Flazball incoming? Fleming set to be Test head coach

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

It's been reported in the Telegraph and it's been verified by Stefan Schemmel that these are facts that can be reported. There is no contract yet signed, but a new coach is lined up and— Hooray! Yes, hooray!

Hooray!

And it's, it's another Kiwi. We've got a big Kiwi loving going on at the moment. And it's Stephen Fleming, we believe, is going to be the new coach for England. As I say, the contract hasn't been signed yet. It's been reported that he would take the role from the South Africa Test series. So this is to be the Test coach, so not for the Pakistan series. So there'd have to be an interim coach for that. We don't know who that would be, but could well be Marcus Drescoffit, couldn't it? This is already part of the setup. No announcement about an interim captain. I suppose Stephen Fleming would want to choose his own captain. Let's, I guess, start with that. One of the first things that occurs to me, not necessarily for the captaincy, but there's a player who's not playing today who is captain of MyLondon, Sam Curran, who has been coached by Stephen Fleming. And there is a big gaping hole in the seam bowling all-rounder department. Sam Curran's been playing quite a bit of red ball cricket. Do coaches, when they come in, do they even think in those terms? You know, because he'll have developed a rapport with him. I know it's in T20 cricket, but is— might that be a little pointer as to the sorts of players he might be interested in?

Well, I think it will count. Relationships, and relationships with the coach are vitally important for captains. So yeah, absolutely, it might come into his thinking, but I'd be surprised if that was the sole reason that someone was picked in the Test match team. In fact, I'd be aghast if someone was picked in a Test match team just for that. So, um, yeah, there are a number of different criteria that you would have to fit in, but clearly when you are a new coach, you have to come in with a vision and a plan. And, um, and you'd hope that if it is going to be for the South Africa series, that Stephen Fleming would have that sewn up by then.

Um, what— those of you who know him, what sort of a character is he? He's going to be different. Everyone's different. He's gonna be different from Brendan McCullum, you'd imagine. Carbs, what do you know of Stephen Fleming, the man?

Very little, being honest. I think I played against him very young in my career, but obviously watched from afar. He's a very successful franchise coach, was a great captain for New Zealand. I suppose one of those kind of very under-the-radar sort of people, sort of coaches, I should say. Even with all the success he's brought to Chennai over the years, he's not someone that you sort of hear in the press very much, or, you know, so someone that obviously likes to be kind of in the background, but obviously there's a deep respect for him, and he was known for his, you know, for being a very good tactical leader on the pitch. So I agree with something Finney just said there. What I want to see really, whoever's the test coach, if it is Stephen Fleming or another, is a plan. And I think that's the thing that's just been lacking over the last— certainly over the last 6 months, but certainly during the Ashes— is that we lacked a plan. When Baz ball didn't work, which I said early, very from very early, it was never a sustainable way of playing the game. But anyway, takes people to get punched in the face a few times to realize that. But, you know, what's the plan going forward? What is a sustainable plan so that youngsters in county cricket are not feeling like they have to go out and smash it at 13 and over against the new Duke's ball. They can, dare I say, play some just solid basic cricket.

Do you think though, because just mentioned county cricket there, um, Finney, how much do you think Stephen Fleming knows about the English cricket scene? Are you happy with another overseas coach rather than say a coach who is enmeshed already within a county, for example?

Yes, because I think you want the best and best qualified person for the job. And I haven't written the job description. It's going to be the, the top bods at the ECB who have decided exactly what they want from this head coach and the criteria that they need to fill. And I think that the scouting network and the network of relationships within domestic cricket allow you to, to allow yourself to become entwined into that itself. Stephen Fleming clearly has a respect for domestic cricket. He played for Nottinghamshire. I think he coached the Southern Brave in, in the first few hundreds as well. So he's not unfamiliar with domestic cricket. He probably will take some getting up to speed with the new younger players that are coming through, and he will give himself time to do that. I can't imagine he's going to be the kind of person— he doesn't strike me as the kind of person I, I have never encountered. He's one of the few people actually— usually you've come across people somewhere in your career. Not once have I crossed paths with Stephen Fleming, apart from my breakfast with him one morning in, um, in Birmingham before I was working on a New Zealand versus England game. But he strikes me as someone who would be well thought out, well planned. I don't think you hold the job at Chennai Super Kings for 17 years or whatever he did, for without being, um, well thought out, well planned, and a measured person, um, and well prepared. And I think that one of the things that he will allow himself to do by coming in for the South Africa series and not the Pakistan series is to be able to give himself time to take a view about the stuff that he has at his disposal and then make best use of it.

I'll just jump in there quickly. I think I think that's a very smart decision on his front to actually not dive in straight away and actually give himself that time to just oversee what's gone on, start to formulate, start to understand who he wants as his lieutenants, if you like, who's— who his captain's going to be, you know, reach out to senior players and get an, you know, get an understanding again of this buzzword, the brand of cricket they want to play and what he wants to impart on the team. I think from that perspective. Already he's shown that he's a, he's quite a deep thinker.

Um, also it feels a bit on brand with what the ECB might need at the moment. So he's a massive figure in New Zealand cricket, captain them umpteen times, you know, it's almost sort of Graham Smith levels of captaincy. Was at it for years and years and years, very well respected player, um, totally different kind of player as well. From Brendan McCullum, wasn't he? I mean, uh, a bit more measured in the way he went about things. Whether that'll translate into how he coaches a modern Test team, I don't know. Is it also a bit of a coup for the ECB that they've got somebody who's been doing all this franchise coaching? He's been not just with Chennai Super Kings but with various offshoots of, of the Super Kings franchise, hasn't he? And there was a lot of talk about, well, why would anybody want to be the coach of England when you can go and do You say 7 weeks at the IPL, a few weeks of Big Bash. I mean, it's— they have, they have found someone.

Well, yeah, clearly they have found someone.

Yeah, but who actually, you know, is, is making a load of money out of franchise cricket.

Yeah, well, we don't know the circle— I don't know the circumstances about whether he'll keep doing it, CSK role, or whether, um, that sometimes you just want a different plan, don't you? Want, you want to experience something new, and he seems to me to be someone who is quite worldly and quite well-rounded. When I read or listened to him speak before, he seems calm under pressure. Again, I don't think you hold one of those roles in a big IPL franchise for that long without being calm under pressure and being able to deal with different people from above coming at you without dealing with the relationship with national boards about the availability of players as well, which there's going to be that confliction between the white ball head coach and the Test head coach about who gets their players and when.

Um, because there's a World Cup next year, but there's also an Ashes.

So there's a lot happening, there's a lot happening, and, and that might come into his decision when he decides who he wants to be captain of the, of the Test match team. There are lots and lots of, um, questions that he will have to answer, um, and that will be in a collaborative way. I think clearly it will help that he will have an existing relationship with Brendan McCullum Not that I think that McCollum couldn't work with anyone, because I think he's a very amiable man and he will be respectful of the person, whoever it is, that takes that head coach. But the fact they would have a good initial relationship, I think, helps that too.

Well, Fleming will know Brendan McCollum very well, won't he?

So that, that you would have captained him at some point, I would have thought.

So you'd imagine that that could be helpful. Um, just trying to think in terms of, you know, other ways in which that this this might shake things up a little bit? Because obviously people have developed relationships with Brendan McCullum, and Harry Brook was absolutely not nailed on certainty to be the England Test captain, far from it, because we've been talking about it quite a bit lately. But it felt like that's who they had lined up. Do you think this means that you start all over again? We just don't— we don't know. Whereas, you know, under Brendan McCullum, if after Ben Stokes' retirement, Brendan McCullum was still coach. You would have thought, right, that's just a simple handing over the baton to Harry Brook. Now does it not feel like that?

Well, I mean, I think that's the whole, the whole point of having this, if you like, reset, is that it's got to be just that. I think you're not looking for the same relationship with— if it's— if it is to be Harry Brook and the new coach coming in, you do want that new relationship to some degree because you want that new coach to put his, a, his own spin on things, but also, you know, there was clearly, you know, things going on that wasn't to the benefit of English cricket whilst Brendan McCullum was, you know, it's not an elephant in the room, it's what was going on. So I would like to think that Steven Fleming coming in, you know, if it is to be Harry Brook as captain, there would be a different relationship. There'll be some, maybe some, some tough conversations that maybe need to be had with Harry Brook to say, well, look, this is, this is the standards I expect, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, going forward. And Harry Brook would have the opportunity to also put his case forward of what he, what he wants as a captain. He's got to, you know, he's got to work together. He's not It can't be a kind of communism. It's got to, you know, you've got to find the middle ground.

And I think, but in your experience, is that relationship something that, you know, coach and captain, or I guess what I'm trying to drive at is how important is it that the coach gets his choice of captain?

Very important. I don't think you can have a captain imposed upon you.

So director of cricket wouldn't like go, right, we want Harry Brook to be captain. Sorry, Steven, your, your coach, whoever, whoever you may—

they might do, they might do. I don't think that's the right way to go about it, but they might well have said that, and Fleming might have gone, yes, that's fine. Um, but, but I think that connection and the synergy between the captain and coach is what makes everything tick. It's how you drive a true message home, is when you are both completely entwined about the way you want your team to go forward. And The, the fascinating thing for me now, um, is what kind of cricket does Stephen Fleming want to play? And that would have been a big question in the job interview. I'm sure one of the questions would have been, how do you envisage your team playing? Um, how do you want them to go about winning games of Test match cricket? What would the balance of your team look like? Um, and who would be the key players for you to achieve what you want to? Um, those have been very important questions that would have had to be answered throughout the interview process. And, um, it's another exciting chapter in the, in the melodrama that is English cricket. It marches on, doesn't it?

Well, it does, but another part of it is that it suggests to me that if they've appointed or about to appoint a captain, then, you know, a lot of people will be going, well, what's the situation with Rob Key? Is he still going to keep his job?

Well, I think we'll be seeing an interim captain in this Pakistan series.

An interim captain?

I'd be staggered if we don't see, um, an interim coach, an interim captain, and everything is on pause until South Africa, right?

And do you think that might also be true of the people at the top of English cricket, or you don't see any change taking place there? I'm talking here about Key and the two Richards.

I think that's hard to judge. I think surprising that all of those guys have escaped the highest level of scrutiny throughout all of this, but I Um, yeah, there needs to be some stability somewhere. You can't rip the entire organization.

Oh well, they did it. Well, they did it after 2013-14, didn't they?

Yes. Yeah, they did. Or we're going back to 1989 Ashes where they used 35 players or 5 captains, right?

Uh, just one thing that I have discovered is that these two don't know Stephen Fleming as well as me. He made me a very good cup of tea once. I think it was at Durham when we had him on commentary. He's a thoroughly affable man.

Well, it's no wonder he's got the job there.

Yeah.

I put in a word for his tea. It's just the right level of strength.

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So Michael Carberry, what are the things that England need to fix?

That is a very good question. Well, I'll do my best. Well, I think the obvious one, they've gotta get some stability. I think that's what's been lacking over the last few weeks, a lot of uncertainty, you know, with the retirement of— well, the sudden retirement of Ben Stokes. Brendan McCullum obviously moved on as Test coach as well. So I think going forward, one thing England will be looking for now is just to gain some stability amongst the group, get a coach in, which they've done. Well, it seems Stephen Fleming is going to be the man. Still don't know who the captain is, who's going to be nailed on for that, but, um, I guess that'd be the next phase to know who's going to lead the team into the next era. And you would think the Ashes is coming up, he's going to be, you know, you're looking really forward, forward planning for that as well. Um, and also, you know, what's going to be the style of English cricket, because obviously we've seen in the last couple of years under Brendon Cullum a very sort of if you like, unique way of playing the game. It has— it lasted for a sort of 15-game segment, but then, you know, it sort of all unraveled this winter. It unraveled in India, you know, um, and, you know, it's, it's caused— it been polarized, polarizing amongst fans and, and supporters and former players. Um, so it'll be interesting now to try and see what the new coach coming in, what, what his style he wants to impart on, on the team going forward.

How hard is it going to be to get that stability with mixed coaching roles? Because we both played in an era, the first time that the coaching roles were split with Andy Flower and Ashley Giles, and we both played in both those teams, the white ball and the red ball teams. How much of a challenge is that going to be with an Ashes next year and the World Cup coming after?

I think it was— I, I think it can be deeply challenging, um, because again, in our era, we had, as you rightly said, we had, um, Andy Flower doing the Test matches, Ash Giles doing the ODIs, and two completely different characters. I think it'd be much the same now with Stephen Fleming coming in and Brendan McCullum being the outgoing Test captain but now the ODI coach. And again, two guys who play the game very, very, in very, very different ways. So I think it's going to be a very interesting time for any England player, budding England player coming in, as to trying to, I suppose, integrate the style of play that that coach wants to go with.

What do you think the style of play the team needs is to win those big series? Because that is the big criticism of the of what we've seen over the last 4 years is that the cricket was so entertaining, it was fascinating to watch, but in the big moments, in the big series, they didn't quite get over the line. What needs to change in order for them to do that?

To be honest, Finney, I like the attacking style of cricket. As you know, I like to watch England play well and batters come out and attack, of course. But I would like to see, as I've been saying for years, I'd like see that, that bit of smarts. It's, it's you— there's times, as you know, that we— you can go on the attack, but sport isn't an all-out attack game, you know. There's times where you have to be— where you can't win, you've got to be hard to beat, all right? And that's also— you're trying to create legacy as a, as a Test team. You know that better than anybody. You played in the England team when they were on that pursuit to world number one, and you didn't win every Test match. But what you were, were a core group of players, and I was outside of that, as you know, of a team that was very hard to beat home and away. And that's, for me, got to be somewhat of a target for England teams. You know, how can we go away to India and win? How can we go to South Africa, Australia, you know, places where it's not common for England team or anybody to go there and win? How can, how can this England team be a team for all conditions, um, rather than playing entertain— you know, the, the needle being too far across the other way of, oh, it's all about entertainment. Yes, you, you, you're trying to entertain, but I think what's our job as professionals is trying to win games of cricket, and that can take many, many different guises. And sometimes you have to tough it out. You know, as a bowler, you know, it'd be lovely to, you know, pitch it up full up the stumps all the time, but You know, when a batsman gets in, you've got to, you've got to think slightly more defensively. You've got to keep skin in the game. You've got to keep, keep on top of him in, in a different way. And I'd just like to see that, you know, that little bit of common sense smarts come back into English cricket.

Um, and the captaincy element of this as well. Um, Harry Brook is probably the front runner to, to be the captain across all three formats. How, how tenable is Is that, do you think, both with the amount of cricket that's played and also for him to be able to give absolutely everything to all three of those roles?

I mean, for me, that is one of the hardest decisions I think the new coach, the hierarchy, have got to make, is factoring in everything you've just said there. It's not just the job itself, but it's, you know, how many— he's captain for all formats. And that's very, very tough in the modern-day calendar where you are, you are basically, you're going to get a break. Um, you don't want to look— you don't want someone like Harry Brook to lose form because he's still a fantastic batsman. You don't want him to lose his form as a batter through fatigue, having so many things to factor in. So maybe, I don't know what's the conversations that are going on at the moment, but Maybe they'll be looking at someone who is probably exclusively just a Test player, um, which then narrows down the options even further. I think that's, that's the worry at the moment. We don't have 2 or 3 nailed-on options. I'm taking Joe Root out of this equation because he's obviously had a go and, you know, he's at an older age now. But, you know, of someone in that age bracket Harry Brook is in to, to lead this team forward, I think that's the That's the worry for me. We don't just— don't have this— the candidates ready. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Uh, Jamie Overton's with me. Been reported in The Telegraph that Stephen Fleming is going to be the next England Test coach for the South Africa series. So you've been coached by Stephen Fleming. Can you give us kind of insight into the sort of style of coach he'll be?

Uh, very relaxed. Um, not let the players do what they want, but he will have like repercussions if lads aren't doing the right things. He got a little bit frustrated in India with guys just trying to whack the ball out the nets. He wants to play the right sort of cricket, and I think he'll be very like tactical in those sort of side of things. But yeah, he's a great guy. He's very relaxed, very calm, and very composed. Like, if he does get the job, he'll be great for it.

Won't be tempted to come back, play a bit of red ball cricket?

Not at the moment. I feel my body's in a good spot. Obviously, I've had not a great summer with coming back from India early with a quad tear and issues in my shoulder. But it feels like I'm sort of over that now and shoulder's getting better each day. But yeah, I feel like trying to bowl 25 overs, 20 overs in a day is probably not quite ready for that at the moment.

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