England toil under the sun in Black Cap run-fest

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Welcome to our review of the first day of the decisive and deciding third test at sweltering Trent Bridge, where New Zealand closed on 361 for 4. So we've seen 4 for 44 and An opening stand of 317 between Latham and Conway. New Zealand winning the toss, and in benign conditions, not a cloud in the sky, and a good-looking pitch, it was a no-brainer for Tom Latham to bat first. England, of course, would have batted first as well, and they made the most of it. But a wicket for Stokes, a wicket for Root, a wicket for Archer, and a wicket for Atkinson, a couple right before the close of play, just given England a lift. Michael Vaughan is here, Jonathan Agnew is here, Alistair Cook is here. Well, Michael, not exactly a day of two halves, but a kind of day of seven-eighths and then an eighth England right at the end. Bizarre days cricket in a way. You don't see many 300 stands.

No, and you look at New Zealand, the 44 for 4 from that initial 317-run opening partnership. I can't quite believe what I've just seen from Ratchett, the shot that he's just played to Gus Atkinson. Uh, good work for Bashir on the boundary. Did he go for 4? New Zealand probably say it did. Well, the The fact is, Rachin had to face a relatively wide, long hop, and he tried to pull it, and that's gifted England a sniff in this game. I mean, 361 is still a lot of runs. We never judge a pitch until two teams have batted and bowled on it. But I just keep going back to that game 4 years ago when New Zealand got 550 and lost the game. I don't think this pitch is going to be treacherous over the course of 5 days. If anything, it'll stay pure for at least 3 and a half of those days, unless the clouds roll in and it starts to swing. But I'm not too sure whether that's the forecast. And you'd say from what we've seen, at least 475+ would be par on this pitch that we've seen today. So England, with those last two wickets in the last couple of overs, have got themselves back in the contest.

And the new ball is only 4.1 overs old as well.

Yeah, and you know, that last delivery that did for Henry Nicholls, a bit of pace from Joffre Archer, a bit of extra gas. And if he can crank it up in the morning and England can bowl New Zealand out for around 450, of course they're gonna have to bat very well and You look at the New Zealand attack, no Jameson, no Matt Henry, uh, Mitchell Santa coming in for his first game, a couple of guys that have not played any cricket, and England will have a chance of posting a big first innings score. But first and foremost, they need to get those 6 wickets tomorrow morning.

Do days sometimes in cricket just have sort of an inevitable unwinding? You know, you, you turn up this morning, both captains desperate to win the toss, there's not a cloud in the sky, the pitch looks good, it looks absolutely perfect for batting. Is it sometimes just almost impossible to change that narrative? Yeah, I can't do something about it, really seriously do something about it.

I think in recent times, in the last couple of years, I think we arrive most mornings of the first day and we kind of look at the pitch, and more often than not we're kind of going, it's probably quite a good toss to lose. You don't want to make the call, this was an absolute, you had to bat first. It's dry, the conditions are perfect for batting, and then the game started and it just looks so good for batting. Um, we've seen at Trent Bridge over, over, over recent times that the ball can start swinging around. I guess if it does, it'll be a little bit harder because the snicks are carrying. It's not that it's a really slow deck, the ball's been going through quite nicely. But, um, yeah, it just felt that whoever got the opportunity to bat first, I would suggest, would have ended up with around 361, probably lose 4 wickets. And I think England may have got a few more, um, if Conway and Leitham had batted another hour. That probably would have been 390, 400. And it just shows you in Test cricket, if you hang in there and you just keep going, you don't always get your rewards at the start of the day, but if you keep pounding away and you keep your attitudes right, you get your rewards at the back end. And England have done that today.

How did you see the day, Jonathan?

Well, yeah, I think it was good old-fashioned Test cricket, much of it, wasn't it? You know, two opening batsmen, um, not particularly flashy. I mean, I do like— I like watching Conway play, I must say. I think he's driving His driving is immaculate, and it was the real memory of that double hundred at Lord's that he got too. Beautiful cover drives. I mean, he plays it very nicely. But yeah, there was good old-fashioned, just, you know, try and nail it down. The thing is that for New Zealanders to come here, it's a bit like us being like Michael— like Michael— both these two being Ashes winning captains. It kind of— it's a, it's a peg. Well, if you're a New Zealand captain who wins in England, that's the same sort of peg. And that's what Tom Latham's got. And you, you know, he's— you can see really that is a great driver for him. They've only won here twice before. And what an opportunity that they have to really give this team a bit of a legacy, you know. And it just looked as if they batted that way. And then there were a couple of inexplicable shots, really. Conway himself, really odd that he should play a shot like that. They just lost Latham, new batsman comes in, the new ball I think was 6 overs away, and he just sort of slogged a catch into the deep and walked off.

I mean, like watching England in the Ashes.

So that was a bit odd. And so too was Ravindra's. I didn't think the bowlers really did anything wrong. I don't like that short pitch stuff, and I'm always quite glad when it doesn't work because it sort of proves the point.

Didn't they have to go for it at some point in the day?

You can do other things. You can hang it outside your stump. You know, the other thing, running in and bowling like that is just kind of absolutely last resort, isn't it?

So it happened after tea, so they reserved it for after time.

I would argue they should have gone to it sooner today.

Well, you can do that. That may be if you maybe if the bowlers perhaps have got a bit more energy, perhaps, or whatever. But it's just such a, you know, to have to do it yourself. I see Gus Atkinson doing it. Guys, I think he's a skilled bowler, pitches it up and nibbles it around, run up and bowl bounces. I think it's a rather sad tactic, actually.

I actually thought they were a bit unlucky doing that tactic today. I reckon there's at least 3 or 4 chances where both Latham and Conway, who— it's a justified tactic if both, if a bat is playing the shot. And they, and they, they would, they did, you could see in their mind both of them weren't letting any bouncers go. They were taking it on. And there's one to Bethel where top edge from Conway landed just in front of him, almost got run out actually because he had cramp when he chased it down. I can remember 3 or 4 another day that could have gone. The hard thing is, is knowing when to stop to do it, because the one thing, it doesn't matter who's batting, when they're taking it on, it goes for runs. And actually after tea, they scored 70 runs in 11 overs. But they were creating chances where, let's be honest, before that first 4 hours, there was barely a player missed. One edge from Latham. So I didn't mind it there, but it's almost in your mind as a captain, you think, I can only do it for a short period.

The argument is before tea, you could reset at tea. Yeah, if you did it before tea, didn't work, get off, have a break, and then you start from scratch.

Yeah, the one criticism about tactics today that I look down and think, what worked at the Oval? Brilliantly. And what worked for England at Lord's very, very well— the keeper stood up. England not once today had the keeper stood up to the seamers, and it's probably because of the 4 quicks that they've picked. They picked Joffre Archer— you're not going to stand up to Joffre. Josh Tong— you're not going to stand up to Josh Tong. I guess the 2 that you could is Gus Atkinson and Ben Stokes— very difficult. But an Ollie Robinson-style bowler, you can guarantee when England get the chance to bat, uh, Blundell will be up to the stumps, probably not to O'Rourke, but to every single other New Zealand seamer. And that's going to be interesting to see on this kind of pitch when they keep, you know, the batter's back in his crease and you're bowling full of length with quite a straight field. You know, all it needs is a little bit of nibble, as we've seen in the first couple of Test matches. So that's the one thing I looked at and thought, oh, the one tactic that we've all been praising for the first two Test matches has been that, and we've not seen it once today.

You've Both of you captained England a lot. When you lose a toss on a day like today, does your heart sink? Yes or no?

Oh, you didn't know? No, you're not happy, but you kind of get on with it.

Some of the great wins is when you've been— when you've lost the toss and you've been put in, and when you're in the field, when you all you want to do is bat.

Okay, so you said you watched the day's play unfold, you said that, you know, there was barely a chance. So what are you thinking as a captain in those situations?

I think it's a great insight into your team and people looking at the team. Like, there's certain moments today where I don't— I, I looked and thought, actually, fair play to them.

They—

you wouldn't have known there was a 250-run partnership. Yeah, you never ever look your absolute best when you're 300 for 0, but do you know what, they stuck at their— they stuck at their task. The bowlers, you know, did what you had to do. And sometimes it's a bit of a free hit sometimes on a wicket like that when it's that good. And it was that good today. It might play slightly different later on the game, you know. You just bowl, you know you're not going to get loads of wickets. Bowl, bit of a smile on your face, and that you have almost have that attitude to it. Look, it's hot, it's fun, and you just try and make a bit of a day of it knowing you ain't going to bowl them out. England got their rewards for that in those last couple of overs.

Yeah, I mean, I, I, I go back to the, the start of Bazball where, you know, England really wanted to be playing on these kind of pitches. They almost had an aura 'Right, we'll chase down whatever you're going to get, and we'll create chances in the field by being really funky, and we'll have this aura about our kind of group in the field.' I didn't see that today. You know, I've seen them a bit in the past where you've looked down and thought, 'They believe they're going to get a wicket all the time.' I understand it because of the pitch, that probably was void for them today, but I admire this side because they never give up. You know, they might lose a lot of cricket, but I never ever watched this England team and think, 'Phwoar, they're not putting a shift in.' You know, showed down the back end, diving on the boundary. Body language is always good. On a hot day, you could easily see players slump and have a little bit of weakness in the body language. I didn't see that. It was just one of those days that they had to keep going. And, you know, I think there were spells in the game where they bowled nicely, the ball wasn't doing a great deal. There's a period where it started to swing just a little bit, just enough, and you thought, well, this could be— Ben Stokes got it swinging around. I thought, this could be a moment for them. And they got their rewards in the last two overs by being consistent throughout with their mindset and their body language. They'll have to do that again tomorrow. You know, we've seen it at the Oval. Well, on day one at the Oval, we thought, oh, they've had really— this isn't a really good day. It's not as good a day as that first day at the Oval. But, you know, we now need to see that first hour tomorrow morning where they win the first hour tomorrow morning really well, and it has to be really well, uh, they'll be right back in this Test match.

There was one point that I thought they were good, they were gonna be really challenged today That was when Smith dropped that really easy catch. The ball was flying around everywhere. They went for about 70, or it was 70 off 10 overs, whatever it was. And he just felt then, if in the heat, that could possibly— they could possibly have lost it a bit there. But actually they didn't. That shows a lot of character, I think. And, you know, I remember that actually because I was thinking it, and the camera shot onto Stokes. So whoever was in charge, that was thinking the same sort of thing. This is— it was kind of a knife edge. But they didn't, they did stick to it and they came through, and I thought that was very creditable.

What about your mindset as a batter today? You know, you're Latham and Conway, your skipper wins the toss at half past 10. Well, Latham was going out to profit from it, but what are you saying to yourself, Alistair, when you head out there on a day like today?

Well, you're never really certain how the pitch is going to play. You hope it's going to be as good as it looks. I think it's more when you get to 40-50 when you realize you haven't really played and missed one edge from Latham and you just think these are the days which will make up for Lords. These are days— I spoke to Tom Latham actually just after the Oval. He was going to the press conference. He just asked a little bit of batting and he was just saying like struggling for a bit of rhythm. I didn't say anything, just talking batting. And I said there'll be a day, just make sure you cash in when you get— that's the opener's lot. He was almost just telling me that was the opener's lot as well, isn't it? You get a couple of good balls and suddenly the series is done. You know, you suddenly— 4 innings, sorry, in a series, you haven't got a score, and you don't ever just not contribute ever to a series. And it's just that same realization that is the opening batter's lot sometimes. But you saw that, you saw the people today, you saw both Conway and Leitham, guys who haven't scored runs in the series, and for a little bit, they weren't going to miss out really on this occasion.

Well, Leitham, before this inning, 3-0, 27 4, and then you get a situation like this, you kind of rub your hands together. But actually, what is interesting watching when he was out, because he was, he was really disappointed to get out. He made 151. Would you, would you have been similarly as angry with yourself?

That's a stupid thing about cricket, isn't it? Like, if you'd have offered Tom Latham 150 at the beginning of this today, or after the over, after 4 low scores, he would have snapped his hand off. He snapped your hand off. Absolutely take it. And yet he'd have been walking off there disappointed. Explain the madness.

Yes, yeah, fill your boots when you can, can you?

Yeah.

What about Conway's shot? You touched on it. I mean, would you, would you have kicked yourself for a shot like that? Or was he actually— we saw the drinks coming on quite regularly for Conway. Looks like he's struggling with cramp at times. Did tiredness just get the better of him?

Absolutely it did. Um, and I think after he got 100, I think he was struggling. Um, the disappointing if he'd have played that shot with Latham at the other end, then I—

you, you wouldn't—

it's hard to criticize 157, but it wouldn't be as much as a talking point as it is now. It's more for the game situations that you lose one wicket, you know, what's the thing, do try and rebuild another partnership, don't allow the opposition to two wickets. They got two wickets and over with a shot given to England, so He played beautifully. I think he was struggling a little bit, but just for new— just on the team thing, that was a chance to reset, say, right, I need to be here for the second new ball.

Yeah, Conway was caught by Fisher, the subfielder, off route for 157, having a bit of a hack. I just mentioned it earlier out at deep midwicket. Yes, suddenly they lost 2 wickets in a couple of overs, and then it happened again just before the close of play. Uh, what was going through Ravindra's mind?

Well, I, I don't know what was going through his mine. It's a really poor shot. That is, you know, game awareness of, you know, a poor game awareness. What was it, 6 minutes to go, 2 overs to go? You are allowed to play for the close. And, and actually, he had looked quite controlled up until that point, and 7 off, you know, was it 20 odd balls he'd faced? Yeah, I don't think he should have been on strike though. And I'm sorry, I would be spewing if I was New Zealand.

Explain.

Well, Bashir, the ball before, dived on the boundary. He looked like You know, I was on the TV highlights and I couldn't believe how long that— I saw it once, I said, that's 4, he's missed the ball. The only reason the ball's back is because it hit the Toblerone, whatever sponsor thing you call it, and he missed it because the ball went under his hand. And the only way— and the only reason they couldn't give it, I suppose, because he actually couldn't see from that angle, so he gave the benefit of the doubt to the fielder. But I mean, I mean, for all of money from mine, that, that hit the boundary, and therefore they ran 3. It should have been Nicholls on strike. So I, I would be annoyed that as a, as a side that that's been allowed to happen, but you can't legislate for the shot.

No.

So he was out for 7, then Nicholls out for 36 in the last over. So ultimately England kind of fighting their way back with 4 for 44 towards the end of the day's play. Let's get some Reaction from the England camp now. Tim Southey, one of the assistant coaches, speaking with Dan Norcross.

So Tim, what a bizarre day's cricket. Really, really tough for the whole day, I'm sure. But to come back in the last hour, you must be really pleased with the way England have stuck at it.

Yeah, great rewards late in the day, and I guess sets up tomorrow a bit easier than what it was looking like for a big part of that day. But yeah, hot day, good wicket, and nice to get those rewards late in the day.

You must be fearing the worst though at 317 when our loss— I mean, what was your assessment of how it went for those first like 5 and a half hours?

Yeah, I think we— I think everyone knows it's a pretty good surface. We probably went at our best with the ball, but credit to New Zealand. I think the two openers played exceptionally well and put us under pressure as a bowling attack. But like you said, to be able to finish the day 4 down and in the top 4 back in the changing rooms gives us a bit of energy going into tomorrow.

There were a couple of missed opportunities, only one catch down the leg side, and there was also the missed DRS call. Other than that, how did you feel the team were during the day?

Yeah, I think the fielders in particular, the energy from guys like Root, Brook, Bethell throughout the day on a hot day and pretty trying conditions for the guys out there. I think they held their energy throughout and it was nice to get those rewards. Late in the day, going into tomorrow.

And how's it been dealing with the disruption? I mean, with the bowling attack changing from one Test to the other, how has it been over the last few days?

Yeah, no, the guys have trained exceptionally well leading into this. Has been a bit of chopping and changing, but we knew that those guys were coming back for this Test. So yeah, prepared well and yeah, just cracked on with it like the side tends to do.

A word on the pitch. Are you expecting it to break up? You expect it to hold together?

Good question. I think with this weather around, I'd expect it to deteriorate at some stage. But we saw back in, was it 2022, New Zealand posted 500 plus and both innings had it. Both first innings were big scores. So I think tomorrow the first hour is going to be very important. Hopefully we can grab some momentum from that last half hour in particular and head in tomorrow with a new ball in our hand and make some early inroads.

Well, if it does break up, I think they're going to get a decent first innings total. Shoaib Bashir is going to be important. He was off the field for a little while. Can you let us have an update on that?

Yeah, just a little bit of cramp. Obviously a hot day, a few overs under his belt, so just dealing with a bit of cramp. So yeah, I'm sure the spinners and the surface will come into play later on in the Test.

The workloads finally of the bowlers, with Bashir bowling as many as he did, a couple of overs from Bethell and Root. Would you hope that the pace bowlers will turn up pretty fresh tomorrow, or even despite the 35 degrees?

Yeah, I think so. I think everyone understands Test cricket's hard, and the bowlers, they got through a few overs, but it wasn't a big day for them with the likes of those other guys being able to chip in and share the load throughout the day. So I think, like I said, the couple of wickets tonight will give the guys some energy going into tomorrow with the new ball in hand as well.

Thanks, Dave. Best of luck tomorrow.

Thank you.

That's Tim Southey talking to Daniel Norcross. It just still seems strange to read an England-New Zealand Test match and Tim Southey in the England camp, because last time of course England toured here, he was part of it. And you can tell, and Brendan McCullum, it's the nature of international sport now though, isn't it?

Yeah, it is. He's talking about us, talk about England rather than talk about his country, played for so many times.

Indeed. Just talk about the, uh, the spread of overs of England's pace bowlers today. Archer only bowling 12 overs, today. But getting that wicket towards the end— Atkinson 16, Tung 14, Stokes 13. I suppose having Bashir in the side means you can rotate the quicker bowlers.

Yeah, it's funny, I mean, I thought Archer was rather underbowled in the first half of the day, actually. I mean, coming back towards the end is obviously hard for him, and I thought the way he came back actually was terrific with that, with that new ball. Because he bowled, what, 3 overs before the second new ball, uh, was taken. I think they're still trying to look after him a bit, aren't they? You know, I think He obviously wasn't test match fit for the Oval, but he still played and got through it. They desperately need to win here. I mean, it may have been in other circumstances that he might not have played. The one for me is Bashir, you know, he's so young and still learning his game to the extent that he can't get in the Derbyshire side at times. And you look at the length, he just still bowls really bad balls, bad balls at this level. They're hard, they're hard to excuse really. I mean, a 6-meter difference in length there was at times. 6 meters for a spinner, that's, that's massive. And I think if you're going to concede the sort of runs that he is, I don't understand why they don't play Rehan Ahmed, who, who would probably concede more or less the same sort of thing being a young wrist spinner, but brings so much more as well. And I, I, that's, that, that's an odd one, you know. I, I do wish with Shoaib Bashir, they've just let me go and learn, go and learn his game, go and go and go. And because then I think he'd come back actually really a really good bowler. He's tall, he spun a couple today, but he just hasn't got the consistency yet to be reliable at this level.

Well, I think today summed up he hadn't played much for 2 months. Uh, he bowled— I thought he bowled really nicely in the first session, session and a half. I think at one stage he was controlling the rate 3, 3 and a bit. He was, he was consistent consistent, and I think I thought, yeah, do you know what, no spinner on that day one was going to make— you know, it's a holding role, it's making sure the bowlers, the seamers on a hot day, like, don't go have to bowl 20 overs on day one because you're going to pay for that in the second innings. And I thought he did a decent job, and then he got a bit tired because guess what, he hasn't bowled, hasn't done the long spells, and then the inconsistency came in. Came.

22 overs, 2 maidens, 0 for 97 from, uh, Shoaib Bashir today. Earlier he went 16 overs, 2 maidens, 0 for 54. So yeah, it's more expensive in that third spell. Well, the player of the day was Devon Conway along with Tom Latham. Conway making 157. He's been speaking to Dan as well.

So you and Tom are making a bit of a habit of 300-plus opening partnerships. That's your second in 5 games. What's the secret to your partnership?

I think it's just keeping it simple, really. Just keep reminding each other of those things that work for the two of us, you know, dialing into the partnership and keeping it simple, like I say.

You've got 8 Test centuries and 4 of them have been 150-plus. Is that a part of your game you're particularly proud of?

Yeah, I think, you know, sometimes as an opening batter or a top-order batter, you always try and go as big as you can because you know that you're going to go through periods where you might not score the runs you want to get or do the job that you want to do for the team. I think it's very important that if you get that opportunity, go in and cash in, make it big.

Let me into your mind when Tom won the toss. How are you feeling at that point?

I was nervous, admittedly. You know, like, I think, you know, the pressure is actually on you now because you've decided what you want to do. And I just thought, you know, right, let's just try and give it our best, you know, just try and put pressure on the bowlers, build these partnerships, and do these things that we do for long periods of time. So I was a little bit nervous, but I'm thankful that, you know, at the end of the day, it's— we're sitting the way we are sitting now.

Give us an insight into the conditions out there. I mean, we're in a commentary box, it's still— we can still feel the heat. You're right out there in the middle. How testing were they?

Yeah, certainly very hot. Can confirm was very hot. Wicket's obviously really nice. There was a little bit in it for the bowlers, you know, there was times where it beat the bat, made it pretty challenging for us, but You know, we just felt as soon as that ball got a little bit softer, it was going to be easier to score. And with the heat, you know, it was obviously hard for the bowlers to do it for extended periods of time. So I'm pretty grateful that we built a nice partnership like we did.

Did you sense at all any hint of reverse at any point where we're all looking out to see if the ball would move? It didn't seem to do a great deal today.

No, I didn't see any reverse throughout our time in the middle. We did see a little bit of swing, particularly for Stokesy. He was swinging both ways at a period there, hit consistently, lengths made a little bit tricky for us at times. So we just try to identify those periods, try to get through it, and just reminding each other that, right, keep looking straight, keep doing those simple things for long periods.

A feature of your partnership was the speed at which you went. You were going at well over 4 and over. Were you conscious that you need to make time up in the game because, you know, you've got to take 20 wickets at some point?

Not necessarily. I think the nature of this field, of the fight fast outfield allowed us to sort of like keep that scoring rate ticking, you know, try to be busy, particularly against the spinners as well. So we didn't really look into it, but thankfully that run rate kept us going nicely.

You picked back a little bit at the end, losing those 4 wickets. You must be really disappointed to lose one in the last over the day, but still there's power to add. Have you got a number in mind and a time in mind?

I don't think we've got a number in mind at this stage. We'll probably have some discussions tonight. But, um, a little bit disappointing we lost two at the end there. Naturally, two very good players of ours. But we've got lots of batting to come too still. So I think for us it's just about doing things for longer, just keep building those, those partnerships, and then we'll see where we get to at the end of tomorrow.

So congratulations on a great knock and a great partnership.

Thank you so much, appreciate it. Cheers.

Devon Conway talking to Daniel Norcross. Devon Conway today, part of a record-breaking stand with Tom Latham and his altsman.

Uh, yes, the highest stand for New Zealand against England in Test cricket, breaking the 276. Stood since the second Test between England and New Zealand back in 1913. This is the 118th. Um, so yeah, a record-breaking partnership. Uh, New Zealand's third highest opening stand against anyone, um, uh, the third highest opening stand by a team against England. Only the second time two New Zealand openers have made 150 in the same innings, and only the second time two opposing openers have both made 150 in innings against England. The other were Gibbs and Smith for South Africa in 2003. Um, looking at the, uh, the recent partnerships between Latham and Conway, uh, 323 and 192 against West Indies in December. Since, when? 4 against Ireland, 2-0 at Lord's, 14-8 at the Oval. They'd scored 23 in their 4 opening stands in the series up to today, and then 317, uh, today. So I looked at the, um, not just Test cricket but all first-class cricket, and no team has ever, um, won a match having conceded an opening partnership of over 280 in the first innings of the match. Um, so England would have to do something that has never been done before. However, those 4 wickets in the final hour or so have brought that into the realm not only of possibility but of the experience of, of this team. 20 teams have won Tests having conceded, having had 350 on the board and only 4 wickets down in the first innings. England have done so 3 times under their current, uh, sort of captaincy and management partnership since the start of the Bazball era. They did so last year against India. In fact, India got to 447 before their fourth wicket fell at Headingley in the first test last year. At the end of day one, they were 359 for 3. In Multan, the game in which England made over 800 in response to Pakistan's first innings, Pakistan were 388 before their fourth wicket fell in the first innings, 328 for 4 at the end of day 1. And New Zealand, 4 years ago here in Nottingham, they reached 405, um, for 4, uh, uh, then they were 496 for 5 at the end of day 1. They were 318 for 4. So they have— this England team has experience of winning from this position, albeit they will have to set that new record for highest opening partnership conceded, uh, at the start of a game by a team that then went on to win. We saw a couple of, uh, Another sort of unusual thing, Shoaib Bashir was brought on for the 11th over of the innings. Was it the— yeah, it was the 11th over. That's the second earliest an England spinner has bowled in a home Test match since 1961. So yeah, curious, curious day. But England, in terms of trying to win this game, have moved from completely unprecedented to now something that they have considerable recent experience of achieving.

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Make your summer sizzle.

So Ben Stokes back here as England captain, but could it mark the end of the latest controversy around Stokes and Gus Atkinson? And what could the long-term implications be for the hierarchy of the England team? Agus sat down with Will McPherson from The Telegraph and Wisden editor Lawrence Booth.

Where are— I mean, it just, it does— the whole thing seems so bizarre, doesn't it? And there we are, we're both in Australia, witness all of that, and then the talk of the reset and everyone remaining in place, but we know it's going to be done differently now on. And it just seemed to me that the sort of the least likely story that would break at the end of the first Test match of the summer with the reset would be, would be this.

Yeah, you'd think so. You'd think that all eyes were on the behavior of the English after the drink-related stories from both New Zealand and Australia. It was the ECB's worst nightmare. They win the first test, the reset begins, and within hours the story is that Ben Stokes and Gus Atkinson were out after midnight on a Sunday, Monday morning. And I mean, you know, he's been asked a lot of questions about his relationship with McCullum. I thought the telling detail from his interview there with Stefan was when he was asked whether he felt supported by the CCB.

Zero.

And he sidestepped it.

Yeah.

And that is the issue at the moment. I think McCullum and Stokes have stuck plausibly to this idea that creative tension is fine, and that is what you'd expect from two strong personalities, and that is good for the team. But there is this underlying suspicion of what Stokes would call the suits. Dates back to Bristol in 2017, and that has reared its head again now.

Yes.

What was your reaction, Will, when all this started off?

Well, I was, I was stunned, um, but, and it's been an extraordinary— we're at sort of 2 and a half weeks now of the crisis, aren't we? But, um, it's been an extraordinary period, extraordinary chapter in English cricket. But you mentioned Australia, and my reaction to it actually is that the winter had a very—

has a—

is proving to have a very long tail, um, longer than England's tail at The Oval last week, um, but they had an opportunity in February to to make a change, uh, to the, to the backroom staff, a coaching staff, or even the captaincy, or anyone— Rob Key, Brendan McCullum. But they didn't do that. They tried to perform a reset with exactly the same people in posts and all of the baggage that came with that. And the first thing I, I feel is that this wouldn't have happened if a new structure was in charge. Stokes wouldn't have gone out and done what he did by staying out after midnight if he was working with someone new and it was, you know, in that honeymoon period and everything was fresh and it was all about getting off on the right tone. And then the other thing about the winter is that ECB's reaction to this, and at this stage we could probably say initial overreaction, is entirely down to their underreaction to Harry Brook, the Harry Brook saga.

Well, I was going to come to that because, I mean, and you've kind of answered it, but did you think their initial statement actually was just, you know, to kind of— they didn't know the facts. Uh, it was extraordinary to put that statement out and knowing so little and with it actually showing that a lot of it wasn't, wasn't true.

I think they probably had to get something out because, um, having covered up essentially or buried their heads in the sand over Brook, uh, and then it eventually comes out in the media at the end of the Ashes, so a long time afterwards, they didn't, they couldn't, the fact that there were Saracens rugby players involved and things like that meant that they couldn't allow this to just lie there. They had to say something about what had happened, but it made it sound like something very bad had happened. And then as time passed, they were clearly extremely angry as their initial reaction that this had happened, but as time passed and those, I mean, McCullum described it as anger turning to bewilderment and, you know, as they calmed down and they— and the investigation unfolded, it became clear that the crime was staying out after midnight and not much more, and that that— whether that is actually a formal crime is unclear because it wasn't— the curfew, which, you know, people did know was in place, we all certainly knew it was in place, but it wasn't codified clearly enough. So it's ended up being this situation where the management feel the players have done something wrong, but they're actually unable to pin on them what they've actually done wrong.

Yeah, I think the, the fact that it seems that the curfew wasn't properly conveyed to the players, or that they even thought that it didn't apply once a home test was finished, has added to the sense that a lack of control by the management, and that has fed into the, the sense of chaos around the team that was in Australia. So where the mood in the initial 24 hours after the Rex rooms was very much, why on earth would Stokes do that? It then changed over the preceding few, the next few days to, hang on, well, have the ECB controlled this properly and who is, who's managing the players? So I think the pressure has moved from Stokes to potentially Rob Key, the managing director. And also I think it's the ECB have, it's become apparent, and Stokes alluded to this, the love of the fans, that the man and woman in the stands are on Stokes's side. He came on to bowl today at whatever it was, 12:25, and there was big cheers in the crowd. It was, it was a telling moment. It was also telling that in his press conference yesterday, he spoke about how overwhelmed he'd been by the public reaction. And again, it felt like a bit of a dig at the ECB because he was very much saying, this is where I draw my sustenance and my support and my sort of my moral help. So I think, you know, things have public opinion has swung against the ECB.

Yeah, it does seem extraordinary that there isn't a code of conduct book, doesn't it? That when you get selected for England, you know, every sort of every year or something, because things do change, but there is a little book and there you go, that's, that's, that's what actually what you must go and read that. And things like details, I mean, I hate the idea of a curfew. I've said it throughout this saga, if you need to impose a curfew you on a team, you've— they're swinging very wrong. It's going very wrong if the players aren't in bed and preparing themselves. But surely that, you know, for them not to know, for them to be that level of ignorance, to use it in those terms, of what actually was in place and what wasn't seems extraordinary.

Yes, definitely. I'm kind of amazed that when the Test squad gathered at Loughborough for the start of the summer, there wasn't want, you know, a kind of almost like a— it sounds a little bit kind of, um, sort of W1A or something, but a sort of, uh, values. What do we stand for as if we enter this new era? Because we— the old England team before the Ashes, we knew exactly what they stood for, but now I think it's less clear. And if there's one thing you could criticize this management for throughout their time in charge, it would be a lack of detail and running a— McCollum likes to say runs a casual or informal operation, doesn't he, rather than, you know, other people would say it's lax and loose, and certainly it kind of, by the end of the Ashes, it felt like it was the, it was the, it sort of gone out of control a little bit. Clearly the players have contracts and the way they behave is sort of in trident then, but The new curfew was a big— quite a lot being made about it in the media, but for then that not to be portrayed in writing to the players was— it's difficult to justify.

Is it a concern to both of you that actually that a curfew is necessary? I mean, these are international sportsmen playing for their country, earning an awful lot of money, which is kind of irrelevant really. The fact is, you are— this is, this is your life, it's your career, it's your, it's your childhood dream. Isn't there something wrong if, if, if, if they're not— if the discipline isn't there? And the self-professionalism, you know, I guess that's the word I'm looking for, to make sure that you can give of your very best the next day.

Well, I think you can make the argument that the presence of Stokes and Atkinson in the Rex rooms at 1:30 AM, whatever it was, was proof that they needed a curfew. Yes. And, you know, we, we say that they're grown adults and they should know better, but Clearly not. They must have known that all eyes would be on England's off-field behaviour after the Ashes. The public needed convincing that they were a serious professional outfit, and what does the captain do on the first night? Regardless of the details of the curfew, it's the— and I don't like the word, but it is the optics. And English cricket's optics have been woeful for a long time now. So I think that's what really irritated the ECB. This is why we have the curfew. This is why we have to treat you like kids. And in a way, they confirm their worst prejudices.

I find the curfew issue interesting because, you know, you're a former player. I haven't heard any former player who likes the idea of a curfew. I actually, I think the Harry Brook situation was evidence that England do need one.

I don't, I hate, I don't want to have one, but they brought it on themselves. You know, that is what, what, they duck it at Noosa or whatever, you know, they have brought this on themselves and it's up to players. I've curfew. Players have got to take some responsibility.

Brooke was an England captain who, hours before leading the team in an international, was drunk enough that someone took a swing at him outside a nightclub in Wellington. And if, if that's not a trigger for requiring a curfew, I don't know what the threshold is, basically. So I'm for— I, I don't like the— I don't think they should need one, but I think they do need one.

Yeah.

Do you have any sympathy for the board? I mean, there they are, they're trying this reset, they've had their review which appeared to be an entirely internal kind of review. They didn't take it outside, which is a shame. I think they should have done. But they've had their review, decided what they're going to do, and they know the optics are bad. They know what, what the reputation of their team is. For this to happen, does that explain then why the frustration and that, that first statement and the, and all the stuff that came afterwards?

Yeah, I do have some sympathy with them. It was as said earlier, their worst nightmare. You couldn't have scripted a worse thing to happen after everything that had gone on in Australia. On the other hand, we haven't heard an awful lot from the suits, as Ben Stokes might call them. No, I haven't seen them. It will be interesting to get their explicit perspective on this. And of course, they are paying the price, as Will mentioned earlier, for their failure to deal properly with the Brook incident in the first place. Though they denied this, they swept it under the carpet for several months. And it meant that the whole discussion around English cricket's relationship with booze was put off until it was too late. You know, had we had that discussion before the Ashes, then Noosa might have happened differently, or the players might have been told, look, you cannot afford to be seen out drunk. Ben Duckett, you can't be on that video. So this has not been handled properly. And interesting seeing the developments of the last week where public opinion opinion has seemed to sway back towards Stokes. And I do think, are we just enabling the next alcohol-related fiasco by, by doing this? Um, will we ever get to grips with this?

So do you think the public, the cricket public, did understand why there was an issue? I mean, you can go a bit beneath the lines, but, but there was an awful lot of, why shouldn't two players go out and celebrate a victory? And of course, that— well, of course they can. They can go and celebrate the victory, but it's the context of all that's happened over the last few months, really.

Exactly. In that first week of the crisis, a lot of people were anti-Stokes, actually. A lot of people were saying, well, what the hell is the captain doing in a nightclub after midnight? And I think that's a fair enough perspective too, but it just— as time passed and it became clear that the crime itself was not grievous, we weren't in a sort of good for me, like a Bristol situation or even a Brooks situation. It was, it was different to that. And you kind of— on the point about sympathy for Board, I definitely have sympathy for Board. And I actually am watching an England setup that has changed for this summer. The approach of McCullum, obviously, is less hands-on here, but the approach of McCullum has changed. He has addressed some of the— quite a lot of the criticism of them from the winter and the point they'd reached. So I felt for the people having to deal with it. However, it does feel like it was slightly rushed to a place and then have kind of had to backpedal a little bit.

Do we feel that what they're desperately trying to do is they see the end of next summer as being a watershed? Stokes will probably finish, then McCullum will probably finish, and then it's kind of— it's to get to that stage in the best possible shape. Does that feel that you think the board is driving towards?

Well, I'm sure that's what they'd like, but the issue we have here is if England lose this game, and let's face it, they're not well placed at lunch on day one, um, that's going to throw up all kinds of questions about should someone pay the price. I mean, this is supposed to be— this series was supposed to be the start of the post-Ashes reset. Yes, people weren't belittling New Zealand, but they thought, well, England should really beat New Zealand at home, and then we'll move on, we'll beat Pakistan Afghanistan to fall, potentially fall at the first hurdle is a bad moment for the ECB. They look at the Oval, the defeat there, and go, that wasn't McCullum's fault. They're still angry that Ben Stokes effectively led them to the position where they had to field a weakened team.

And this question of stories coming out and the question of, you know, the stuff that's been written and said about the so-called differences between McCullum and Stokes. They both seemed to sort of be surprised, or, um, yeah, not, not sure where that sort of stuff has been coming from. But what, what do you make of that?

Well, they're doing a good job of putting on a united front this week. They are doing a good job of that. But training yesterday, there was a lot of kind of chumminess. Yeah, chumminess, uh, physical touching, hugs, high fives, that kind of thing. But, um, look, there's never been a suggestion in the media that Stokes and McCullum have had some kind of blazing row and fallen out and can't stand the sight of each other. That's not the case. What has changed is that some, some stage across that 10-match run against India and Australia, the highest pressure, their views on how the game should be played and the team should be run essentially diverged. McCullum was sticking to the principles that they'd, uh, had success with for a couple of years. And Stokes had— Stokes looked to me in the Ashes like a man who was realizing how hard Test cricket is and how hard Ashes cricket is and was trying to kind of bloody-mindedly dog his way through it. He used the word dog himself, didn't he? Whereas McCullum wanted England to stick to the way. And so they just weren't on the same page quite as much as they were. Now they're explaining it away as kind of a little bit of creative tension and differences and things like that. There wasn't much of that in the first couple of years. There wasn't. They were— they seemed to be aligned on everything. They were almost like— it was almost like Stokes is— the coach was the captain's older brother, and they were kind of—

but they were winning games then. And actually, as soon as the pressure changes, you start losing games, especially those that they, they should have won. And I'm thinking of things like, you know, India at the Oval and so on. That, that's when these differences can open up.

Well, that is the key. I mean, going into this game, it was clear that only one thing would save all the debate was England winning.

Yes.

And now they're, they're up against it, aren't they?

They've won 2 of their, their last, what is it, 8 Tests. And they were both, uh, 2-day affairs that they've won. I'm not saying they didn't do well to win those games, they were the better team in both of them. But, um, results are not in this management's favor. And if we, England, get out of this series having lost the first 3-match series at home since 2012, um, they normally win these series. If they don't, the end of the Ashes looks a long way away, I think.

Yeah. Does it matter if they're not entirely on the same page, captain and coach? Are they both very stubborn individuals, aren't they? And I can't see either of them necessarily yielding.

No, no, you don't want them thinking exactly the same thing. You want some people to go, hang on, I disagree with that.

You need, you need to have some sort of conversation though, you sort of debate.

You absolutely I certainly do, but I think they're being slightly disingenuous when they say they have no idea where this has come from. I mean, the public statements in the Ashes, particularly between the second and third tests in Brisbane and Adelaide, made it quite clear that they were looking at the cricket differently. Stokes was going on about how Australia was no place for weak men.

Yes.

McCullum wants to calm everyone down and chill, chill guys. So no, there was definitely a divergence, and they're still paying the price, I think, a bit for that perception.

But it's a key relationship, isn't it?

In cricket, isn't it?

It doesn't matter what Ben Stokes thinks of the suits really, but if the captain-coach axis isn't working well together— you look at all the— Michael Vaughan wrote his column the other day about the good periods of English cricket this century. Fletcher working with him and Nasser, Strauss and Flower, Bayliss and Morgan. And for a period, the Baz Ballers had that, and I think they're losing it.

Yeah.

What could happen, or what might— do you think probably should happen if England lose this series?

Well, I think some of the focus will come on the fact that the curfew was not properly conveyed to the players, because I think they will want a neck on the block, unfortunately. And that might put the pressure on Rob Key, I think. I don't see McCullum— I think because the ECB don't blame McCullum for what happened at the Oval. So, well, we can't judge a guy when he was— there were, there were 5 players with 2 caps between them.

Yeah.

So we need— so I think that McCollum, weirdly, his position has been slightly strengthened by this. And some of the things have been said by both he— by both him and Stokes in the media have been that we've looked after each other. So I don't think he, he's the man under pressure. Stokes is an interesting one. He, again, one of the many questions he refused to answer properly during the interviews was his future. Does he want to captain England? He wouldn't go into that. He was very much, no, I want the focus on this game. And that may have been because he doesn't want more Stokes-related headlines dominating the cricket. He needs to focus on this. On the other hand, the lack of certainty has opened the door to all kinds of speculation about his future as captain.

Well, thanks to Aggers, Will Macpherson, and Lawrence Booth there. That's it for this episode of the TMS Podcast. Make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode. You can watch highlights on today at the Test on iPlayer 2. TMS is on air every day of the Trent Bridge Test from 10:30 AM on BBC Sounds and Five Sports Extra.

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