From The Ashes: David Larter

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Hello, I'm Stefan Shemelt and welcome to from the Ashes, a series of Test match special podcasts with those who've seen, played and lived some incredible Ashes moments.

Here's Broad comes in bowls, carries edge.

It is out and Stuart Broad takes.

The final wicket in a dream finale. Broad comes in and bowls to Agar.

Agar swings the short ball away. He could be caught.

He's out. He's caught in the D. He's out for 98. A wonderful debut comes to an end. In goes Bickel, dashing up and fouls outside the off stump. He laces it through the offside. He won't go for four, it'll certainly go for one. That's all that Michael Vaughan wants. He goes back for the second. He's got his helmet off, his bat is raised and Michael Vaughan scores his first century against Australia. Harris bustles in, balls to him. Oh, he's caught behind.

It's wide.

He flashed at it and he's walked. The umpire didn't give him out, he walked off. And that's a big wicket. My word.

Well, the Ashes are almost here. England have arrived in Australia and are Preparing for the first Test in Perth on 21st November. Their journey down under would have been one of comfort. Airport lounges, business class, flights, beds in the sky. How different to the days when touring parties travelled the 10,000 miles by boat with weeks and weeks at sea. The last time England undertook such a journey was for the 196263 Ashes. And even then it was relatively short compared to previous tours of Australia. On this occasion, they flew part of the way to aden before spending 10 days at sea to reach Perth. Now in the squad was fast bowler David Larter. At 22, he was only two years into a first class career with Northamptonshire and was the youngest player in the group, led by Ted Dexter and rubbing shoulders with legendary names like Colin Cowdery, Fred Truman and Raymond Illingworth. Lauter is now 85 and I went to meet him at his home in mid Wales for the story of England's last Ashes tour to be undertaken by boat. This is from the Ashes, David Larter.

David, firstly, thank you for inviting us into your home here in the. In the beautiful Welsh countryside. Where did cricket come from? How were you introduced to the game?

Cricket came from school, most definitely. I went to a good school called Framlingham College. Framlingham in Suffolk is where we lived and I was a day boy there, and it was certainly on the curriculum, along with rugby and hockey and athletics and whatever, but cricket, the summer belonged to cricket and I just played it and enjoyed it. And with my size and physique, I was already bigger and perhaps stronger than some of the others, and I was bowling fair, fair rate and became known as a fast bowler, even junior, junior sort of level.

What did the Ashes mean to you? What is your earliest Ashes memory, maybe, and what were the. The players that you can remember playing Ashes cricket?

Well, the Ashes came into my life fairly early on because we had a local cinema in Framingham and the news, Pathy Pathe News with the. The big camera going. I think it was used to feature sports things. And I remember watching Ray Lindall, the Australian, run across this screen with this lovely rhythmical pumping action and then the big heave and woomp. And I thought that's, you know, that's good, and that it must have wakened up the idea of Australia, England and the Ashes. And the funny thing is, I finished up opening the bowling with Ray Lindwell in Karachi, I think it was, we were playing. So from seeing him, and I'm about 10 years old or 12 years old, something like that, seeing him on the screen and then playing actually with him is all part of that schoolboy's dream.

Before we get into the journey, because that's primarily what we're here to talk about, I'd like to ask, what does a tour manager do? And that's before we introduce who the tour manager for this particular trip was, I think it's important. But what was the role of a tour manager?

Yeah, he's the figurehead and he is the spokesperson. Certainly even today, I think if you have a manager of the tour, that's who you go to for your original permissions to do this, to speak to somebody, and then at official functions, because.

They'Re quite sociable events, weren't they?

Yeah.

You'd be expected to turn up to lots of different things.

Yes. And it could also, I suppose, in a way, be determined the group disciplinarian, in a way, because he could tell you what to do and what not to do. More likely off the field rather than on the field. So he would set standards and generally be the man that steers the ship.

And the tour Manager for the 1962, 63 Ashes was the 16th Duke of Norfolk. Yes, Bernard Fitzsten Howard. What was he like?

He was a big surprise because he knew an awful lot more about cricket than we thought collectively. I think there was a bit of a sigh that went round when he was named as the manager. What? Not who, but what, but he knew what was going on. He really did. And he also had a crisp sort of sense of humour. The lads sometimes get in, jokes going and all kinds of things happening in the dressing room. And he was there, he knew what was going on and he wasn't a stranger to the dressing room. It wasn't that he was whisked away by people. Lots of people wanted to know him and he did meet and greet an awful lot. But he was equally at home with us, as long as you had to respect the fact that he was of royal descent, if you like, and he had several titles and so forth. And you, you didn't, you weren't cheeky to him. Put it like that.

How did you have to address him.

First thing in the morning? The first time you saw him, it was your grace. If you were introducing him to anybody, it was his grace or your grace, his grace, Duke of Norfolk. After that, it could be sir for the rest of the day, once you'd greeted him. So there was that mark of respect there. A bit like the forces and officers and that kind of thing. You knew who to salute and who not to.

I think. He was obviously a prominent figure on the tour and we'll talk more about him as we go on.

But the journey touring had a rather sedate image. Cricketers, unlike football superstars, did not aspire to the social jet skill. They travelled for weeks by boat to play overseas. There were fewer tests and none of the frenzy of the modern day game. Discipline was tight. The players had plenty of time off between matches to spend their pocket money. Cricket was not big business.

This was new, wasn't it? Partly because there was a plane part of it, there was a flight part to Aden and that was, I don't know, revolutionary, wasn't it, to be taking that part of the journey by plane?

Yes, well, you see, instead of a three week ship journey, it was just a ten day.

Just a ten day, yeah.

And it was the first time, the first time it had been done. We got a BOAC, as it was then, flight from Heathrow direct. Did we Go anywhere else? No, I think we went direct to Aden, which is where we picked up the camera. The Canberra was sitting there sort of more or less waiting for us, if you like. And we had a day, had about a day in Aden, looking around and then we were off. 10 days, then across the Indian Ocean.

How did the idea of flying part of it go down with some of the players? Because straight away you think, oh, they must think that's great. You know, they're not on a boat for so long. But some of the players actually saw that as the time on the boat as a positive for a couple of reasons. One, to rest up after a long county season, but two, to gradually acclimatise to the changing temperature. The further south you go, the warmer it is. When you get to Australia, you have gradually acclimatised rather than just now. When players fly there they go. From the English autumn dropped into the heat of Australia. So is there anyone who wasn't actually. We're not sure about this, or was it all a positive to be taking that bit of dinner?

I would say more the positive. People enjoyed it, whether it was the previous three week trip or even the trip that we did. You enjoyed it being on a huge ocean liner like that and the life that is afforded while you were on there. And I don't think anybody in the group I was with that was jittery about it or worried about it. No.

And so 10 days on the boat from Aden. What do you do in that time?

In my case, you eat. Honestly, I've never had, before or since, such a sustained spell of just magnificent eating. Because we were first class. That's the amazing thing. The MCC in their wisdom, paid for whatever they got. They got a negotiated rate, no doubt.

Because at that point the MCC were in charge of. Yeah, in charge of the tour, but.

It was first class. Now, what we got was a mixture of old millionaires who were sort of sitting there, who are just taking a bit of sun in on their trip, and us and the stewards just loved us because they'd bring these great trolleys full of wonderful food and they knew we'd eat it. Whereas the old, richer people, you know, perhaps were more picky. Anyway, that was one of the big things. What do you do? Yeah, you could be bored stiff, but we used to have an exercise session in the morning, get a reasonable breakfast and up and then a bit of what they were really probably badminton courts or that kind of things. They were sort of netted off for us and we used to shove weights about and jump up and down and things like that. But that's when this Yorkshireman called Gordon Perry came into the picture. Somebody found out he was on the boat and he was invited to come and organizers.

Gordon, who was an athlete.

Yes, yeah, yeah. Well known, very well known at the time. But he. He was on the boat to Australia for. To take his family out there and he turned up with his shorts on and he decided that the best exercise would be running around the boat. It's quite a long way around one of those big boats. And one certainly Fred Truman voiced an opinion which meant that he was. No way was he running around a bloody boat. He just didn't. That wasn't what we did to get fit. To get fit, we played cricket. That was what it's about. Because in those days, they do pretty well today. But in those days we used to be six days a week solid cricket. And that's where you got your. Not strength, but that's where you got your ability to stick with it, go through minor injuries and push that sort of thing. And this is what you did. And I know Fred had said he just bowled whatever it was, 13 or 1500 overs or something in an England sea season and he wasn't going to run around a bloody boat for anybody. And the Gordon Perry thing just died off.

What, what was your stance? Were you. Were you happy to run around as the young lad or were you following Fred's lead?

I did. No, I did what I was told. Fred had already got a reputation for being slightly obstreperous about this and that. And I think if you got too associated, then, you know, you'd have been tarred with the same brush. And not that I got on famously with Fred, I really did. I enjoyed his company all the way through, but no, I did what I was told.

You mentioned that there were obviously other passengers on the boat. Were they aware of who you guys were? And certainly the bigger names, like your Dexters and your Trumans and your Stathams and was, I don't know, a celebrity status. Did they want to be around you? Did they want to socialize with you?

That didn't happen that much. Certainly up in the first class end, I think they knew. Yes. Who these were people, business people and that kind of thing, traveling backwards and forwards or maybe just moneyed people who've got interest both in England and Australia. They were fine. I won't even use words like tolerated or acknowledged or what. They were fine. That was okay. We found the greatest sort of reception. If you like was, if you like downstairs there were people immigrating and moving and so forth for all sorts of reasons. A lot of them were young, going out there to make new lives and everything, something we, we knew nothing about. So it was interesting to meet them. And there were a couple of, well, more than a couple of decent bars. You could, you could, you can have a quiet pint up in the top. It was more champagne. So we, I think my, my, my impression anyways of, of the journey we did, we got on well with whatever up the top or below.

And what about, I don't know, it must have been great for team spirit and morale because there would have been a lot of those players that you didn't know actually you would have meeting for the first time when you got on the play. And so as a, you know, it's a bonding exercise when you're going to take on a five, six month tour of, of Australia. Yeah, that must have been quite, quite something.

Yeah, I would say it did happen. Certainly did. You shared a cabin and you were allotted somebody before you even got there. I shared a cabin with Len Caldwell who played for Worcester. Unfortunately, you know, from the first minute we're fine, we got on well, that was great. And I think I can't sort of come up with an example of people who didn't get on. People, people did. And yes, as you say, the meals and the exercises and so forth and relaxation even was a time for bonding. And by the time we got to Perth then you got a coherent unit that was ready to sort of move as one almost.

It must have been fabulous for this young lad from Suffolk who only a couple of years beforehand was working in insurance to all of a sudden be first class on the boat from Aden to Perth. And he just said, eating all the, all the food and everything that goes with it. What an experience for a 22 year old.

Yeah, you just encapsulated it, you just said it, you know, that is, it's out of, almost out of reach. It's out of this world. It was, I was 22 by then. It was really was schoolboy stuff and it was expected, you know, to go on further. There was quite a fuss when we got to Australia about me and what I was going to do to all these Australians and in fact finish up not doing anything at all.

I guess the point I'm making is that if, I don't know, we asked Ben Stokes or Joe Root or Harry Brooke to get on the boat at the minute and travel to Australia in that way. They might not take too kindly to it, but you guys actually saw it as a privilege and something to be enjoyed.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was part of the tours and I've seen comments from Australians where it is backwards the other way as well. They loved it. They loved the boat to England. It's, as you said, about weather conditions. Perhaps it slowly sort of got them used to European weather. With us, it was the other way around. Although we were dropped in it a bit in Aden. It was a bit warm. But then we had those days before.

Australia, a crucial bit of the boat journey. Maybe just clarify this for me. Did you hop off and play in Colombo?

Yes.

Is that how it went?

Yes. Yeah.

So again, you know, bringing it forward to the present day, imagine England tuning up for an Ashes tour by playing a game in Colombo when the ball is, I don't know, turning and all those sorts of things. Then pitching up to play in Perth when it's, you know, bouncing at head high. What was that like?

Yeah, well, it was weird for me because we're playing against whatever they wanted to call themselves. Colombo, Sri Lanka. Well, it was still Colombo and they'd got a reasonable cricket side out there. And we walked out on the field and Ted Dexter said to me, you can open the bowling. Yep. So I marked out a run, ran in and fell flat on my face just. Just before delivery stride. A real sprawler. Ah, right. Picked myself up, went back up the run and came in again and did exactly the same. I'd lost. I'd lost my legs, lost my land legs. They weren't going where I wanted.

And because you'd been on the boat.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Ted came across, he said, well, what's wrong? I said, well, just. Just can't get there. That don't work. Because you probably know enough about bowling to know that as you run in, you're going to the last two or three strides, you're going to starting to turn and then there's almost a double bit where. And that was the bit whack. And if I carried on and he took me off, I think Barry Knight had to finish, finish the over off. So that was my experience. But the experience, yes, we were entertained, looked after, if you like, by the British army, it was. Who were out there for some reason or other. And they put on a big barbecue for us on the beach and then. Yeah, that's the kind of thing that. How are you going to get to that from a small village? Well, small town in Suffolk or something. You know, you're on the beach in Ceylon with all these nice people. So it, that was an eye opener as much as anything else. Just stopping there because me, I hadn't even been out of the country before then. That was my first sort of real trip out of the country going to Australia on the tour.

So including the time that you've spent in Sri Lanka to play that game, how long is it between boarding the boat in Aden and getting off in Perth? Roughly how long would you.

I always say 10 days. And I think that that was probably about it. Yeah.

And what was it like arriving in Perth? Was, was it an event? Were you greeted by Aussie media and people or was there very little attention given to you?

No, it was quite quiet. There was more attention given by customs and those people, they knew we'd been in Colombo and they knew we'd kept certain part of our kit back so that we could play in Colombo. They wanted it boots in particular. And it was strange, you've got Australian customs officials cleaning your boots for you because they have.

They wouldn't wanted the soil or anything.

Coming into Australia borne diseases. After that we were met and greeted by a group of volunteers really they were. Who were West Australian Cricket Club members who were our taxis runners about. There was no great speeches or anything. They came up a little bit later probably in the evening because I call it was morning I think when we got in.

I wanted to ask about maybe some of the attention that was on you as tourists and this isn't necessarily when you first arrived in Perth but maybe as the tour developed for a couple of reasons. One, Ted Dexter's wife Susan was a. Was a model.

That's right, yeah.

Of course David Sheppard was, was ordained.

Yep.

And our friend the Duke of Norfolk potentially had his, his horses running or was socializing in all different. Wherever you happen to go.

Yeah.

So for those three reasons, Susan, Susan Dexter, David Sheppard and the Duke of Norfolk. And did Fred Truman maybe take slight exception to that that maybe there wasn't all. There was more attention on you guys off the field as there was on the field.

I don't think Fred in particular was the wanted anything did anything strange. But it was almost a dividing dividing of the camp in that these were the amateurs and the rest professionals. You see all three of those forgive the Duke because he'd got a few million but the others, they brought their wives out, that is Ted Dex's wife. And that never occurred to us, never seemed part and parcel of what we could, could possibly do. And suddenly they, they got their families There on their own expense. I will add. It's not like today where there are allowances for the women, but I don't know, I don't think it caused any real upset or problem. No.

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And I want to ask about the Duke in Australia. How was he, how was he as a figurehead? Was he entertaining when you're turning up to the dinners that you're expected to, what was he doing away from the cricket? Did he have his horses running in races? How was it touring with the Duke of Norfolk?

You didn't. Oh well, I didn't socialize with him. He. When we were in Perth, I thought he did very well. He invited us all to dinner two at a time. So Len and I went and had a meal with him, dinner. And he was very good in that he wanted to know who you were, where and what and why. So that was a good introduction to him. It made more familiar just seeing him around. But his movements, social movements if you like, were way above us, you know, several scales above us. We would not be in the same class and I don't think even the so called amateurs were he had, you see he's in all his own contacts or whatever. So if he was off gone somewhere, Rolls Royce would turn up to pick him up and he'd just sort of wave him goodbye for the evening.

The 62, 63 series, five Test matches, 25, 26 is going to be five Test matches. That is where the comparison ends because Ben Stokes, his team this year are going to play one warm up game against the England Lions in Perth a week before the first test. And then there is another game on the tour which is an England Lions team playing against the Prime Minister's 11 between the first and second Tests. Yeah, you guys played 27 matches in Australia including the five Tests and you went everywhere. Kalgoorlie, Griffith, Toowoomba, Hobart, Port Lincoln, Newcastle, Canberra, Dubbo. And that's not, I haven't mentioned that the venues for the test matches.

Yeah, yeah.

How was that like? And, and often these games were close together so were you, Were you flying around? Is that what it was like? And you know, you were crisscrossing Australia for four or five.

Australia. There's a good deal of flying. Yes. And they're. It's like getting on a bus almost. They're used to it. It's difficult to say what we felt then. What I feel now is. Yes. You know, these, these fellows, they. What are they saying? What are they crying about? There's nothing. You know the stuff we did. Yeah. There's an awful lot of cricket. It was day after day after day. You'd be flying into somewhere, Adelaide or somewhere like that, and six, seven or eight o' clock at night and eight o' clock the next morning you're off to the ground. So it was a non stop cricket. There weren't that many of us. I think about 16, 17, something like that. And I almost don't see a comparison. I don't say they're soft and they're whatever these days, but. And they do an awful lot of long traveling. I mean, we were in the country and that was it. Apart from Tasmania. We stayed in the country, but. Yeah. God knows how many thousand miles we clocked up.

Do you remember what you did at Christmas? How was that celebrated?

It was good. It was good, that tour. I remember we were in Adelaide and we'd been booked in a big hotel out of Adelaide and on the beach. Brilliant. And Christmas dinner was on the beach. A barbecue type thing on the beach. And that was surreal, really. I mean, how does an Englishman take, you know, his Christmas dinner on the beach? A few messages backwards and forwards, that kind of thing with the folks at home. Yeah. It was almost a surprise to us to find that the Australians, you know, celebrated Christmas just enormous as much as we did in a different way. You get your shorts on and your suntan rather than all wrapped up in a great overcoat.

But by that point, Christmas Day, you'd only played one test match. You'd left home at the end of September, beginning of October. The first test match was drawn in Brisbane. I think it's important to stress at the moment the Australians were holders of the Ashes. That becomes important later on. So drawn first test match in Brisbane. The second Test in Melbourne. England won. That included a rest period for New Year. It was played over the New Year period. The third Test in Sydney. England lost because being shot out for quite a low score in the third innings. And the last two tests were drawn. There were two test matches in Sydney because at that point Perth wasn't. Wasn't a test match venue. And I guess an important thing to stress at this point is you didn't play in those five Test matches. You went all around Australia, all those cities that we've just mentioned, and you didn't play. You'd been talked up. Yeah. How was that for you?

A little depressing. It did knock me back a bit. And to jump forward, I was very pleased to take a bag full of wickets when we got to New Zealand, almost that showed them, because I was left out, I think would be a good expression, rather than just dropped because I wasn't there to be dropped. But I was left out because of this business of quick bowlers don't bat. And I don't think Ted Dexter or Alec Betser wanted three wickets at the end, three places at the end of the batting order where you couldn't rely on them for a few runs. So he was looking for the other all rounders. Barry Knight came into the equation. Barry was a pretty good bowler, but he could bat as well, so. So he got the position and I just didn't.

Did you feel like you were ever close to playing? Did you feel like you could, you know, we talked about all these other games that were going on.

Yeah.

Did you feel like you could push your case in those games or was it, I'm competing with Statham and Truman. It's so hard to get past those.

Yeah. We played Western Australia and an Australian 11, I believe, in Perth at the end of our sort of introductory training period. And I got wickets and I know I made them sit up a bit and jump around a bit. Now, Perth in particular then was pretty quick and it really whizzed through and I didn't take it as an automatic at all, but I thought then that that was fine. You know, I'd booked a place. Obviously I hadn't, you see. Won't come into this, but a good deal later we got back here, there's the West Indies tour, there's another Australian tour. Guess who's 12th man? About 10 bloody times. Excuse the language. It really was getting to me a bit then. It was a bit frustrating. Used to go away in county cricket, you know, six foot seven for whatever, and get picked and push out again.

Can you tell me when you're left out of those test matches, is it 12th man duties as we know them now, or was actually the 12th man a lot busier back then because it would have been a small touring party and you're doing everything for the guys that are playing?

No, you could find Somebody from the home side, whatever area, district it was, would start to help on, say halfway through the first day and then through the rest of the match they would help. But you're still 12th man and the initial 12th man. Yes, it was serious, you know, you had your blazer on and everything and almost carried the drinks. But no, no, you could get off. I used to get off and go practice in the nets and stuff like that.

And just as a final thought on that Australian part of it, how did you enjoy Australia? I mean, you've said yourself that was basically the first time that you'd left the country as a 22 year old who hadn't long been working in insurance.

Yeah.

How did you find it?

Yeah, I nearly made a decision to go back there. I got offered about three jobs just by talking to people and I wasn't married or anything then and I nearly thought, well, this is the place for me. And you know, that to me speaks volumes. I liked Australia, I liked New Zealand, but I liked Australia. I think there was a wider opportunity there and yeah, I almost moved there.

You just alluded to it, the fifth Ashes Test ended on 5 February. You've been away now since the end of September, beginning of October and then remarkably, three more test matches. Yeah, in New Zealand. So firstly, how did you get there? Was that a flight or was that another boat trip?

No, no, that was a flight.

That was a flight. But we've now got three more test matches beginning on the 23rd of February.

Yeah.

Adelaide, Wellington, Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch. You played all three? England won all three. And you were in the wickets.

Yeah.

Did you feel like you had, I don't know, proved a few people wrong?

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And two or three of the lads, well, more than that, four or five of the lads thought the same. I got support, but from non effective support, you know, just from the other, what I call lads, Len, for example, Peter Parford, John Murray or people like that, they all wondered why the hell I didn't play. But there you go.

Yeah, six months away, it's time to come home. Firstly, how did you get home? Was there another boat journey? Straight on the plane?

Yep.

Where? I don't know. Where are you stopping on the way? Is it the same route back or are we flying?

Yeah, from that trip, straightforwardly doing the normal route, I think, you know, the Singapore, the Cairo, the whatever that, that way. There is another way across the Pacific. I'd done that before, but no, it his flight, economy class, would you believe.

For a man as well, of Your height as well. Six foot eight. How was that?

Well, you used to pray for them for a plane not to be full because you've got to take your seat for takeoff and then look around and see where there's a double that was empty, uncomfortable.

And again, what was it like coming home because you just had six months in the Southern hemisphere.

Yeah.

A little while to acclimatize and all those things.

Get back to the cold and the mistake and whatever. It's a question of adjusting. And as I got on over that sort of five, six years I was playing, you know, I had several adjustments. Australia, India, whatever, in different places. Africa, a bit like they've got to today, I suppose. They've got to take in whatever's happening mostly, really, weather wise. Talking about where. Yeah, sure. There's a bit of a shock change if you.

You played. You played six more Test matches after that, that initial 62, 63 tour, and you were part of the 65, 66 Ashes tour, one that was done exclusively by playing.

Yep.

And again, you didn't play a test match on that tour. No, but how was it? Was that a different experience? Was the. Was the taking the entire trip by plane, was that different? Was it poorer for it?

Actually, I don't think so. You got more time for cricket. Yes. And funnily enough, less time for practice. There were even more cricket, serious cricket matches shoehorned in. You get the odd Sunday match and things like that. Yeah, that tour, that was it. That was the finish. It was a shame, it was a disaster. I should have come home. So we bowled them out in Western Australia again and we moved across and we were in Sydney and it was only about third or fourth match and I ran up and just turned this ankle over and that was it, end of career. But everybody kept saying, oh, it'll get better. Did it hell. And I think, yeah, I should have gone over. I was called into a little meeting with Mike Smith and Billy Griffiths, who was the manager, and they said, you know, would you like to stay? Will you stay? Because it will get better. They got the same story and I became an assistant assistant manager, if you like. Lots of things, procure of whatever, keepsakes and things like that, provider of motor cars and so forth, because I knew people. Anyway, that finished my career. I came back here and again tried again. People said, it'll be all right, it'll get better. And he just didn't. So backed up about 60, don't know, 66. 60, probably 66, yeah. Last time I played.

Seriously, you talked about, you know, the ankle injury that ultimately ended your career. And we've just talked about two Ashes tours that you were on and didn't play. Right at the start of this conversation you talked about the young boy who saw the, the footage in the cinema of Ray Lindwald bowling. I guess. How deep of a regret is it that you didn't get the chance to play Ash's cricket?

Well, very much. That's a good word. Afterwards I even went anti, I didn't want to know. I was offered two or three avenues coaching, being a. One of the big schools and being the cricket professional that and just said no, don't want to know. Went off to completely different. My old man was all his contractor, so I went off and more or less joined him after a couple of abortive little jobs and I shoved it away, gave it away and looking back, I don't know that I could have done that any differently. It was me, I. That was it. Finish. And.

You hint at, I don't know, you know, a sadness or a bitterness towards the end of your career and maybe not playing an Ashes test match. And there was a time when you put cricket to one side and you didn't want to know, but the way we've just spoken about your experience, you seem to reflect on it with, with great fondness. So having put, you know, time between you and the end of your career, how do you reflect on particularly that 62, 63 tour when you were on the boat and it just sounded like the time of your life?

Yeah, it was unbelievable. And I mean that in its proper sense. You, you couldn't believe it was going to happen, but it did. And I had, apart from the non appearance in test matches, I just had the time of my life. It was wonderful to see such a different place and experience high class, good class cricket. I mean, playing against South Australia, who walks out to bat? Garfield Sobers, that kind of thing. You think? Anyway, that's the kind of thing I remember and enjoy remembering.

And the food.

Oh yes. Yeah. They're a carnivorous nation, you know, the Aussies and you get lots of lovely steaks and whatever. Yeah, yeah, enjoyed that.

Just as two final points. When you look at how the England team are going to undertake a Tour now in 2025, how different it is the experience that you had compared to what those guys are going to have this year. And I wonder if in some ways it's a poorer experience that they're going to have compared to what you, what you had.

I'm not sure. How much they can relax and enjoy what they're doing. In other words, play during the day and then relax in the evening. Even have an odd day off at the weekend. It used to be traditional with us. Sunday was off. Didn't have to go to church, but, you know, nevertheless, it seems to me to be all of a rush. I read the paper and I think, good God. The other in the West Indies. What are they doing now? They're in Hong Kong or somewhere playing now they're in Australia. That. That would. Think that that would be a bit much for me. It's such a quicker pace. Maybe we played more cricket, but the pace that they play up today. But again, the rewards are there, aren't they? They. I see these lads, you know what they're getting, but certainly nothing like us. A trip to Australia, you say, six months, 1250 quid, that's it. That's your fee for the tour. And you take your own spending money, as it were. So that's the great difference. It was a pleasure to be a professional cricketer, but it wasn't profitable, particularly.

Just you mentioned that, the fee of your 1250 pound. Do you have any contact with home while you were there? Putting you through all the operators and.

No, no, never thought of it, no. Wasn't offered. Never thought of it. No. No. You get letters and air mails. We used to get yesterday's Telegraph sent through to the dressing room in air mail form. It used to be thin, thin paper. By the time I got round to the sixth or seventh reading, that was it. It was in bits.

And just going back to the comparison between your experience and what they're going to have this time. Do you think you had more fun?

Yes, yes, I do. It's this business again of exposure, intrusion almost where. The same with the footballers, the golfers, whoever. You can't walk down the street. I know full well. I have personally walked into a fairly crowded London pub, say, and people are going to notice that much. And you say, and that's it, you're fine, you just have a beer. They've just said, well, look at him. And that's it. Now, I think you get about half a dozen hangers on. Somebody else wants to take, you know, several photographs or whatever and it's just all the time.

Last question, would you swap with them? Would you swap with the. With the class of 2005?

Yeah, I see what you mean. I honestly don't know. I need to be weighing up the rewards, wouldn't I? What am I getting? Bit of notoriety or fame or whatever. I'm getting a lot of money, yes, I'm getting the experience of travel, etc. Seriously? Don't know. I don't know.

It's been an absolute joy to talk to you. Thank you very much.

I've done some rabbiting.

That was from the Ashes with David Larter. Previous episodes in this series feature Stuart Broad, Michael Vaughan and Ryan Harris. You can find them all on BBC Sounds. Make sure you're subscribed to the Test Match Special podcast so you get a notification every time we upload. We'll be bringing daily podcast from Australia during the Ashes, which is now less than two weeks away. It all gets underway on Friday 21st November and TMS will have live ball by ball commentary from Perth. That's it for now. We'll speak to you next time.

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