful. But, you know, someone else might say that. I, I, I'm intrigued.

What do you say, Deep, looking in?

Uh, first of all, just going back a little bit, for all these years I was baffled why England does not do well in white ball cricket. If you look at that talent there, whether it's T20 and ODI, it is baffling that England hasn't done well. That's one thing. So obviously there is the talent there, right? Uh, then secondly, as far as the coaching thing is concerned, you know, having two different coaches, the biggest challenge is, for example, you just finished that New Zealand series and within 3 days you're playing a T20.

So hard.

So if, I mean, a T20 coach would want his best 11 because he has to justify his position, the Test coach needs to justify his position and his performance, he would want the best guys. But I mean, this is a normal— this is the new normal. You will have these, you know, movement from one, uh, one format to the other in very, very short period of time. And then you need, ideally speaking, there— how I see going forward, a structure where there is a director of cricket who handles all the formats, and then you have someone who takes all these calls, long-term calls, And then you have head coaches who will take calls based on the franchise— they are sorry, the format that they're looking at. Because at this point in time, if you leave two coaches to take independent decisions, then obviously they would want their team to be the best and not look at availability, long-term workload management and all of that stuff. So it is a challenge. And the other thing is all the top coaches with so much of franchise cricket around, it is difficult to get those coaches only for one format and say you're, you're up, you should be available whenever we ask you to come, but then you're only doing one format.

Yeah, but Test cricket, if you're the England head Test coach, I think it's, it's a 12-month job. You cannot be going doing anything. Exactly, because there's too much to do. And you know, like, there's so many— I don't think you can do— as Andy Flower said, he, he said, I can't do both properly.

That's exactly my point.

Cannot do both.

So that's exactly my point. So if you're saying I just want you for Test match cricket, but you should be available 12 months a year, then how much are you going to compensate him for?

Yes, that really limits the field.

But, but it wouldn't you— if you were that coach, that means you can really do some other work. You should be really well prepared. Look at the advantage of a split coaching, that both setups should be so well prepared for both for the next series because you'll have plenty of time to go and work with some players who aren't doing both formats, or, you know, getting everything absolutely perfect. So the attention to detail with two coaches should be absolutely spot on.

Yeah, and that's where I think there has to be a director of cricket who actually is responsible for all the formats and the long-term planning, like we're talking about in terms of workload and all of that, the long-term thing. But while you can have coaches who just thinking about, you know, their job or their formats that they're looking at.

So what are we looking at in terms of the time? It's a month now until the first test against Pakistan.

Do England—

I mean, there's some talk that they might have Marcus Trescothick as a temporary coach in charge of the Pakistan series.

Well, there's been so many theories. They said they don't want that. The management don't want that, do they? The administrators want a coach to be in position. And that's That would be interesting if they did that. That would then negate what Cookie said about having the coach in place to choose the captain, because they will have— they'll have to have a captain, uh, and then the coach would come in with a captain already in place, unless the captain's temporary.

Yeah, but didn't Richard Gould say in his interview when he announced that Brendan wasn't there that we're in plan, we've got plans? Yes, but I mean, so if you're getting rid of your head coach, who's still going to be around in the one-day staff. Please tell me that they've lined something up. They haven't just, you know, surely if you're planned, which he did say in that interview, he's been, you know, they've got 6 or 7, all this kind of stuff about planning and that. You've got rid of your head coach but you haven't lined up anyone to come in, and yet he's still the head coach, is still here in the system. That doesn't make much sense either.

No, and a bit, I thought the problem was they couldn't really tap anybody up until McCullum had been sacked. Because first question, the person's going to ask, what have you sacked Brendan yet? What's his position? So they had to sack him.

It is messy. But one thing apart, so let's take the off-field stuff messy. What we're watching on field, and I think we all agree, those players can do, can over the next few years do some stuff really special because there's some good, good players. They've, you know, they've made India the great Indian side. They've beaten them, have beaten them well in, in two formats.

Yeah, very successful white ball month for England. Thanks, Sir Jonathan, Deep, and Alistair. But plenty to decide as far as the Test match team is concerned, and I suppose what they decide the Test match team might have a knock-on for white ball cricket as well.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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All right, lots of fun here, but it has been a sad week, uh, and, uh, everyone who, who loves cricket and, uh, and, and indeed sport uh, will know of the great Sir Garfield Sobers, surely, uh, the finest all-rounder ever to have played cricket.

Titmuss now from the Stratford end to Sobers, and Sobers hits that and caught in the slips by Colin Cowdrey.

Sobers out, caught Cowdrey, bowl Titmuss, 161, and everyone on the ground standing What a great player! Oh, he's got that shorter one up again. There it is, bouncing on the— bouncing on the concrete. 4 sixes in 4 balls. This makes him 64, 4 sixes. Wonder where Nash is going to bowl this one. And that will just carry.

Now he's going to be out, caught out.

Oh, he's dropped it over the boundary. Oh, this is incredible. Now, are we at 6 on the trot? It's a world record.

Records never, never really meant all that much to me, and I thought, well, you know, it could as well give it a go. You get so close, and, um, I knew at that time from being an old professional then— I was well-seasoned player then— and knowing Malcolm, I knew Malcolm was going to try something else because he was trying to get me out, hoping that I would miss hit. But after the 5th one, he thought, well, I, I don't think I want to be hit for 6 sixes. And I knew he was going to bowl a quicker ball, so I was all prepared for it. I was, um, steps and heaps ahead of him. So when he bowled it, he dropped it short. Well, it was all over because, um, it was only one place it was going to go, and that was on the leg side.

70 on the board, and he's done it!

He's done it!

And my goodness, it's gone way down to Sponville!

First of all, his batting.

Many people only saw him towards the end of his career when he batted 6 and captained the West Indies, but if you'd have seen him when he batted 4, really a batsman only, he was a serious player. He's the best batsman I've ever seen, and those of you who've seen Viv Richards, there you are. If I had to choose, very little between them, I'd go for Gary.

One must always consider themselves lucky, and I think that the important thing is that when you're born, you don't know what you're going to become. And I think you have to always pray and thank God for giving you some kind of ability, and that you have been able to develop that ability to the extent that where you play for your country. And I was a young boy growing up, one of my ambitions was to play. I was very much sports-oriented, you know, I always looked forward to sports, cricket in particular, because cricket was the only thing in Barbados at the time that if you grew up and you were good enough to get a chance to play for Barbados, which was a very strong team in those days, with the Three Ws coming from Barbados and Roy Marshall, Dennis Atkinson, and all of those great West Indian players in the pass. And you know that if you became a good cricketer, that it was that chance of traveling and seeing the world. And of course, you know, as a young boy listening to the game, you always thought, you know, one day I would like to become a good cricketer.

A good cricketer. I think he became rather more than simply a good cricketer. Uh, the wonderful Gary Sobers, of course, who died a couple of days ago. And who better to reflect on, on his life and, and lots more besides as well? It's great to have an opportunity always to chat to Sir Clive Lloyd, who's sitting alongside me, looking as lugubrious and as fit as ever. Clive, it's lovely to see you. Um, memories for you, I mean, where do you start? Where do you, where do you start with Gary? How did you first come across Gary, bearing in mind that you were obviously in Guyana? Yeah, Gary, older than you, was living in in Barbados?

Well, in Guyana, you know, in those days, you know, you couldn't get a ticket or anything. So we had a tree that was just looking over the boundary and outside the ground. Yes, outside the ground. And we were there and I watched him play against Pakistan. And at the end of the game, you would go with your scrapbook and you, as they're passing out, oh, that's so worth, that's Weeks, that's You know, and that's how we got to recognize those players. But then after that, you started to play inter-island cricket. And I remember the first, my first game against Barbados, he got me LBW for nought.

Right.

So he turned to the then manager of the West Indies side. Barclay gasped and said, "Oh, I noticed your boy didn't get any." And Barclay replied, "Oh, well, he's not my boy, but he's a boy that I like, but there's a second innings." And I got 100 and odd at about 19 or 18 against Hall.

Wow.

Griffith.

I mean, no, Griffith, Sobers, Holford, Rolf Edwards. And you know, these are the guys that did well against England. So I just, I said to myself, oh, I can't be that bad a player.

I think you passed the test.

Yeah.

And I, the next game I got 197 against Jamaica. And, um, and they all thought I was going to be selected for England 1966, but it didn't happen. So, but I at least had made Yeah, you bet.

What do you remember about watching Sobers from your tree? I mean, how old were you?

Oh, I must say, well, I was at high school, so 15, 14, 15, 15, 16. Yeah.

And it was a thing to do, was it? I mean, that was, that was the way the kids would get to watch.

And Border didn't have a, you know, didn't have a great capacity for patrons, so I had admired him because he was left-handed and so on. And having seen him, he was always a very friendly person. Yeah, you know, and everybody wanted to be like Gary Sobers, collar up, walking with a leash.

Bit of an easy one.

Yeah, we couldn't get as many girls as he could. But it was really wonderful. It was great to see someone, you know, the way he played. He was Magnificent cricketer, the best I've seen.

How did you know about him? Because I mean, in those days, with no television presumably, so you wouldn't have, you wouldn't have seen Gary batting. Was it just, it was simply radio, was it? You just heard about this man?

Well, yes, there was no television, but there was radio, and you listened, you know, you're going to school and you have your little transistor radio at night when you're doing your homework, you're listening to They're playing in Australia. And you heard all these wonderful, you know, things about him. And he was just tremendous. And then you know, in that West Indies team, playing with people that you admired, it was just a dream come true.

So I think about it, Sangha, he was your first captain of West Indies, wasn't he? You made your debut. Yeah. And he was your captain.

Captain.

So how was, how was that?

Oh, that was excellent. I mean, I—

was he as you expected to be? Is it your test debut? You never played with him before, presumably?

No, but I played against him in Barbados.

Yes, but what was he like as to be in, in the same dressing room?

He was one of these guys that, you know, when we were— I think our first trip was to Australia, and I didn't get a lot of runs because I had two hundreds against England, but I didn't make a lot of runs in the lead-up games to the Test matches. And I was quite worried and I said, 'Scape, what do you think am I doing wrong?' He said, 'No, it will come at the right time.' And I made a hundred in the first Test match and we won the Test You know, but he gave you encouragement. And when you were batting with him, you just felt at ease because he was the master.

Yes.

You know, and I remember my first game in India, '66, '67, and I was called to play in the Test match half an hour before. Because Simon Ross got injured. And he said, young man, you're in. I said, in? Because there are so many people before me. And I think I didn't have time for butterflies because we fielded. And we did very well. And I remember that I made 82 and 78 in the second, not out in the first. Test, and we had to make 240 to win, and the two of us were batting. And he said, 'Young man, I'll let you know when we should have a go.' So he's knocking us around, and you know, and he said, 'Time to go, let's go.' And we won quite handsomely, and as we're coming off, he said, 'Oh, I'm so glad we finished this early.' '10,000 guineas is about half an hour from now.' And I'm thinking, I'm thinking about horses.

Yeah, it's extraordinary.

And oh, but he was, he was so wonderful. He was a wonderful person.

Why was he the master? You called, you photo him as a master.

Why?

What was it about his—

Because he made everything look so easy. In Barbados, in Jamaica, against England, they had these massive crowds. Cracks, and I got 40-odd not out. I think, well, I played a magnificent answer. And in the second innings, he got 100, and the cracks didn't get any smaller. But, and he made the bowling look so— he just—

time, is it time technique?

Yes, he had good eyesight. He picked up the, you know, he would hit balls that you would have to play forward to you flick it, had good wrists. Oh, he was just tremendous. And so Donald Bradman said he was 5 cricketers in one.

Yeah, you know, did he practice much? Was he always practicing in the nets or not?

Not a lot, not a lot at all. He'd go and have a net and so on, but you know, but he's a natural. Yes, you can have that sort of thing. And he made things look easy when you're batting with him. You couldn't help but make runs because the people were afraid, players were afraid to bowl to him. Yes, you know.

What about his bowling?

Because—

Oh, excellent.

I've only saw it on the telly. So let's start with the opening bowling. What sort of pace would he have been?

Well, he was quick, he was fairly quick. I don't know if you know Lester King, No, from Jamaica, who was Van Bonhoulder.

Oh, okay.

Yes, yes, he was a little quicker. Oh yes, then, then Vanny. Yes, swung it both ways.

That was the thing, he could swing.

Yeah, he used to give Boykott a rough time, really. Yes. Um, and every— and he would open the bowling against Boykott and he would get him out LBW or whatever. Caught behind or— but the point is that he just believed in his ability, you know. He didn't see him training a lot and so on and so forth, but he have a net and bowl in the nets and that was it.

Yeah, and then spin. I mean, how often did he bowl his wrist spin? Was that a serious thing?

Not as often, but the left arm stuff you would do, you know, he'd bowl bowled at. Um, there was spin. He bowled a lot in the West Indies, in our, in our, in dryland cricket.

Yes.

Didn't do a lot of that in the Test matches because, you know, he didn't— wouldn't give away a lot of easy runs or whatever. But, um, I, I don't know if we'll ever see another cricketer like him.

Can't do, can you? I mean, it's, it's, it's when someone dies, they— it's very easy to to, I don't know, sometimes exaggerate how good they were. I just don't think that's possible with Gary Sobers.

No, everything he did, he did well. He played football, he did well. Table tennis, he did well. He was just a genius. And, you know, you sort of judge your greatness from, from cigar fields.

I wonder what the youngsters, um, you know, he still, he still remained relevant, didn't he? I mean, when I worked with him, I, I never, I never heard him, uh, talk about in, in my day or that sort of thing. He wasn't, he wasn't that sort of character.

No, he will tell you like it is and hope that you just follow through and, you know, and do exactly as he, as he told you.

Yeah.

What about his impact on West Indian cricket then? I mean, what And I mean the whole region, presumably.

Yes, well, we thought that this guy, he encouraged a lot of young cricketers, the Brian Laharas and so on, and everybody wanted to bat like him, you know, they wanted to bowl like him, they wanted to be Gary Sobers, you know.

You mentioned a name there. Yeah, you mentioned Brian Lara. Yes, Brian, good afternoon.

Good afternoon.

I really thank you so much for coming to join us. It's fabulous. We're just— obviously I'm sitting here with Sir Clive, uh, and talking about Gary. And, and all I was going to say to you really was that day in 1994 in Antigua, I'd never seen such a joyful celebration as that when you, when broke the record and there was the great man himself. I'm sure you get asked about it a lot, Brian, but is that still one of your fondest memories?

It's one of my greatest memories. Sir Garfi Sobaz, maybe about, I would say, 15, 16 months ago, was in Australia at the Sydney Cricket Ground, January of 1993, and he was very upset that I got out for 277 and You know, he scolded me. He literally scolded me in the dressing room. As a young man, I never scored a hundred or double or anything, and I was so happy. But he put me— he sort of embedded something in my head that, listen, you know, this is just the start. And when he was there in Antigua, 1994, just being there with him and seeing him, you know what? Sir Clive, I've thought many, many times now, and today I actually wished I stopped at 365, but obviously I didn't have that. I didn't have that. I didn't have that zest. I didn't have that knowledge of how great he was and what he meant. And I was just a young man trying to do things, but I so wished I stopped at this great man's school.

Do you believe him, Clive? Do you believe him?

No, I don't want Sir Clive to believe me because it didn't happen, but I'm just saying that, you know, in hindsight, oh really, Sir Garvey Sobers meant so much to me.

Yeah, sure.

Um, then, before, and after that, um, you know, to just know him as a man was just amazing.

Yeah, I mean, did you— knew he was there presumably during that innings, and did that kind of Inspire you because of what he'd said to you that previous winter?

Most definitely. Barbados was having a tourism drive in, in all the islands. They had it in Australia back in 1993, and they were going through that 2-year period. And just to have Sir Garfield Sobers there and to know that genuinely he was there for me was a very special moment.

Yeah.

And were you—

I mean, what was your reaction when suddenly he appeared? Caught in the middle amongst all that mayhem that was going on, and suddenly there's Gary.

I know, um, just awesome. You know, you're speaking— I mean, I can't throw my mind all the way back to tell you exactly how I felt, but a Trinidad kid, you know, growing up, understanding what West Indies cricket meant in the '70s and '80s. I didn't see much of Sir Garfield Sobers. I knew his records. I knew what he represented, but to actually get to that moment and have that great man there with me back in 1994, April 1994, moments I'll never forget. And we're on radio and I am actually tearing up because he meant so, so much to me.

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's— that's— that's—

yeah, you're just as important to us, Brian.

There you go, the next generation, Brian.

Yes, sir. You meant a lot to me too, and you have, you have managed the teams I've been captain of, of course. So Vivian Richards, who was here with us previously, and the work that you're doing on the charity side with your, with your cancer situation, I am always going to be there for you. So don't believe that there's one before the other. We all live as one, and I'm so happy to be counted in the at Chalon of West Indies Cricket.

Great and wonderful. I'm so glad that you came and you helped, and you'll be there in the future. I wish you the best of luck, sir.

Thank you, thank you, big man.

Thank you, Brian. Thanks for talking to us, really appreciate it. See you soon, eh?

Thank you very much.

Cheers, Brian. Well, there we go. That's an unexpected little surprise. Yeah, very nice indeed. There you are. He actually did sound really quite emotional about that.

Yeah, well, he too has done a a lot for our cricket, and he's encouraged a lot of young people to play. And, um, and as you know, we, we know only 5 million people. It's not a massive set of, of, um, people that play cricket in the West Indies. And then, and he has done yeoman service for us, and I hope he continues.

Yeah, 50 years since that amazing tour here by the West Indies, led by you, which really put West Indies cricket on the map. Memories of that? The declaration here, Gordon Grant, Michael Holding bowling the Oval, and the— and yeah, we call stuff at Old Trafford with Brian Close and John Edrich. It was a brutal series.

Yeah, in 1975 too, we weren't the top team. Australia was, England was better than we were, Pakistan. So we weren't the front runners. And the game that was interesting, that we realized that we could win this thing, was against Pakistan. We needed 52 or 53, 14 overs with the last pair, right? And there's Derek Murray and Andy Roberts there, over by over. And my accountant Gordon Andrews from Birmingham brought in a case of pale ale. He said, Clive, you're 66 or something to one to win, and I think you do so. And here's this. So every over I drank a pale ale. So I was inebriated.

You might have been.

But when we won, And Andy was stranded in the middle, and when the guy threw the ball, he didn't collect it cleanly, so he got it.

Is that right?

So we were whooping. Oh, we realized then that this could be our tournament.

So that's character, but for the fast bowling, when that was really the series that put fast bowling on the mat, wasn't there? Mikey Holding, Andy Roberts, Wayne Downey.

No, they didn't play in '75.

'76.

Yes, and we had a, we had a pretty good side really because we had Van Bonhoulder, Julian, Boyce, and who else that I bowled my right arm off optimistic, but you know, we had Lance. Yes, one stage. Yeah. And, um, but we had a good side, we had a good cricketing side, but it all came together, I think, later on when we introduced other players. Andy Roberts was a tremendous, um, my mentor, Andy.

Yeah, yeah.

And then later on We had Croft, Garner.

Yeah, it just rolled on and on.

And yeah, Malcolm Marshall.

Yeah. Oh yeah, Clive, it's lovely catching up with you. Thank you so much for coming. It's always, it's always lovely to catch you. Thank you, thank you. And thank you, thank you for your comments about, about Gary Sobers too. It's, it's a difficult time for people like you who knew him so well. But, um, what a, what a remarkable man, a remarkable player.

Yeah, you are just a wonderful person. Yeah, and, um, you know, he was ailing for a while and we knew that it was— he would go, he'll be leaving us at some stage. But it's unfortunate.

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