England v New Zealand: Sensational day for seamers as wickets tumble

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

So close to play on the first day of the Test summer for England's men. Well, it's been a dramatic day. 16 wickets for 201 runs in 59 overs. 2 breaks for bad weather, but plenty of action and plenty to talk about. Michael Vaughan is here, Jonathan Agnew is here. So fundamental question, Michael, 16 wickets, was it a 16-wicket pitch?

Well, yeah, because it's, it's happened, um, you know, we've watched throughout the whole day and, and the pitch has done plenty. There's been plenty of movement, but it, there's been a, a length that the bowlers have been able to bowl which has been quite a large length, and it's kind of skidded off that length and hitting the top of the stumps. That's why I've seen so many LBWs. We've seen a few bowls, seen a couple of balls that The batters have left the deliveries. Um, well, I don't think it's been easy for batting. I actually, I'm smiling and chuckling to myself because, um, if there was ever a day for Bazball to be been out there playing, it was today. I, I looked at, you know, Harry Brook, the way that he played. Look at Glenn Phillips towards the back end today, playing a few shots, trying to get on the front foot, taking a little bit of a risk. Um, it, I think it's kind of pitched that there is a ball with your name on it. And those that have kind of gotten and done okay have been those that have been aggressive. So Harry Brook, Glenn Phillips. And, uh, I didn't expect— and I wouldn't think that England could have dared risk playing that method, but if there was ever a day for the Bazball method to have been out there, it was on that kind of pitch today.

So perversely, if England had played in the Bazball fashion that we've seen in the past, do you think they would have done better than 140? I was a bit hypothetical.

I mean, you don't know.

I just— I, I think they would have got a few more. Yeah, I think they just scored a bit quicker and Um, like, it wouldn't have been easy and we'd probably seen some poor strokes and would have been criticizing them up here. But, you know, from what I've seen on that pitch today, there's certainly been a number of balls where, you know, we've seen snick-offs and we've seen a lot of LBWs where the players have been kind of on the front foot playing a forward defense and the ball's just thudded into the pads. That tells you that the pitch is a little bit inconsistent in terms of bounce. Um, well, I've been royally entertained. 16 wickets on day 1. I don't think it's a good pitch. I, I think the MCC will, will be the first to admit that there's something not quite right with this square at Lord's. It's been an issue now for, for a few years where we've— the Test match against India last year, brilliant game, and it was a great finish to a Test match, but the pitch wasn't great. And the Test match being, you know, so good in the end, I guess, stopped us all talking about the pitch. This isn't a great Test match wicket, but, uh, we're royally entertained, and I'm sure we'll have a great Test match.

6 LBWs, 3 bold, 3 caught at slip, 2 caught behind, 1 caught at short leg, and 1 caught at fine leg. That's how the dismissals have panned out today.

If you take, if you take Harry Brook's— if Harry Brook had been caught on 8, England would have been 90 all out, and there's been 61 for 6. I mean, it's bizarre.

New Zealand would have probably been at parity by now, or England would have been batting again. Yeah, yeah.

But I mean, that drop catch Yeah, and how crucial that's going to prove. But Michael's right, I think, and not only has it done sideways, but it is up and down as well. And from a batting perspective, that's difficult. That, that, that really is that awkward. We've seen Josh Tunga find some bounce. O'Rourke found some bounce, ball he got Root out with. Um, but I think the bowlers have used the slope very well too. And the, and the captains have had them at the right ends, Tunga and O'Rourke bowling from the pavilion end. With the slope as it is, both the ability just just to make the ball hold its own on that off stump. It's perfect. They've both got bowlers who are massively effective at that. Robinson from this end sliding the ball down with the slope, you know. So it's the bowlers have had most things in their favor today.

What about Emilio Gay's first day in Test cricket? Yeah, that's got a long build-up because we have that sort of ceremonies before the start of play. Today there was the silence for the England players who died since there was a last test match in this country. Then we had the national anthems as well.

It's kind of—

it's kind of always a big build-up at the start of a test match. Got a long time to kind of think about it standing out there. He hit his first ball in test cricket for 4. It was a lovely friendly full toss, shin-high full banger outside the off stump.

I mean, you couldn't have asked for a better ball.

It's funny, he'll have dreamt for that moment for many, many years. And you know, he'd have watched many test matches and watched the likes of McGrath bowling probably bum-rub bowling. I can't imagine, he probably was like, what's this? Yeah, he almost panicked because he got a full toss. But there's not been so many brilliant shots today, but I thought he played possibly the shot of the day. That on-drive was a lovely drive, um, gets a good ball. Um, obviously we're going to analyze technique and that front foot going across, maybe the bat coming a bit from gully line and kind of going across the ball.

But that—

what do you mean by the front foot going across?

That front foot kind of presses outside off stump.

Which means—

that means, that means if the ball nips back, you're not quite in alignment to get your back coming down straight towards the, the line of the ball. And if the ball nibbles away, which does again, he's coming across the line of the ball from which he's come from. So that's something that he might have to iron out, but you can't analyze a debutant on this kind of surface.

Um, he looked relaxed. I mean, you say that, I mean, he didn't look out of place, did he? I mean, he seemed quite calm, but no, I mean, you know, It looks good. Short leg. I wonder how often he's fielded in there. It's always the young lad, isn't it?

I will whisper to him if I see him in the morning, I'll say, you don't want to look too good, you'll have a long time under that lid.

Yeah, but it's what happens, you do drop people, isn't it? Bell got dropped, who's going to do it? Ollie Pope gets dropped, wow, who's going to be short leg? I mean, it is not— they happen very much these days, but took a nice catch.

I actually think that the best tactical move of the day Ben Stokes produced And I think it's the third ball, Ollie Robinson, Devon Conway, the first two ball on a perfect length, nicked down the slope. He played a full defense, kind of hit the inside edge of the bat. Suddenly Ben Stokes, it wasn't Ollie Robinson, he went short leg in, had a leg slip, and suddenly Devon Conway goes a bit further over, that ball nicks back, he gets an LBW. And then pretty much from that move, short leg was in place because, and he was in the game.

Absolutely, because short leg, I've always argued this, short leg doesn't necessarily get catches, it's what it does to the batsman. The LBWs, or the, you know, it's, it's, it's the way it plays around with the batsman and his mind, isn't it. It's more than just caught short leg, it's, it's what it, it's what it does.

Yeah, and then obviously he's in there for Kane Williamson, gets the catch. But, uh, that was a brilliant tactical move from Ben Stokes.

And there was nearly a run out from a superb piece of fielding from Gay at short leg as well. It wasn't just the catch, it was also how he fielded it at short leg. He was excellent there. Daryl Mitchell just falling over at one point, and if the throw hit the stumps, he would have been run out. Let's just go back to England's innings and a couple of dismissals. I, I I totally take the point. It was a tricky pitch on which to bat today. Jacob Bethell missed his full ball by quite a long way, didn't he? I mean, is that just one of those kind of like hangovers from not really playing any red ball cricket, or what is it? It was a full ball, he went to clip it through mid-wicket but missed it by a long way. Was LBW? Yeah, I mean, I think it came back up the slope enough, enough for him to miss it by a long way, by a good distance.

So again, I I can't judge the batting unit on today, you know. I just think it's, uh, it's been a little bit of a lottery. Um, you know, you look at Harry Brook, he has a bit of fortune on 8 or 9.

Yeah, twice.

And I think it's that kind of surface that you need a little bit of luck, you need a little bit of fortune. I think if you just try and play the, the traditional way, and I do think there'll be a ball with your name on it, so it's very hard to assess batting on, on a pitch that's offered so much. And there's so, so much inconsistency with the— with that. Look, let's hope it gets better. I think if the pitch gets better and we can then assess the batting unit a little bit more carefully. But the one thing I will say is I think England will potentially go back to their buzz ball method tomorrow. I think they'll probably speak in the dressing room and go, okay, you know, we've played on that pitch now, have a look. Of course, have a look, and if it plays flatter, you just bat. But if it does start to nip around a bit, well, we as a team have to buy into being a bit more proactive and try and get them on the front foot. You've got to remember Matt Henry's off the park.

He's—

but I was going to say, I'll tell you who the busiest man tonight is going to be, the New Zealand physio.

Absolutely.

They need him on the field because if, if England start batting and they're a seamer down, that, that could be a really big advantage.

You'd agree, wouldn't you, that for England tomorrow, if they went out and played a bit more expansively, you wouldn't criticize them tomorrow if the if they tried it that way.

Well, we go back to that situation again of reckless or positive, don't we? If they go out and play positive, that's great. But if you see reckless batting that costs you the game, which is what they've talked about, we've seen in the past, yeah, I wouldn't be happy with that. But I would like to play— my Phillips has gone out and played positively, hasn't he? He's not doing anything.

In actual fact, Harry Brook, there was only, uh, you know, he danced down a couple of times. One thing I say about Harry Brook is I don't want him dancing down to try and launch. I think getting down the wicket is a really good option because it nullifies LBW. And you know, as a bowler, you're running to bowl going, when's he coming? I think he dances down.

They never charged me, Michael.

But I, I think he could almost play the bowler by going down the wicket and not launching, just playing.

Yeah, absolutely.

Just getting into that.

That's why— that's my thing about reckless and, and positive, isn't it?

Well, he danced down to Kyle Jamieson. He tried to launch one, inside edged it, passed mid-on for 4. The next ball, he went back in his crease, and he'll say By dancing down, he gets that next delivery because of the dance down, and he played the most perfect on-drive. He went pop straight down the ground, and it's just that motion of going down the wicket. He doesn't have to go down the wicket to launch it, go down the wicket to just get into the bowler's minds.

Let's, um, go out to the middle and hear from Alison Mitchell, who's with Ollie Robinson.

Yeah, thanks, Simon. Ollie, wow, what a day, and welcome back to Test cricket. You must have absolutely loved it out there.

Yeah, thank you. Amazing. I'm just saying, I'm so speechless about how it's gone. Couldn't really have dreamt up that day. I think when we lost the toss and got stuck in, we're expecting to hopefully be batting all day. It didn't obviously go our way, but then to come out there with the ball as a collective, as a whole group, we were right on it from ball one. And yeah, just amazing. It's just such a special day. I have no words, to be honest.

What about the surface and the atmospheric conditions? How much, you know, both of those factors play in?

Yeah, I think the atmosphere has played a big role today. It felt like when the sun come out and Brookie was going quite nicely, it was sort of doing a little bit less. And then this evening again, the cloud come over and I felt like both teams just bowled really well. Both teams hit the stumps a lot. And just didn't really give either batting team a lot to score off. So I think credit to both teams. We've still got a job to do and mop them up in the morning. But yeah, what a first day of cricket.

I mean, what a first over for you. First over back. If I could get you to almost talk through some of your plans for each of those deliveries.

Yeah, I've only bowled at this end before, the Pavilion end before. So to bowl from Nursery End, I sort of had to adjust how I was going to bowl. And I was just thinking about keeping the stumps in play, trying to wobble it down the slope. Looking at the footage, I knew Conway was getting a long way across, so I was trying to get him sort of trapped on the crease LBW. And then Kane, it's just that, just holding that channel to him. And to be honest, that ball was actually just meant to hold and it hit back off the surface. And again, sometimes they just go your way. But yeah, what we're seeing was working really well out there today, a little bit of nip. Yeah, just incredible really. The first, the first over was just, I just couldn't feel my legs, I was so nervous. And then to get the first wicket and the emotion coming out is just incredible. And I started to come back down to earth and sort of be able to get into my work a bit more.

We saw your skills first time around in the Test arena. To what extent have you developed them, you know, to an even greater degree now? How much control do you feel you've got of for example, the wobble ball and where that might go, or where it, you know, do you know where the wobble ball is going to go?

Yeah, I've got a different grip for both to go up and down the slope, but today it was just about honing in on probably one ball and just trying to stay really consistent. We had a chat about the pitch probably doing enough. I mean, you don't have to try and do too many things. And the style of my bowling is just trying to be ultra patient and luckily hit the right area with that patience. Today and got the rewards. A few LBs went my way as well, which on another day you don't always get.

Buying Rod Tucker a drink later?

Yeah, definitely. Maybe two.

When you got that text message from Brendan McCullum saying, you know, you're in our thoughts if you do well, you know, you're in. What did you then think? Right, this is what I need to do from here on in. What would you say you did? You know, I mean, taking wickets obviously, but, you know, around and on top of that.

Yeah, I was in a place where I never thought I was going to play for England again, to be honest. And to get the text from Baz and the call from Keezy, it really shifted my mindset onto sort of the hard work's just starting. And I was just enjoying myself, to be honest. I put on a bit of weight and probably wasn't where I needed to be to play for England back in March, April. So I knew that to get back in the team, I knew the first date of the Test match, obviously there was a lot of work and the work's still not finished. It's obviously Obviously still a work in progress, but I've tried my best to get into the best condition I possibly can do for now, for today. And I know that there's a lot of hard work ahead. And yeah, that's down to me to keep pushing and keep doing that work.

A very quick one on the match situation then. You've obviously got these wickets tonight, but in such a low-scoring game, it's still going to be vitally important as it's come out strong tomorrow.

Yeah, definitely. We have to clean them up quite quickly. Phillips played nicely there at the end. He was a bit more positive and made it hard for our bowlers to bowl to.

So we can get a couple of quick ones in the morning.

Um, hopefully there's a little bit of sun tomorrow and we can get the batting boots back on.

Well done, Ollie. Great to chat.

Thank you.

Cheers.

That is Ollie Robinson talking to Alison Mitchell. Phillips is 31 not out, and he took a triple wicket maiden to start his spell. That's only the fourth time that's ever happened in Test cricket.

John, wasn't it lovely to hear? It's an honest interview. Yeah, I mean, proper emotion about being back again, how thrilled he was. I saw him this morning, he was just saying he was just like bursting, uh, you know, not feeling his legs running. I know exactly, you know, you just, just all of that, the excitement of being back and the recognition of the hard work that he had to do to get back. All, you know, that's, that's the sort of interview it's really nice to hear, isn't it? Someone who's just really chuffed to be back again and who's worked hard to get back to this, and he's picked up his rewards today.

He had a bit of good fortune.

He did. He mentioned that as well, those two LBWs. And there'll be some chuntering, I'm sure, in the New Zealand dressing room, as there would be in any dressing room, to have two to have two umpire calls, you know, for leg side in an over is pretty tough actually.

Well, let's bring in Jeremy Coney.

He'll chunter.

No, not really. I mean, that's the rule, hitting the stumps, weren't they? Well, and I think one over. Yes, just, yes, just. But nevertheless, you missed it, you were beaten. Um, I'd, yeah, two in an over, or where it was, you know, you might feel that's a bit stiff, but nevertheless You know, that's— they're the rules, aren't they? You know, they managed to convince them. Ump thought about it for a while, gave it out. You got to live with that. How would you guys feel? How would you guys feel?

Can't dwell on it. You can't let it fester.

That's the thing. The negative batter will go in the dressing room and complain, throw his bat. Yeah, but I personally would look at Devon Conway. I think he's getting far too far over, so he's going to get challenged with any bowler looking at the way that he moves over to kind of off stump and go, he's going to try and hit the pad. I don't understand why he's trying to get so far over, you know. I, I just stay on neutral, you know, middle stump, and play, play the ball from where it's come from. I do think this leg slip's causing a bit of chaos with batters. I really like this maneuver to this, you know, it's a modern thing where we see this leg slip on a number of occasions. And I think you've got your three slips in your, in your gully, and you've got this leg slip. There's like a square leg that seems to be void. And I think a lot of batters are kind of so wary. I don't know why.

Wouldn't that suggest that you don't move then? Correct. I mean, because you're trying to rule out the cordon by getting to your off stump and getting your outside eye over the off stump, and I'll let it go. But that, of course, then exposes the leg stump, and you're starting to play it.

If you've got a leg slip or 3 slips and a gully, I still think you've got to stay neutral. It's kind of right, just stay neutral, hit the ball from where it's come from. I think a lot of these batters are, I think, sometimes overcomplicating the game.

Is he there for the face of the bat catch?

He's looking for— I think so. Down the leg side, you just flick it instinctively, just flicking off your hip. Yeah, that's what he's there for.

Yeah, yeah.

You can't play from off stump. I'm dead against it, actually. A, you're defensive, you're coming across the ball. B, you can nick it off sixth stump anyway. C, you can't really hit the ball really on the leg side other than the— for a wide of mid-on, uh, because it's— you're only using half a bat and you run the risk— your pads are right in front of the stumps. Anyway, it's too close to cut if you get a cut. I just think everything is wrong about batting on off stump.

Well, taking your guard on off stump, correct.

Yeah.

How did you see New Zealand's batting effort, Jeremy, after they bowled England out for 140?

Oh, they were— well, defensively they couldn't hit the ball. They were missing the ball all the time. That's why there were LBWs. They couldn't, they couldn't get in. They don't look as if they can score against England. England seem to just worry them. Robinson, okay, we haven't learned much about his fitness today yet, or his durability, because it was only 6 overs. But you can't argue with his consistency. You can't argue with the way he, he's able to control his body to get to the right place and to get nice and high so that the ball is going into the pitch as much as it possibly can, and then can do it from there. And then he's got magic in his little fingers You know, that's the rhythm and music of medium-fast bowling, and that's why he's such a good— you know, he's so consistent. Whether he can keep his speed— it was all between 77 and 81— and if he can keep that, then he can do the job.

So this— I don't know what you feel about it. It's the, it's the perfect comeback week for Ollie Robinson.

It's a good pitch for him, let's be fair.

Correct. He's got a pitch that's nibbling, perfect for his style of bowling. And let's be honest, I don't think the batting teams are going to bat for 120 overs, which would challenge his fitness. You're talking 30 to 60 overs potentially that you're going to have to be out there in the dirt. So that's not going to challenge a spell, then another spell a few hours later, and coming back the next morning. This is the perfect comeback week.

And the New Zealand bowlers, uh, Jeremy Jameson took 5, but did he impress you the most, or did you also like Willow Rourke and where he bowled today?

I like Willow Rourke better, actually. Uh, Jamieson bowled some loose deliveries. He went for a few, didn't he? Um, on the— in this condition, you know, in these, these conditions, I thought that he's, he's had to change. That's the hard thing. And I think the nice thing about it is that he's had two stress fractures in the same site, and he's been able to, to just adapt himself and become a swing bowler. Basically, he's lost pace but he's still finding a way to play. And it's nice to get a good day, especially a place like this, I, I think, for him.

So Jameson, 5 today. Smith, 2 for 38. Willow Rourke, 11 overs, 2 maidens, 2 for 29. He got rid of Bethell and—

and sorry, and Root.

Yeah, good ball to get rid of Root. Let's hear from him now, speaking to Alison Mitchell.

Will, what a day! And welcome back to Test cricket as well. How can you sum up what's happened today?

Yeah, obviously pretty well advanced now, I think. Obviously a little bit in it for the seamers. So I think both teams bowled pretty well, and I think for us tomorrow, the nature of a small total, we just got to try to eat away at that as much as we can tomorrow morning, then have another crack at them. So yeah, it's been an eventful day.

Has the buoyancy of all the wickets and bowling England out been a little bit tempered by then what's followed with the bat?

Yeah, I think it's only natural to, you know, when you lose a lot of early wickets to, you know, be a little bit shell-shocked and got the boys rushing around in the sheds. But it's the nature of Test cricket and they bowled very well, so on a pretty tough pitch to bat on. So, um, nah, yeah, that was an interesting one.

How much did you enjoy bowling on this pitch though? And again, choice of ends with the slope, how did that work? And in partnership when you're bowling with Kyle Jamieson as well?

Yeah, I was lucky enough to have the, I guess, friendlier end for running in. Downhill, downwind. So yeah, no, it's nice. It's a nice pitch to bowl on. I think there was a bit in it the whole way around. And then even when the dirt got a little bit softer, there was still enough in it. So no, I just tried to work the wicket hard and see what happened.

And how has the road back from injury been for you to get to this point and playing a Test match at Lord's?

Yeah, we had this one circled from a long way out. So Yeah, slow, tedious process as it always is when you're out with a back injury, but yeah, did all the right things and feeling good now, so it's good to be back.

You're actually from London, aren't you? Born in Surrey, Kingston?

Oh, I don't know if I claim. Two Kiwi parents, I claim I'm still Kiwi, but yeah, I was born in London, so nice to be sort of home, I guess.

Familiar territory in many ways. And what about the bowling of Carl Jamieson as well? Someone else who's come back from the injury trail a couple of years since his last Test match when he was superb.

Yeah, awesome. I think my first Test match was the one after he redid his back, so, um, obviously haven't played a Red Bull game together, but it was awesome to see the big fella out there and then get the rewards he deserved.

Best of luck the rest of the match. Anything else, anything could happen from here.

Cheers, thank you very much.

Well, it certainly feels like that. Willow Rourke with Alison Mitchell. Final thoughts, everyone? How would you— first day back for the, for the man, how would you sum it all up?

Michael, I'm chuckling because it's the Test cricket in modern times. We've seen lots of this, you know. We had two 2-day games in the Ashes, you know. Will we see another 2-day game? I don't think we will, but it's just the way that Test cricket's played these days. You get a pitch with a bit of nibble, things seem to happen and, you know, happen very quickly. I don't see it slowing down on day 2, Simon, so strap yourselves in.

Now the pitch will— it'll quicken up a little bit, if anything, tomorrow if the weather forecast is to be followed. Phillips becomes the important man for New Zealand. He hasn't got a 100 in Test cricket yet. About time he batted.

Yeah, big, big first hour, as we always say. I mean, they put on 30 of these two, doesn't take long for them to get parity. Phillips plays positively, uh, and then we'll see how England bat. Yeah, no rain tomorrow, could be a terrific day.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Well, earlier on today at Lord's, we were commemorating the captains that have led England out at the home of cricket as this Test is the 150th to be hosted here, and Phil Tufnell and Jonathan Agnew were outside the Pavilion catching up with some of them.

In front of us are lined up, uh, all the living England captains, bearing in mind it's the 150th Test match here at Lord's. So all of those still with us who have captained England in a Test match here are lined up in front of us. You'll hear a bit of noise going on in the background because Uh, they're being interviewed as we go, but I'm just looking at who we have in, in order, if you like. Uh, Mike Brearley talking to, uh, Ian Botham. We've got David Gower, Mike Gatting, uh, Graeme Gooch, Alex Stewart, Michael Atherton, Nasser Hussain. Michael Vaughan is giving us a wave. Marcus Roscothick— I was catching up on which game he was captain for, he'll tell us all about that. Uh, Andrew Draus, and of course Alistair Cooke as well. Now look who we have here, we've got Mike Brearley talking to Ian Botham. What a combination you are, Mike, it's lovely to see you. Thank you. You must have great memories of this place.

Well, I was fortunate enough to play for Middlesex all those years as well as 5 Test matches for England here. Yes, so wonderful.

Yes, what is it about Lord's in particular? Because you, yes, you do have that, that special connection. I mean, played here for a bit sex as well?

Well, first of all, it's a beautiful ground, and I think the development is very good, you know. Yeah, but also it is a tradition, you know. You know that you're coming to the home of cricket. You know you're coming to a place where everyone wants to play, and it's a great place to play.

Yeah, go on, Lord Botham, for your England tie on. Uh, I don't know, there are times the proper one, but when I, when I played with you and against to, uh, we always see them being slightly rebel, maybe. Is that a fair comment or not? I mean, what does Lord's do for you from that, from that perspective? Or perhaps I'm entirely wrong, perhaps you weren't rebellious in the least.

Look, whatever you're talking about there, as I'm not, I'm not sure, I guess. But, uh, what I will say is, I know, but look, when you come to this, this wonderful ground, the history of the ground, uh, the honors board, and that what makes it hard when you're playing against any other side from the overseas is the fact they all want to be on that board up there. So everybody gives everything they've got. They'll, they'll run through barriers to try and beat England here. But that's a great— it's a compliment to the country. Yeah. This stadium has got nostalgia written all over it. We were lucky enough to play on it and play on it many times. For me, It's the home of cricket.

Yeah. What was your— I mean, you started here, let's face it, as a young MCC young cricketer. I mean, years and years ago. What was it like then?

Uh, 11 guineas a week. Not very good.

No. What did you have to do? What did you have to do?

Well, we had to, uh, run around, bowl to members when they came over. We had a policy that the members come in and they think, well, that guy's not going to tip us anything, so we Soon get rid of him. A bit short and a bit quick, but, uh, but set off at 16 yards. But, uh, no, it's, uh, this is so special. I remember running around with the scorecards. Yeah, taking around to each department, every dressing room. Nancy on the way up there, pop in and have a quick bite. Well, that's if I hadn't eaten at all. But yeah, we all, uh, we had a— yeah, it is special. It is. And to see all these guys here, magnificent. All guys we played with and guys I had commentated on when they were playing. It's a real pleasure to be back.

Well, it's lovely to see you both. Thank you so much. Congratulations. Great to see you. Well, here's a familiar figure. Oh, thank you. My old skipper. Yeah. So come on then. What does Lord's mean to you? I remember a famous declaration here. That was Michael.

Hang on a second.

I've got to get in first, David, you know that. I've got to get in. I understand.

Yeah, I was— can I remind you that in— what year was that? 1984.

'84, yes.

I had to persuade the chairman, Peter May, that we shouldn't declare at the start of day 5 because it was still a good-looking pitch. Yeah. So when we gave the West Indies an hour before lunch and 2 more sessions to make 341, we were also a little bit taken aback when they made it with time to spare.

Yeah, 9 wickets, wasn't it?

Only 9 wickets. Well, we got in amongst them early. We ran Haynes out for about 7. That's right. We thought, we're in amongst them now. Uh, Grenadian, Grenadian goals. Yes. But no, that was— you have to admire some very fine batting.

Of course, of course. But Lords remains— did you enjoy batting here? Did you enjoy batting here?

I've got a couple of hundreds here, one against New Zealand, one against Australia. Unfortunately, the Australian one was in the midst of a terrible summer. It wasn't my finest hour overall, but it was a gritty, determined, battling, angry Hundred. I was also actually probably more famous in that game in 1989, not for the Hundred which came on the Monday, but for leaving the press conference on the Saturday night. Oh yes. Under severe questioning.

Yes, go to the theatre, was there?

Oh, absolutely. Look, it's rude to miss the start of the show.

Absolutely, you can't walk in late.

Absolutely.

Dave, it's lovely to see you. Always pleasure. Yeah, good man. And Mike Gatting alongside. What was it like, Gat? Because I mean, you, like Mike Brearley, were used to playing here, whereas for these down the line, coming to Lord's always felt really kind of special. Did it still feel special to you to play for England here because you played here so much?

Oh, it is, it's always special playing for England, Aggers, you know that. I mean, it's a— but there is just nowhere else like this. You know, Melbourne MCG, big ground, Calcutta, 100,000 when we were around in those days. But this again was just so different to all of them in many ways. And you sort of think that, you know, you turn up, you go into the dressing room, and they always seem to be trying to make things better here all the time. You know, one of the— wanted to be the best in the world. And it really is an absolutely fantastic place. Even when it's empty, you stride out there and you feel like it's special. I didn't actually get very many runs for England. I think my highest score was about 70-odd against New Zealand and that. But for Middlesex, I mean, it was just like, you know, turning up, having a net and walking back in and just being able to do that on a regular day-to-day basis. There's nothing better in this world.

It's wonderful. And when you walked into that dressing room, especially for Middlesex, this individual will be— well, he'll probably be later, I suspect. Was he the new turning up?

Well, he was because he was up with nets Nancy's getting the bacon butty and the egg, you know, she was getting breakfast for him every morning, you know, cup of tea. And they, they gave me some stick about it, but I promise you, if it wasn't for Nancy, I'm not sure he'd have made it through the day.

Was he, was he your, your greatest challenge, man-management-wise?

I have to say, he, he had his moments. And, uh, and to be honest with you, you do have mavericks in the game, and, and he's certainly one of them. We had Beefy And, you know, at the end of the day, it was hard work, but the fun we had as well sort of outweighed the hard work. And he tried his best. I do remember one day I said to him, I said, 'Kat, I'm going to have to sack you.' I said, 'But before I do, actually, I'm asking the team whether they want you to play or not.' And they said, 'No, we don't want you to sack Kat.' I said, 'Okay.' So I said to Kat, I said, 'Look, the team saved you.' They're, they're the pit. So I think you probably should try and, you know, try and just work with us a bit about, you know, because he would never— he said, well, why do I have to run 3 miles? Because I only walk up and bowl 6 paces. And it was all these— but it was nice having fun as well as having a talented cricketer.

Yeah, yeah. 20 years I played here for Middlesex.

You always talk very fondly of Mike.

Well, absolutely. Well, saved my life on many occasions. And it was absolutely the best office in the world. I've been listening to all the guys talking about what Lord's means and what have you. Never played under Gat at Lord's here for England, but it was an absolute joy to turn up, Gat, wasn't it? Wonderful people, people who looked after you, genuinely looked after you. Got a lot to thank Middlesex for.

Good man, Gat, lovely to see you.

Any wankers?

Catch up with you. We're going down, we're going next one down the line. Uh, Graham Gooch, I'm afraid I'm bringing Phil Tufnell with me.

You're a double act.

It's funny why people, right, when I bring Tuffers back, hide behind him. Cat, people like you sort of flinch as, oh no, it's Tuffers. But let's look, your, your innings here, I mean, that, that's got to be what everyone talks about, I guess, when, when you connect Lords and Graham Gooch. And a fabulous memory.

Well, I'm just talking to Alec because because his dad Mickey was the coach and manager at the time. And I do remember coming off after, I remember someone told me it was 628 minutes of batting. And when I got to the dressing room, Mickey, first word to me, he said, "Hmm, okay, not bad," he said, "but what are you doing getting out?" And I said, "I've run out of petrol, Mickey." Okay, and he said, "It's not good enough." He said, "You should have gone on and broken Gary's Gary Sobers' record of 365. And I said, sorry Mickey, I said, I wish you'd have sent a message out. So I've got to be the only one who scored a triple century at Lord's and got a telling off for it. But there we are, it's always great to be here. Wonderful ground for every player that comes here, every spectator, every cricket fan. You know, it's a fabulous atmosphere here, whether you're working as you do now, and I worked for you years ago as a commentator, or whether it's Standing out here on the slope brings back memories.

Yeah, there's something special about walking out here, isn't there? I mean, we kind of took it for granted when we played in a while. I didn't play here very much, Leicestershire and Middlesex and all that, but it still feels special even now to walk out here on this grass. It's ridiculous.

The, uh, the crowd are close to you. When I played my first Test match in 1975 here, second Test for me, but firstly there was people sitting on the grass in the corners. They had people on the grass. So you feel very close to all the support, if you see what I mean. You know, it's not a massive stadium, but easily it's the best cricket ground. And I say that instead of saying it's not a stadium, it's a cricket ground.

Of course it is.

And that's important. Quite right. So it's a delight to be speaking to you as a good friend and delight to be in this fantastic place.

Good to see you, Grant. Catch you later. Thank you very much indeed. Uh, who do we have here?

We've got—

I can't speak to Marcus Truscott again in a minute. Lovely to see you, Marcus, because I was racking my brains because you weren't a full-time England captain, were you? But you— but yet you did captain here. So go on, tell me, remind me.

Yeah, in 2004, as a stand-in, uh, captain for Michael, who's got injured during the preparation days. And then, um, obviously had the pleasure of doing it here. Yeah, um, as my sort of first Test match.

So did you have much notice, much warning?

A couple of days probably. Yeah, just to sort of prep and get back into it. We'd work closely together anyway in sort of captain, vice-captain sort of positions, but you know, you just sort of step in and do the job. And we won the game, which was brilliant. You know, that was really rewarding to be able to walk away in your first game here at Lord's and be a winner as well. It was really nice.

Yeah.

And did you enjoy batting here?

Uh, yeah, I did.

Yeah, it was quite, uh, different times, you know, compared to what they're like now. I would say they're always better batting pitches. Um, I always as a White Bull fan, seeing the White Bull get the White Ball here a little bit easier seeing the Red Bull. I don't know for what reason, but, um, you know, had quite some good, good success in the, in the White Ball games as well. So it's, you know, always good, always nice times to play here.

Yeah, there never used to be a sight screen here though. I'm talking back in the day.

That would have been a long time ago.

Well, not that long ago. Middlesex, Leicestershire, Wayne Daniel coming out of the, out of the Pavilion without a sight screen.

Very unpleasant, I'm no doubt.

I use it as an excuse. Lovely to see you. Yeah, good stuff. Thank you, Oshodi. Uh, what about Alex Stewart's rabbiting away? Can I— sorry, chaps. Well, actually, I'm relieving you.

Uh, I'm taking Alex away from—

how are you, Alex? Lovely to see you. Lovely to see you, Agus. Great to be here. Yeah. Now, what a— you know, what is— you're, you're a true, true patriot, England, England man. What was it like playing here for you? Uh, listen, even I played at the over-20-odd years, this is my favorite ground, the home of cricket, special atmosphere, and it's just lovely to be back. I'll be dragged for a photo. You are? Okay, we'll forgive you, Alec. Right, he's away for a photograph. Uh, was that lovely? I think we got a chat with most, uh, with most of them there. Uh, there's still a couple of— still maybe we don't have time to get, but, uh, uh, Alistair Cook there, Michael Vaughan. Well, you hear enough from them anyway. Uh, Mike Atherton, Nasser, but we got, we got a lot in there.

What a photobomb opportunity this is. I might just sneak around the back and just try and go and stand next to Gucci and Gap. There you go.

Do you think they would answer correctly? Which of these never captained England? I think they'll get it right. But it is— I mean, it's, it's, it's a lovely thing to do, and it's a very special event here. Uh, lovely to see Mike, really.

Yes.

You know, because he of course took over. I didn't like to bring it up with Ian. Yeah, because Ian in 1981 was captain here, came off to silence.

Yeah.

Yes, that's right.

And that's when they sacked him. Yes. And so they went up to Headingham, the next test, Mike Brearley reinstalled as captain, and that was course of the rest, as I say, was history.

So, well, a couple of sirs and a lord there.

Yeah, absolutely right. Um, I don't think what's happening quite with the covers and so on, but we've got a motor mop chugging up and down. If you're just joining us and a bit confused, the timings are all over the place today. Uh, we've had a lot, we've had rain showers and quite long interruptions. There's no news yet of a restart. Uh, Mike, Michael, I've seen you for ages.

Hi, um, do you know that guy that, um, like snuck onto the Manchester United team picture and went out to Batterley?

He's here, look, I was half expecting Jarv69 to turn up. 69 on the back, that's an ideal photograph for him to be in, isn't it? But go on, I've talked to the others. I know we talk to you all the time. Um, but you know, to, to, to be here, be part of that, it's very special.

Yeah, yeah, you kind of look along the group and you— yeah, yeah, I just had a great chat with Mike Brearley. Yes, you know, seeing Mike Gatting and Gucci, uh, Beefy, Gower, all looking remarkably fine considering they've been in the, the old, uh, the suite since 11 o'clock this morning.

I thought there were one or two slurs.

There we go. I thought that— yeah, it's special. I mean, but this place is a special place. I always You know, whether it's on a Test match day, whether it's in the winter when you're walking by and you walk through, we're all very, very lucky to say that, you know, we can work here, we've played here, and regularly we can kind of walk across this hallowed turf to an amazing crowd. The crowd here are always great. Everything around the place is class.

Restart 4:51. I mean, how they work that out precisely, I don't know, but restart in 4:51, so about 20 minutes. And that's a very encouraging sound, uh, of the, the hover mower, uh, chugging away. So which of those captains was captain when you were in your formative years, when you were sticking the telly on? I'm trying to sort of, you know, work out the, the years and so on. Who'd have been captain when you were—

Gower? Yeah, David Gower, um, uh, Gucci, right?

Yeah.

And then I would say Ath, Michael Atherton, was the one that when I was just coming through the the kind of ranks at Yorkshire. He was the England captain, and he was such a young England captain. He was obviously 23, I think he was, uh, played at university. And yeah, I always felt that I could look at Alan and go, yeah, I want— I can try to play like him at the start of my career. And then you won't mind me, so I tried to play a few more shots a little bit later, but he was the one that I looked at. But obviously Nasser was the one that I, um, took over from. Yes, um, yeah, a number of the I think Gucci captained in Australia. I remember 1991. Yeah, it was that tour that, you know, I was around 16, 17.

That's your first trip?

Yeah, yeah. I think it was around that time that I was, uh, really starting to get involved in cricket.

Yeah. So you played under— yeah, I played under a few of them.

I saw a few of them.

You'd have just missed Coward.

I know. Yes, I think I might have played under David in a Shield match in Australia, 1990. 91. Uh, didn't— Gat was my captain at Middlesex for 20-odd years. Uh, Strauss, he was a captain for me at Middlesex. Nasser, Gooch, Stewart, he did the lot. He did the whole lot there.

Just shows how regularly we sack them, isn't it?

Absolutely. But I think, I think one of it— I think one of the boys said it when they were interviewed there, it's— Lords is a real place that you feel the history of the game, you know, about the people who have walked down onto this hallowed turf. Mike, you said it earlier on, you really do get the feeling of that at Lord's.

Yeah, and you get it even when you first come. I remember the very first game of cricket I ever saw. I came here as an 11-year-old sitting in the grandstand, uh, watching the Gillette Cup final, 1971, age 11, watching Peter Lever running in from that nursery end. I said to my dad, that's who I want, I want to be Peter Lever.

Yeah.

And my dad said, yeah, right, you know. But that was sitting here. I think it sort of— it sets you off, isn't it, if you can come here?

Yeah, I think it's been the start of many boyhood dreams.

Absolutely. Yeah, Mike Gatting in the Tavern Stand down the bottom there gave me the Daily Telegraph, um, Young Batter of the Year when I was 15. Yeah, and I always remember I got a £1,000 kit bag to take back to my school in Sheffield. Duncan Fernley, Duncan Fernley Magda.

Tottenham.

Yeah, yeah, which I used a little bit after that.

That was £2 in those days.

Yeah, but it was, uh, yeah, a full kit bag of £1,000 worth for my school back in Sheffield.

Yeah, it's worth remembering also, I mean, Lord's is more than just a cricket ground. It was the headquarters of the ICC for, well, for years until it moved to Dubai. And the press conferences, I remember in the long room that was staged, or when South Africa were reintroduced to Test cricket, it all happened in there. When Colin Cowdery introduced match referees for the first time. Press conferences were always in the Long Room. So it's got that real— I mean, it still is. It was then the home of cricket, but it still is, isn't it? I mean, it's still the custodian of the laws, and people still look at Lord's. And I think it was, as Ian Botham was saying, visiting teams come here and they want to get on that board. They want to win at Lord's. It still does resonate all around the world. Place.

Yeah, no, they always seem to go up a notch, don't they, when they turn up. I can remember turning up here when I was about 16 or 17, my first contract with Middlesex. Uh, crikey, what was that, '85 or something like that? And, uh, you know, turned up and went, wow, you know, for someone who had just been playing a little bit of cricket. And you walk through those Grace Gates and you thought, this is, you know, this is something a little bit special, right in the heart of London, you You got the feeling that it was just the place to be.

Well, thanks to Agus and Tuffers for being down on the pitch for us, and thanks to you for listening. Test Match Special is back on air at 10 AM on Friday for highlights of the first day, and then a full buildup that begins at 10:30.

So much sport today, and all the goals as they go in up and down the league.

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