England's Men: The state of the nation

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England are beginning another reset. It's been a lot happening since they last played Test cricket. We know that Ben Stokes retired during that final Test against New Zealand at Trent Bridge. Brendan McCullum, a couple of weeks later, was sacked as Test coach, although he's staying on in the white ball role and he's still, or he has still been here in the country. Stephen Fleming is the new Test coach, but he's not here for this series against Pakistan. Marcus Trescothet remains as the interim coach, and Joe Root has taken on the captaincy again. So to reflect on all that, 2 former England captains in Alistair Cook and Michael Vaughan, and Jonathan Agnew. And Agus, I'll start with you. Are you happy with where we've landed after all the chaos of the summer so far, and even the winter, with where England find themselves now with Joe Root back as captain, with Steven Fleming as the new coach but not here and not starting until South Africa in the winter. What is the situation that England have now? What do you think?

Well, I mean, there's so many strands to this, aren't there? I mean, there really are. Are we happy with where English cricket is right now? No, we're not. I mean, it's, it's pretty shambolic, isn't it? There is a new coach, but he's not here, and we don't know why not. But I would have thought if you accept a job like England coach and there's a certain— there was a lot of urgency about it. And in fact, the ECB said When when they fired McCullum, they wanted the new person in before this series, didn't they? In time for this series. Well, that hasn't happened. I think they've got who they wanted, and I think Stephen Fleming will be a good will be a good man for this job. Bearing in mind the the chaos really of of well, you can go back a year, I think. I mean, the warning the warning signs were there for a while that this team England team was was. Out of control. I see Mike Atherton used the term out of control in his piece today in The Times. So certainly it wasn't in control, was it, on or off the field? And for me, the Oval Test match last year against India was a massive, a massive red light, the way they lost that game. Um, and I'm not saying that they didn't seem to care about it, but they didn't seem to care. It just— oh, you know, I remember interviewing Harry Brook after it, and, you know, you think, hang on a minute, you know, you should have won that series. And this is— we've got the Ashes coming up. It just seemed that That that there wasn't the discipline that you expect, and what the the public expect, the fans expect of an England cricket team. That it was unprofessional, and that that's an awful charge to level at a team. And and when I talk about this, always I always go back to the start of McCullum and Stokes, and how exciting, and what a breath of fresh air, and what a massive fillip it was. For a while, it was brilliant. And it's hard to imagine another combination having actually been able to achieve that from where they were. And interesting talking to Joe Root today, captain. I remember interviewing him at Grenada when it was all over for him and he was, he was just gazing vaguely. I mean, he was broken. He was absolutely broken. The team was broken. And yet very much the same players were lifted up by these two. And it was fantastic. The problem was, and I think to be fair, and I won't fall out with a few people listening now, But I think, I think most of us were flagging up issues quite early on in Bazball, and we got told to shut up because we're old and old-fashioned and, you know, behind the times, all the stuff that you get leveled on social media. Well, actually, you know, the signs were there. The signs of how it would probably end were there. And that's a shame because I really think that if those two particularly, particularly with Ben as captain, had actually been open to other suggestions and open to other thoughts and other, and other ways of playing. And you've heard again Joe Root talking about the ways that, that, that Test cricket is, you know, multi-level. There's, there's so much more to it than just playing in one way. We're not going to have it be labeled to play one way, is what he said, isn't it? And that's absolutely right. You have to be dynamic. You have to, you have to move. Have to be adaptable. But there was no question of that happening with, with, with that last regime. No thank you. If you don't like it, tough. And if you're not going to play like this, we don't want you. And that's not right. That's not, that's not the way you're going to succeed in Test cricket. So, and am I happy with, with the kind of the situation? Well, no. But given that we are where we are, I think that a Root-Fleming combination is the right one. Particularly Root's case, probably quite short term, but to get through some big series to come, because I think there'll be more maturity. And I think that they— I think it'll— hopefully England will adapt. They will. They don't accept— I mean, I think he made a point to me today, and he was absolutely right too. And again, music to the ears. There's nothing wrong in Test cricket with having to play defensively sometimes. It's part of the game. You soak up pressure. There was there was there was none of that before. It was just we we we're not playing for draws, you know, and Ben Duckett saying bring it on, we'll chase whatever they you know it's nonsense. It's look back at it. It's just cobblers. Go on, John. Well, but it but it is, isn't it?

Haven't taken a breath yet there, Agus.

Well, I haven't finished yet.

Got a right sweat on here, John.

I know it's but I think it matters and it means a lot, and and I just think that. It's a great shame the way it ended, but it was kind of always going to end up like that. It was going to be a shooting star, and it just ended, you know, kind of in in flames like one of Musk's rockets.

Right, thanks everyone for your time.

I actually, I was just picking up a point you said. I don't think they did get who they wanted. I think they wanted Flower.

Well, they're never going to get Flower.

Well, they might have done, but I think that's. I reckon they sacked McCollum, and the next day they rang Andy Flower. I reckon that's who they officially—

But he was never going to do it.

We don't know. So you say they ended up where they wanted? I don't think they did. I think they wanted Flower, and I think Flower couldn't carry on doing the IPL and his other jobs and do the England job properly. So he obviously ruled himself out. So I think if you ask Rob Keeley who was his first choice, I think it would have been Andy Flower.

Just on a couple of things, and I totally agree with you, John, by the way. I remember in 2023, the Test match at Lord's when England lost all those wickets to the bouncer theory. Nathan Lyon had been stretched off. And on the podcast at the end of the day's play, I think we all had a rant. I remember walking out of that venue and getting lambasted by a group of England fans. You're negative. You want England to lose. And I'm saying, no, I want England to win, but they're not going to win playing that style of cricket over a prolonged period of time. It's just impossible to play so high risk against the better sides and win. And I guess 2 or 3 years later, you kind of look at, in particular now, and again you used the word like common sense and maturity. If you look at the last week in Darwin, the way that Bangladesh arrived and played against Australia, and this is not a great Australian side, and this is why I'm still frustrated from the winter, because I watched that Test match last week and all right, Pat Cummins, I think he got it wrong at the toss. He decided to have a bat on the green top, probably thought we'll see off the first session and we'll be fine. Well, they get bowled out because Bangladesh just bowled 80-odd miles an hour, pitch up, Disciplined bowling. They then got the bat in hand and they batted for 138 overs by leaving the ball. The new Kookaburra ball, Hazelwood start, leave, leave, leave. You then earn the right to get that score because you've gone through a few tricky periods. So that was threat. They caught well, Bangladesh, better than Australia. And it was last week that I, I kind of watched, thought, oh, what an opportunity missed.

Absolutely.

For all these England players and for Baz McCullum and for Ben Stokes because Obviously, they're never going to get that opportunity again. And again, on common sense and maturity, I love the fact that England haven't named their side till the toss. Why would you name your side 2 or 3 days out? And in some cases, it was like, this is our team, you can have it, you can do what you want with it, you can, you can analyze to the depth of what we've given you. Why would you give the opposite opposition the chance to see your team before the Test match starts? You've got half an hour before, give them the team. So that was a little bit of maturity straight away from Joe Root. Um, got rid of the curfew, again maturity. You want, you want players to make mature decisions out in the middle where you pick players who you think are going to make mature decisions off it. And if they don't, guess what you do? Get rid of them.

So this is where we've got to. Let's go back to how we've got here. And we spoke a lot about Ben Stokes's retirement at the time, and then we kind of knew after Trent Bridge that something was going to change. And maybe the spotlight was on Rob Key, but it ultimately fell on Brendan McCullum, and he lost the the job as Test coach, and now he's the white ball coach only. The question is, did that decision come too late? Should it have been made in the spring? Why did Brendan McCullum only go after a Test series defeat against New Zealand? Because if that was the starting point that he has to go because England have lost against New Zealand, well, that was always going to be unsustainable, wasn't it? That you couldn't just go series to series of this guy survives if we win or this guy goes if we lose.

I honestly think, Steph, it was as simple as that 4th afternoon at Trent Bridge. You know, I think if you're on the board at the ECB and you're seeing England go 1-0 up in the series at Lord's— the pitch wasn't great, but they win the Test match 1-0 up— and then you go to obviously the Oval on the back of what happened, 5 changes, Ben Stokes and Chris Atkinson out the side, I'm sure if you're a board member of the ECB there's a few flashing lights about the curfew situation, there has to be. And then you see the way that the England team play on the back of New Zealand. What— we're down to there, Zak Fox is about the 8th choice seamer.

Yes.

You know, bowling 80-odd miles an hour with the keeper stood up, and then they went out and played in that fashion on the 4th afternoon. You're not doing your job correctly if you're on the board of an organization if those flashing lights don't hit you hard enough to go, we need change. So I think it was that 4th afternoon against New Zealand at Trent Bridge was was the final nail. What we have to look at now is, are they in a better position now to what they were then? I think they've got a fantastic leader. I think they've got a tremendous guy in Stephen Fleming who will bring a great deal of sense, a great deal of maturity. I've seen that already in this selection where, you know, Ollie Pope's come back in. He's played 65 games for England. You know, we don't want to put Ollie Pope in the scrap heap, you know, but do we want to see Ollie Pope bat at number 3? Probably not. But at 5, 6, or 7, I'd like to see Ollie Pope get a chance again for England. So that's a sensible selection. Going to someone like Dan Lawrence, who's got 5 centuries this summer, he's in form. We need someone who can bowl a bit of offspin or a little bit of part-time spin because, you know, that's the downfall of Ben Stokes not being to the side. Will be Shoaib Bashir. You know, to have an out-and-out spinner in a side that doesn't have an all-rounder is going to be very, very tricky for someone like Bashir. So again, a sensible decision. You know, Ollie Robinson, Sam Cooke, similar kind of bowlers. Ollie Robinson was going to become a father again this week, so they needed a backup for him. The baby came early, so he's been able to play. But Sam Cooke, I'm sure, would have played, you know, that style of bowler. I think what we'll see in Steven Fleming over the course of the next few— the talk of airspeed, and England have gone all out, you know, in this pace, pace. You know, some of the best teams in the world have a couple that just bowl around 80 miles an hour and then wobble it, and, and they've got real skill. We've seen that already today in Ollie Robinson. We saw it for many years with Jimmy and Stuart Broad. So I think if you look back to when Stephen Fleming was the captain of the New Zealand side, he had Shane Bond when he was fit, but other than that, he had kind of little dobbers, you know, Chris Harris bowling dear house where the keeper stood up with clever fields. And I think we'll see a lot more of that. So I think we'll see a smarter cricket team, but it's how you work without a world-class spinner and how you work without a world-class all-rounder. That's going to be the key. I like the fact they said that Sam Curran would have been in Contention. He's not had the workload of recent times. They're a bit worried about his body, so they've identified a seam bowling all-rounder that they could use who brings, you know, a good batter in different positions. He also brings the skill of swing when it's swinging. He brings the skill of the keeper stood up with a bit of wobble at times as well. So I've heard and seen a few things over the last couple of weeks. I've gone, okay, there's a bit of sense coming back into the England Test match team.

And Michael, you've been chatting to Brendan McCullum during the Hundred final, reflecting on his time as England coach.

I had a great time. I had 4 years of trying to achieve something alongside Stokesy, and, you know, we had some really cool moments and we achieved some really cool things. And, you know, ultimately all good things come to an end, and I'm very much at peace with it and content, and I believe it was the right decision. And I'm grateful for the opportunity I had rather than anything else. You know, I know that Flem will do an amazing job. Stephen Fleming in the role as England Test coach and excited for Joe Root as well. And now it's a fresh opportunity for those guys.

Is there anything that you would have done differently now you look back on it?

Oh, look, I think there's always things you do differently, right? There's opportunities that you make decisions, you make plays. The thing, just because you would do them differently doesn't mean you regret them. I think you make decisions in the moment that you think are going to be right and you think are going to work. Not everyone is going to work out like that, but you live with that and you're at peace with it. And, you know, in the end, I think we were able to take over a team when we did and kind of go on a bit of a journey. And I think we won 27 Test matches or something during that time. Yeah, we lost a few along the way as well, and ultimately we weren't able to get to the level that we wanted and winning those big series against India and Australia in the Ashes. But yeah, as I say, I'm grateful for the opportunity.

Yeah, you mentioned those big series against India and obviously the Ashes. Um, what is it you're going to pass on to Stephen Fleming, your good mate who's now the Test match coach, so England next time they play the Ashes next year or in 4 years' time down under, they're going to be better suited to make sure those Ashes stay here in the UK?

Well, if we knew that, we'd probably still be in the job. Um, I think from the thing, like, Flem's brilliant. Stephen Fleming is one of my best mates. He's an incredible thinker of the game. Um, He's a real leader of men as well. Um, I've sort of— when people have asked me about kind of how— what will Flem be like, I say he'll be like me, but he'll be better. And, and when I— what I mean by that is I think he'll— there's, there's a lot of good with English cricket at the moment. There's a lot of good in that Test side at the moment. If you look at the fast bowlers in particular, development emergence, I think is an exciting phase for, for Steven Fleming and Joe Root to be able to take the side forward. I think there's some young talented players batters that you can surround the likes of Harry Brook and Joe Root with to be able to move the side forward. Ultimately, they'll do it their way, and quite rightly, but I think the opportunity is enormous.

I know you're a betting man. What odds would you give me now on Ben Stokes playing in next year's Ashes?

Probably the same as you being coach of it.

So zero, no odds?

Oh, look, Stokesy, he's a good mate of mine. I know he's a good mate of yours as well. And Stokesy's very at peace with the decision he made. And I think, you know, you never say never in anything in life, but when I spoke to him, he was very content that he'd had an incredible career, one that he was really proud of, and he was happy the way he bowed out. So you never say never in anything in life, but for now, I would say that the odds are probably against it.

That's Brendon McCullum talking to Michael Vaughan during The Hundred. Like me but better, Brendon McCullum said about Steven Fleming. One thing that I thought, Alistair, about the appointment that England had to make about a Test coach was someone who could work with Brendan McCullum. And you would have played for England at a time when there were split coaches, and England have tried it a couple of times and it hasn't always worked. So how important is that relationship between Fleming and McCullum?

What I said at the time, as soon as they announced that McCullum was the one-day coach, actually that is the hardest thing. that the person must be a strong enough personality to be able to handle McCullum. Because what happens with the split coaches, one side, the Test side or the Red Bull side or the White Bull side, one of them does better than the other. So therefore, the side likes playing for the more— the players like playing for the more successful side, therefore likes that coach a little bit more. It happened with Mott and McCullum. Even though Mott won the T20 World Cup, actually the Test side started at the start of McCullum and Stokes' era started this momentum and everyone loved playing under Baz and it put Moss under pressure. So that relationship was key. So you can understand why Rob Kee made Fleming coach because that professional and the personal relationship was already there as Fleming and McCullum already played together but also in business together as well, which is I think a really important thing when you're not just friends but in a business together where you actually have to make some really tough decisions, I assume, on certain things. So that relationship there. So I can see why Fleming and McCullum should work. I think, as always, it's going to be very, very hard to manage perfectly because there's too many— it's such a hard thing to get right. There's the T20 World Cup or the World Cup coming up, and then you've got the Ashes. Who's going to get the final say? And where Rob Keeley, who has been quite scattergun, I think, in his approach, has to really He's the one who has to really tighten up and get this thing really straight and really organized because you have to be so organized to make sure that that both coaches are happy and there is a there is a path forward. And I think that's the one thing I think you could say about the McCullum and Stokes era: there didn't seem to be much future planning at all. They went from the Silverwood COVID era where it was a nightmare, impossible to get right, and where they tried to take players in and out and try to plan to we're just going to plan for next week and. It's almost costly. You go back to that, not after the Ashes, we're talking about the review. There was this review and then a week later, everything's— a month later, everything's changed. There has to be some really good, clear, decisive future planning for this to work really well.

I mean, it's a harder era now than it ever has been to manage players. And the reason with that is there's so many other leagues that these players play in as well. So you look at the Jofra Archer situation in the IPL this year, that'll happen again, I would think, next year. Next year we've got an Ashes series, a World Cup after.

That's the interesting thing.

Baz McCullum will want his white ball players to be playing in the games leading into the World Cup. Stephen Fleming, you look at what England have to, you know, 3 Test matches here, 3 Test matches in South Africa, 2 Test matches in Bangladesh, 1 Test match against Bangladesh next summer, then 5 against Australia.

So it'd be a bit easier then because the Ashes happens and then England just go into a long period of white ball cricket.

They do, but again it's managing your players and your workload. Then they go into the Hundred straight after the Ashes. The Ashes finishes on August 2nd next year. It starts on August the third, the hundred. So it's not just managing the players, and I can hear the fans out there going, yeah, but is it purely about England? This is a different era of cricket that players will go and play some of the franchise leagues around the world. They earn a huge amount of money doing so, and you have to manage them as well as you possibly can. But fundamentally, I would be staggered if the players aren't kind of getting together and go, look, we've got a great opportunity here. This Australian side next summer. Is an aging team. They're probably going to make 2 or 3 changes by then, but you know, you're going to be up against an Australian side that hasn't won here since 2001, an Australian side that we know has just lost to Bangladesh. They're an attack that could come here with bowlers in their late 30s to run in and bowl in, in 5 matches in, in the space of, what, 7 weeks? A batting unit that we know is vulnerable. I'd be staggered if the players aren't getting in a room going, come on. Let's just get together and really focus on England's Test match team and the 50-over team over the course of that. And if one or two of you have to miss a series or a franchise league here and there, just to make sure you're ripe for that Ashes series and you're ripe for that World Cup in South Africa. England's style of play will suit South Africa. They play an expansive game. Those pitches will come on. They've got a load of pace in their attack. So when you think about when Basma Cullum took the one-day job, At the start, after Matthew Mark, they went to a Champions Trophy and went all-out attack in subcontinent conditions. Got selection completely wrong. That attack or that style of approach will probably be right for South Africa, and I think that's the style of cricket England play. So I'd be amazed if the players and Joe Root, Harry Brook, the captain, quietly just over dinner at night saying to Joff, "Right, come on, Joff. Just buy into English cricket completely for the next year because." You want to be on that podium, you know, in a year's time. You want to be on August the second on the podium with the ashes in your hand, and you want to be in the latter stages of that World Cup in South Africa. You know, people don't remember franchise winners. They may do in time, but at the minute, we we know the Super Chats won the men on on Sunday. We know the Rockets won the women's tournament. But over time, you really have to gather your thoughts to remember your. you're winners in the franchise league. But for an England cricketer to win an Ashes and win the World Cup, you get remembered forever. And this group of players, on what they're going to play against, have got an incredible chance of doing something very, very special in 2027.

What, what about that balance though, Aggers, between McCullum and Fleming and that relationship? Because it strikes me that over a long period of time, England have struggled to balance red-ball cricket and white-ball cricket and be successful in both simultaneously.

But you have made the point that the Ashes are done by the start of August, and there is a long time. I mean, the World Cup isn't what, till October, November?

That's right.

So, you know, they are going to be very much in white-ball mode, and Brendan McCullum can have his players. So I think it'll work well. I do think, by the way, I think McCullum will be a really good white-ball coach because that's his style of cricket. You know, that's how he used to play himself. He's called a one-dimensional cricketer of his own kind, but that's the way that he plays. And so he's much better suited to that than I think he is to Test cricket, because again, that was a one-dimensional approach that he introduced to Test cricket. And I don't— well, it doesn't work. It doesn't work. It might take a few by surprise early, but as we see, the good teams work you out. And so I'm excited about Steven Fleming. I mean, I've watched him play a lot earlier on doing this job. It reminds me of Cookie in a lot of ways. I mean, he was a You know, a traditional, hardworking, left-handed opening batsman. Nothing flash. He knew what he had to do and he worked hard. Um, you know, all the old qualities, if you like, of, of a Test match opening batsman. But he's brought with that now his experience of franchise coaching too. So that, that sort of modern pace, if you like. And I do hope that they— that that is one part of what we've had recently that is retained, that they are still positive. It is, but you just do it at the right times and you, and you, and you do retreat at times. That's That's that's that's what's needed. So that that's why I think Fleming and and Root together will do a good job because Root has talked a lot about that positive stuff and wanted to retain that. That's great, but it just has to it has to have a check and a balance, and that that didn't happen over the last couple of years.

He must. I mean, he's he's coached or been the head coach, the leader of the Chennai Super Kings for 17 years, and to do that in India and to manage players to manage all different players around the world. select the right kind of players in the auction. And more importantly, you're not only managing down in India, which is all your players and all your staff, you're managing up.

Yep.

You know, so you're managing all the owners and the expectations. You know, the one thing that he had in India that's, you know, this is why I'm really intrigued by the relationship with Joe Root, because he's had MS Dhoni.

Yeah.

Who arguably is probably the greatest ever white-ball captain. And he's basically had a captain that he knew that as soon as they went onto the field, he just left it to MS Dhoni and he just stood up sits in the dugout and just watches. But what he does behind the scenes in making sure everything's organized, everything's right, very, very consistent in selection. And that's all I can judge him on as a, as a coach. Throughout his years at Chennai, they've been renowned of basically the 11 that they start the tournament with. You'd be staggered if they changed the team after 6 or 7 games, even if they lost 2 or 3. He's very, very consistent with the players that he picks. So if you get in that team and You know, I guess this you could argue is Steven Fleming's first team because he's been involved in selection. I think from what we see here, this would be what we see going forward. You know, I think Shoaib Bashir will only come in, or a spinner will only come in, on a really hot week.

If they can find— if Curran comes in, maybe.

Maybe Curran, maybe Curran would come in about at 7 and Jamie Smith goes back to number 6. But I think this, this week here in the UK, and that's really important, that England have got to find a way of being Back to their consistent best in the UK. We've lost too many Test matches, you know, 2 against New Zealand, 2 against India last summer, the Sri Lankan loss at the Oval. What year was that? That was a couple of years ago. You know, this team has lost too many games in their own backyard, and to be a really good team, you— I'm not saying you have to dominate all the time at home, but you have to know exactly what you're doing at home and make it very, very difficult for the opposing sides to come and win here.

Harry Brook's the man for me. Um, I want to see how he flourishes in, in this sort of environment because I don't think the last ones did him any good, frankly. Um, he's got so much talent. Um, he should be scoring thousands of runs, but we've all seen headless ways in which he's got out, which is just a total waste. And you just feel— well, you don't know what happens when he gets out in that circumstance. Um, but you feel that maybe he wasn't necessarily pointed in the right direction.

You—

it's sort of a lack of responsibility, really, that, that, that someone like him, if, if he, if he, if he played at 80% of that level of positivity, if that's the right word for it— I mean, it's reckless at times, but 80% of it— he'd score millions of runs. Millions of runs. He's got so much to, so much to give. But I just think he was allowed to go off on a bit of a—

Well, this is Harry Brook, 38 games, 3,395 runs, an average of 53.4, yet we're still— and 10 hundreds.

Number 1 Test batter in the world.

And we're still kind of pointing fingers. Understandably though.

We know what he can do.

Go on, Cookie.

No, no, I disagree with what Aga's saying actually. I think the environment really helped him to start with because I actually didn't think Harry Brook— I saw him play some Red Bull cricket for Yorkshire against Essex at my latter stages, and I don't think he knew how to play the Red Bull game. I think he started as an opener and he didn't know whether to stick or twist. He didn't know whether to defend or attack. And McCullum and Stokes came in and said, I want you to go out and attack, right? So that freed him up and gave him a real clarity how he want— how to play, and he allowed him to produce stats like that. What, what I, I think the system that didn't allow him to do was then like evolve a little bit more. So I think Agus is then right to actually— so now he's got that incredible— those numbers are incredible. And, and I think what we're going to say about him, they actually could even be better. But I think the start has allowed him to go, right, I'm going to attack. He's kind of got that. And now I think he is maturing as a person. He's, he's done a really good job with that White Bull team that last 6 months. And I think we will see now a much more maturing of him batting. Yes, he will get out in silly ways because that is just how he plays. But he will— I think Angus is right, we want to see Harry Brook at 80%, which could be more consistent than he has been. But I disagree with the fact— I do think that start really helped Harry Brook.

Harry Brook is a generational player, you know, and I think we'll all agree that Joe Root is our greatest ever, again, in my opinion. But I said it the other day. I feel that Harry Brook could be our greatest player to watch because he plays innings, and he's already played innings in his short kind of international career that you go, "Wow!" I mean, his hundred against India on the chase at the over last year was spectacular. And then guess what he does? And the one thing I'd say to Harry Brook is just make sure that you realize how good you are, how important you are for England to win. And he should be thinking now, you know. Great, great sportspeople. They're not just individually brilliant, they generally end up on the podium with their team with trophies. And so far in his career, he's, he's had some good moments, great moments, but he hasn't had that podium moment. And I think for England to win an Ashes series, for England to win a World Cup, he's that good. There's not many batters I don't think can pretty much win a Test match on their own. I reckon Harry Brook's in that group.

Yeah, his next involvement is becoming man of the series. You know, in big series and also consistently. Like, he is that good. He— that I reckon, and I do think he will, yeah, that age now, 27, 28, he'll start to win Man of the Series. And actually, do you remember that series? Brook got 600 runs in that series. And I think that's just dominate. That's it. Rather than just like that 300. And he's still number 1 in the world, but I think that's his evolution of becoming—

I want to see him also shaking hands of the opposition at the end, not out. I'm going old school, you know, just be that player that shakes the hands of the opposition because you're 70 not out, you're 120 not out. Against India last year at the Oval, if they got 140 not out, they win the game.

Well, Brook, since he made his Test debut in September 2022, has more international runs across formats than any player in the world. At the end of the Ashes, Ben Stokes took him to one side to say, look, your Test average is in excess of 50, which is obviously brilliant. and it almost sounds daft saying this, but it could be better. It could be 65 or 70. And I spoke to Harry Brook, um, last week and he said, well, yeah, it's not that simple just averaging 65 or 70. Of course it isn't. But the point that Stokes was trying to make was not many people can do what you can do. Are you necessarily making— yes, what you can do is great, what you've done is great. Can it be even better? And he's not got an Ashes hundred. He's played 10 Ashes.

You did a really good interview with him in the week, and I liked him talking.

And he looked so surprised, Cookie.

Yeah, but he talked about winning moments, you know, and that's all I would say to Harry Brook is, you know, numbers are irrelevant to me because all I want you to be, Harry, is that player that, as Alistair just mentioned, that we're talking about at the end of the series because you've won England so many moments that we've won the series. You know, if he has a series against Australia, he has a series away in South Africa that we know he can— if he goes to South Africa, gets 2 big hundreds, England win the series. at the end of it, we're talking about Harry Brook being on the podium as an England player that's won a big, big series. And that's what he has to get into his head, is that— I don't want to take away his flamboyancy, you know, I don't want to see him bat like he did at Trent Bridge, by the way, again, because he's wasted by playing that kind of way. But I wouldn't want to lose that flamboyance and that attacking nature. But in the back of his mind, I think it's very important for him to realize how important he is for the team to win big series and big moments.

You mentioned how important Harry Brook is, Aggers, but I guess then it's the partnership, isn't it, between Brook and Root, and whether or not Root can bring the best out of Brook. And with you 3 sitting here, I can't think of 3 men who will know Joe Root better. Former teammate with you, Cookie. Vorny, you've known him since he was no age. And Aggers, probably you've interviewed him more than, than anyone else. So I guess the question is, I mean, Starting with you, Jonathan, were you surprised when he wanted the captaincy back on a full-time basis?

Um, it's an interesting answer. I mean, I think it's a short-term thing, isn't it? I think you're looking for a year with Joe Root to get through to the Ashes. Am I surprised? No, not really, because he's just that sort of a bloke. You know, the team's in a crisis. And so who, who do you turn to? You turn to Joe Root, and Joe Root almost is almost certain to say yes, um, because he's quite old school from that perspective, you know, a traditional cricket lover from a very traditional cricket family. To be captain of England, I mean, I was surprised because I saw what the captaincy did to him, um, and there were lots of reasons for that. And, you know, particularly that COVID tour of Australia, which was utterly, utterly miserable. I mean, he might have gone after that rather than go to the West Indies where the whole thing did just finally collapse in a heap. And of course, there was no Broad and Anderson. It was all a strange tour, that one. But I'm— so I'm not surprised that having been asked that he said, yeah, I'll do it. I'm pleased they asked him to do it rather than Brook because I just— for the reasons I've just mentioned, I think this is a really big opportunity for Brook just to nail down and then knuckle down and, and, and get this focus on his game for a while. Will it affect Root's batting? I wouldn't have thought so. I think he's just, he's just too good a player for that and too good, too experienced a player. Is he motivated by beating Australia? Absolutely, because that is what defines you as a captain, is it not, to be an Ashes-winning captain? And he's not. Um, and so that is, that, that I suspect is, is a spur. And I think he fancies the challenge. I think he fancies the challenge of picking it up From from where England are at the moment, with a youngish team, with with a bit of a crisis going on, and and leading them out of it. I think he he he would feel the responsibility of a senior that a senior player feels for for the for the good of the team. And so no, it doesn't surprise me that he's taken it.

When you and I were sitting in the bar last night, we were trying to think of an England captain that effectively gone out on their own terms. And what I mean by that is gone out on a on a high.

Yes.

And won the Ashes goodbye.

And we were struggling to think of one. probably went back to Brearley in '81. Is that about— is that what we think about that? And we're also trying to think of captains that have had 2 goes at it, and David Gower was the last one that we could really think of.

That ended badly.

And I came back to something that I think you said, Cookie, um, at Trent Bridge, of when you are England captain, no matter how bad it's gone for you, it is an incredibly difficult thing to give up. The job that you have Wanted to do, or maybe dreamed of, to come to the realization to yourself that for me it is no more, and you've got to hand that job back. So then, for two guys here who've been England captain, if you'd played long enough for it to come round again, and you felt in the right space to do it, and the team was right, and all the circumstances were right, would you have done it again?

It's a really good question.

It must be a lovely feeling to know that. you could have another go at it? For you, you look like I've got 3 heads.

No, absolutely.

It's a good question. I remember, Mike, you left in tears at your press conference.

Would you have had another go?

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Look, you're tired and you're drained, and my body was in bits. My knee, uh, was a real problem. But, oh, 6 months later, yeah, having had a bit of time away, been— I went skiing for the first time, actually.

With your knees? With your knees.

That was a Sensible move, wasn't it? With a dodgy knee or two. Yeah, absolutely. 2009, I remember getting a call from Strauss actually at the start of the season when I was trying to come back, and he said, oh, get a few runs and we'll look to get you in for the Ashes. And in the back of my mind, I was like, yeah, I'd love to play, but I'd love to captain. That was my thought. But obviously that was never going to happen. I never got enough runs to even put myself in the, in the game, and that's why I retired. But yeah, I mean, I'd love to captain now. I wouldn't want to stand in the field that much.

Or do it Ryder Cup style, do like Luke Donald does.

Well, I looked at Joe this morning, and what we have— we only had, what, 6, 8, 9 overs, whatever we've had. 23 for 2, Pakistan. Joe didn't have to field a ball, moved himself to kind of gully a couple of times. I thought, well, I'd love to do that. Just stand there and kind of maneuver the field. You've got a ball that's doing a little bit against the Pakistan batting lineups, a bit vulnerable. The challenge will come this series. I think it's going to be absolutely fine. Home conditions, Pakistan particularly with the bat in hand, are very vulnerable. South Africa away will be a challenge. Bangladesh away will be a challenge. Those 2 Test matches. And by the time next summer comes around, Joe's just got to make sure that he Even though he's so experienced, you know, he's gonna have to utilize that, that time off to make sure that he arrives next summer completely refreshed. Um, he'll play some white ball cricket, 50-over cricket till then as well. But when Joe Root is fresh and he's, he's really optimistic about everything, he's going to be absolutely fine. What you wouldn't want is South Africa to go wrong, Bangladesh to go wrong, and then next summer, um, you know, we don't get off to a great start. And that's That's always the challenge. You always look at captains when it's a good day and it's easy, isn't it? You know, when you're interviewing a captain that's won, it's easy. Oh, look, it's when you interview a captain when it's not gone so well.

Well, I just say, look at him at the Oval after day 1. Everyone said how well he managed the bowlers, new bowling attack, and he walks off, you know, spring in his step. An hour and a half after on day 2, he weren't looking the same bloke.

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Would you do it again, Cookie?

No.

I don't think—

would you not?

No, I, I— the, the The bit about it, you are a better leader at the end of it because of all the experience.

Why wouldn't you want to do it again?

Because I, I tell you, I went back to Essex after I finished playing for, you know, for England, and just the idea of then just playing and not have to worry about all the other stuff, I, I just, I, I honestly, I, when you, when no one's never thought about it, if it was an absolute crisis, which I suppose this is a crisis, and they say, look, you're the only person we can turn to, then it's a different thing. But the thought of actually definitely wanting to do it again, no, I didn't. And I loved going back to Essex. And, you know, there was never a chat of ever me being captain, but there's never me going, actually, I want to go and captain this side and try and win a county championship. I was like, I was quite happy being the soldier, getting told what to do, offering my opinion when it was necessary, and then not having to worry about it.

So no.

Like working for TMS. Let's hear from the man himself. I asked Joe Root yesterday About why he decided to return as Test captain.

Now, having spoken with Steven and his vision and how he sees building the team, we were very aligned and I was very excited to, to do it again. When you're looking at different teams and different personnel, of course you're going to approach things differently, and, you know, hopefully that comes across in the way we play in the, you know, in the immediate future. And, you know, we can grow that and develop that and evolve that over the next little while as well.

Does a Test Does a cricket team have to have a brand, a style of play?

No, I don't, I don't think so. I think that of course there's things that you want to replicate over and over again, but I don't think Test cricket is one pace. You know, you have to be able to move with the rhythm of the game and to understand the different situations that you find yourselves in, the different conditions. Even at the same pitch, at the same venue, can be very different throughout 5 days. And being skillful enough, smart enough to recognise those moments and understand what's required.

Are you aware that over the last little while when results haven't been great and certain things have happened off the field, that maybe the standing of this team with supporters in the eyes of the public isn't what it was a couple of years ago? Have you got work to do to build a few bridges?

I think you always want to represent your country in the best possible light. And we might have fallen short of that on a few occasions in the recent past, but the only thing that we can do to rectify that is be really good role models and good human beings and put in some really strong performances out on the field. And that does take time, and that first opportunity to do that is this week. So I think it's trying to take that and understand what that looks like and really throwing ourselves into to each situation and scenario we find ourselves over the next 5 days.

Is one of the challenges of taking over from a retired Ben Stokes not captaining a team with Ben Stokes in it?

No, I think one of the big challenges is just not trying to be Ben Stokes, and he's a very unique player with unbelievable qualities that I don't think are easy to replicate, so I don't think there's any point trying to. I think understanding that Things have changed. We are—it's going to have a slightly different look to it, but that's okay. There's still a lot of good stuff that's happened over the last four years that I think will serve us really well, and it's about not ripping it up, just fine-tuning and evolving that and and taking that to the next level. So yeah, I mean, I think he did a phenomenal job throughout his tenure, and you know, will go down as a brilliant test player, brilliant test. captain, and we've got to find a way of evolving the team without him in it.

One of the things I've heard you talk about in terms of batting and the runs you've scored and the milestones that you've achieved is they're never really your runs, they're the team's runs. And if I said to you, was your motivation for taking this captaincy to become an Ashes-winning captain or a World Test Championship-winning captain, you would say no, it's about the team and those sorts of things. So is that what it is? to take this group of players and shape them and leave them in a better place than what you found them, rather than anything you can achieve personally.

Yeah, and try and bring the best out of each other throughout that as well. And, you know, I don't— you look at our bowling attack, for example, I don't think they even realize how good they are and how skillful they are and, you know, what they could potentially produce over the next little while and the depth that is there in that department as well. So I think it's about trying to move this team forward and Clearly, if we're getting the best out of those players with the amount of skill that they have, we're going to produce results and we're going to play some really good strong cricket.

That's the new, old, new again England Test captain. One thing I want to pick out from what he said in that interview then, because we haven't really touched on what's gone on around the England team and the stuff that's happened off the field— good role models and good human beings. wants his team to be. Was that something that was in your mind when you were playing for England, Alistair?

Yeah, we absolutely— we had a team charter of how we wanted to play. I think we have to accept that over the last couple of years that they haven't got that off-field stuff totally right. But I will say there's always going to be mistakes because there's too many people in there not to be a mistake. Everyone's young, everyone's, you know, you know, there's 22-year-olds, 26-year-olds, 28, living the time of their life. It's not going to be absolutely perfect, but there's got to be less mistakes. And that one, that's just a covering, a starting cover. There'll be a story at some stage. There always is with every cycle. So I just hope there's less of them.

What do you think when you hear that, Michael?

Yeah, I mean, it's just sensible. I mean, why wouldn't you want good people in your dressing room making good decisions, being mature? Not the England side for 2 or 3 years. You could argue they've got away with a lot. Got away with a lot of the stuff that they've got to. They haven't performed what I would describe in a high-performance way in terms of the way that they've prepared for the big moments. You know, the preparation for the Australian tour was pretty much non-existent, and that, you know, when you start kind of producing preparation like that as a management group, Almost like subconsciously as a player, you kind of think, well, this is quite a relaxed environment. I know they're still playing lots of golf, and I have no problem with that at all. It's just that over the course of the first 2 or 3 years, it was almost all we talked about was golf. You know, there's things that you have to keep private in your, in your team group, and I'm sure they all played golf yesterday afternoon, but do we know about it? No. You know, it's absolutely fine with me. And, you know, fundamentally, The big moments in your careers and in the big moments as a coach, as a captain, you have to prepare your players for absolutely every eventuality. And I just don't think that's happened over the course of the last 2 or 3 years. And I think we will get that now. I think we will see a more disciplined, more sense. I think we'll see a more mature team. And if you're more mature off the field, I said earlier, you're probably more likely to make more mature decisions on the field. It comes hand in hand. And Look, there's going to be challenges for the side because they've lost a world-class all-rounder and they haven't got a world-class spinner. So let's not think that just because they've made this change and Joe's the captain and Steven Fleming's together, they're going to make more sensible decisions. I think Marcus North comes across really well as the selector. I love the way that he interviews. He just talks a real sense about the game. But it doesn't mean they're going to win every game. It doesn't mean that there won't be challenges in South Africa and next year and then India away. We know there's going to be challenges ahead, but the more that you can create an environment which is high performance— I still think this team can be better coached. Stephen Fleming, from what I've seen from the IPL, is more of a leader, more of a man-manager. I think he gets people around him to do the coaching, and I still think this Test match team, you know, the keeper stood up tactic— who's going to coach the players on how to overcome that tactic? It's exposed this England batting line, but it's exposed our 2 best players in Harry Brook and Joe Root. So who's going to coach the players into making sure that they overcome that? I'm interested with this backroom team how it will look for South Africa, because I think it will be different to what we have here today. But for the first time, for the first 2 years, Agus mentioned, and he was right, we loved Bazball. It brought us great moments, great active kind of commentary that we all adored. But, you know, for the last 2 years we've all watched and thought, oh no, we haven't felt there's been a safe pair of hands behind the England Test match team. I feel now, for the first time in 2 years really, that I'm looking down and going, Joe Root, Stephen Fleming, you could argue, are the 2 safest pair of hands that can take this England team forward.

I guess on that idea of what might have been going on off the the pitch. And obviously you've been close to England teams for a very long time. Is the point that the supporters don't actually care as long as England are winning, and they haven't been winning enough?

Well, yeah, that's an interesting point. I mean, I, I think supporters do care. Um, you know, we were all in Australia—

Or more forgiving of things that happened off the field if you're winning?

I suppose so. I mean, look, it's interesting Stokes touched on this, didn't he, um, a couple of weeks ago on a podcast about a drinking culture with cricket and you look at, you know, some of the high-profile characters that have been down the years, you know, I think, you know, long tours and so on, I think that they're probably— it is an issue. But, you know, club cricketers, first thing they do when the game's over, they're into the pub having a drink. And that's— it is kind of— has been part and parcel of the game. But the point Well, 2 things really. I think as professional cricketers, you know, you know how you should be looking after yourself and what you do and what you do not do to make sure that your performance is as good as you can make it. You can make mistakes, you can bowl like a drain, you can miss the first ball that you face, but you owe it to yourself. And then the second part is you owe it to your team to make sure that you are in the best possible place to do that. And I think that's part of the most disappointing parts of the ill discipline that there's been over the last few months, because you're letting your teammates down. And once you start doing that, I mean, that, that really is a, a bad— that's a really bad place to be. And I don't see how you can, as Michael was saying, if, if, if you don't— if you're not disciplined off the field, you know, you're not going to be disciplined on it, because that's just the culture. And that, that is something that's I think Joe Root— I mean, he didn't— I mean, Joe Root went, you know, the infamous Noosa trip. Uh, he was off with his family somewhere else. He kind of stepped away from that. And I suspect that— I'm pretty sure that Joe, the model professional, wasn't, wasn't comfortable with it. And so he, he made sure he wasn't seen, you know, on the streets of Noosa with trays of beers.

I, I actually think that under McCullum and Stokes, they did train hard.

They trained hard. Absolutely, they did train hard.

I just think the next— I don't think they trained. I don't think they trained in the right way, though. I think having a three-hour net is actually quite easy.

It's like it like but training smarter.

Well, I I like you know like the no preparation. You're not match hardened. The hard thing is to say that that pink ball game in Australia was the great example of it for me. You had three or four players who'd. never played a pink ball game, never. And yet they decided that—

Including the wicketkeeper.

Including the wicketkeeper. But they decided that they didn't want to go and play because actually the conditions weren't the same. Well, no condition is exactly the same, but it's got to be more beneficial for you to be put under pressure. I think they're almost like, think, oh well, I'll just bat in the net, I'll face a better bowler in the net, and I've won the game. You don't understand the opposition, all that kind of stuff. It's Like, no, you've actually got to go out there and bat and be in the middle. You're under pressure because you might get 2 low scores, but surely that stuff has to be there. I always go back to preseason games where— or, or start on when we used to tour with Flower, and you play the warm-up game and you got out for 15, and then he comes— everyone else doesn't get any runs, and then it comes to tea on day 1, you're batting all day. Do you want another bat? The bit of pride of you says, no, I don't want to go back because I don't want to go out again and get out twice in a day. But you deep down know that that going out again, putting yourself under that pressure for that however long it might be, in the long run is better. Yes, you might end up with egg on your face and you're out twice in a day and you have— it's not even a first-class game, you have the embarrassment of that. But it's that kind of stuff which I think this side needs to do, and the players have to be told it. Right, and we were told sometimes we were told Flowers like towards the end you said yes, I'll have another bat because you couldn't be bothered the argument. But you know because you said oh I've had an hour net, I'm good, I'm good. And Flowers like well it's not the same as getting out there. And actually when you get through that hour batting in the middle, it's ten times better for you and you're ready for you're more prepared than you are. And I think this side needs a bit more of that. You are going to that game to play because you need to, not because you want to, but you need to. And sometimes you have to be told that as a player.

Do you think that, that essentially you pick up the pink ball? Because that, again, you know, I felt strong about as well. Do you think that was really the illustration of the stubbornness that had set in? That there was, there was just not listening to any, anybody at all. This is what we're doing, that's the end of it. And that there was just no movement. I'm sorry, at all, no flexibility.

You can't tell me not one of those players wanted to play deep down, but they didn't want to go against regime and say, actually, you know, because I mean, yes, Noosa, Noosa, I actually got the Noosa trip. I did get it, you know, actually, in terms of like, you've gone on a long tour, you know, they're towards the back end of the tour, those 3 back-to-back games at the end are hard. You've got to, you do have to conserve some energy and, and refresh yourself. But when I saw that tray of beers going on that, on my, on my app on my phone, the guys in nice sunglasses, nice caps, tops off, nice shorts, Going, and I thought that is just not a good look.

So on the subject of preparation, we can throw it forward to this winter because England have got a warm-up game before all three of their Test tours. So England are doing more preparation before the anniversary Test in Melbourne than they did. You could say arguably for the entire Ashes tour, they're playing a day-night game before that. But to round up everything that we've spoken about here, so Brendan McCullum being sacked, Stephen Fleming being hired, Joe Root getting the call to. be England Test captain. Standards off the field, preparation, all of that stops with Rob Kee, does it? They're all his decisions. And did we think that after the Ashes Kee was most vulnerable? Did we think after the New Zealand series Kee was most vulnerable? And yet he is the man still in post. Where does this leave Rob Kee?

Um, well, he's very lucky to still be in in his position. When you, when you think about his reign, the T20 World Cup win was right at the start. Uh, the defense of the, the 50-over World Cup in India was a poor one. Champions Trophy, uh, was a poor one. We've got to a semi-final of a T20 World Cup. Um, we've got to the semi-final of the last 5 T20 World Cups. We haven't won a 5-match series on his watch. Um, haven't won an Ashes series on his watch. So I, I think he'll, he'll know that he's, he's very lucky to, to still be in his position. What I, I think he has now in Marcus North and Stephen Fleming, I, I, and we'll keep using the word sense and mature, I think he's got good people around him now. You know, Freddie Flintoff stepped down from the Lions coach role. What's going to happen there? Will it be a Michael Yardy that gets pushed up from the under-19s, or Richard Dawson? Will they try and grab him from Glamorgan? Um, let's wait and see on that, but You know, Rob Key, he's the next one, isn't he? Just for instance, if they lost to Pakistan here, you know, he will know in the back of his mind that he's quite fortunate to be given an— have a look at Ashley Giles, who did that role straight after the Ashes. And it was an Ashes series throughout COVID, which was— and I just mentioned Joe Root was the captain— it was an awful tour for the team. And to manage that and to manage the team through COVID have been so difficult, but he, he, he got the tick-tack. Um, so for Rob to, to, to be still in his position, um, I think he'll know he's very lucky. But he's got another great chance. He's got a great chance to build this Test match team, to win an Ashes series next year, to be more competitive in a 50-over World Cup, a lot more than we were in India. And you think the conditions would allow that with the way that England play. Um, and he's got a chance to, to go out on his own terms because Deep down, I think he's a good cricket thinker. I think he's overanalyzed some of his quirks too much. I think this taking a punt on selection, you know, with, with some of the selections that we've seen—

Josh Hull was playing last year.

Yeah, and that's not just in the full team. I think that's in the Lions program as well. I think that has to stop. I think there has to be a bit more sense around selection. You've got to get— I look at a lot of the younger players that are coming through our game. I think there's some wonderful talent there, but make them play some cricket, you know, earn the right to get those 3 lines on their chest. Don't just gift them. a 3 Lions opportunity. And I don't see the rush in trying to rush some of these younger players through, just make them earn it. So I would think there'll probably be a little bit of change in the way that they approach those kind of things. But yeah, I think he's got a more sensible group around him that will make more sensible decisions.

It is a job of— so when we're talking about what happened in Australia and maybe stubbornness, I guess, about some of the things that took place there, And how close that McCullum and Key and Stokes were. Is the job of a director of cricket— is when the coach or the captain comes to you and says, I want this, this, this, and this, the director of cricket should be saying, you can have that, that no, yes, you can have this with a but? And has there not been enough of that?

I think that's absolutely true. I don't, I don't think that Rob Key stood up to aspects of that tour in the way that he should have done. And ultimately, he is responsible. I mean, he's the man who signs signs the tour off, uh, and I've spoken to some people, there are some good people who want that job. Yeah, he's got people breathing down his neck. Um, there's the old tabloid saying of being, you know, drinking in last chance saloon. Um, you know, you get the feel it is. I mean, one more— if you're Richard Gould, you're the chief executive, and you're looking out at English cricket at the moment, the men's game particularly, but you're looking out at that and you just see how it looks To sponsors, to advertisers, to supporters. It's not a good look, is it? And I would have thought that Rob Key, if he's doing anything at the moment, because I think actually Michael's absolutely right, he does have people around who actually might actually stand up and say, hang on a minute, or at least not put him in the position of having to challenge them. I mean, Joe Root and Steven Fleming will come up with more sensible, traditional thoughts for their their tours. But discipline, you know, I think if they— if there's any further breach of that, I think Rob Key's in real trouble.

I actually— if you look at the England management that was, you got, you know, Baz McCullum, he's a maverick. You know, Ben Stokes is a maverick. You'd probably say that Rob Key aligns himself more with that kind of character than someone that's quite straight and a bit, dare I say, a bit boring.

You know, why did you look at me?

I don't know why I I looked at you, Alistair.

Straight at me.

You looked at me. I was looking to the left.

I was just seeing who was there.

It was you. Yeah, like Alistair. You know, I think in leadership it's very important that you need your mavericks because they're the kind of dust that can get you over big situations and they can do things that not many can. But give me more of that solid, boring Alistair type. You know, these are the ones that keep the wheels turning around on a day-to-day basis.

Dependable is a better word. Reliable. Reliable.

So anything dull, just use that adjective.

Victor Meldrew.

Were they blindsided a little bit by the success they had in that first 18 months? Because they literally like, yeah. Did they then start believing that they had reinvented cricket a little? Right. And that cult— I don't want to use the word cult, I don't know if I have, but they kind of just started believing their own hype a bit, and therefore McCullum could just say, we're going to do this. And because they'd won all those games, Key said, yeah, go on then. And it kept— and then it got to the stage, well, oh, we won that last series 2 years ago, we won that. And it did just take— they almost like freewheeled it. And that they needed that— that is when Rob Key, after the initial burst of success, then that is when the real quality— I'm talking the top-end leaders Recognize that it's worked for a little bit because you know it's amazing how captain comes in after after after NASA strict captain got England back onto that like you know central contract Fletcher got on going who was the next captain bit more relaxed bit more morning after that was Strauss again do you know what I mean it all it does ebb and flow and we can because of COVID and silver and all that stuff I'm not actually after the more I think about it the more I think that almost That 2 years of cricket needs to just be parked over there because I don't think you could judge Ashley Giles on it. I don't think you could judge Chris Silverwood properly on that kind of stuff because it's actually really unfair on that. But I think on this period, you see, you know, it was such wheels off and it just freewheeled. And almost whatever McCullum said, people believed it, right?

Well, and also, Alistair, you know, you look at the preparation to go and win in Pakistan. What did they do? They went to Abu Dhabi. I think they were playing a 3-day Warm-up game, they pretty much played golf on day 3, didn't they? Stopped it on day 3 and thought, we're gonna play golf. They won in Pakistan, uh, went down to New Zealand and won, yep, uh, on the back of not a lot of preparation. So maybe they thought they were on to something.

In terms of— we started this conversation of, you know, where England have landed and, um, are we better off and those sorts of things. Um, I'm actually quite pessimistic, and I want you to tell me if I'm wrong or not, because Because I look at this test team at the moment, and there's a question mark over one of the openers. There's a makeshift number three at the moment. I would say that the wicketkeeper isn't absolutely assured of his place. Not sure about an all-rounder. Not sure about a spinner. I look at the challenges to come: South Africa away over the winter, Bangladesh away over the winter. Yes, Australia have just lost at home to Bangladesh, but that series next week is next week. Next year is going to be. really tough and hard-fought, and there's gonna be a lot of Australian players who have never won in this country coming here very motivated to have a swan song, to win the Ashes in this country for the only time in their careers. And then you go in the early part of 2028 to India, and we know how hard that is. Am I right to be slightly pessimistic?

You can, you can— for all the off-field stuff, you can only be as good as the players that you've got. And we've mentioned it twice, no world-class spinner, no backup real world-class spinner either. So going to the subcontinent is going to be hard, but they have won before there recently with this kind of same group. Haven't got the world-class all-rounder like Stokes, but actually Sam Curran— I like, I really like the fact they mentioned Sam Curran because he's the best all-rounder England has in that role. So he almost has to play in certain conditions. So look, I, I think It's just, it's not going to be easy. And just because it's all changed, they're not winning every game. But what I think there is, you look at some of those players and you think, yeah, actually, if they take the next step up— I look at all the bowlers and I probably Robinson aside, all of them are like on that kind of teetering as a good bowler. For this side to go and win the Ashes or win in South Africa, we want— they've got to make that jump. And you're allowed to make jumps. You're allowed to improve like Harry Brook. You're allowed to improve as a person, allowed to improve as a leader. So I just really want to look at this side and go, yeah, do you know what, they've, they've made small, small, small steps and then you get somewhere. And that's what happened. Like, go back to 2000 and— I can't remember how many times I told the story— we got bowled out for 51 against a fairly— an okay West Indies side. Same group of players, the same squad with one or two things different, became world number one side. 2 and a half years later. So that is what I want this side— not saying they become— they could become the world champs. I want to see little small steps getting better and better, and then special things can occur.

What's your outlook, Vaughan?

Um, I, I, I don't think it's going to be plain sailing. Um, you know, English cricket never has been really. Um, let's be honest. Yeah, well, I think there's going to be more drama. I, I just look at the side in South Africa. I think the pace attack will have to stay fit. I look at Joffre Archer. Joffre's averaging at the minute 29. You know, I see him as a bowler that should be able to put himself in the categories like we talk about Bumrah, Starc, Cummins, Hazlewood, because their averages are in the low 20s. And for England to compete in South Africa, to beat Australia next summer, you know, your bowling attack has to do the damage. They've got to get you 20 wickets and they have to get you out of trouble when your batters don't quite arrive and perform. Um, at the minute, I think they can at times, but I think they're very inconsistent, and that's something that they're going to have to get really good at in, in terms of having a consistent bowling attack and working out how they're going to utilize 20 wickets when you don't have a world-class spinner. So Joe's going to have to be very clever, uh, tactically. Um, Joe Root will be the key because he's obviously leading the side, and his runs— you know, when Joe Root gets 100 runs in a Test match, 120 runs in a Test match, which he generally does on a consistent basis, England compete. When the opposition get Joe out quite cheaply, England lose most of those games. And that's going to be the challenge for this side, is the runs. You know, it's the batting that's let them down.

That's right.

They're going to have to work a way of batting 120 overs in the first innings, you know, wearing the opposition bowlers down. You know, that's what they've not done regularly enough over the course of the last 2 or 3 3 years and just basic Test match cricket. If they get to the basics, and again I'll keep going back to Bangladesh last week, what they delivered was just basic cricket. Top of off, just outside off, bring the batters forward, catch well, bat for time, bat a long time in the first innings. You win Test matches by doing so. I think they can get to that standard and that level of consistency, they will compete. At the minute, the India tour in '28, I think it'll probably be the same India tour. that we've had on a regular basis over the last 3 or 4, apart from when Cookie's team went there and won.

Well, it's runs for me. I mean, I think Mark is right. I mean, and the approach of the batsmen, because there are some good players there. Crikey, look down. I mean, someone like Dan Lawrence interests me, you know, when he played that absolute crazy innings opening the batting. But how much of that was Bazball influenced? How much of that was just get out there and whack it about? You know, he's a good player. Um, it doesn't— I, I don't think he'll come out and bat like that when he's batting here at number 6 now. Um, you know, did he feel that, that the, the pressure of, of, of that team mentality, that he had to go out and bat like that? It was horrible. But if they can— I just think if England's batsmen just knock— just, it's old-fashioned, it sounds, to knuckle down, but it's not. It's, it's playing, playing within your own limitations and as well as you can, and, and understanding that sometimes you do have to give the bowler a bit. I think that they're perfectly capable of scoring many more runs than they have been, and that then is the platform for, I think, a pretty decent emerging bowling attack, actually.

You know Lawrence Wildcookie?

Yeah, I, I, and I watched those last couple of innings he played for England, and I was actually sad because he wasn't— he's a far better player than that, far better. And actually, one of the things which I saw when I first started, when he first came to Essex, was he was one of the only guys 17, 89, 20, like playing the situation incredibly well. I think as a 17-year-old, got his first 100. Then when we— and then when we first game in Division 1, he got 140 not out against Lancashire to save us the game. And that gave everyone else confidence that we do belong in the first division after 10 years in the second division. And, and just watching him bat like that was just— I was like, yeah, that's Like, you dream about playing for England and then you basically give up and say, I'm just gonna whack my way out of trouble. Yeah, is he a natural opener? No, he wasn't, but he did open when he was a youngster. So that's what— that did frustrate me. I'm glad he's got another chance. I think he'll be positive because his runs he scored this year at Surrey have been at close, close to runnable-ish at certain times. He has got a— I think one of his hundreds is a bit slow, so I don't expect him to block it, but he, he, he will be the one that— his technique is a bit unusual and a bit— and he gets out in unorthodox ways. It looks ugly when it doesn't come off. It's how he then— a couple of low scores— how he handles that now. But he needs, he needs a couple. He's got these 3 games, isn't he? You feel 3 games to score some runs, and if he does, he'll carry on. If he doesn't, I think he'll then get a bit parked as not quite good enough for Test cricket.

Just a last point on, on On England then, the thing that I find really interesting about the batting and the runs is actually there's, there's quite a strong opportunity for competition for places once Jacob Bethell is available from his injury, and if Sam Curran does come back into the team. So I think that's 2 players who could come into the top 7.

Ollie Pope.

Ollie Pope is here as well. But if you think someone like Emilio Gay, who's still to establish himself in the side, Jordan Cox is essentially a temporary number 3, Lawrence is there. Smith might need a score if Cox can keep wicket. What about maybe the competition for places that could develop over the next few weeks?

Absolutely. And I think we went through a stage— I'm always— you do want to try and back people more times than not, but it's certainly when things don't go quite so well. Those last couple of years, they just played the same team over and over again. There was no accountability for that. And I think going back to the basics, what breeds better Performances is competition, unfortunately. Like you need, and that is the nature of the test match beast, the nature of any high elite sport. When Emilio Gay is on that fine thing, comes in debut, everyone's excited, and gets a good fifty on a tough wicket. Brilliant. Everyone's like, yeah, looks really like scores well. Has a couple of dodgyish test matches, has to bat at seven in one of the games. But now, in his fourth game, people are like, God, if he crosses himself off and nicks. nicks a couple early or gets LBW. Unfortunately, that is the difference of playing international cricket and how you handle that. And if you can— and that's what we're about to see. And that's what I like. I love that bit of it because I know how hard it is, but I like watching people having to deal with it because you can't run away from it. This side has run away from pressure, like tried to take all the pressures off players, and guess what? You can't. Because look, it's full house, big, big important game. There's pressure when you play for them. So bring it on, and I'm excited to see who comes through it.

Do you feel there's— Michael, there's been enough accountability for poor shot and a failure? It doesn't— there doesn't appear to have been. And, and it has to hurt, doesn't it? It, it, it really has to make you want to, you know, kick yourself and get out there and do—

yeah, I mean, I, I look at Emilio Gay and think how, how much that move to put him to number 7 will damage him. Wouldn't have happened, but I, I just look at Now, Ben Stokes moving to the top of the order, what does that do for a young player that's in the side? Basically, the England side saying to Emilio Gay, you can't do the job at the top of the order.

Wouldn't have done it to Zak Crawley, would they?

No, they wouldn't. And, and that is, is intriguing to me to see how he copes. That is on the back of a pair playing against Pakistan last week. Um, look, the only thing that you can control as a player when you're in the side is your currency is runs. So Emilio Gets some runs this week. Jordan Cox gets a big score at number 3. You're then looking at Jacob Bethell, who's obviously out for the whole series. And, you know, the skill of a group of players when you get that chance is to make sure that you say to the selectors, I'm staying in the side. And if you've got your place in the side, which Jordan Cox has, Dan Lawrence has at number 6, Emilio has at number 2, make it very, very difficult for the selectors. The one thing that's very important if you want to be a High-class Test match side, if you look at England teams when they've had success, um, we've had a top 3 that's been quite solid, a top 3 that's been able to bat and bat for a long period of time, which allows your flamboyancy to come in the middle of the innings. While ever you're 30 for 3, 50 for 4, um, you're not going to be a consistent Test match side against the better teams. So it's that top 3, whoever it may be, over time, uh, they have to work away together. It's like you're a little group, you're 1, 2, and 3. Your job is to see off that new ball however that may look. It might be aggressive, it might be seeing off, playing for your off stump, leaving it— whatever the, the moment and the situation tells you as a top 3. Your job is, is to make sure that you read it correctly, you do it for the team, and if you do it on a more consistent basis, that's when you start to get some big numbers. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So much sport today, and all the goals as they go in up and down the league.

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