England's one-day woes continue with India defeat

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So, a 6th win in a row for India in One Day Internationals against England, that after England comprehensively won the T20 series. India winning by 6 wickets with 4.4 overs to spare. And there was a sense of inevitability about India's victory from quite early in the match, really, when Harry Brook was caught at slipping. There was 64 for 3, and they struggled. They got themselves together to get up to 258. Root making 76 not out, and Liam Dawson 68. Acha Patel taking 4 for 62, but it never felt quite enough. It wasn't a totally straightforward pitch. India lost a couple of wickets before they'd reached 50. Kohli out to Archer for 5, but there was a century stand between Washington Sundar, 52 not out, and Acharya Patel, 57 not out. They got India home. It was old school one-day international cricket, really. Deep Dasgupta and Vik Marks are alongside me. Victor, these are the sort of games you used to play in.

So very tedious then. Well, it was very much a routine victory. It wasn't a tense game because, as you say, once England lost those 3 wickets for 60, losing 3 wickets in about 3 overs, India were always in the box seat. And although Root and Dawson put together a very good partnership, 250 still wasn't enough. And India, in a way, gave a lesson in how to calmly knock off those runs. And little, little tremor when they lost 2 or 3 wickets. But Gill could still be batting now if he hadn't gone in his hamstring or whatever it is. He batted beautifully, and then the 2 left-handers at the end calmly took India to victory. So I'm sure it's a welcome relief for the Indian tourists who struggled for success on this tour, but they did it. They were far more competent than England.

Yeah, Gill making 80 off 75 balls before he retired hurt with a hamstring injury, stroke cramp. We, we yet to discover the nature of that. But yeah, after what India suffered in the T20 series, uh, deep— I mean, we've come to expect this of India in one-day cricket, and we've come to expect of England a bit actually. They, they do struggle in one-dayers.

Yeah, I mean, as far as India is concerned, they've I mean, last few years they've been really good in this format as well. Uh, yeah, like you said, I think there's a sense of relief as well apart from everything else. I mean, yes, they would be happy and all of that, but then especially for the guys who were here for the T20 series, and these two, the left-handers, were part of that T20 series, and both of them finishing the game off half centuries, I think just brings back some, some confidence in that dressing room. And obviously Shubman Gill was absolutely brilliant and England, couple of things. I thought won the toss, and then I thought the openers did well to kind of nullify to a certain extent, going unbeaten till 61, that, that opening partnership. But then those 3 wickets, and I think England were behind the 8-ball ever since that phase of the game.

And the other pattern, very distinct pattern from an English perspective, is that they are very good at T20, and they've got a terrific record in recent times. Times in T20. They are pretty useless at the moment at 50-over cricket, and they have been almost since winning the World Cup in 2019. And that's partly due to the players, it's partly there's been a certain disdain for 50-over cricket, uh, from the authorities, I think. So they don't, they don't really value 50-over cricket as much, and it's sort of coming home to roost that now. They've got into a slough where they, they struggle in this format, and they don't quite know how to play it. They've got obviously some gifted players, but their record— I mean, it's unusual today for England to bat 47 overs having lost a lot of early wickets. They did well to do that, but their record is, you know, worthy of a lot of sort of concern, I think, because the World Cup is the big goal. It's still a big goal, but England, since winning it, don't seem to be too bothered about it, frankly.

Yeah, well, and also they haven't absolutely nailed down their place in the World Cup in South Africa and Namibia and Zimbabwe. Yeah, I mean, it's quite complicated trying to work it all out.

I mean, they should—

let's get some reaction now. Shubman Gill is with Eleanor Oldroyd.

Well, congratulations, Shubman, on the big win today. I should ask you first of all though, how are you?

I'm feeling much better, just a bit of cramps I started getting when I was batting around 50-60. I wanted to, you know, get there, finish the job for the team, but unfortunately I had to come out. I'm very glad with the result.

And you managed to have a bit of a rest?

You Are you going to be okay for Cardiff?

Yes, I think so.

That's good. Well, I mean, you, you were batting so well, um, that target really maybe was not— was, was well within your zone, wasn't it, really? Did you think that there might be a few challenges along the way?

Uh, yes, the target was within our reach, but the wicket was a bit tricky, you know. It was at times it was playing up and down, so we knew as long as, you know, we don't lose too many wickets in the power play in the first 15 overs, we'll be in, in the driving position.

What can you say about Axar Patel polishing off that England tail, crucially depriving them of the opportunity to get a few more runs on the board and then knocking off those runs at the end with Washington.

Brilliant. You know, when you see your middle order or your lower middle order scored like that, you get a lot of confidence, especially as a captain and as a top order. You know that, you know, your middle order and your lower order is in form, so you can actually start attacking from the get-go.

And for you, we know how many runs you scored in the Test series last summer. We remember that so well. You like playing in England and scoring runs here.

Yeah, I mean, it's a great place to be, you know, so many fans cheering. The stadiums are always, uh, the stadiums are always full, and I love this ground, you know. Last time we came here, I had a lot of good memories, so very happy to add on another one.

Congratulations. We'll let you go to the presentation.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Shubhangail, India's captain. Well, good news there, confirming right at the start of the interview that it was cramp. There's not a hamstring injury deep.

Yeah, and, and he said hopefully he, he would be there for the Cardiff game as well, and I think he would be there a couple of days in between. So I think should be enough for him to recover. Uh, but then yeah, something that he mentioned about the middle order, low middle order, and that is so crucial, and especially the kind of combination that India is looking for in terms of getting all-rounders, because India doesn't have too many fast bowling all-rounders. So they have to depend on, on their spinners, as in spin bowling all-rounders, for that. And, and that's where I think these two getting half centuries, and especially Axar getting those wickets as well— I know back end of it. But then 4 wickets are 4 wickets. Next time when he goes in to bowl— and you would know better than anyone—

well, the other thing that happened, of course, that he wasn't going to bowl that over until there was an injury concern with Braha. I mean, it did England no service at all. They've probably got another 15 or 20 runs but for that. And on he came and bowled beautifully at the, the tail and nullified England's fight back in a way.

Jasprit Bumrah back in India's side today. A deep 9 overs, 1 for 31. He's probably a bit unlucky actually not to get some wickets in the power play. What did you make of him?

He's, he's looked really good because I saw him a month ago, I believe, at the IPL. He didn't look 100%, but when I saw him kind of warming up, he's looking athletic, he's looking fit and leaner. Then when I saw him run, and, and you know, that's with the bowlers, you see them run and you can figure out they're in rhythm and and you saw that he, like you said, he is unlucky. But also got to give credit to English openers. I think they handled that first few overs really well.

Yeah, there were—

there's always going to be play and miss. But then, yeah, I mean, it's, it's really good because he also got a little bit of a break after the IPL. He didn't play the, the, the Afghanistan series and didn't come for the T20 either. I think it's, it's important to manage his workload. And now I think for the time being, till the 50-over World Cup he'll be focusing more on this format rather than T20, because you know he's got it in him. It's just that how do you manage his workload? And yeah, he's looked really, really good.

Look pretty handy for someone who hasn't played 50-over game for 2 and a half years. I, I, you know, I think he is so mature as a cricketer that he can do that. Not everyone can, but he, he can.

What did he make of Gunnar Brahe playing his fourth one-dayer today? Picked up a a couple of wickets. In fact, he was the one that got it going for India, wouldn't he, with the wickets of Duckett and Bethell?

Well, it looked like he was going to have a bit of a nightmare because he went— they went after him. I think he went for a couple sixes in his first couple overs. He'd gone for 20-odd in 2, and you thought—

26 off his first.

Yeah, 26 off 2. And you thought, this is gonna— this is gonna test him. And within the next 20 minutes, the whole day had turned around. So there's clearly talent. I mean, General point is, and this is old-fashioned talk, they used to think about India, well, their spinners are fantastic, but you know, they never have any pacemen. We're talking several decades ago, and now it seems that they've got a reservoir of capable, strong pacemen, some raw, but it's no longer the case that there are no pace bowlers in India. We know that.

Yeah, I mean, with, with Gurnoor, what, what I think is he's still work in progress. This is his first proper tour here in England. So I thought the first couple of overs he was a little up and down, still trying to find the right length to bowl, maybe at the right line as well. And then I think from that wicket kind of helped him to settle down a little bit. Again, that wicket wasn't of a great delivery, it was again a short ball which Bethell hit straight to the fielder. But then I thought that wicket kind of helped him settle down. And he's someone who's got it in him, he's got all the raw materials in him. It's now how— what he does with them, how he evolves as a bowler. I think, uh, so there is a lot of faith in him which has been put in, in, into him by the, the management, the selectors. Because like you mentioned before as well, he hasn't played a lot of domestic cricket. So you've seen him and you like what you've seen, and then you've kind of fast-tracked him into the international side.

What about India's top order? I mean, Rohit Sharma's back here for this. He made 11 today. Virat Kohli made 5. We saw him in the IPL and scored lots of runs. Actually the winning runs in the IPL final, hitting a 6 off Ashad Khan to win it for RCB. Again, he's locked in for the World Cup. Is Rohit Sharma locked in for the World Cup, do you think, Deep? He's going to be 40 by the time the World Cup comes around.

Yeah, I think penciled in is what I'd say. And most of them, to be fair, it's not just Rohit or Virat, or I think it just goes for everyone apart from maybe the captain and Jasprit Bumrah. Yeah, I mean, I think for everyone they're penciled in, and this looks like You put Hardik Pandya in this, and maybe Hardik comes in, Kuldeep also then comes into the 11. I think that would be the ideal playing 11 across all conditions for me. But then, yeah, but then they need to keep scoring runs, and it's not easy when you've— when you're only playing one format. Because again, after these 3 games, you're going to take some time off, and then again staying away from international cricket. There's no domestic cricket either which is happening. And then you're going to go to Zimbabwe in maybe, I don't know, maybe 3 weeks' time to play another series there. So it's always going to be tough, and how they, they manage to keep themselves match fit is going to be a big, big challenge.

Well, it's quite interesting, especially in the batting lineups, is that India seemed to view 50-over cricket as a kind of an extension of Test cricket, and England seemed to treat 50-over cricket as an extension of Twenty20 cricket.

Perfect.

And I sort of think India's way is better.

Yes, I completely agree, because if you look at Nowadays in Test matches, you're scoring at 3.5-4. Yeah, all it takes is one extra single per over and you're getting to 300 in 50 overs, rather than trying to convert 50 overs into 220-over match and, and 220-over innings rather, and look at that way. So yeah, I completely agree what you say. I think India does look at it like that, and you know, kind of maybe a little old school, but I think it, it has worked so far for India.

Right, it's time to hear from Harry Brook. He is with Eleanor Aldroyd.

Yes, Harry, such a terrific effort during the T20s. Um, what are your reflections on today in the 50-over form?

Uh, not ideal, obviously. Um, there was a big part of the game where we lost 5 for 20 runs, and which made a massive difference in the game really. We, we thought getting to 260 was going to be enough, but the pitch got slightly better in the second half and it was it was hard to try and force wickets.

So for the core of the team, when you've got, you know, so many batters falling so quickly, I mean, India bowl just very well, didn't they? And, you know, we know how good this team are when they've got all their big guns together.

They executed extremely well. They were relentless with their lines and lengths and put us under pressure, especially in that period. And yeah, they just, they played very well.

What do you need to do to improve that, do you think, going forward to the rest of the series?

I think it's just a— it's a one-off really. Like I said, we lost 5 for 20, which is— which is a bad period for us there. If we get 320, 330 on that surface in the end and, and allow our spinners to bowl through the middle a little bit more and tie them down, then it could have been a completely different game. But unfortunately, we just didn't— we didn't execute as well as we could have done.

On the other hand, you've got Joe Root back, who's a bit of a born-again 50-over player, isn't he? Having missed out for a while in this format?

I played extremely well in Sri Lanka. He got, he got a load of runs over there, so I'm not sure he's missed out much, but he's obviously had a little bit of time away from the 50-over format, as have we all. But it's about coming back and trying to get results on our side.

Can you adapt quickly, do you think, and take it forward for the rest of this series? Definitely.

I think we saw that in the T20s. We adapted really well to surfaces in T20s. Today was just a slightly off day, and hopefully we can come back stronger in Cardiff.

All right, well, enjoy the rest of the week.

Thank you.

Cheers.

There's Harry Brook talking to Eleanor Aldroy. Wasn't it at the toss he said he thought, you know, bat first and the ball will spin? But actually said he thought the wicket got better. I don't know whether that's a bit of post-rationalization.

It might be, but I'm not sure the toss made a huge amount of difference. I don't think it changed that much. I just think India played better cricket Yeah, yeah.

And, and I thought that that opening partnership kind of nullified, if there was anything, because there was 61 without loss, England. And, and that I think that kind of nullified. And then those, those 5 wickets that Highbrook mentioned, I think that just changed the complexion of the game completely.

What do England need to do, Victor, then, in one-day cricket?

I mean, a bit more, play a bit more of it. That's my simple and heartfelt answer. I think We tried to kid ourselves after 2019 and the advent of the Hundred and the abandonment of domestic 50-over cricket for our best players. I think it was almost inevitable that there was going to be a downturn in how we perform in 50-over cricket, uh, and I think there was this sort of naive assumption that, oh, if you can play 20/20 cricket, you can play 50-over cricket, it's not that much difference. And that was a convenient assumption for everyone, both the people running the game but also the people playing the game. Because obviously, if you're a young player nowadays and you want a long and lucrative career, there's not much to be made of being a top 50-over player. But if you're a top T20 player, there's a fantastic opportunity out there to have a very rewarding career. So that is, you know, the, the deep core of it. And I think it's very hard for this group of players to kind of make that distinction, that there is a distinction between playing 20 overs and 50 overs. And it just doesn't happen automatically. Tactically. You need a bit of practice at it.

Since England's World Cup win at Edgbaston in 2019 against India, a victory that saved them in that competition— it's England 2 wins, India 9. I mean, India are kind of the gold standard up there with Australia, aren't they? As, as well in all forms actually, but also in, in one-day cricket.

Yes, they are. Um, and you know, there'll be firmer favorites than England when it takes place in South Africa, albeit in slightly alien conditions. A lot more bounce there than at home.

What do you see when you look at this, kind of the makeup of this England side?

Uh, see, what I think is they need to play more to find the right tempo for this format. And I completely agree when Vik, you said they play like they're playing an extension of T20. And that's where I think, you know, if they keep playing more 50 overs, they'll find the right tempo. They play often enough, they know how to go about in this format. So I think that's, that's one thing that they might want to do, I mean, in the next year or so before the World Cup.

I mean, in this match, actually, they did well to get 260. They batted badly and got 260. I mean, if they had managed to have get to the over number 35 with about 4 wickets, we've got players Every team now has got players that can cause mayhem in those last 15 overs in a way that didn't seem to be possible years ago.

Or they might even— if you really want to convert this into an extension of 20, then in the first 30 you play it differently, and then the last 20 with wickets in hand, let's say 8 or 7 wickets, you can play T20. Then you can play T20. I mean, you, you have, you know, players like Joe Root and all, and someone like even Ben Duckett, who's a Test player. If you have you've got a couple of more players like that in the top 3, top 4, and you, you bat like that in the first 30 and then last 20, 7 wickets, 8 wickets in hand, then yeah, play T20.

Okay, it's only a small sample size, it's one game. The last, uh, One Day International series that England played, they won in Sri Lanka. They played actually some pretty good cricket. They won by 2 matches to 1. But generally speaking, they're on a, you know, a pretty downward trend.

Well, they are. They've got to be hungry to play more games. And you know, they've got 2 more coming up in full houses, it's a great opportunity to improve.

Now another talking point today, well in the last couple of days of course, the Brendan McCullum situation, no longer head coach. Harry Brook at the toss, had a chance to ask him just for his reaction, just a quick answer, you know, what was your reaction to Brendan McCullum going? And he said disappointing, and there was a kind of, there was a sense of disappointment there, you know, it's out of my hands, it's kind of not my decision, and you know, he praised Brendan McCullum in a way that, you know, it's not just the feeling, got the impression that, you know, he would have much preferred him to stay on. I think they've had a good working relationship. What did you make of that, Victor?

Well, I, I thought he answered your probing question, um, perfectly well with quite a lot of candor and implicitly told us that he didn't want McCullum to go. He would have preferred McCullum still to be there. You can understand why he's been moved on because results have tailed off. I, I can't avoid— I think this observation that I mentioned to you earlier in the day is that England have had managers since Mickey Stewart back in the late '80s. Every Englishman who has been coach has lost more Test matches than they've won. Every overseas coach, including McCullum, that England have had happens to have won more Test matches than they lost. Now, whether that has any effect or impact on, on what happens next, I don't know. But in a sense, you look at McCullum's overall record and it holds, you know, it's very good compared to the vast majority of people who've held that position. Admittedly, it's tailed off now, but for 2 years it was astonishing what was going on. It's going to be exciting to see how they fill that post now. What is important, I think, is that you— whoever is captain and the relationship in the modern game between captain and coach is very important. They need to have a similar view. They might be different characters, but they need to have a similar view because we've seen in the past how difficult it is when you've got a captain and a coach who are not at one. I mean, thinking back a while. I mean, dear old Mike Atherton and Ray Illingworth got on quite well, but they disagreed about how or who should be playing very often, that sort of thing. You need captain and coach to have a lot in common in terms of how they want that game to be played, otherwise you're in trouble, I think.

But it has felt like the right decision to make a change, yeah?

Uh, I guess so, but I, I have some sympathy for McCullum because overall, when you look back on it, He has got actually quite a good record, but it has tailed off in the last 12 months or so.

What's the Indian view looking in?

My view is it's more to do, I guess, with the style of cricket than actually the results. I guess if you want the same, more of the same, the way that England's been playing Test match cricket, then I don't think you need a change. Then why change then? Unless what you've thought of is course correction, so to say, and a different approach to Test cricket, then for me it makes sense. Otherwise, if it's the same thing and it's like Bazball 2.0, then why let go of him then?

Well, we're gonna— there's lots of intrigue ahead, really. Who's gonna be the captain? Who's gonna be the coach? All sorts of names on a list about— so up to about—

presumably they've got to get their skates on coach first, then captain. That's what they want to do. And they've got— they're going to open, of course, to IPL coaches. They've said that. Whether IPL coaches want the strain and longevity, you know, how much time it is throughout a year, where they want to take that on now is debatable. I think they get quite well paid though by the ECB, actually. So there might be a few candidates out there. Well, it'd be an intriguing appointment.

Well, the favorite at the moment is Andy Flower. It doesn't necessarily mean he's going to get the job, but Andy Flower is the favorite.

Is he with the bookies?

Yeah, but so, but the thing is he's got an IPL contract with RCB. He's also got a Hundred contract with London Spirits. That does take up, you know, quite a bit of your time. And also the debate is going to be about, you know, how you can sell that to England supporters who are not happy to see their players playing the IPL and then, you know, sometimes missing Test matches as a result. And if you've got your coach who's supposed to be planning for a Test series.

Yeah.

And but there's They have already said they would accommodate.

They have, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, which is just a hint of where they're looking. So it's, you know, it's not dull following English cricket just a little bit. You never quite know what's around the corner.

You know, the biggest challenge right now to find coaches is franchise cricket, because like you said, Andy does a couple of these franchises, gets handsomely paid, and rightly so, because he's one of the most successful coaches around. So to get a full-time international coach Yeah, it is a bit of a trouble. I mean, challenging, rather.

Okay, thanks very much, Deep and Victor. More cricket tomorrow with the quarterfinals of the men's T20 Blast. Sports Extra from 4:25 PM, uh, for that one. Cardiff on Thursday, we are on air at 12:45 for a 1 o'clock start in Cardiff.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Well, today is the last Blue for Bob day after 5 years raising money and awareness for the Bob Willis Fund. Since 2021, more than £2.2 million has been raised for prostate cancer research following the death of the former England captain to the disease in 2019. Earlier today, Jonathan Agnew was joined by Bob's wife Lauren Clark and his great friend Sir Ian Botham, and he first asked both what Willis would have made of Blue for Bob Day.

I think he'd be very proud. Uh, he initially probably would have been a bit embarrassed. Why me? What have I done? Uh, but, uh, no, I think he'd be very, very proud of what the family have achieved.

Tell about Bob the man, you two, you know, both in your different, in your different ways. The fast bowler, first of all. I mean, what, what will you remember? What do you remember about Bob, Ian?

Look, When I played my first Test at Trent Bridge, as we walked out onto the pitch, he came up behind, put his arm around me and said, "Beefy, you're here because you can do it." Right. And that to me was a magnificent thing for someone of his experience to come and say that to me. And that was the start of a really good friendship. We shared the new ball for many, many years. People didn't realize how quick he was., and he got bounced. But for me, the thing I enjoyed most was his company, his sense of humor, very dry. Yes. Uh, a love of wine and food, and we spent a lot of time. So people, I couldn't do that with half the team, but Bob and I struck it off. And, uh, encouragement, um, time spent telling it, don't bowl there, you idiot, you know. 'You know, you know what he can do.' And I learned a lot. I learned a hell of a lot. And a lot of that goes down simply to Bob.

Yeah, very unorthodox, wasn't he? And yet there have been two— I wonder if you can name them. I bet you can't. I've not got to challenge you on this. I've seen two non-bowlers get Test wickets doing a Bob Willis impersonation.

Ram Gucci.

Uh, in that case, if he did, that's three. Guy didn't see— okay, I haven't seen that one. You can go in with Gucci, and I can believe that Gucci probably would have done that.

He did quite a bit.

There's two others. Um, Alistair Cooke, a horrible one. Sharma caught down the leg side at Trent Bridge, but it was, it was the arm pumping, the ridiculously long run. And another one was your mate in Calcutta, a totally dead game. You weren't on the tour, um, when India batted for about 3 and a half days, as they did most times over there. Yeah, Alan Lamb was thrown the ball. And from the boundary edge, he came tearing in doing a full Bob Willis impersonation and got Manoj Prabhakar LBW. And Richard Ellison, who bowled about 60 overs in the game, was in the bath like that, and I was 12th man. He said, what was that noise? And that went out. So I can't, I can't tell you, Richard. He got about nought for 130.

Yeah, but let me add an advantage, because it could never bounce over. You can't deliver it from about 18 inches off the ground. Well, that's where the arm is.

He came screaming in with the ball. But it was— it was— we all know the Bob Willis run-up, don't we? We all know it.

Yeah, it was very unorthodox, wasn't it?

Yes.

Yeah, his love of Dylan. Oh, Dylan, that should drive me mad. I got— I went to so many Bob Dylan in various parts of the country, and on occasions not one night, two nights, three nights in a row.

And same gig, same music.

Same venue. Um, in the end, you sort of— it gets in your head after a while and you start singing it.

I think he listened to Bob Dylan every single day of his life, and he died— luckily, I sort of remembered at the last minute and played, um, Positively Fourth Street at the end. And I think his last breath was at the end of the song.

Wow, amazing. Yeah, that's kind of— what was it? What was about his music, I wonder, that Bob latched in.

Bob was very deep.

Yes.

And yeah, something— I mean, he loved Wagner as well. I mean, I can't do Wagner. I went to one with him. I love Parsifal.

I'm a Wagner man.

Okay, so I went to see Parsifal with him, 5 and a half hours.

Even the speeded-up version.

So relieved when it ended. He's just absolutely captivated.

Gets immersed.

Yeah.

And what about at home then? Um, is it the same sort of character?

You know, we had a complicated getting together, but when we, when we were together, we were— it was just the absolute best. He was so loving, absolutely hilarious, had a nickname for absolutely everything. Um, and we just really understood each other and liked doing the same things. Like, I don't like beaches either, you know. I mean, he Sand's a design fault. And you know, he's very opinionated. Yes, I like the same wine as him. I mean, I suppose you'd grow to—

I haven't got any choice.

Exactly. Um, tell me about when, when, you know, when he, when he started his commentating and he was quite sort of laid back, so quiet commentator, wasn't he? Observations. He went off and he came back as this, like the, the chainsaw, you know, in The Verdict, him and Charles Colville, a Bob would just— he'd be just, you know, hacking down everything. Was that a deliberate— was that kind of a tactical thing where he went away and thought, right, I'm going to have to—

yeah, I mean, I think that he's quoted as saying that he, um, he, he, he realized that he wasn't going to get— make a career in broadcasting if he was just too nice and said, oh, he was unlucky to get out and that sort of stuff. He did an interview with you and Jimmy and, um, Stuart where he said that. So he, he had to get his chainsaw out and cut them off at the knees.

Um, I think he meant it, Ian. I mean, he could be quite a savage on that, couldn't he?

Yeah, but look, everything— when he— when someone sits there and gets it— puts a plastic nose on like this and then puts a judge's wig, it's hard to take that particularly seriously. No, it is. And I think, genuinely think, that Bob did it because it was his humor.

Yeah.

And he enjoyed doing it.

Yeah. And also, when I remember, it was Trent Bridge where Joe Root and the boys caught called him up and he went in there and they all had the wigs on and things when he came in. But oh, Joe Root certainly did. Yeah, they suddenly then, they actually warmed to him straight away because he could see that it was his humor, uh, his— and then he would go and talk to the boys, bowlers would start to come to him. Yeah, which is great. And at first he was in danger of isolating himself, but it wasn't by the end.

People always remember Headingley '81 and you'll You'd be bored to death of talking about it. People do tend to remember your contribution there particularly, possibly even more than Bob's. Is that a fair comment? I mean, did Bob ever feel that? I mean, people was talking about Ian Botham heading the 81, and yet Bob, that the, you know, Bob's bowling won the game in the end. Did he ever feel that that was like that or not?

Oh, all the time. He used to give me so much stick. Yeah, I mean, there was no—

Bob wasn't like that.

You're between the two of us, it's bound to be that competition. Yeah, yeah, and it was. And, you know, he also batted well in that, that game, uh, he hung around, which was important to get a total. It wasn't really a total, uh, we— 130, what it was to chase down. But then they did the same in the next test at, uh, Edgbaston here. Yeah, yeah.

So did you, did you ever, when you're having a glass, talk about that game particularly, the two of you together?

No, apart from, uh, apart from the party we had, uh, at Headingly on the rest day, a big marquee at our house. And yes, we had a party.

Was that the wheelbarrow incident?

We had— well, there was a wheelbarrow incident. There's also the—

what was it? Sorry, just rewind. What was the wheelbarrow incident?

I can't remember it.

Oh, come on, you can't leave it dangling.

No, I know. He actually, um, a couple of the boys got wheeled out in wheelbarrows.

Oh dear.

Yeah, it really wasn't that complicated, not by that time in the morning.

Fair enough. Okay, well, you've brought that subject up, Ian, for the last few minutes here. You'll have been following what's been going on with, with, um, the Test team and everything else. What, what do you think at the moment about this, about the current sort of image of, of English cricket? Does it, does it concern you?

Yes, it does concern me. Um, I actually feel for those people working in Australia on radio and what have you, and you see the ground, you see the support for England, and most of the grounds— the ground would have been 60-40 English supporters. They've gone over there, and those grounds are much bigger than anything we've got, you know, MCG, 100,000. And you go there, and then I think these guys have saved all that money for all those months to come out and enjoy a summer in Australia and the Ashes. And it can— a combat, again, it's not a walk around, it's combat, it's gladiatorial. And, uh, it wasn't. And, uh, I felt so sorry for those people who'd spend all that money and they were asked trying to do things. I remember one family in tears, the children in tears, and I was getting into the lift in the hotel And I said to him, well, they said to me, what can we do? What can we do? I said, look, embrace Australia because you're in a country that has probably one of the best sporting records of all time and enjoy it. But the kids didn't want that. The kids wanted to see cricket. They want to see the heroes running around, and they didn't get that. And that was what saddens me. If you Do you want people to come through the turnstiles? You've got to perform. Yeah, you've got to give them something back.

You've got to be prepared to perform. You've got to do the hard work first, haven't you? Well, you'll learn your lines in an acting sense.

Well, as we know, I mean, Michael Vaughan and I, we don't know what we're talking about. A couple of old has-beens. But the—

I didn't think you'd take that very well when he said that.

Well, let's see. No, but one thing's for sure though, Ben, if you're listening, congratulations, you've joined the club. You're now a has-been.

Well, there you go. Where does it go from here? I mean, you know, where does English cricket go? I mean, no captain, no coach, it just seems such a—

such a— Briers, I've had a brief conversation with him, he's still looking pretty good. Briers, get him out.

Have you got any, any thought about how it does? I mean, when you actually have lost both together and you've got the Ashes coming next year, I mean, do they, do they look aside, have you got any thoughts about the coach? Would you think someone like Andy Flower, for instance, who people have talked about a lot, do you think he would actually take this job with all the spotlight, all the pressure, when he actually has got a couple of nice franchise jobs going? I mean, it's a big, it's a big ask, isn't it?

The only— the, the coach that I admired the most, and I played, and he was coaching assistant manager in those days. We weren't an entourage 40-odd people. We were an entourage of about 16, 17 people. And the late Kenny Barrington— oh yes, it was magnificent. And one of the things I think the boys took to straight away was the fact you never heard Kenny say, 'In my day.' It was always relevant. He wanted the boys to do well. The rest of the coaches, as far as I'm concerned, those guys used to take you to the ground. Yeah, all aboard the coach, off we go. Yeah, it was one But he's absolutely right. Sometimes the coach can be there, but he's got to be there for the right things. And for me, uh, if anyone else could do it like Kenny Barrington, get hold of them quickly.

Yeah, because we of course played really at a time— he certainly— counties had no coaches, did they? And, and how, how that authority kind of balances.

Well, when you've got Brian Close as your captain, when you're a youngster and you first go in You're not going to say anything, actually. You're not going to say— and but he will tell you exactly what he thought you did wrong.

Yes.

And then after that, he'd put his arm around shoulder, take you over to the Stragglers bar there, as you know well, at Taunton those days. And in the summer, sit there and he'd say, right, yeah, I'll talk to you through what I'm talking about. And it'll be a 3 or 4 minute conversation, forgotten, done. Let's get on with tomorrow.

Is there any part of the mentality of the last 4 years— I mean, in the first 2 years, that team that was pretty broken, wasn't it, when McCullum and Stokes took over, it was rock bottom. There was some very exciting cricket played those next 2 years. Is there any part of that you'd like to see or live on with whoever does come in? And I mean, do you think that mentality is good, albeit at least with some checks on it and some common sense applied?

Well, look, if you go back through the history books, I think the sides in the '70s, '80s, and maybe the early '90s played aggressive cricket, but it wasn't kamikaze cricket. It was aggressive. You have people like Graeme Gooch at the top of the order, you've got people like Gower, Lamb in our side. And you look at the Australians, players they had— Matthew Hayden didn't block it too often. No, but he scored lots of runs. And I just think that Get yourself in, give yourself a chance. There are occasions when you maybe have to take the challenge up earlier than you want. You need selection, and I say selection, the selection of deliveries. You do not have to play at every ball. If you are playing at everything, every ball, a bowler gets very excited.

Yes, yes.

And that's, that's what we saw in Australia.

I think Ben Stokes will come back.

I don't see how he can. If I'm honest, I don't see— look, you don't make a decision like that, which I thought was weird, in the middle of a test.

Timing, yes. And always a pleasure catching up with you. We don't do it enough, but, um, you're always welcome to come and see us, you know that.

Look, at the end of the day, there's so many great memories. You could sit here for a year every day and having a different toast for Bob Willis. Yeah, because that's the kind of person he was. You don't see the generosity that— in the time he gave to people, uh, He didn't suffer fools, but no, nor should he. And, uh, but no, he, uh, remarkable man. And everything that's been done here for him is great, the support they've had, and it's a great cause and it's making a difference, and that's the important thing.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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He's widely recognized as one of the greatest footballers in history.

He's won the prestigious Ballon d'Or award 5 times.

He's the all-time leading goalscorer in professional football.

And according to the Bloomberg Billionaires Index, he's the first active footballer in history to achieve billionaire status.

Guess who we're talking about yet?

That's right, Good Bad Billionaire is exploring the life and fortune of football icon Cristiano Ronaldo.

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