England’s Summer preview

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. We will look ahead to England's men's Test summer. It begins at Lord's on Thursday against New Zealand. It's a 3-match series. Uh, New Zealand fast bowler Matt Henry, uh, will join us a little bit later on. England's Dani Gibson will join us as well because we're less than 2 weeks out from the Women's T20, uh, World Cup. And with us for the next hour. 3 men who've all played for England: former captain Alistair Cook, former batsman Mark Ramprakash, and former fast bowler Stephen Finn. So we seem to have everything covered. Before we bring any of them in, let's get straight to hearing from Brendan McCullum, who obviously is staying in charge of the side. So the first Test against New Zealand is on Thursday at Lord's, and last week our correspondent Stephen Shemmel spoke to McCullum.

If we look at the last 4 years from when we started this to where we sit now, I think we've achieved actually a lot of really good stuff. I think we've won a lot of Test matches, we've achieved some really good stuff, and we've missed some opportunities, and particularly in big series and big moments where if we were able to get in, have achieved success in those, then we'd be talking about a really successful era of English cricket. But we know we've missed some of those opportunities and The last couple of months has been about some reflection of what do we keep doing, how do we take what we've built and just start to sharpen a little bit to make us a cricket team that can be a little bit more successful in those big series and those big moments. After that last Test in Sydney, you said that, you know, if you can't steer the ship, maybe there is someone better to do the job. What assurances have you had that you are the man? Steering the ship? Well, I'm sitting here at the moment, I suppose. So that's, you know, from— we're just cracking on now, right? That's kind of certainly where my head's at, is I've got some very, very firm ideas of what I want us to achieve over the next little while, how do we go about achieving it. It doesn't guarantee you that they're going to be successful, but you've, with the benefit of experience over the last 4 years and sometimes when you have some, you know, a period where you get beaten and you get exposed, it can give you some experiences which actually assist you moving forward. And, you know, the lesson that we were taught down in Australia needs to help to galvanise us moving forward, otherwise it was just that, it was a beating, it was a lesson and it was an incredible disappointment. If we're able to make, make good on what we've been taught and what we've gone through, and it makes us a better side— whilst it still hurts, it'll, it'll make us a, a better side moving forward, and that's ultimately what you're after. Do you feel like you've got some work to do to rebuild a relationship with the supporters, to, to reconnect, to rebuild some trust? Look, I think we need to become a better version of the side that we are. I think we need to win some of those key moments. I think we need to be a team which visibly plays with the enthusiasm and the robust style of play which supporters love. I still feel as if we're able to play that positive and aggressive manner, but we just become slightly smarter in some of those key moments and we're able to win some of those significant moments of games which that happen in big series when the pressure is at its highest, then I think we build that trust anyway.

Brendan McCullum talking to our correspondent Stephen Shemmel, and Stephen Finn and Mark Ramprakash and Alistair Cooke are all listening to that. So what's he going to do then, Alistair?

Well, I think from a point of view of the fans and I suppose people watching, it is about winning now. He's been given this second chance. You know, after 3 years of building to— everyone was speaking about that Ashes series and not delivering really in terms of the results and certainly the way they played. So he's been given this chance to do it. I'm intrigued to see how those conversations, which clearly we're not going to be privy to, have gone and how, you know, Stokes and McCullum are going to take this side forward. For 2 and a half years, they had a really clear plan, which is fairly obvious to everyone, about playing this attacking brand of cricket, putting the pressure, you know, walking towards the danger and all that stuff we heard, um, it kind of, uh, every time there's an interview spoken about. And actually now, and then we go back to that last bit of the Ashes where you saw Stokes scoring as slow as 50 ever. We kind of contrast that to when he first started trying to score the quickest 50 ever, show that those two guys weren't aligned at the end of the Ashes series. So, you know, how aligned they are going to be going forward, um, it's going to be intriguing to see. And, and this series over the next three 3 weeks or 4 weeks is going to be so vital to kind of the next 18 months of English cricket because unfortunately there's not much breathing space for the leadership group.

But I'll bring the other 2 in in a moment, but we did the show together with Rob Key. It felt like you were quite frustrated after that interview with Rob and I think a lot of people were. And I sort of hear all the right words, but not necessarily a plan. And is that what you heard again?

Well, I don't think we're ever going to hear that plan publicly before they started playing. That's those conversations you assume they've gone on. I think the frustrating— going back to that interview, the frustrating thing for me was you're hearing Rob Key, who actually, if you speak to Rob about a lot of cricket stuff, there's very little kind of— I don't use that word, and you know what I mean? He just talks— he normally just talks sense, and he's very clear. In that interview, there was a lot not answering any questions and saying stuff you would see— I think you described it, and I think as management talk, and it was because he didn't give us an answer. We're about to find the answer, I believe, now in the next 3 or 4 weeks because, you know, they've spoken a lot, they've spoken a lot about how things will be different, things are going to change without actually telling us that. And but ultimately in 4 weeks' time, if they haven't beaten this New Zealand side, we're all going to be saying, well, what's happened? And unfortunately, that's the nature of the beast they are in. You know, in 4 weeks, if they win this series, we'll say, right, well, they've taken a step forward. If they lose this series, no matter how they play or what they play, it'll be the same old questions. And, you know, suddenly the pressure will be almost, you know, almost unsurmountable to avoid for, you know, the people at the hierarchy. So that's, you know, not often that a New Zealand series, you kind of as important for a group of players as it is now. And this New Zealand side, I think, are a really good side. So if England beat this side, then fair play. If they don't, then it's going to be an interesting Monday night cricket.

It is, yeah. Where are you at with all of this, Stephen?

Yeah, look, I think Cookie's right. This does feel like a huge series. And I think the interesting thing is going to be the first time that they're put under pressure in a game situation, how they react to that. And we sit in the commentary box and we're lucky to have an elevated view of everything from that point of view. And you can see the game developing in front of you, you can see the critical moments. And that's why there's been frustration over the last few years, because when you're sat in that commentary box, you're there thinking, this is a huge moment in the game. And then the team doesn't react quite as you would anticipate in that moment. So I think the really interesting thing is going to be If they lose 3 early wickets, how do the middle order play under that pressure? If there is a big partnership by New Zealand, how do the bowlers and the bowling unit react to that pressure? And I think that will be the true tell in the change of mindset, as opposed to looking at anything bigger. Because I think the premise of what they try and do, try and back players, which they've clearly done over the last 4 years, try and allow those players to be the best versions of themselves, the things that I wholeheartedly agree with, but it has to come with the nuance of recognizing those game situations, and that's going to be the critical thing in this series.

Evening, Mark. I noticed you have your Arsenal tracksuit top on.

I just thought it was appropriate.

A very good evening, everyone. Were you on the— were you— Alice has just shaken his head. Were you at the parade yesterday, or?

I wasn't at the parade. I was watching on. But yes, I'm sort of one of those Arsenal fans where, you know, my glass is very much half full. It's been a fabulous— I know. Well, it seems to be one of those things where, you know, Arsenal aren't particularly liked at the moment, but it was pleasing to get over the line in the Premier League, that's for sure.

You weren't an Arsenal fan when we played, when you were England coach, Ramsay. I thought you were a Man City fan then, weren't you?

Did you really? I don't know. Do you know what shape the football is, Alistair?

What do you want to see from this England? England team then against New Zealand, Mark?

Um, well, I think, um, I mean, I've always felt that this is a very talented group of players actually, and I was quite bullish in my prediction for the winter, uh, in the Ashes. I, I felt England had a very good group of players. They're pretty much at full strength, and I thought they'd go over there and win the Ashes, I have to say. Um, but look, you know, there were, there were— I think the, the philosophy of Brendan McCullum and Robert Kee was brutally exposed. You know, if you go back, you look at the planning, the preparation, the strategy and the mindset, it got brutally exposed by an Australian side that was not at full strength. So what have we learned? He mentioned about reflections. Um, I think Brendan McCullum's evolving as a coach, actually. Well, let's see if he can. I mean, I, I think coming into this summer, we're talking a lot about the coach, and that's unusual. Often it's all about the players. Um, but we're looking at Brendan McCullum, and I think that Robert Key and McCollum have been very bullish in their philosophy for 3, 4 years about how they want players to go out and play. And like Steven said, you know, I'm absolutely all for, you know, trying to take pressure off players, absolutely. But they've come back from that winter and they've spoken about reconnecting with county cricket because often the comments have been quite condescending about first-class cricket in this country. They've got to get a grip of the culture. You know, the optics of the off-the-field stuff was very, very poor with the seaside break for 4 days and Harry Brooks' misdemeanors in New Zealand. So the culture, you know, needs reexamining. But the style of play— Brendan McCullum has spoken about consistent messaging, but I just wonder about his credibility because when you get these key moments, he has said that he wants his team to react in a very aggressive way. You can't, you know, and you don't want doubt in your players. And so it feels like that when there are key moments, if the players try and work through those key moments by doing the basics well, if it's with the ball, bowling maidens, if it's with the bats, batting batters having a partnership where they don't necessarily score quickly, but they have a partnership, you know, that's what great teams have done in the past. Brendan McCullum hasn't really called for that. I think we've got good players. I think they're intelligent, and I hope that they will adapt, and I hope that the coach will evolve his coaching. And, and he is speaking a lot about playing some smart cricket, which he hasn't necessarily done in the past. So I hope that England can do that this summer.

I think that, that point will be interesting, won't it, Stephen, where the players are allowed to play their own game that suits them rather than groupthink?

Yes, and I think every situation, players react differently in situations, don't they? And Harry Brook's response to being 3 down early might be very different to Joe Root's response to being 3 down early. So you want to allow the players the freedom to be able to make their own decisions, I think, because when you're fully committing to something and you know it's your decision as a player, I think that you're in a good space. It's going to be really interesting to see that messaging and how that transpires and how that flows through into what we see with our eyes this week on the field. Because Ramps is right, if you go into a Test match with mixed messaging or second-guessing yourself in a scenario or a situation, then you don't fully commit to what you're doing. And I as a player found that I was a much worse player in everything I did when I wasn't fully committing and fully trusting what I was trying to do.

You look surprised at that, Alistair.

No, not at all. I was intrigued to hear what Stephen Finn said about his— how he's seen— look, the big thing for us, I'm— they spent a long time trying to take pressure off players, trying to tell everyone, I'll just go out and relax and play. But ultimately, you can't avoid pressure. And I think this England side, the fundamental philosophy of that which started off when it first started, it worked for a period. Obviously won 10 out of 11 games, and then suddenly when the pressure came on in bigger moments, in bigger series, there we saw cracks in the side and we saw the side not performing as to their potential. So that philosophy has to change. You have to, you know, it doesn't matter who you are, you know, you cannot avoid that pressure. You have to learn how to manage it, not to say it doesn't exist. So that's another thing I'm intrigued to see how, you know, Brendon, who, you know, who we all like in terms of his operating manner and, you know, his relaxed manner, but there is unfortunately the brutality of any international sport or any elite sport where the pressure and how you handle pressure is so important.

Cookie, you were captain in 2013-14 when we lost the Ashes Down Under.

Thanks for reminding me.

Yeah, sorry mate, I like you to feel good about yourself. You then remained as captain and then 18 months later we went on to win the Ashes. Do you see similarities to you then and how did you like regenerate the team?

Well, I don't see that many similarities in the fact that actually there was a lot of, you know, Andy Flower, you know, and basically all his coaching staff changed. So it was a fresh start. You know, the only person who kind of survived the rubble was me. And about 6 months after that, I was very close to not surviving as we lost to Sri Lanka. We were 1-nil down to India after losing to them on a very green wicket at Lords. And I mean, I dread to see, think what the headlines were saying about me. So I somehow survived that, but I was still given that chance of a fresh start. Well, there's not actually much of a fresh start here for this this side. This is what's so unusual about it. And I spoke about it, the Rob Keep thing, and I'll still say it because we haven't had any cricket. You know, it's not a fresh start. It's the same leadership group. It's the same players, kind of really. Of course, there's the odd change, but it's not that fresh vibe. It's not a new captain, it's not a new coach, it's not a new direction unless they totally change how they then go and play, which then you then start questioning the authenticity of it. So that's what's so intriguing about it. That's why it's so different. And I will go back to another thing though. If they've really learned from their things, this could be, it could be really powerful because not many people get the chance to survive, you know, you know, that you don't survive a 4-1 Ashes and kind of the manner of that very often. But if you have learned those lessons and that group has got tighter and has got stronger and have really, really, really gone back and gone over the analytical bit of it and, and processed it and thought, right, this is how we're going to, we've learned from it. It's such a learn from it and actually take massive steps forward, because you do learn a lot more in adversity, then they could do something very special in the next 18 months.

Let's, uh, let's hear from the man who's expected to open the batting at Lord's on Thursday, Emilio Gay. Uh, he's had a cracking start to this year's County Championship, scored 552 runs averaging nearly 80. I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago when he received his call-up to the squad, so here he is on how he deals with the extra attention he's been receiving.

I really enjoyed it. Um, I've been asked that a little bit about the pressure and stuff of, of that. I just see it as such a positive thing. Like, you know, people are talking about you in a positive way about potentially playing for England. I don't really see that as negative at all. I, like, people would say I maybe try and shut it out, but I don't actively look for it. But when people say that, I just try and really embrace it and think what an opportunity I've got to really try and, um, you know, put my name forward. Um, I've not been quiet about it in previous interviews about pressures and nerves and things like that. But I really just try and embrace all of that because I know that, you know, if you want to play for England, you're going to get pressure and nerves and all of that thrown your way. It's just about how you deal with it.

So you want, you want that, don't you? I mean, you, you sort of, from what I've been reading, you, you relish the— you understand that the nerves are part of it.

Yeah. So this was actually something that a few years ago I got kind of a lot— I had a slightly worse relationship with it, but I try and shut those nerves out for games. Um, whereas now I'm I understand that they're never going to go away, you know, regardless of how good I am, you know, they will never go away. And if I'm going to play at the top level, you are going to be nervous. So the more I can practice being under pressure, or more I can practice being nervous, is something that, like you said, I actually need it, you know. We— a few weeks ago we played Lancs against Jimmy Anderson, you know, and of course I was nervous before that, but like, again, those nerves are exactly what I need to try and be at my absolute best. So, uh, of course there's gonna be times where the nerves get the better of me, but I just think You know, in 3 weeks' time, if I play and walk out to bat at Lord's against New Zealand, I'm going to be nervous. So just trying to get as much practice around nerves as I can is probably the best thing.

Red Bull means a lot to you, doesn't it, as well?

Yeah, I think there's no secret that I do want to play white ball cricket and expand my T20 game. But yeah, I think red ball cricket's the pinnacle. I think Test cricket is the ultimate. Test cricket for England is always something that I've seen as the absolute pinnacle of the game. And so yeah, it is something that I'm a real cricket badger when it comes to Red Bull Cricket. And I just love it. Yeah, there's so many different challenges that come with 5-day, 4, obviously I've played 4-day cricket, but Test cricket's 5 days. Over 5 days, you know, the different challenges that get thrown at you. I just think it's the most rewarding if you're doing well.

So yeah. Emilio Gay talking to me a couple of weeks ago after he received his first call-up, I realized, Mark Ramprakash, that being a good interviewee doesn't make you a successful international cricketer. But I did come away from that thinking, my God, I hope he succeeds here. He was a really impressive lad. And just from everything I've read about him and how he thinks about the game, he is different, I think.

Yeah, look, I agree. He speaks really well, actually. I don't know why, but it's just gone through my mind. You know, I think it's that boxing analogy where, you know, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. But, um, I, I— look, I'm really pleased for Emilio Gay because I think he deserves his selection. He's, he's been picked on evidence. And I remember seeing him get a very good 100 for Northamptonshire a couple of years ago, 2, 3 years ago. Um, and he's evolved. He struck me then as someone who limited his scoring options, had very good concentration, good defense, and played a long innings. Now, of course, a lot of players have had to rethink that style, that orthodox style of batting, to try and get noticed England. He's done that, he's evolved his game. He now puts back to ball when, when the, you know, when the bowler misses, he's on to it very quickly. Um, as you mentioned, he scored a lot of runs and I, I'm really pleased. And I think his selection along with Robinson, you know, they give England players who do know their method, who do play in a little bit more of an orthodox fashion, and I think they could be quite important cogs. As we know, opening batters are absolute gold dust, people who can bat a little bit of time and, and put a platform perform on for the team. And I, I look, I agree, I think at a young age he's recognizing the importance of trying to understand yourself, you know, being emotionally intelligent, understanding when you're under pressure, how am I going to react. And I agree with you, I think, I think he spoke really well about it. Of course, it's not until you've experienced walking out at Lord's in front of 30,000 that you really start to understand what that means, but it sounds like he has a process and a mechanism that's going to help him with those nerves.

What are the challenges, Alistair, for making your England debut as an opener? Well, why are you laughing, Phil?

I'm laughing because actually I don't know him at all, but I had one dealing with him right at the beginning of his career, right at the end of my career, and he asked me all the questions, and I suppose because I'm a Northamptonshire lad, he said, this guy just loves it. He just loves batting, loves cricket. He asked me a question about, oh, do you ever have a burger? And I was like, I was like, of course I do. And he was like, oh God, does that not make you feel bad? I was like, no, it's fine. He was that intense. And I think, but I think sometimes you need that. You need that kind of like real hunger and drive to get better. And that's what I've heard all the things about. You know, you talk about the challenge. The challenge for me, for him now, he's earned the right. I think he's probably the only English opener averaging, I think he's almost, his first-class average is almost 40, which in this day and age, I think is impressive actually with that wobble seam ball. The wickets that they're playing on in particular. So that was the benchmark 20 years ago, but actually now I think there's not many people averaging that. So he scores runs. What I've just laughed at is actually he's spoken about everyone clapping on the back and saying well done. Actually, what has happened is he's got selected and then hasn't batted, you know, just the way it is, you know. And that's another challenge which he'll just have to have. So he's had this date in his mind of this week playing at Lord's, and he'd be so excited. He's deserves his call. I'm glad they've gone for him because he deserves it. But he hasn't— he's played that one game, only batted once, unfortunately didn't score any runs, and then hasn't batted in the game since that, that period because there've been T20 games and then they've got— now they've gone on to an England camp. So the last time he batted was the 15th of May. So he's had, he's had now pretty over, you know, 16, 17, 18 days of not playing, and that would be very unusual for him. So not only is he opening the batting for England at Lord's, which I think will be the hardest place to do it. My debut, I was in West Indies 3 days before I got called up. I flew around the world, the pressure was totally off me, and I did not expect to be playing that game. Suddenly he's had this date in his mind at the best ground in the world to do it. So he's had it tough. It is possible to score runs. Strauss, he scored, you know, 100 on his debut and 80 as well. But, you know, he's certainly— if he gets through this little challenge, you know, and does well in his first game, you know, you look at a guy who's, who would have handled a lot of stuff which he wouldn't have been exposed to and done it well.

When you, when you make your debut as a, whether it's as an opener or as a, or as a batter, and I'll just go back to Mark on this, Vinny, I hope you don't take offense.

I take great offense. All right.

Well, you can, you come in off the back of Mark when you went in and made your debut batting. But how much do you rely on the person at the other end?

Um, yeah, I suppose it depends. It depends. So I think initially, you first and foremost, you're talking about the, the personality of the debutant. And so, you know, if they're fairly extrovert, you know, and they, they, they, you know, when they look in the mirror, they like what they see, um, they won't worry about who's at the other end. Um, and, uh, but equally, you can have some very introverted players, perhaps like Jonathan Trott, Ian Bell, where I think, you know, having a mate at the other end, someone that they've batted with before or know well, you know, that can help because a little bit of a conversation with them can help relax that person. So I think the personality of the player is really important, how they embrace that stage. Look, you know, Mignon Gay is talking about embracing that stage. There was an interesting sort of study done on the England ODI side that went to win the World Cup, and there were a lot of extrovert personalities in that side because they loved the big stage and they saw opportunity rather than risk. And Emilio Gay talks like he, he's embracing it all. Um, so, you know, he may be pretty oblivious to who's at the other end, but I think if it's— it should be Ben Duckett, uh, who's, you know, an experienced player now. And, you know, Ben's— I think Ben's a really good guy, pretty phlegmatic. Um, and they could, they could prove to be a really handy duo because they play in different ways.

Yeah, I just took going back to that debut bit a little bit about who's the other end. I remember Tom Wesley, who made his debut for England, and obviously I'd say, I'd like to say I was quite good friends with Tom. So I hope he walked out to number 3 and hopefully he saw like a reassuring figure at the other end. We batted loads together for Essex and he faced his first, I think he had 4 or 5 balls, and then he came down, you know, at the end of the over and he just couldn't speak. He said, my mouth is really dry, I can't do his accent. He was literally like the whole emotion, like, and that he would never have experienced any of that. So it didn't matter I was at the other end, that was just, you know, even if I'd hoped he would have thought, 'Oh, I like batting with Cookie because we bat a lot together,' and actually made no impact whatsoever. He said the whole— he barely could speak after 4 balls. I think he called for a drink after the next over. But it just shows, like, as Mark said, you just do not know how you're going to react the first time you walk out there. And actually, it's irrelevant who's out there. You like to see a familiar face, but they can't hold your hand and bat that for that first little bit.

No, no, you, Steven, here's your opportunity.

Well, I was left 100 runs short of my maiden Test 100 actually in my first Test match innings. I was 0-0 out from 10 balls and James Treadwell was stumped to leave me stranded on 0-0 out. So another time I was robbed.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

There's this song. When it gets to a bit, the whole place goes— So good, so good, so good! You gotta do the arm bit too. So funny. I love that bit. We know that feeling. 2026, coming soon on Five Live and BBC Sounds.

This is the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio Five Live. What do you make about the recall of Ollie Robinson?

Uh, I think it's a good one. I, I think it's a good one because I think that this attack is screaming out for an attack leader. Um, I've written an article for the BBC website that's going to come out over the next 24 hours or so to kind of thinking what I, or saying what I think the roles that are needed within this bowling attack for them to be successful. And I think that one, that with the retiring of Anderson and Broad and Woakes, I think it's almost 1,600 wickets that aren't going to be out there at all. And I think this attack is screaming out for someone to grab it by the scruff of the neck and be that person that leads. And I think he will be that person in this lineup. I think he's clearly, by his own admission, I think he's matured and feels more ready for this opportunity in an England shirt than he did the last time around, and he made a pretty good fist of it last time, averaging 22. So yeah, I think it's a good call. I'm really intrigued to see how he goes as that leader.

Well, England's new ball bowling in Australia was poor. You know, they didn't know who was going to take the new ball, to be honest with you. They changed it a bit and they didn't have that control, which as a captain you're desperate for that first bit. You know, the new ball is such an inviting vital weapon. And if you're not putting the ball in the right area, you know, you only have to go back to that Travis Head knock a little bit in that second innings at Perth and how many runs he scored square of the wicket. Yeah, he's not an easy person to bowl at, but how many times were we commenting in that series about the new ball bowling? So what another thing was interesting was Stokes taking the new ball for Durham, uh, in that first-class game. Uh, will we see, will we see a little bit of that?

Uh, let's look at this from a New Zealand perspective, shall we? Delighted to say that alongside Stephen Finn and Alex Cook Mark Ramprakash, New Zealand bowler Matt Henry joins us on Five Live Cricket. Thank you very much for talking to us this week. What's the mood like in the New Zealand camp, Matt?

Hey guys, yeah, it's going good actually. It's obviously great to be in Belfast over the last week and I suppose getting back in the whites and kind of just for the guys getting some plans but cemented. So great feeling to touch down at Lord's and get together over the last couple of days.

Nice. So how much difference does just a few days like you've had over there help you heading into this series?

Well, I think for us, we've obviously had a bit of time off in winter and everyone's kind of come from different places. So for us to kind of come together as a collective group and I suppose just get our heads back into that Test cricket, the prep's been there for a while now, but I think once you touch down in the English summer, everyone's excited to be here It's gonna be a great season, well, series.

What kind of England team are you expecting to face? I mean, you will have heard and read and seen and all the noise about everything around this England team since the Ashes series. So what kind of team are you expecting to face?

Yeah, I mean, there's always a lot of talk coming over here when you come into a big series for us and the World Test Championship as well. Obviously England coming off of Ashes, there's been a lot said. So I think for us, it's probably going in with a bit of an open mind. We know that they're still gonna look to take the game on. There's a few fresh faces as well. And I think for us as a New Zealand group, we kind of pride ourselves on adapting to what's played in front of us. And that will probably be no different.

Alistair wants to ask you a question, which is fine. But just before he does, obviously your Test debut came at Lord's. 11 years ago, and we've actually got the commentary of your first ever Test wicket. So before Alistair comes in to ask you a question, I'll just play this.

Henry in, bowls, short ball, Cook swings, is he caught behind? I don't think this is gonna get— he's been given!

If Cook's out, he'll be mortified.

A bouncer wide down leg side, Cook followed it and got either a feather, a bat, or a bit of glove, caught by the keeper. There's enough nothing ball.

It was banged in.

It was well down the leg side.

I mean, that's some guy to hammer you both, really. Yeah, I know. But we'll ignore that and we'll just celebrate the fact that you got him out, Matt. So, Alistair?

Well, I don't think there's DRS on that, uh, chappers. I never hit it. I never hit it. Um, no, hi, Matt. I didn't realize I was your first. I didn't realize I was your first wicket. You got me out plenty of times after that, I'm pretty sure. I don't know what happened the second inning. So I don't have a second into that game.

You did all right.

No, I was just going to actually ask you about the importance of county cricket has played in your career. You know, obviously it's a bit unfashionable, has been unfashionable kind of cricket, but you know, I saw your development, you know, your bowling there, not just bowling long hops to get wickets actually. The last few years you've played a lot of county cricket and you have your— do you feel that's helped your game massively?

It's been massive in my journey, to be honest. Obviously we've had a pretty settled bowling attack for a long time, so I've had to watch a lot of Test cricket on the sides and kind of just getting a bit of opportunity here and there throughout my career. So for me to actually get time playing cricket, it's been huge. So I've always loved coming over here to play county cricket. I've Done it for a long time now. So for my growth, understanding how I bowl, how to be effective in different conditions, it's been massive.

Matt, I've got a question for you. You've played under Brendan McCullum and with him a lot across the course of your career. How do you think he'll be reacting to what's happened and the furore around this England team over the last few months?

Yeah.

Baz is an amazing leader, and I think that's the thing I absolutely love playing for. I think the clarity in how you're approaching cricket and the confidence he gives you is second to none. So I think the way that he'll rally the team together, I think as a collective group, that's probably his strength. He's really good with people and getting the best out of them. So for us, it's definitely one of those things. We're coming here looking forward to playing this English side, but we know that there'll be a strong test unit for when we we take them on in a few days.

How would you view the New Zealand bowling attack as evolving and your role within it? You know, we often look at it from the English perspective and no Anderson and no Broad and there's no Woakes now. So we have to talk about, you know, the leader of the attack is up for grabs here. And now you're back here in England and there's no Southey anymore and there's no Trent Boult.

So how do you view the evolving of your attack and your role within I think it was a really exciting time for New Zealand cricket at the moment. I think you're only as good as the depth in the bowlers you actually have in the squad, and we've had to call on a lot of bowlers over the last couple of years. So I think for us to be able to have a lot of players being exposed in different conditions, get different teams, has been really good for us. So we've got a group here that's maybe not too much international experience, but have been with the group for a long time, so they feel settled in the group. So for us, We've got quite a collective group, and for us, it's just breeding confidence to go into a Test match being clear on a way to create, I suppose, challenges for the batsmen and take 20 wickets.

How much as a touring team do you still take confidence from the win in India, from the 3-0 win in India?

Oh yeah, that was amazing. Yeah, I think for us as a group, Tom had taken over as well, and it was a the start of the World Test Championship. And I think for us, we were— we knew the challenge that lay ahead, and we knew that if we play a brand, and that is probably for us a gritty brand, one that adapts to conditions, and that was something we kind of prided ourselves on. We knew it was going to be tough, but we'd just been on a tour in Sri Lanka, which was pretty brutal, to be honest. But we kind of took a lot of lessons from there but stuck to the core process of what we were actually trying to achieve and actually got better at that. We didn't throw the throw it out the water. We actually kind of grew from what we learned in Sri Lanka. So that was probably for us the starting point. And then from there, we'd kind of, yeah, I suppose you do take momentum and confidence that you can do some pretty cool things.

Do you relish that gritty brand, as you described it?

Yeah, I think as Kiwis, we like to, you know, go about our work. And I think we're a small nation, but I think from us coming over here, it's more about actually adapting. I think we're a good bunch of problem solvers, and you come over here, we'll have different conditions everywhere we play. Probably the style of cricket as well could be different to what we've played in the past as well. So for us, it's actually taking it in and making the decisions out there and not— hopefully not being, hopefully ahead of the game.

Matt, thank you very much for joining us. Go well.

No worries. Cheers, guys.

Thanks for having me. New Zealand bowler Matt Henry with us on Five Live Cricket. Do you think they do get underestimated? Beated New Zealand, Mark?

Without doubt. Um, I mean, I was just reflecting on probably one of the lowest moments of my England career was 1999 when New Zealand came over, and we had high expectations of beating New Zealand. We were favorites, and you know, they seem to revel in this underdog tag. Um, but actually, and obviously they've got a small population and a small pool of players, um, but they are very skillful. In '99, they had some fantastic players— Chris Cairns, Dion Nash for Tory, uh, was, was bowling well. And it will be the same again this tour. Um, you know, they, they are— and it's interesting, isn't it, to make that comparison. We mentioned about Brendan McCullum is almost in some respects, uh, he's at his style as a player was not typically Kiwi because we always talk about New Zealand sides adapting well, making the best of what they've got even though they may be slightly limited, but actually their skill level is very, very high. Um, and but Brendan McCullum has sort of coached in a way that's not typically Kiwi. Um, and I suppose he, he looks for his teams to play in a similar way that he played as a batsman, which was really go after it, you know, live for today, don't worry about tomorrow. Um, so I, I think, um, uh, I, Alistair said it earlier, and I think if, if, um, if England win this series, and I have high expectations that they will, that England will play good cricket because I think they've got a talented group, but They have to be at their best to win this series, no question about it.

It's interesting, isn't it? Because I suppose the wider sporting audience think, well, if England beat New Zealand, well, it's New Zealand. Lose to New Zealand, it's like, well, they're not one of, you know, it's not Australia or India. It makes them very difficult opponents with perception, if nothing else, Steven.

It does, but I think if you know anything about cricket at all, you'll recognize that New Zealand always go far in white ball world tournaments. They've held the World Test Championship mace, which England have got nowhere near. They've not even played in a final. So when you look at it on the evidence of the last 10 years of international cricket, you'd have to say New Zealand have overperformed and outperformed England in that regards. And I'm just looking at their squad here and something quite striking that Matt Henry said there, they revel in the gritty nature of the way that they play. Play. And you look down at Latham, Blundell, Williamson, Darrell Mitchell, Glenn Phillips, and their bowling attack, Henry, Jameson, O'Rourke. This is a world-class cricket team that's coming over. So if England at all underestimate them, and I don't think they will for the record, they'd be very foolish to do so. And especially that bowling attack. I'm really excited about watching Will O'Rourke bowl. He's humongous. He's my height. He's got an awkward action, but he's blooming quick. And if he gets role in conditions that could be favorable this week at Lord's, he could be a real handful.

Alistair Cook, Stephen Finn, Mark Ramprakash with us on Five Live Cricket. England Women have their last match before the T20 World Cup. They take on India at Taunton. The series is level at 1-all. Delighted to say England all-rounder Danny Gibson joins us now. I know you've got the game, but are you chomping at the bit for the actual tournament to start?

Yeah, definitely. I think it's really exciting, obviously, to have a home World Cup. So hopefully get a game in tomorrow and then it will lead us into good stead for the World Cup.

What have you learned as a group so far from the warm-up matches?

Yeah, they're obviously very different teams. I think it's like learning how to adapt to— we're going to obviously play a lot of different teams in the World Cup, so just learning what works well against different teams and how we want to go about defending and attacking. So I think it's just been great to get out there as a group after a quiet winter and and just be able to explore a few new different things.

And also, I suppose, even in that New Zealand series, which you won 2-1, games can fluctuate very quickly in these formats, can't they?

Yeah, I think that's the best thing about T20, like, anyone can win on the day, so you've got to turn up and showcase what you can do. But I think the series against New Zealand was obviously great, and then to get the win against India the other day to make it a series decider tomorrow, it's been exciting.

What, as a squad, what have you talked about with it being a home World Cup and the different, I don't know, pressures that that brings?

Trying not to think about that too much, I guess, thinking more of like how we can inspire the younger generation, and obviously like the Red Roses and the Lionesses showcased how good it can be to do well at a home World Cup and in just a World Cup in general. So I think we're just trying to take inspiration from that and just enjoy it. Like, not many people get to do this opportunity, so just enjoy it as possible.

Dani, from a personal perspective, how good does it feel for you to be fully fit and fulfilling your role in the team on the eve of World Cup?

So, so much nicer. It's been a tough year, but yeah, it's just nice to be able to contribute with all three facets and just get back out there in an England shirt and just feel part of it again. It was a tough time being on the sideline and watching on my sofa, but it's just so nice to be back and the group's been great. So yeah, it's just very just a really happy place to be in.

Um, you were— when England won the 50-over World Cup in, in this country, so what was it, 2017? You, you were 16 then, yeah?

Yeah.

So what, what are your memories of that tour?

Um, I hadn't actually watched many of the group games. I don't even think I watched the semi, but I remember watching the finals at home with Mum and Dad, and I was just—

you're a bit— you're a big-time glory hunter, aren't you? Then don't bother with the group games or semi straight to the final?

I was just busy at school.

Very good. Was it GCSE year?

Yeah, I must have been revising away.

So what did you remember about the final then, watching with your mum and dad?

I think I just remember like the crowd being so full and like just like absolutely buzzing, and then just to see them celebrate and have a home World Cup win like that, it was just inspiring. And I was just like, I want to do that.

Um, and now, and now to be in that situation, is that slightly— is it surreal? Is it, is it as expected? What is it?

Um, yeah, I would say surreal. Like, obviously chose cricket and wanted to keep pursuing that, and I've got here now. And I think just being able to be the best teammate that I can be for England, I think that's just what I try to focus on.

Um, Charlotte Edwards said last week she wasn't sure what the team will look like for the opener against Sri Lanka next Friday. Is Is that a good position to be in within the squad?

Yeah, I think you want all 15 players to be fighting for a spot, and I think it's great that everyone is, and you don't know where you sit, I guess, because we can create a team out of any of us, and I think that's like a really exciting thing. So hopefully, um, we can just pull together and she'll pick the best team that she thinks on the day, and it works.

Does it crank up the tension at all?

Um, not really. I think that was like— it was obviously tense for selection for the World Cup, but I think now you're in it, like everyone's a little bit more chilled. But I think, yeah, I've selected the night before, would be a bit nervy, but that's just, that's just professional sport, I guess.

Have you spoken about what success looks in this tournament for you girls? Like, yeah, first time you probably haven't gone into it as favourites, a home one, you know, with the strength of some other sides, but with it, we're still with a good chance of winning.

Yeah, I think there's not been much chat, kind of what we expect. I think that's maybe looking a little bit too far ahead. I think we just want to take it game by game and and just do the best that we can and inspire the younger generation and just enjoy it and hopefully get some wins.

I know you've been asked this so many times, are you fed up of being called the most expensive English player in The Hundred or are you relishing it?

Not relishing it, obviously like honor, but yeah, it wasn't the night, like I think the emotions of the day, I was absolutely like ecstatic and so good for women's cricket, but I think the week after I was just coming back as an all-rounder in Pretoria in our overseas camp And then to feel pressure of, I need to perform now in front of all my teammates and show that I'm kind of worth it. I felt a bit like imposter syndrome. It was actually quite a tough week post it, but I think obviously, what an honor to be able to be in this position and for the women's cricket. But yeah, it wasn't the funnest week.

No, because that is the other side of it, isn't it? In that it does— the way that this system works now, I mean, even the old system, I suppose, with the salary bands, it can increase the pressure on you.

Yeah, massively. Like, I think obviously going into it, there'll probably be a bit of chatter around when The Hundred is actually on as well. And the thing is trying to like take yourself away from the price, I guess, and just be like, they've picked me because they want me in the team and for my cricket, and just trying to focus on that and not let the outside noise affect me.

Thank you very much for joining us, Dani. Appreciate it. Dani Gibson, England all-rounder. It does, it It does, Mark, doesn't it, actually ramp up the pressure on her, that title?

Well, it's new ground, isn't it? And I suppose, again, it's how you view it. But because there will be so much talk about it, and women's cricket has grown, the sort of participation has grown, which has been fantastic, but the wages have grown, and also the publicity around the game. And that's something that the women are having to get used to. And, and so the, the headlines around this price tag, um, although you may try, uh, to, to not read the headlines, um, probably your best mate will ring you up and, and say, oh, did you see what so-and-so said? And it's coping with that. And for a young person, you know, that's not easy. And you need good people around you to help you, I think, handle that, um, and get back to, as Danny said, you know, concentrating on the cricket.

Because actually But there is, as long as idiots like me, Finney, bring it up in an interview, then the more people are aware of it and then you turn up at a ground and go, "Right, show us what you've got." Well, you're very unkind to yourself, chappies. Ah, so, well, I thought I'd say it before the hundreds of people on the tech side.

Well, it was on my mind. Look, it is, and I think Ramps is right there, kind of navigating lots of things at the same time and for Dani herself, She alluded to it with the question I asked her there. She's had a really tough time of it in the last year or so with big injuries and only playing as a batter in The Hundred last year. And you're trying to navigate coming back from an injury and make sure that you can be the best version of yourself out there on the pitch. And then someone slaps that price tag on you, which, which is an honor, but it does create that pressure as well. So it will be fascinating to see how she deals with it, but she seems very level. She's gone through that unpleasant week after you find out you're being paid £190,000, you know, I'd be gutted as well. I think it can only be a good thing and yeah, the Hundred tournament this year will be great.

Speaking of pressure, or maybe a lack of pressure, it's difficult to tell with him really, the IPL came to a close. The star of the tournament, the MVP of the tournament, the 15-year-old Vaibhav Suryavanshi who scored 776 runs at a strike rate of over 237. 2 or 3 of his innings had to be seen to be believed. And the prize for being the MVP is a car that he can't drive for 3 years because he isn't— you've got to be 18 to be able to drive it. So he's still 3 years away from that. I mean, he's backing up the hype around him, Alistair, if nothing else.

Mills.

Well, he's doing more than that.

Uh, well, exactly.

I mean, it's, it's like, even if you take the age out of it, let's just take the age out of it before we even start, it's, it's just extraordinary. You know, he's, he's a left-handed batter. I mean, that's about the only similarity I can think about me and him, to be totally honest with you. Um, like, I, I can't really even speak about it, like, because I just don't know how he Does it? Because there's just— he has taken T20 batting to a level which, at such a young age, which is just extraordinary. Like, I was watching a little bit of the clips of him in a net session, just like making Jofra Archer look like he's bowling underarms. And it's just— and it's not— it doesn't look premeditated. That's what I can't get my head around. I can't get my head around. He can— seems to hit— was he at 60?

You are genuinely watching him, and as someone who— you can't get your head around it. You can't.

I don't know how he does it, Chappies. And the fact that you watch some of his sixes, and it's— I know we get— it's not just about hitting sixes, but in T20 cricket, it's quite useful, you know. Like, he's faced— I don't know, he's faced two— how many balls here? I'm trying to work out the maths. Not that many, and he's hit 66. One in four balls, I think, is he's hitting sixes. The sixes aren't just clear the legs, slogging into the same area, like top, top edge sixes over the keeper. Like, if you actually watch some innings, like, you bowl, you bowl that kind of good length, you know, a Stephen Finn classic, you know, first, first couple of overs, I'm gonna hit the pitch really hard and give, and give the batsman as little width as I can possibly do at 90 miles an hour. And he just carves you either over the point for six, or if you get it slightly straighter, it hits you over square leg for six. And he's not just doing it to, you know, to what you would say domestic bowlers, because it's a domestic tournament. He's doing it. He's like destroyed Pat Cummins. He destroyed Bumrah. It is extraordinary. Where his career goes, I can't quite work out. And I can't quite work out what his next price thing is going to be in the auction or whatever. What Rajasthan do you just— yeah, I am chappers. I am lost for words. Not great for a pundit. Extraordinary. And, and yes, watch, just watch him. I think I just marvel at it, actually. I marvel at it because it could not be further from what you're trying to teach. Like, I do coach a little bit, so under-12s and under-13s and a bit younger, and one of my elements is if the ball's just on the top of the stump, whack it over for 6.

But Mark, look, sporting history is littered with prodigies who never then quite make it. So you're all, I am always slightly wary of going huge on certainly someone who is 15. And yet it's nigh on impossible. It's nigh on impossible not to go with the hype with them.

Well, the cricket landscape has changed. So what's gone is gone because he has made it. He's top run scorer in the biggest domestic competition that there is in the world. It's phenomenal. His first ball he faced from Bumrah went straight back over Bumrah's head 6. He made Pat Cummins look like a club bowler. Um, I watched his 100 against England Under-19s. It was a fabulous innings, and it— there is thought about it. I mean, it's phenomenal hitting, but it's hitting in areas where there aren't fielders a lot of the time. Um, so he, he's aware of the field placings, and he's aware of the tactics of the game, and yet he's able to adjust his stroke play. He is a phenomenon. He— I did read recently that he wants to play Test cricket, and that his father has always told him that Test cricket is the biggest test. So that will be absolutely box office to see whether he can conquer that arena.

It must be very, very quickly, see, it must be so hard as a bowler. You must imagine you're Pat Cummins and running up thinking, I cannot get smacked by a 15-year-old here. I cannot get smacked by— oh, I've been smacked by a 15-year-old.

Well, it's happened to everyone. At least you wouldn't be the only one that he's done it to this season. But yeah, I'm with Cookie. You just marvel at it. And, and the numbers, aside from being him being 15, to— for someone to have one innings where their strike rate is 237, it's an amazing effort.

You can't wait. A lot of people don't have innings at strike rate, I can ensure that, Steven.

Yeah, and but he's done it through an entire season of the IPL against the best players under the biggest pressure. He's a phenomenon.

That's it for this episode of the TMS Pod. Thanks to Steven and Mark and Alistair. And Test Match Special will bring you England's first Test match of the summer against New Zealand at Lord's on Thursday. Coverage begins on Sports Extra from 10:25. Test Match Special returns for the third and deciding T20 between England's women and India live on Sports Extra Tuesday evening from 6:15.

1998, watching Scotland score at a World Cup. I think that's why I fell in love with football. Here comes Collins and it's into the net! Scotland are level, it's going nuts! What makes the World Cup so special is purely because it's a global tournament.

It brings the whole world together.

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