First Ashes Test Review

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You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast. Two days on from Australia winning that first Test in Perth, former England coach, current Sussex head coach Paul Farbrace, former Australian batter Simon Katic, former Australian wicket keeper and the current Durham head coach Ryan Campbell are all with us. And when this show was originally scheduled we might have been looking ahead to a nail biting Day five. We might have been reflecting on the fact that the four days had only just finished. Have you ever Simon, in your history seen anything like what you saw in Perth?

Hi Mark. No, I haven't seen anything like it. I think we're going to have to rebrand Test cricket. I don't think it can be called test cricket anymore because what we witnessed was on anabolic steroids. It was unbelievable. I still think everyone here in Australia is shell shocked as to the fact that it only lasted two days because there was a lot of talk about 19 wickets falling on day one and this Perth Stadium pitch being, you know, too spicy. But it had nothing to do with the wicket. The wicket was brilliant and I think we saw evidence of that when Australia batted in that second innings to be able to chase the runs two down. That summed it up. No team really was able to get past the sort of 40 over mark. I think Australia might have just crept over that in the first innings. But in Australia if you can wear them new ball down, you'll be able to score quickly from that sort of 40 to 80. Overmark and England weren't prepared to do that in both innings and they paid the price.

I would imagine a lot of media in Australia has never had to pivot as quickly as they did before the end of day one or at the end of day one, and then at the end of day two on day.

One, I think a few of us jokingly said that it looked like both teams had tee times booked for Sunday. And we all know that Uzma Kwadrid had his fill of 54 holes of golf leading into the Test. But I think it was just said tongue in cheek. But, you know, realistically, it was just amazing to think that the Test was all done and dusted in two days. Day one, there was a lot of nerves around due to the hype of the Ashes and the buildup, and there was some inexperience out there. We obviously had a couple of debutantes for Australia and there was a number of players from England that hadn't played a lot of Test cricket in Australia. So I think that contributed to day one. But then by day two, to think that England were in a position at lunch where they were pretty much in control of the Test and then just to throw it away the way they did with the bat after lunch, though they'll rue that for the rest of this series, I think.

Well, we'll come on to that then. I suppose my point there, Ryan as well, is there was a lot of discontent around the Australians after the, after the, the first day, Usman Khawaja in particular, and what he had done and how he wasn't, and then within. And that would have been a real opportunity, I suppose, to work on that fragility from an England perspective, and we'll come on to that. But my point being, things could change very quickly. So although this is, my God, what on earth did England manage to do in those first two days? It can change quickly.

Yeah. Good evening, everyone. I. I think if you went through everyone's WhatsApp groups, anyone who was following cricket over the, over the time would probably summed up Test cricket. You know, my English mates were giving it to me after a little while and I was giving it back and then it all turned around. But look, if you look at the history of the McCollum and Stokes era, if they had one criticism, it's been, have they thrown away winning positions in a number of Test matches, or maybe when they're on top, just, you know, a couple of easy wickets and suddenly let the, the opposition back in? And I guess that will get magnified, so to speak. After, after what happened. But look, I'm, and I'm going to go in early here with, you know, being the Aussie, but I'm actually going to say England can't panic like they can. I don't want to say controlled half the test match but like Simon had said, there were massive parts of that game that you thought England were going to win this game. So they have to take some positive out of that. Yes, of course it went pear shaped in, in a really rapid succession but we always knew if you want to bat in Perth and you want to play on the up in your corridor, mate there it is an absolute recipe for disaster. And the one thing that I would say that I reckon hasn't been given enough kudos, so to speak, Scott Boland was the one he got hit at six and, or six and a bit and over in that first inning. Probably bowled a little bit too full, but that's learning. You talk about learning from your mistakes. He literally was a different bowler in the second. It was the bowler we always expected him, little bit shorter, more consistent, a little bit wider and he stuck in there. So yeah, I guess Australia learnt from the first day it England didn't and that's what, you know, I guess the hierarchies will have to sit back and work out why.

And that Paul, is the common criticism comple over recent series and this era.

And we, you know, we, you and I chatted about that on Saturday evening, you know, that, that for my criticism and it's exactly what the two guys have been talking about. England didn't learn. Australia did. You know, Boland, you know, Ryan's absolutely right. Boland didn't bowl particularly well first innings but second innings he bowled that heavy length outside of stump and said to the England batters, come on then if you want to whack me for four, hit me for four. And you know, we have been in this situation before Lords. When Nathan Lyon limped off in the home test series, you know, that that was another one of these great examples where we just don't seem to be able to be smart enough. You know, I love watching this England team play. I, I, you know, I went to bed the end of day one thinking if we could just bat, you know, bow them out quickly the next morning and bat for two sessions we got a great chance and at lunchtime, 99 lead nine wickets in and you think all you got to do fellas is bat through to te. If you bat through to te and we may be four down, we've Got a great chance winning this game. You know, there was so many poor shots in the second innings, you know, and as a staunch Englishman that wants England to win every single game, it was very frustrating and there's times where it almost borders on arrogance and that's when it becomes frustrating for us watching the game.

Can I, can I ask you about all three of you are successful coaches? The role of a coach when your team is batting and look this, and you know, you can talk to me about your experiences, whether it be in franchise cricket or county cricket or test, whatever it may be. But, but when, when you see the wobble, when you think, hang on a minute, you know, we've got, we have 100 run lead, we're one down and then we lose a couple of quick wickets. It strikes me that in football, you know, if I'm watching Everton, Manchester United at the moment, I can see both the coaches in the technical area. If they want to get their players to do something, they can do it very clearly with gesturing or even, you know, focus. You put your, you know, each index finger to your temple or calm down. Do you know what I mean? But invariably, and I would say I would have seen this with all three of you. You sit there impassively as a coach in cricket the majority of the time, often behind sunglasses. Can you, Would you interfere to get a message out there going, for crying out loud, we've just lost two quick wickets. We don't want to lose four for 11 or five for 11. Let's just calm it down. Can you. Do you. Because it doesn't seem to happen.

Yeah, go, go. Farry, you're the genius coach.

No, no, no. Crikey blimey. I'm, I'm not sure I've ever been described as a genius in any form. It's a really difficult one. And Simon and Ryan, you know, they're fantastic players. I wasn't a great player, right. But these two will know they're. In international cricket, you're not going to be giving too many instructions to your team when, when you're losing a couple of wickets because you don't want to be seen to add into the, the panic within the dressing room, you know, and you know, when things are starting to turn, people go quiet. You know that that's the first sign in any dressing. The dressing goes quiet, the viewing area goes quiet. And sometimes you've got people inside watching, sometimes people outside watching. And it's very difficult as a coach because you don't want to suddenly march up to the Next bloke in and grab him by the arm and say, you can't get out. You know, that's. You just can't do that. So it's. I think sometimes you're trying to carry on as normal as the coach and give that calmness. I mean, you look at Brendan McCollum, you know, he's sitting with his feet up. He's, you know, he's relaxed in his chair and he's trying to say to lads, it's okay, don't worry. And, you know, you're relying on people like Root, you know, who's played a lot of cricket, to understand the situation. And he was one of the three that really gave their wickets away. So, you know, if I went up to Simon, you know, when he's next in and said, come on, mate, you got to get your head down and get stuck in there. I mean, if you. He probably would tell me where to go and sit back down and park myself again.

Well, Simon.

Oh, look, I don't disagree with any of that. I think it's spot on. I think the reason we're seeing what we're seeing and we're seeing it consistently, don't forget, this hasn't just happened to Perth. We saw it at the oval when India, when India won that Test, when England should have put them away, and Harry Brook was, you know, completely dominating that Test match in the second inning. So I think the reason it's happening so often is because the rhetoric remains the same. It's always doubling down, it's always playing this aggressive cricket. And that's fine when the conditions are in your favor, but the conditions weren't in England's favor. And that's where I think a lot of commentators and past players, both English and Australian, are getting frustrated with this England team is because they play some really good cricket at times, as Cambo said earlier. But the problem is they don't respect the conditions when they're against them. And that was plain and obvious to see in Perth a number of times with the bat in both innings. And if they want to go against, you know, the traditions over 100 odd years of test cricket, they're going to keep coming up with egg on their face. Because there's a reason partnerships work in Test cricket and there's a reason why the old adage of keeping the opposition out there longer than you have to be works. Because that's what Test cricket's all about. You wear the bowlers down. They had a great opportunity. No Pat Cummins, no Josh Hazelwood, and they blew it. You know, all they had to do was try and wear Mitchell Stark down. They had a debutante that Nathan Lyon, who the skipper wasn't really going to bowl. And then all they had to do was get through probably Scott Boland in that second innings. And as Campbell rightly said, he learned, England didn't. And the other thing that stood out was the Australian batters learned. They learned from day one when they got exposed.

But, Simon, so you're sitting. You are England head coach. You are sitting there on that balcony. You know all of this. You can see what's happening in front of your eyes and yet you wouldn't get a message out there.

Well, the message obviously was keep putting them to the sword, because that's what we keep witnessing. And even after the Test match, they keep doubling down saying, no, we're going to keep playing this aggressive cricket, even though they've just been humiliated in two days when they were bossing the Test match at lunch on day two. So until that mindset changes and they can say all they want about the fact that the players that, you know, there was a. I think a comment from Ben Stokes in the press afterwards saying that, you know, the players that played best for England were the ones that took the game on. Well, no, that's not the case because if they had played well, they would have got 100 plus. But they didn't. They all got starts and they wasted those starts because they wanted to keep being aggressive to balls that weren't there. Ben Duckett played really well, but then obviously comes undone against good length deliveries. Same with Ollie Pope, same with Joe Root and same with Harry Brooke in the second innings. Harry Brook looked unbelievable in the first innings and then to come out and play the shot he did in the second innings reeked of a bloke that was starting on 50 again.

All of us as coaches, you know, I don't want to sit here and say, oh, coaches, we don't do anything. I think what would have happened was.

Don'T spoil it, right? Don't spoil it.

Come on.

I also, Ryan, I wasn't suggesting that. I wasn't going that extreme, mate.

I was playing homescapes. When we were in the middle of.

The game.

The conversations generally would happen at the end of an innings, you know, when the guys are sitting down and generally you're trying to get a feel and trying to, you know, get the players to get their opinion across what's going on, what are the conditions like? Because you can watch but you're not out there, you're not batting. So you're just sort of sitting there going, okay, so what are you guys seeing? What's the length they're going to do? How is our style of play going to be? Who are the major threats? So I'm sure, look, I'm not in the England change room, but I would have thought at those breaks, that's when you're having your conversations about how you're going to go and what you're going to do.

Campbell, that's where you're so right. You know, I think at lunchtime, you're 99 in front, your nine wickets still in hand, you're only one down. That's where the conversation would take place. That's where, you know, you let the lads come off the field. You know, as a coach, I reckon you'd have a wander round, you chat to the two in. What's it like out there? What lengths have they changed anything? You, you might have had a chat with your bowlers about the great place to bowl, what's a good spot to bowl? And. And you probably have two minutes where you say, listen, fellas, I reckon the next session looks like this. This is what I'm thinking. What are you seeing? What are you thinking in the middle? That that's. I reckon that's what we would all do. And, and you would like to think that whether it's Brendan or whether it's Marcus Treskothic or Stokesie himself or even the batter in, you know, one of them would have probably said, look, fellas, this is where we're at. This is the state of the game. But the focus and the word that you two have both used is this double down on the over attacking. It's almost, you know, that's where I get frustrated because I know how good these players are. I know they're so close, you know, and, and they really. This is a great opportunity for us as a team with the bowling attack. We've wanted for 20 years to go to Australia. We finally got that bowling attack and yet our batters just. And the other word that Simon used is the lack of respect. The lack of respect for the game and the lack of respect, as you've said, campo for the ball bouncing. You can't just drive on the. Up in Perth. It's just an imposs.

What was the. What was the difference? Simon, then with Travis Head's innings was.

Measured and I think everyone thought because he ends up with 100 off 60 balls whatever, that he's gone out and Played basketball. And yes, there's an element of that, but it wasn't in the early part of his innings. I think you go back and look at his first 20 balls, it was measured. Same with Jake Weathero. They both played attacking cricket, but they were attacking. When they were leaving the ball, they were getting in good positions. I think these what the Australians did really well, and I think the guys alluded to it earlier. The Australian players learned from day one. They made some mistakes. They. They gifted Ben Stokes some easy wickets late on day one to allow England back in the Test. And then in the second innings, they ambushed England. England thought those same lengths, which I think the pitch map showed 66% of balls in the first innings. Australia were playing on the back foot. So Australia came prepared for that. And I think we saw it from all the Australian batters that batted in that second innings. They were ready and waiting. Obviously, Travis Head was the standout, but even Marner Slab of Shane, when he came out to bat, he was a different beast in the second innings. Yes, the pressure was off him, but he came out proactive, ready for that shorter length delivery that all the England players were doing on day one. And I think Australia deserves some credit for learning the lessons from day one and then applying themselves really well to get the victory.

The other thing I suppose I'd ask all three of you as coaches and Ryan maybe go first on this, is that at what point does sticking to your principles become being stubborn, doubling down, being so unwilling to change that you end up in a spiral.

Yeah, it's a tough one because let's be honest, they've purposely built this team to win in Australia. Everything they've done, like. And people sort of said to me going into this Test, oh, well, but Australia, they're all old and, you know, they haven't planned for the future and all that. And that may be the case. But if you have a look back at the two and a half years that basically, whilst England were rebuilding and building this, you know, very, very, very exciting cricket team, Australia were the number one Test team in the world. They were also winning World Cups, they lost the World Test Championship, but they're the second in the world, so they've always been the number one. So they've played the way they wanted to play because they were winning. And I guess England had the opportunity to set themselves to say, okay, what's the most important thing? Cause it's not winning the World Test Championship, I don't think, because if they wanted to win that, they got to bowl the overs, otherwise you keep getting docked all your points. But then, you know, they've built everything for this, so they're not going to back down from that now. And I just think that's why I sort of said at the top of the show, I don't think you can panic now. Yes, it didn't go to plan, but they got to stay calm. And if that's, this is the way they're going to play, Brendan McCollum and Ben Stokes, at the end of it will go, you know what? We've. People have lost the last 10, 15 years in Australia. We did it our way and if you win it or lose it, we're going to do it our way and we're going to try it. And if it doesn't win, then, you know what, that's us done.

Yeah, I agree with Campbell, because, you know, there's a certain amount of, you know, you can't be swayed by public opinion, you can't be swayed by the former greats, you know, and that's why I admire Ben after the game saying, no, we're going to stick to what we do, you know, and everything I've read from Brendan, he's saying, this is, this is how we're going to do it. We're going to stick to it. Because, you know, we've gone to Australia so many times in recent years, we haven't had the attack, we haven't played the positive cricket and we've been done and dusted in nine days. Well, I hope if he does, if he keeps going, two days, it'd be six days. So that'll be our record in 2017. But, you know, I admire the fact that, that they have a way, if they want to play, they've got a way. They want their team to be, you know, their selection, you know, you could say their selection. They're looking after people and keeping them in when perhaps they shouldn't be.

Well, Paul, I love that. Do you?

Yeah, yeah, well, I do. Because what they're trying to create is they're trying to create this feel that if you're going to play positive attacking cricket, you can't have a revolving door selection. You've got to have a consistency, you've got to back people. And I get people saying, you know, Zach Cawley has been extremely lucky to play 60 test matches. I get that. But as Cambo just said, they've kept him in and they've been working towards. They think that he's the sort of player who score runs in Australia. And you know, I hope that he's intelligent enough to work out that he can't keep driving on the front foot and he's certainly able to do that in Brisbane. He might have to pay a little bit off the back foot and you know, perhaps play a little bit square of the wicket. But you know, I actually admire the fact that England are trying to do something different. They're trying to win in Australia, which is a tricky place to win.

The top six in Perth was the same as in Pakistan over three years ago. I mean, you can have it every which way, can't you? God, back in the day I did enough programs of England chopping and changing and you know. Yeah, absolutely, you know, and you have one good performance in the oval in a final summer test and you're on the. And you're on a winter tour. That's how it used to be, wasn't it? However, however that top six is the same as it was in Pakistan over three years ago. Faith can also create what a clique, a complacency, knowing that you aren't going to lose your place. And also I'm wondering Paul as well whether it also then creates. You can only play one way if you're going to get into that England top six, you know, and if you don't buy into it, you aren't going to be selected. So you have to buy into that ethos. So it, it does become cliquey, doesn't it?

Yeah, in one way it does. On the other hand, you know, I think Stokes has taken a leaf out of Harry Morgan's book. You know, when we were very successful one day side once he picked his 11, that team stayed the same forever, every series. And he hardly changed it because his view was you want people to play you the way you want the team to play. If you do that, you stay in the team. You know, Campo will tell you, I mean he's got Alex Le, pardon me, at Durham, who is a fantastic player, was in the England team, he was learning how to play international cricket and for whatever reason he gets jettisoned out and you know, Dom Sibley is another one. Went in, came out. Sibley's improved enormously. You know, he's a fantastic player. There's a lot of players in English cricket, but we all know in our counties and you speak to all of the county coaches and players, there are certain people who are never going to play because they don't fit this current way of playing. Now if things go pear shaped in this ashes and it changes that could all change with a new selection and a new coach. And you know that that could change quickly. But I admire the fact that they are sticking with their players and not having a revolving door. You know, you mentioned earlier in someone like ramps, you know, ramps probably got dropped by England about 19 times. Graham Hick would have been the same. So you can't. You can't play this way, that England are playing and then not back players to play. And I admire them, and I admire the fact that they are a bit stubborn. They don't worry about the optics and all they care about is having a team that plays the way they want to play and plays exciting cricket. Ideally, we'd love them to win a few big series.

Paul Farbrace, Ryan Campbell, Simon Katic with us on the Ashes here on five Live cricket. So Zach Crawley, with a pair, became the first England opener since Michael Atherton in Johannesburg in 1990 to have a pair. How. What does he do mentally, Simon, between now and Brisbane?

Well, it sounds like they're not going to play in Canberra in the pink ball game down there. So, look, that's their prerogative. Obviously, the conditions in Canberra are completely different to what they're going to get at the Gabba next weeks. And given it's a pink ball day, night, Test, you know, Mitchell Stark's record in that is outstanding. I think from Zach Crawley's perspective, it's all around shot selection. I mean, he can play, it's just that, you know, he can get runs and big runs when he bats well, but obviously when he doesn't, it can look ugly. So I think when you're starting a Test match like you did the other day, you need to respect the conditions a lot more than he did in both innings. You would have thought in the second innings, he probably would have learned from the first innings, know that Mitchell Starks gonna probably go out wider to him and make him cover, drive and give him that opportunity early on. But that's where you just have to let Mitchell start, come to you and, and let balls go and be prepared to, you know, grind it out for a few hours to get used to the pace and bounce before you start firing a few shots. So I just think for him, it's going to come down to the mentality. But the danger is, if he's being told, we want you to stay and keep being aggressive, well, that might not work in those conditions. And I guess that's probably the. The big thing from this England hierarchy is that, you know, a lot of Australian guys Here can't believe that they haven't adapted because, you know, a lot of our guys have played in these conditions their whole career. So we have a pretty good idea of these conditions having grown up here. And, you know, the fact that England want to keep doubling down and playing their way, that's admirable. But ultimately, some of their players in the middle order will be better suited coming out against the 40, 50 overall ball. I'd love to see what Harry Brooke can do if he walks to the crease with Australia with a softball and the ball's 40 overs old. And that's where, as the guys rightly said earlier, there are a number of very good openers in England in county cricket. I mean, how many guys would get 59 tests averaging 30 in Australia? Back in the day, you would. You wouldn't have even got probably five tests if you average 30. So he's had a golden run. He's got to make the most of it because I reckon there's some decent players in England that deserve a chance.

So what, what does he have to work on Ryan between now and whenever he walks out to bat in Brisbane? Bearing in mind it is the pink ball.

Well, the number one thing is his mindset. You know, you can't buy mental toughness off a shelf. So, you know, for the next, you know, 10 to 12 days, I think, you know, he's going to cop it from everywhere. Every time he picks up a paper or whatever. He knows that as a player, you know, you'd got to get off the mark that first ball of your face or, you know, just get, get around it. I don't think he'll go overboard with his preparation. I think he'll hit lots of balls like they, they. Most of them will. The pink ball again, it's swinging. The pink ball's gonna swing. Now, you gotta remember in England at the minute, well, what I saw in county cricket this year, not many people swing the ball anymore. Everyone wants to bowl wobble seam. And the art of swing bowling has gone away a little bit Now. Mitchell Stark, he bowls, he swings it at pace. You know, Boland's probably going to try and hit the deck. You don't know if Cummins is coming back. Do we think that Cummins is going to be saved because maybe Hazelwood is a bit more injured than what we think, or is he just going to. They're going to throw him in, but then he's going to try and swing it as well. So, look, there's lots that he can do as an opening batter myself who was a dasher. There's no worse feeling than when you're not informed because the way we play as a dashing player, you're always living on the edge and you are hoping beyond hope that you hit the first couple in the middle and then you're going to feel really good, you're going to calm yourself down and. But the problem is sometimes you want to be 20 already just to give yourself that relaxing feel and getting to 20 is the toughest bit to do.

You were coming in, Paul.

Yeah, I just the word dasha. I mean, Ryan is renowned for being a bloke who got on with the game, he moved it forward and that's one of the things that, you know, I mean, Trevor Baylis, who was the coach of England the last time England won the Ashes 2015 and Cat worked with him, you know, Trev always talked about playing positive, aggressive cricket. None of this is new to Australia, you know, and what Campbe's talking about there is you want to get the 20 if you're a dasher, you want to get off the mark, you want to play shots and that's what this England team look like. They're all desperate to get the 20, 25 and make their mark on the game. And actually, as Simon's already said, you know, the ability to leave a ball outside off stump, that, that's just as important as a decent forward defensive, you know, knowing where you're off stump is knowing that the ball is swinging and, and, and it keeps scaring me. You, you blokes keep you, you're one up and you keep talking about this bloke. Hazelwood and Cummings coming back in. Just give us a bit of a chance, fellas, really give us a bit of Hope. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

We had so much discussion on, on Saturday and into Sunday as well about this two day pink ball tour game in Canberra that England's Lions are going to play against The Prime Minister's 11. Well, England are going to send Jacob Bethel, Josh Tongue and Matthew Potts to that game. So they will leave the Ashes squad. Let's go back to Saturday and what Ben Stokes had to say when asked if they would change their plans after a two day defeat.

We've operated in this way where we know that the preparation that we put in is correct in the way in which works for us. You know, as I said before, I've been asked this question a lot. That's how it was done a long time ago.

We prepare incredibly well, we work incredibly hard every single day that we get.

The opportunity to work on our game and that's what we'll keep on doing because we believe and we trust in.

Our process and if the results don't.

Go the way in our favour, that's not going to differ from that. Because hand on heart, we know that we put every little bit of ounce.

Of ourselves into our training and we.

Know and believe that this is the.

Best way for this team to operate.

Now, there was quite a lot of reaction to that on Saturday and I think, to be honest, the sort of knee jerk reaction was they need to go and practice, they need to go and practice, they need to go and practice. And maybe in the cold light of day, when you take a little bit of the emotion out of it, Simon, it's about conditions as well and where they can best replicate pink ball in Brisbane. Stuart Law in the Times today saying, I wouldn't want to bat in Canberra and then go to Brisbane.

Yeah, look, I think that's a big reason why they're not playing this two day game. It must be the way they're thinking. I don't know what they're thinking, but I can only speculate that that's the reason. Canberra is generally a low, slower wicket and the gab are obviously expecting it to fly through, so. And obviously swing it. It should be humid up there. This is the story of the 1. As head of maintenance at a concert hall, he knows the show must always go on. That's why he works behind the scenes, ensuring every light is working, the H.

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As it normally is, and Mitchell Stark's record in pickball cricket is second to none. So I guess they probably feel like the Gabinets are going to be the best place to prepare for that, and that's their prerogative. They have a right to prepare the way they see fit. I guess the thing you would challenge with that thinking, though, is that there are a number of players that could benefit just from some time in the middle. And whether it's an hour, hour and a half, two hours batting in the middle, you know, if there's one or two players that were keen to do that, then I'm sure they'll have those discussions with them and you'd think that they would be released to play there. And then they can still get their prep for Brisbane because I'm sure that the timing works out that they would be able to still get back up to Brisbane and prepare with the rest of the squad. So, look, I'm sure those discussions are ongoing at the moment.

How much then, if you were in charge, Ryan, would you leave it up to the individual, what they wanted to do?

Probably a lot of it. But to be honest, I wouldn't be sending my guys to Canberra either, because I think that shows that all of a sudden you've got doubt and the last thing that this team want is doubt. So they're just going to say, you know what, we're going to pack it up. It wasn't great. We know where we have to improve. Let's get on a plane, let's get to Brisbane, let's. And like Ben Stokes said there, and I've watched it up close and personal with him, they work bloody hard at their game. Like, they work harder than whatever I've seen. And one of the things that we're guilty of as cricketers, and it's the one thing that, you know, I've always said in my career, you can't walk in the door and say, so why are we doing that? Well, that's the way we've always done it, because we as, as cricketers, let me tell you, the traditionalists, the. The way we've always done things people hate change. And this, this outfit has changed a few things. And of course, you know, not everyone likes that, but it works for them. Does Every coach come in and want to do something different. I don't like warm ups. Why would you warm up in a four day game? You sit down for bloody three hours and if you're batting down the order like I've tried to take that away, I, it used to drive me insane as a player. So, you know, there are things that you gotta do, but the thing that you, you, you know, you can change a little bit, but you know, the end of the day they're going to prepare accordingly. I think the biggest question for this that came out of this test match is why they didn't play a spinner. Now you can think I can sound stupid by saying, well, that was a, that was a key issue in, in the game because the game was over in two days. But what I'd like to point out is that when the fast bowlers were copping it, Ben Stokes had nothing different up his sleeve. And yeah, you can say Joe Root bowled a couple overs, mate. Nathan Lyon hadn't bowled many overs either. But he's gonna bowl. The question is, is Nathan Lyon going to play in Brisbane where it, you know, oh, it's a pink ball, are we going to play four or five quicks? In my opinion, if you play, if you can't bowl someone out with four quicks, you're not going to bowl them out with five. You need a bit different. Nathan Lyon's record in pink ball tests is unbelievable. Now when you talk about the purposely built team shob, Bashir has been given that role for the last two and a half years. Purposely built for playing in Australia. And I reckon they missed a trick soon as they left him off the team sheet.

Will he be back for Brisbane then, do you think?

Well, again, I'm not sure. They might think that the quicks worked well because they, you know, bowled Australia out early. But again, I just think you need a balanced attack. I think five fast bowlers get a bit same, same. And I know they've all got different traits and you know, Josh Tongue could be another one that they talk about, but I just think you need a bit of variety. Four quicks will bowl enough overs before a spinner can come on because once you get to the 65th, 70th over, mate, you need someone to bowl something different.

On the, just on the, the coaching side of things with the, with the pink ball. Then Paul, you, you were coached with England for the first ever day night test against the West Indies and you've done it for a pinball in Australia. So what, what are the Biggest differences. What do you need to drill between now and then?

Well, I think that the one thing we saw when we played in the Adelaide Test was that the ball swung. I mean, you know, the guys have already talked about Brisbane, the humidity up there. We know the ball swings, we know it will bounce in Adelaide, it swung. And as soon as the lights came on, I mean, I remember Jimmy Anderson bowling one spell to Steve Smith where he bowled right arm around the wicket because the ball was swinging so much, it was almost like a left armor ducking the ball back into Smudger's pads, trying to whack him on the pads, you know, and, and that the, the ball, the game changed. You know, we ended up chasing 2. 350, which we gave them 100 too many. If we'd have chased 250, we'd have had a chance. But the ball did swing. It behaved very differently under lights and, but really interesting there, listening to Cambo talking about the spin. You know, I, I, I keep thinking England won't change the team for the next game because again that's their, their stubbornness about the way that they play and, and they will think the conditions would be pretty much the same. But I, I, you know, I, I agree. And that's where Lyon plays such a huge part in this Australian team. You know, when he plays it gives their bowlers chance to. He bowled brilliantly against us up in Brisbane, first test match of that series, he bowled magnificently. You know, he bowls good first innings overs and evolved and then obviously gets the ball to spin second innings. But I, you know, again, I, I do question the five man attack and maybe there was opportunity for England to, if they didn't play a spinner, at least play another batter and bolster that mid lord a little bit. But maybe that was seen as a negative, but I, I think England will stick the same. 11. You know, when you get to the pink ball, you know it's going to swing and hopefully we've got bowlers in that attack who will swing the ball.

In amongst all the joy, Simon Kasich, of what they did in that first test match, how much in the days since, so in the couple of days since has there been discussion and analysis of Australia's batting and what they need to do?

Yeah, look, there's definitely times where Australia got exposed by that England attack and I think we saw that on day one, you know, that sort of situation they found themselves in where the four pronged attack with Stokes coming in as the fifth and you know that that made Sense for those conditions. I understand what Cambo was saying before, and don't disagree, but I think England had a clear plan that they wanted to be able to go hard at Australia, particularly on the back foot, and they did that. And that showed with, you know, the high percentage of balls that Australia were, you know, forced to play in the back foot. And the only reason, well, the only way they could do that was to have the four quicks plus Stokes, because we know that Wooden archer have a history of breaking down and they can only bowl probably three or four overspills. So Stokes knows that. So I think to be able to have that game plan, they had to go in with that balanced attack. So they sort of opened up some frailties in the Australian batting. When you look at the. Some of the dismissals in that first innings, there was a real lack of footwork on the back foot and a couple of guys got caught, you know, aerial. Even when you see Cameron Green in the footage get hit in the head, his back foot is in the air, so there's no sort of stability to how he's playing the short ball. And I think that's something they'll continue to do. They just went overboard in the second innings, particularly to Travis Head. When you go short, obviously got to use it, but you've got to use it at the right times and then mix it up with your line and length, particularly with that new ball. And they didn't do that. They were too guilty of. Of just going one way the whole time with a pretty predictable field. So they'll learn from that and they'll be better for it in the second Test. But I don't see them playing a spinner up at Brisbane again. I can't see them doing that if they want to keep this game plan. But they have to think about it because the pink ball does go soft after sort of 30, 40 overs. And so if that's the case, and we saw it in the second innings, a couple of these England quicks didn't back up that well. So it's up to the England batters now to spend more time out in the middle to make it easier for their quicks, not having to be in the field day after day.

If I. If I had to ask you. Well, I don't have to, but I'm going to. If I ask you that, Ryan, give me Australia's top six for the second Test, what would it be?

Well, I think it'll be the same.

Do you?

I'll start with that because I think they'll they'll, you know, they'll give Kawaja an extra opportunity. If I would love to see a change, to be honest, I'm not going to hide behind it. I think Usman has been a very good player for Australia, but when you're getting to an older age, it gets tougher and tougher and, you know, especially.

If you played golf the day before.

Well, if you're facing, you know, high quality fast bowling now, the one that I threw up, I think we were on BBC and we threw it up about who should open the batting when Australia were going through it, I actually obviously threw Josh Inglis into the mix and people laughed at me, basically.

But he's had a great day today.

Well, I noticed he's just made 100. I'm not, and I'm not jumping on that to say, oh, look, I told you so. But what I just felt is that Australia, since Warner retired, we've lost our mojo at the top of the order. We haven't had anyone who gave it back to the opposition. And what Travis Head did. Look, we're in trouble. Trav, can you go in? Yeah, no worries, mate, Anytime. I'll go up there, but I think they'll just go now. He'll go back, but I just think someone like an Inglis and now Jake Weatherell, don't get me wrong, it was just adding a different layer to Australia's batting, and that's what I think is a good thing. No, I hate to say it when a guy's coming to the end, but Uzi's coming to the end, and I guess now is the time. Everyone wants a fairy tale, but in the past, Australian cricket has always prided itself on, you know what, we make the decision when you go and when you stay. Some have been lucky enough to have the fairytale. Not many have. Now, is this regime gonna do that? I don't know. Like, I don't know what Bailey's thinking, I don't know what, you know, McDonald's thinking, but I would have thought if you want to win the Ashes and you want to remain number one in the world, you're going to have to make some tough calls. And that Usman Khawaja decision, not just because Travis said, like I say, I think Travis said can still bat down the order, but I think it just showed that Usman, with this high quality fast bowling, is under the pump.

Would you. Would you expect them to make changes, Paul?

No, I think they'll stay same 11. I think two days of one series. If you make a change. Now you're almost admitting you got it wrong in the first place. And I, I would like to think. And listen, I get Campbell's Point in Australia have been renowned for being tough on selection and making the right call at the right time. But, you know, ultimately, this team have played, as was pointed out earlier, you know, this team have won World Test championships. They've been fantastic over a long period of time. Now, you know, I, I think, you know, Kawaja deserves to stay in the side. I would be amazed if they changed the team. I. I think both teams will go in unchanged for the next Test. England was saying, you got us in it, let's get out of it. Australia, we've only played two days of Test cricket. We picked the same team.

But, but they can, they can use the back spasms, I'm guessing, as a, as a. As an excuse. Simon, can't they. I mean, and go, look, that really does throw a spanner in the works for us. We can't risk that happening again.

Yeah, definitely. And that's where, you know, this Australian team has been very good at wearing the opposition down in the first 30 overs to then make a Steve Smith at four and Travis Head five. And these guys at six and seven become very, very dangerous, particularly here in Australia. We've seen it over a number of years now where these guys, they can come in with an older ball. They are damaging Travis Head in particular. Yeah, look, it's an interesting one. If George Bailey's taken Steve War's criticism to heart, then we will see a change, because if Australia want to be ruthless, that's the one area where England could potentially expose that middle order to a new ball, as we saw on day one in Perth. And, you know, we saw the dismissal of Usman Khawaja and I think I mentioned it last week, England will come hard for the older Australian players, like him, like Smith and even Travis Head to a lesser extent. But we saw it in his dismissal, went upstairs, there was no footwork, caught on, basically didn't really use the depth in his crease and fended at a ball that he really needed to drop his gloves at. And that's what happens when you're 38 years of age. You don't have the sharpness to be able to get out of the way or drop your hands because you just. You caught short in time. So it's going to be an interesting discussion. I don't know where he's at physically, but he wasn't moving great in the field. We all saw that he dropped a catch that probably should have been taken, which could have proved costly had Jamie Smith made him pay. But look, it's going to be an interesting discussion because, as Cambo said, there's a number of options, too. Josh Inglis is a very good player. Got 100 earlier in the year in Sri Lanka, albeit in different conditions. Got the hundred against the England Lions, so he's put his name up. Matt Renshaw's just got another 100 at the Gabba this week, so that's his third for the season. He's playing really well and he was in the mix, you know, in the talk about whether. Whether it opens. So Australia have got a number of options and if they really want to be ruthless, they could go 2 nil up in this series if they want to make that change. But they have also been very consistent over the last few years, so I'd expect them to keep the same team.

It looked like you were coming in, Paul, were you?

No, I. I just thinking about, you know, this idea of, you know, Kawaja not moving. Well, you know, they. They knew that he wasn't perhaps moving well, you know, he is coming to the end of his time. But, you know, as Simon's saying there, I think that's where head from an Australian point of view, as an Englishman, I quite like head to stay opening the band because I think we've got more chance to get him out against the new ball when he's doing a little bit more while it's still hard, I'd far rather him come in an Open. I know he played brilliantly at the weekend and it was one of the best innings I've seen in Test match green in Ash's cricket. But I'd far rather he was coming in at the top of the order than coming in at 5. Because if he's coming in at 5 and the ball's a bit softer, he could cause even more mayhem and take a game away from us. So I. I would rather he did open, but I think they'll stick the same. I'd be amazed if they change.

Let's talk about Mitchell Stark, shall we, and his performance in Perth. 7 for 58 in the first innings. His career best bowling figures in Test. The first Aussie quick to take 10 wickets in an Ashes Test since Craig McDermott in 1991. Only Glenn McGrath has got more wickets in Australia as a fast bowler and when they needed him, Ryan, he stepped up.

Well, you talk about leadership and you talk about. A lot of people immediately think that you need to have the captain's banner on your arm or whatever to be a leader of your team. But what I saw was Mitchell Stark who lost two of his mates and let's be honest, those three fast bowlers have for the last seven or eight years been with Lyon, probably the bit, one of the, it'll go down in history as probably one of the best bowling combinations of all time. And he lost two of those along the way. And he knew that he had to stand up for his team. He had a debutante, he had Scotty Boland who he could obviously trust and played a lot of cricket, but had never been the front liner. And he had to open the bowling in that first innings, yet he just went, you know what, relax lads, this one's on me. And just the way he bowled, you know, his line and length and, you know, I was very interested to hear him say that the sevenfer, the ball they used was out of shape and he, and he was, they were really angry with the ball they couldn't get. They were trying to get it changed. But the second ball in the. Or the second ball they used in the, in the second innings, it actually swung and they thought they had a great ball and it was going around the corner. So the 7 foot could have been even better with, you know, if they had a, a round ball, so to speak. But yeah, leadership to me. Obviously you can talk about his skill and his pace and all that, but I just saw a guy who just led his attack brilliantly and he's going to have to keep doing it because like you say, if Cummins and Hazelwood aren't coming in the next Test then he's going to have to do it again there and then hopefully the, the cavalry is coming, so to speak.

He's a very mature bowler now, isn't he, Simon?

Yeah, he's completely different to what we saw, you know, years ago. I think early on he relied on that, you know, 145k plus pace and swinging the ball back into the right handers. Whereas what we saw in Perth was a really skillful bowler that's adapted to obviously batsman reading that sort of in swing. And I think, you know, that three quarter, same wobble scene ball that everyone talks about now that's been the big change in his game. And I think, you know, the classic example of that in the Test match was the way he worked over Joe Root in the first innings to get him out for a duck. He just kept angling across with that three quarter seam ball, keeping it in the channel, away from him knowing that Joe Root would want to feel bad on ball at some point. And then the very first ball that he bowled in line with the stumps, he gets the nick and gets Joe Root out for a duck, which is a big strike day one of a Test match. So he got duck it out who was looking dangerous with the ball that, you know, angling in. So he's doing it in a different fashion now. And I reckon he's a lot more patient bowler than he was initially, where he just relied on big in swing and his pace. I think he's a much more skillful bowler now. And as Cambo rightly said, his leadership in that Test was absolutely superb. Not just in the first innings where, you know, he got the seven foot, but more so in the second innings where we're behind the game. He gets Zach Crawley out again early, and then when we needed it, he knocked Stokes over. His record against Stokes is unbelievable. And if Stokes has a poor series, then that's going to go a long way to Australia winning the Ashes. And I think Mitchell Stark will have a big role to play in that.

Completely agree. Look, we, we had Starkey with us at Yorkshire when he was a young player and it was all about pace, you know, and trying to bowl as full as he could and hitting the stumps. I, you know, to go along with what Simon's saying there, the dismissal of Stokes in the first innings, high quality bowling, got the ball to shape, shape, shape, fingers across it, knocked him over and hit the stumps. You know, I, I think, you know, that he really is now Stark. He is high quality. He led from the front and it's no mean feat, that thing, that point that could easily be missed out. You know, when you've had that big three that have stuck together and worked together and then it's not just about the taking the wickets of Starkey, it's leading the attack, taking that role on and actually coping with all the pressure that he's had to cope with.

They still have to balance and I think they've said, haven't they, that they will go till the night before with, with Cummins and that Hazelwood at some point will play a part. There were rumors that he might be out of the series, but the noises were that at some point in the series they've said he will play a part. The first Test performance and actually the way Boland came back, Paul, do you think that means they can afford to be a bit more patient?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, Boland you know what we saw of him in the first innings is not the normal Scott Bollen. I mean he is a high quality bowler. I really like him and I, I think he'll bowl exceptionally well in Brisbane with the extra bounce. So there is no rush. I mean I just hope Cat really actually said to Pat Cummings, mate, I'd give yourself another couple of weeks.

If.

You could have done that Cat. That have been absolutely ideal. But look, you know they, they've got those two to come back and there is no rush. You know I actually thought that Doggart as well bowled nicely. I, I thought he bowled really well. And as I say Bollen much better in the second innings. There's no rush in Australian point of view and you know they're high quality bowlers, you know and they'll want to play at Brisbane because it is a great place for seeing bowlers to bowl.

I think it's going to be an exciting test match. So there you go. We've seen the exciting two days. I think it's going to go a bit longer than that and it's going to. I think England will bounce back. I would love to see Cummins play because let's be honest, if they do bounce back and it's over in three days and who plays five day tests anymore as a fast bowler? So look, I think they won't take any, you know, undue risks with him. I think Doggett and Boland have been outstanding. Obviously I, I've been lucky enough to see them at Durham over the last couple of years and I think their potential with a pink ball is really, really exciting as well. Australia will stay calm, England will stay calm from the outside but their little feet will be, you know, splashing under the water a lot. But I expect Ben Stokes will lead that team and they'll try and bounce back. Can they win the Test? I don't think so, but I think they're going to be a much, much better team.

It wasn't too bad, Paul. They weren't too gloating with us, were they? We got through it.

Yeah, we've done okay I reckon. And actually they're two better Aussies as well so we haven't done too badly to be fair.

There's a compliment if ever there was one to them. But I mean they have both. They're both beamed through the last hour, but there we are. Ryan Simon, Paul, thank you very much. Second Test starts in Brisbane at 4am next Thursday. Every ball with the TMS team on sports Extra along with plenty of podcasts on BBC Sounds throughout the tour. Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes.

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