Fleming & Root to lead England Test team

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

Pop quiz! What's in your kids' lunchbox? At Whole Foods Market, they've already done the studying. Over 300 food ingredients are banned from their shelves. No hydrogenated fats in the peanut butter and no high fructose corn syrup in the cookies. And for sandwiches, there are no synthetic nitrates or nitrites in any of their deli meat. So you can pack lunch boxes with peace of mind. Get back to school ready at Whole Foods Market.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Henry Moran. Welcome to the Test Match Special Podcast on a seismic day for the England men's side. Stephen Fleming is the new head coach of the Test team, and returning to captain is Joe Root. Fleming will take over after the upcoming Pakistan series beginning on August 19th. You'll be able to hear all of it on Sports Extra and BBC Sounds. And Joe Root is back to captain in that series, captain with immediate effect. We'll get the thoughts of Jonathan Agnew as well as former New Zealand wicketkeeper Katie Martin, who knows Stephen Fleming well. But first, let's speak to a man who knows Joe Root very well. That's the former England captain Michael Vaughan, who's alongside me. And Michael, what a day, extraordinary news. What are your initial thoughts?

Steven Fleming's been, um, one of the names that has been mentioned over the last few weeks, obviously since Rob Key decided to stand Baz McCullum down from the Test job. Andy Flower, I think from what I've read, is the one that they wanted. He turned that down, so it was like, okay, how do we get the next best? And I think what they've done is they found someone who's very experienced. Um, some will say, oh, he's not coached in Red Bull cricket. But you've got a very experienced manager, very experienced coach who's been around the modern game with Chennai Super Kings over the course of the last few years. He was a very, very good captain back in the day, very good tactician, renowned for being a really good man-manager. So of all the candidates that have been mentioned, you know, I think Tom Moody would have been a good choice as well. I think Darren Lehmann would have been a good choice. I think they've gone with someone which, um, you look at the combination and the combination of having Baz McCullum still as the white ball coach and then someone, uh, coaching the Test match team who doesn't know Baz McCullum, that could have been really tricky. Uh, so I think Stephen Fleming has been brought in for that reason. I think he's, uh, obviously, uh, very close to McCullum. Uh, I believe they're in business together, actually. I think they sell a bit of lamb together, Henry, which is interesting. So they'll be able to sell us a few, uh, nice lamb shanks. Along the way. Um, yeah, I, I think, uh, they needed someone that could work with Baz McCullum because, um, someone that doesn't know Baz and his style, I think it could have got very, very messy. Uh, Joe Root, um, you know, as a second go at captaincy, we saw him captain a few weeks ago in that second test at the Oval, um, with a very inexperienced England side. And I just wonder from Joe's perspective if he needed this, you know, just to try and get that real enthusiasm to get up every morning to play Test match cricket. I know he's getting ever closer to Sachin Tendulkar's record, and many will say, you know, is that not motivation enough? And there'll be many England fans going, oh, our best player's now the captain. But I just look at Joe at his stage of his career and the amount of cricket that he's played. I just wonder whether he needed this. He needs this little trigger, this little motivational tool that should get him out of bed in the morning. He hasn't got that many of his close friends in the team anymore. You know, a lot of his teammates have retired or moved on. So maybe this is exactly what Joe Root needs as well.

And what about the sort of memories for Root as being Test captain? Because yeah, it was a very different time, a lot of restrictions around COVID. And my abiding memory is he looked haunted by the end of it. Is there a worry it could impact him as a player?

Yeah, I mean, I thought he got a bit of a dodgy hand. I mean, Around the time that he was appointed, England were trying to win the 50-over World Cup, and all the England eggs were put in the white ball basket. And it came to fruition with that magnificent win at Lord's in 2019. Then COVID struck. You know, none of us really know how hard it would be to captain in a COVID time. Well, Joe had to do that. And as you're right, that Caribbean tour where it came to an end, it looked like it was a job that was just a little bit too far for him. You know, he's a bit older, a bit wiser. Um, I think he's got a really good coach beside him in Stephen Fleming, so that's going to help. I think Stephen will help out with a lot of the stuff that, um, some captains get drained by. I think Stephen will be excellent at, uh, kind of organizing the dressing room and making sure that the tactical side of the team is in good order. Um, tactically, he's been found a little bit wanting in the past. So it wasn't just COVID, it wasn't just the fact that England were focused on white-ball cricket. There was a few times in his captaincy reign, and also the Oval on that second morning when there was no job for Archer for an hour and a half. That was a strange tactical maneuver. So there are areas that Joe can improve as a captain. He'll probably be the first to admit that. But I just think in terms of his motivation and in terms of what left is there for Joe Root to do in the game, of course there's a few runs to get past Sachin, but I think he's looking at next year's Ashes. If he can be an Ashes winner, a world leader in terms of the runs that he scored in Test match cricket, You can't ask for a more perfect career. So he's got this chance with a new kind of fresh approach to the Test match team with he at the helm and with a really good coach beside him. His difficulty will be getting a structure in his team, you know, and getting a formula without an all-rounder like Ben Stokes. And I'll keep saying it, I just wonder over the next few months— I'm sure Ben won't be back in 2026— but I just wonder whether having Joe at the top of the 3 in terms of a captain, someone like Steven Fleming, who has obviously coached Ben Stokes in the IPL. I, I just wonder whether this, this appointment and both these appointments has just given us all a little bit of a glimmer that it may happen. The dream may happen next year that Ben might come back.

Was there ever another option for England in terms of who is going to be captain? Because I suppose Harry Brook is the, the obvious other candidate, but once they decided he was just going to focus on the white ball stuff, which is apparently what is— yeah, that would seem to be what they're looking at. I mean, was there another option?

Well, you kind of— you go from outside of the group, which is a massive risk because you're bringing in someone potentially that has not stabilized themselves in the Test match team. I look at someone like Sam Curran. Would it have been more sensible for Harry Brook to do the Test job and the 50-over job and someone like Sam Curran to come and do the T20 job? You know, you get a feeling that Harry Brook and Baz McCullum are a strong combination and they didn't want to break that up. And And maybe Harry gave the indication that doing all 3 jobs is just a little bit too much. And I totally agree. I think to try and captain all 3 formats is near on impossible. So I would think that Harry would have wanted to carry on doing both white ball teams, which almost rules him out in a way of doing the Test match team. And you say, oh, could Sam Curran come and captain the Test match team? You think, well, that's a tall ask because he's not a guaranteed selection in that side. So, um, you could have gone Jacob Bethell as a young player before asking a lot of a young player that's batting at 3 and he's not kind of established himself in Test match cricket to then captain the side. Ben Duckett has been mentioned as well. Um, the candidates aren't crying out, Henry, and that'd be my concern. And one of the goals for Steven Fleming would be to try and make sure that the succession planning of the England Test match team is a better one than what we've seen of late. You know, when you think that Baz McCullum, uh, was sacked and we're all kind of looking around for the next Test match coach, um, and obviously we've ended up with Steven Fleming that looks like a very sensible appointment. But that the leadership of the Test match side— I know Baz finished and said, oh, we've got plenty of leaders in the dressing room, but we don't see many captains in those, those players at the minute. And that'll be one of Steven Fleming's jobs, to make sure that whenever his time is up, um, we've got a stronger group of players that potentially 3 or 4 of them could captain. And more importantly, it's the style of play. And, you know, I'm kind of sick and tired of talking about England's style of play. The style of play that I want to see is England winning. Whatever that style is on that given day and whatever that style is that given week, that given session, that given hour, England have just got to play the right style of cricket that wins games of cricket. I'm sick and tired of talking about talent and the gulf of talent in English cricket. You know, prove it now. Go and win games of cricket. Winners of the Ashes next year, the white ball team, go and compete heavily in that World Cup in South Africa after the Ashes next uh, next season as well. We can only, uh, talk about talent and the, the kind of gulf of talent in English cricket for so long. They've got to start winning games of cricket and winning trophies now.

What about the length of deal for, for Steven Fleming? Up until September 2030, I mean, 4 years. There's a lot of stock being put in.

Yeah, and I guess that's, um, you know, I'm surprised that he's not coming for the Pakistan series. I thought You know, August 19th, a few weeks, uh, playing Pakistan would be the, uh, the ideal time for a new coach to just come in and assess the situation, get to know everyone within the group, get to know people within the game. Um, I know he's going to come down the back end of the season to start planning for the tour of South Africa, but I guess that's the situation that Rob Key's found himself in. It's a little bit of a mess, and he's had to go with someone that can't fly over to the UK and, uh, coach for 3 games against Pakistan, which I would have thought would have been a more sensible start to a reign. When you think that Steven will be coaching an Ashes series next summer and he'll have only coached 1 Test match in the UK before the Ashes series against Australia, I thought the 3 Tests against Pakistan would have been a perfect start.

And what about the, I suppose, yeah, the excitement levels? Because when Ben Stokes and Brendan McCullum were appointed, there was a real sense that there was a buzz around. Does this bring the buzz of Baz, or is this just a little bit safe as an option?

Well, I don't think— I mean, I don't think you can ever ask for a more experienced combination. You've got Joe Root, who's played so many games, he's captained plenty of times before. And how much is he going to use from that experience of being captain the first time in his second time of being the England captain? Stephen Fleming has been around the game for many, many years as a player, as a captain. And obviously as a coach in the IPL, I mean, there'll be so many songs, but he's not coached in Red Bull Cricket. I, I see Stephen Fleming as being, uh, very similar in a way to Baz, a leader of the group. You know, he's renowned for being a magnificent leader. The one thing that this Test match team need is coaching, you know. So I want to know from his, from his time when he's going to start, you know, who's going to be in his backroom team, because these players need coaching. They need to be really ironing out this, uh, this keeper stood-up tactic, you know, on the technical side of batting. How many of our players can play a rock-solid forward defense, you know? How many of them can, can look themselves in the mirror and go, you know what, when Michael Nesta balls that good length, you know, when Matt Henry balls that good length, when Scott Boland balls that good length just on and around the off stump, how many of our players can play with control a forward defense shot? They won't like saying it and they won't like talking about technique, but technique wins in Test match cricket. And the technical side of England's players and batting has been found wanting. It got found wanting in the winter against Michael Neeson. It was found wanting against New Zealand just of late, against Nathan Smith, you know, with Matt Henry. We saw at Trent Bridge, um, the technical side of our quality players was found out. So those just below that ladder have got a lot of work to do, and the technical side of the coaching team is going to be very, very important to get this Test team playing good cricket, playing sensible cricket, but more importantly, winning the moment. And to win the moment, again, you know, mentioning technique in English cricket, it seems that it's been a word that we've not been allowed to use for a number of years. And, you know, the technical side of batting at the highest level is very, very important. So it's all right putting a really good leader of the group, but, you know, I think they need an also maybe one or two changes in the backroom team to make sure that these players are getting really well coached as well.

And just finally, are you excited?

Well, I'm on my holidays at the minute. Yes, I am. Um, look, I, I've been excited with English cricket, uh, many, many times, and I've been entertained over the course of the last few years by the England side. But, you know, fundamentally, they haven't won, you know, a 5-match series. We haven't won one for many, many years. We haven't won an Ashes series since 2015. Uh, Australia will arrive next summer. Um, with a very experienced group. And it is how Steven Fleming and Joe Root can get together to make sure that this England side, um, can win a Nations Series for the first time in what will be 12 years. And you won't want to lose that one because, uh, the next one's in Australia. And history tells you that winning in Australia is, uh, is that— is the tall order. Uh, so if I was Steven Fleming and Joe Root, I'd get to work quickly and make sure that this group of England players know exactly what they expect in terms of The style of personality is the one. You can never really say the style of cricket that you want to play because, as I've said before, you want to play the style of cricket that is required on that given day, that given hour. And that's really important for this group of players to understand that, you know, we don't want a team to be labeled as one team as playing the Baz ball. That's all, only the way that you play. Because as it's been proven over the last few years, if you play one style of play, teams will find you out. So England have got to be a side that can play all the different styles, the different kind of gears. And if they can get to that standard and they can somehow find an all-rounder and they can somehow convince Ben Stokes to play again next year, then I'll start to get excited, Henry.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Pop quiz: what's in your kids' lunchbox? At Whole Foods Market, they've already done the studying. Over 300 food ingredients are banned from their shelves. No hydrogenated fats in the peanut butter. And no high fructose corn syrup in the cookies. And for sandwiches, there are no synthetic nitrates or nitrites in any of their deli meat, so you can pack lunch boxes with peace of mind. Get back to school ready at Whole Foods Market.

Well, I'm pleased to say joining me now is the BBC's chief cricket commentator, Jonathan Agnew. Aggers, this is a fascinating day and a couple of very interesting appointments. What's your initial reaction?

Uh, yeah, it is. You're absolutely right. Uh, it's been a question of sort of eliminating, uh, likely suspects for the coach's job, hasn't it, over the last few weeks? Uh, one by one they seem to have fallen by the wayside, or actually not even been involved in the proceedings at all. I mean, speak like, you know, Justin Langer, uh, Darren Lehmann, who I spoke to a couple of days ago, uh, and I know would have been very interested in the job, um, was, was not interviewed for it. Uh, so whether they've just had one particular person in mind most of the way through it. I think once Andy Flower quite clearly ruled himself out, and I think that was always going to be the case, I think that was really was flying a kite to suggest that he would give up the work that he has to come and take on the England job again. But once that was made clear, it appears that there haven't been that many suspects, if you like, candidates for this. Stephen Fleming, well, I mean, I've worked with him quite a lot as a New Zealand Captain, uh, he's a traditional Test player, uh, a very, um, communicative, uh, interesting man. He's quite strong on the spirit of cricket. Uh, he will bring a more traditional feel, I imagine, to the Test game than Brendan McCullum did. That said, of course, he spent his time, or much of his time since retiring as New Zealand's captain, in, in, in franchise cricket and in the IPL, although did have a successful run at Nottinghamshire in the Championship. But, but he, he, he does have that, therefore, that influence to his game. But I think as far as Test cricket is concerned, he will bring a firm, solid, more traditional hand to the tiller, if you like, that has been the case over the last 2 or 3 years when really England, I think, really, they really, well, they sort of, they did lose their way and they didn't accept that there is a sort of a hard-working defensive side to Test cricket that is essential to success in Test cricket. And Steven Fleming was a very orthodox traditional opening batsman in Test cricket. And that's therefore what I imagine the sort of influence that he will bring, a lot along with Joe Root, uh, who, who again has clearly been preferred to Harry Brook. Or I suspect more likely for one of two reasons, or maybe both reasons, they want Harry Brook to remain as, as the white ball captain, and therefore the Test cricket job would be too much for him. But also whether or not he's actually suitable for that job yet. And as I've said before, to be England captain is more than simply somebody who just changes the field. To be England captain is actually quite a statesmanlike figure. And bear in mind that some of the woes that England have suffered off the field have been firmly laid at Brook's door over the last few months. And maybe they felt that was just a step too far. And he's got to concentrate on his game. I think most people would agree that certainly his Test match game has been disappointing. And so maybe this is the opportunity for him just to knuckle down a bit, focus on that, and we'll see how long Joe Root goes on for. But I imagine that they'll try and keep him on now until the end of the Ashes next year.

Any concerns over the impact it could have on somebody who England do rather rely on, I think it's fair to say, in that batting lineup?

Well, I—

yes, I mean, that's a fair comment, of course. Uh, you know, I think Joe Root was pretty much worn out of the captaincy when it all started to go wrong, and there was that long losing streak. Now, it wasn't helped obviously by COVID and the impact that that had in all sorts of ways on cricket, and the fact that they sort of had to keep playing in very difficult circumstances. And, you know, all the question of isolation and all of that— I mean, it was not a good time to be trying to play international sport, let alone be an international captain. You know, and I think once— I suspect what happened was, I mean, I'm only guessing here, but that it was felt that Harry Brook was not the right man to do it, and therefore who should? And in that case, there only is one other possible candidate to do it, and that is Joe Root. I'm sure they'd had to have run it past him. You don't just take the job back again without a great deal of thought. And obviously, yes, as you mentioned, the implications possibly on his game. Now, I was interested by Root's captaincy in the Oval Test match against New Zealand, where England had that awful period, if you remember, at the start of the day where they went into a short pitch bowling. They completely lost the plot, and it was so unlike Joe Root. And I'm, I'm just hopeful that that was more of the McCullum influence, uh, and Root just kind of doing more or less what he was told to do, rather than, rather than Joe Root's natural instinct for the game. I mean, he's a wonderful natural cricketer, he's hugely respected, and I, I think actually that Root and Fleming would be rather a good combination because you have got the IPL franchise influence on Fleming's thinking now, and so a more positive mindset, if you like. And Joe Root's always been a positive player anyway, but not, not what we've witnessed over the last couple of years.

In terms of Steven Fleming's style, clearly he and Brendan McCullum go back a long way. They share business interests, are, you know, two people that, that in many ways, you look at on paper, are cut from the same cloth. Former Kiwi captains and, and one thing and another. But what do you want to see from a coaching point of view that will see this side turning a corner? Because they need to.

Yeah, well, in terms of players, it's like comparing Geoff Boycott to Ben Duckett. You know, they're completely different opening batsmen, utterly different styles. You know, Fleming was a completely traditional left-handed opening batsman. Man, as you'd expect from a Test cricketer, and a very fine one too, incidentally. So, you know, we know how Brendan McCullum played, you know, a very free-spirited manner, which worked for him but doesn't work for everybody. So, I mean, I think they are very different characters. I mean, they're both very gregarious, affable companions, there's no doubt about that. But I would expect a much firmer grip on things from Steven Fleming, and not least because that's— that'd be part of the brief. You know, the ECB look at the, the landscape of English cricket at the moment, the men's game in any way, and they just see something that's been napalmed, basically. I mean, you know, the, the image of, of the England men's game is really awful, and that has to be addressed, not least for, uh, the fans, the spectators, but also the sponsors, the people that you know, put a lot of money into the game. The image of English cricket has to be drastically improved, and therefore that will have certainly come with— as far as the negotiations and the interviews that will have been conducted with Steven Fleming.

The opportunity to captain alongside Steven as coach is a huge motivator, says Joe Root. I mean, can an old dog learn new tricks and be a different captain, do you think, to who we saw from Root in his previous incarnation as England skipper?

Yeah, I suspect so. I mean, the captain and coach do rather bounce off each other, but as we know, ultimately it's the captain in cricket who, who, who makes the decisions and who makes the calls. And of course you have the influence, uh, from, from the coach, but ultimately you're out there on the field and it's, and it's up to you to do it. But I would think that Joe Root would see in Steven Fleming somebody with a much more similar mindset., as far as playing the game is concerned, than he would in Brendan McCullum. And, and we saw at the start of Bazball, if you call it that, um, you know, Joe Root really quite confused about how he should play. Um, and that gradually got worn out, and he just played in Joe Root's brilliant fashion. Uh, ultimately he, he just chose that that would be the way. I, I mean, he certainly won't be put into that sort of position, I don't think, with Steven Fleming. I, I think that they will actually think along very similar lines. As far as the way that Test cricket should be played. And that is that you can take a backward step, and you have to take a backward step sometimes. You know, it's a match over 5 days. That's the beauty of it. And so therefore, there is that ebb and the flow that people love so much about Test cricket, and which has been missing from the English game for the last couple of years. It's been flat out, all out. And that is not going to lead to a successful Test team., as we've seen.

Let's introduce Katie Martin as well to the conversation, former New Zealand wicketkeeper. Katie, lovely to have you with us. Uh, you know Stephen Fleming well. Is this a good appointment, and what's your initial thoughts on it all?

Afternoon. Anyone would think there was no jobs going on in New Zealand at the moment at the rate that English people want Kiwis. But yeah, look, I think it's a great appointment. Um, working with Flem and, and talking to the guys around him, he, he's a very thoughtful guy. Um, he's quite measured in the the way that he thinks and looks at the game, and quite a deep thinker of the game as well. He's— when I say he's a Cantab, a Canterbury player, he had an edge about him when he played, that competitiveness. I remember his 274 against Sri Lanka, and he was able to understand what was required in that situation as a player, and he's taken that philosophy and theory into his coaching aspect as well, that edge and that competitiveness, but being able to manage that around the development of the game. And I think, look, his relationship relationship with Brendan McCullum. They're lifelong friends, played a lot of cricket together, and good mates off the park as well. So I think that synergy will help white ball and red ball coaches working closely together. And I think he's probably got a good handle on the global game, obviously coming from the Super Kings franchise all around the world. He understands, on the back of a lot of discussions at the start of this summer here in England, how you manage players that are playing all three formats and also all franchise leagues as well. I think that calmness and that thoughtfulness will help with where England need to go in terms of managing Test matches a lot better in situations that they've been in the past.

Agus, does that sound like music to your ears?

Well, yes, absolutely. I mean, I think everybody who has been really sort of reporting, monitoring, and supporting English cricket over the last 2 years has found it a frustrating business because that there simply hasn't been any sort of openness to any conversation. You know, it is either it is done this way or that's it and that's the end of it. You know, we know the comments that there were around the ashes when actually people who were saying this is not going to be successful were shown to be right. And that's not a, you know, "Yabu sucks" to anybody in particular, but it's just that it was so absolutely cast in stone that this was the way that we're going to play. And that's it. And if you don't play in this manner, you ain't playing. And if you don't like the way we play, that's all right, we're not gonna listen. I'm not saying that Stephen Fleming will, you know, listen to people necessarily, but you have to adapt. You know, Test cricket is so multi-dimensional that you have to be— you have to take on other parts of playing the game. And there is, I keep saying, but it's utterly relevant, there is no shame or weakness weakness in going into a defensive mindset for a while in a Test match, because it's crucial that you are able to do that and you soak up pressure, and you soak it up rather than try and lob it onto the opposition, make a mistake, get it all wrong, and get, and get blown away, which is what we've seen in the last couple of years. So yes, I mean, you can call me an old traditionalist if you like, but actually, you know, but Test cricket is a traditional game. It is played in a way and has been for a long, long time for a reason. And that's because that generally is the way— if you play it better than anybody else, that's the way you're going to win Test matches, by being adaptable. And that's what I would like to see. And I think we will see that from Steven Fleming, um, you know, absolutely. I mean, my dealings with him have been, yes, thoughtful, interesting, uh, you know, nice sense of humor, as I mentioned, you know, gregarious, you know, a good companion, or all of those things. But he will have a hard edge to him, uh, to have had the success that he has had at the Super Kings and so on. You know, he will be used to managing people in quite difficult circumstances, people coming and going and franchises and all that sort of stuff, pressure from above, uh, from the owners and so on. So he'll, he'll, he'll have, he'll have taken all that, but now he's got his big challenge, and that is managing, coaching, uh, an international team, which he hasn't done before. And you can see why that is something that appeals to him.

Katie, can you understand why some might be concerned by that? And, and what, what about what Agar says, you know, the experience of playing in the IPL, something that you've covered, is— or coaching in the IPL rather— is something that does come with its own pressures?

Yeah, I mean, I mean, CSK and MS Dhoni are arguably the two most important people and franchises outside of obviously Mumbai in India. And to be able to, to deal with the situation and the egos that come with with IPL cricket is massive, and to have that success as well. I think it's understandable that people have questions. I think that was similar when Brendon come into the role, the fact that he's come from white-ball cricket, he's only really coached sort of in the IPL, and he's come in. But I think at the time, there was definitely a change that was needed in the approach. I think understanding Fleeman and how he goes about it, it'll be more of a refinement of probably what's been happening previously in the approach that's made, and he's got an opportunity to stamp his mark What I understand, he's keen for the long-term view of it rather than sort of cheap, successful wins. It's not a get started with a bang and a crash, it's refining and long-term growth. And I think you look at how he was as a player, and Aggers, you know, you've watched a lot of him as well. He talked a lot about not being the most skillful player, but he was, I always found he quite elegant to watch in the way that he went about it. But he had that gritty determination and he's had some of the most famous batting innings, you know, multiple double hundreds for New Zealand. Because he knew how to apply himself. And you sit beside him in the commentary box and when you just watch the way that he's looking at the game, he just watches out, he monitors across the field. You can see the cogs going in his brain thinking about, well, what would I do as a captain here? Where have they not quite got that right? What's the stage of the game? And it's the same thought process he goes through as a coach. He talked in this IPL about the fact that he had to, relearn or learn how the modern game's going and how to change the approach because of the struggles that CSK had had over the last couple of years. So, he's a great student of the game. I think the one thing that maybe people might say, well, what about England and playing in England and obviously the Ashes that will be in England next year? But I mean, he had a lot of success in domestic cricket, at county cricket. He won with Notts. He's the most successful New Zealand Test captain. And I think the timing of this really suits him after finishing up in the IPL. So he knows the conditions here in the UK, and he knows what's needed for players to be able to adapt. And I've got no doubt over the last few years, him and Brendon would have had lots of conversations about the approach of the England Test team. And he's a mentor for Brendon for such a long period of time. Even when he captained New Zealand, Brendon, he had Stephen Fleming there beside him helping him. So there'll be a nice synergy in terms of it's not gonna be throwing everything out, but what's been needed in the England Test team, I think Flem will be able to bring that rounding on it. I think will be questions of, of who's his assistants and who he'll bring in in terms of the expertise that he may need, um, outside of what currently is in there at the moment.

He was a worker, wasn't he? I mean, he was a, he was a graceful player. Yeah, but he was a hard worker. I mean, you're right, he would say that he's not the most talented player, but that he, he knuckled down and he, and he made himself a good player. I think that's what I like about his credentials for this coaching job. In that he will expect that similar sort of attitude from his players.

Well, thank you, Katie. Thank you, Agus, as well. If you want to read more about these appointments, you can do so on the BBC Sport website and app. And don't forget, that Test series between England and Pakistan begins on August 19th, 10:25 on Sports Extra. And BBC Sounds today at the Test will bring you highlights every single day as well on BBC television. So many ways to follow what is a new era for England's Test side. Between now and then, don't forget, every ball of every game of the Hundred is available for you to listen to, with, uh, 8 doubleheaders in there as well for you to watch on BBC Two and the iPlayer. Plus, we've got a highlight show available on the iPlayer and the BBC Sport YouTube channel. Don't forget, subscribe to the TMS podcast on BBC Sounds, and we'll have plenty more on this, uh, remarkable story, I think it's fair to say, in the coming days. Thank you so much for listening. We'll speak to you soon.

This goes beyond what the KGB did back in the days.

Conspiracy theories and the Football World Cup—

is there ever one without the other? Well, I've been digging into one of the very best. Back in 1994, a guy from Iraq gets a red card for a, you know, a dubious tackle. I'm James Montague, and from BBC 5 Live, This is Sport Strangest Crimes presents Shadows on the Pitch. Listen on BBC Sounds.