From The Ashes: Michael Vaughan

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

AI agents are everywhere, automating tasks and making decisions at machine speed.

But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails.

And rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents, not risk.

Accelerate your AI transformation at rubric that's R U B R-I K dot com this is the story of the one.

As head of maintenance at a concert hall, he knows the show must always go on. That's why he works behind the scenes, ensuring every light is working, the H.

Vac is humming, and his facility shines.

With Grainger's supplies and solutions for every challenge he faces.

Plus 24. 7 customer support.

His venue never misses a beast. Call quickgranger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done. Hello, I'm Stefan Shemuelt and welcome to from the Ashes, a series of test match special podcasts with those who've seen, played and lived some incredible Ashes moments. Here's Broad comes in, bowls carries edge. It is out and Stuart Broad takes the final wicket in a dream finale. Broad comes in and bowls to Agar. Agar swings the short ball away. He could be caught. He's out.

He's caught in the deck.

He's out for 98. A wonderful debut comes to an end. In goes Bicker dashing up the balls outside the off stump. He laces it through the offside. He won't go for four. It'll certainly go for one. That's all that Michael Vaughan wants. He goes back for the second. He's got his helmet off, his bat is raised and Michael Vaughan scores his first century against Australia. Harris bustles in, balls to him. Oh, he's caught behind. It's wide. He flashed at it and he's walked. The umpire didn't give him out, he walked off.

And that's a big wicket.

My word, Michael Vaughan is the England captain who delivered the longed for triumph in the greatest series of all time. He will always be synonymous with the glory of 2005. For Vaughan, personal success against Australia first came almost three years earlier on the 2002, 2003 Tour Down Under, England lost 41 to Steve War's Australians, arguably the best team to ever play Test cricket. But Vaughan made three hundreds and piled up 633 runs. Learning along the way how he could win back the Ashes. I went to meet him at his home in Cheshire to find out how 2002, 2003 shaped what would come in 2005. This is from the Ashes. Michael Vaughan Michael Series from the Ashes is about players who've got prominent Ashes stories and how the Ashes has impacted their life and what they went through. You more than anyone were sitting in your house. Now, would this, all of this exist without the Ashes? Is the impact that it's had on your life?

I doubt it. Who knows where my life would have gone if I not had success in I guess, two Ashes series. But I was like most young kids playing the game, watching and listening to so many Ash's series. You know, looking back at 821 and listening to Test Match Special, you know, 86, 87. Early in the morning when I should have been going to school, I wanted to listen. Trying to take a radio to school to see what the score was and wasn't any phones in those days where you could just have a look at X to find out what the score was. But the dreams of playing cricket are one thing, the dream of representing your country is another. But to play in an Ashes series, it's always the pinnacle. And again, I always go back to the 80s. There was that computer game, I can't even remember what it was called, but it was on my spectrum 48K. And I used to always play England versus Australia. You know, we had all the names like Gat Gower in our team and Australia, the likes of Lillian and Thompson was in that team. And I used to always think if one day I could just play at Ashes series in just one game.

This isn't about 2005 because I think you must have talked about 2005. I don't know every day of your life since then. But what I did want to ask is how much of an impact does that have on your life today? Still 05. How often do you get asked about it? How often does it come up?

I mean, all the time. But I guess that's why it was so special. And I'm allowed to say that now. You know, I think 20 years on and when you still get people in the street, you know, I've been golfing in Scotland, you know, playing with South Africans, playing with American people and they talk about 2005. And you know, I think the biggest strength of 05 is when you get a 30 to 33 year old who comes up to you and says, you know, I got into cricket because of 05. I guess that's the biggest achievement of that series. Of course we won and you know, it was Spectacular. But the biggest achievement was to get more people interested in cricket. And I think that's what your job is as a team and as a player throughout the time that you play. At the end of it, if you can kind of retire or your team can kind of say, right, that's it, we're kind of moving on with a new group. If at the moment that you all disperse and you all disappear into the. Into this, which is pretty much what happens. You know, we just had a few beers with the 05 side just a week or so ago and literally it's been 20 years that some of us haven't seen each other. You know, I think people think that when you win big series in big moments, I think people think that you meet every Sunday morning and have a brew. It's just not what happens. So, yeah, to think that people got into the game, and that's why I look at this England side now and think, you know what, whatever happens with them, if they can win a big series like the series that we're going to go to in Australia, they're going to be remembered forever because they're going to play a style of cricket that people like watching. And I do think it's important that you play that style. I do think sport is about yet winning. You win, and at times you win at all costs. But if you can win by getting people excited and getting people on the edge of their seats and getting people talking in the cafe bars about the style of play or the little bit of controversy that you've kind of created, or the flamboyant moments that you've kind of delivered, I think you'll always go down and you'll always be remembered.

The reason I ask about the impact that 2005 has had on your life. When we talk about 2002, 03, you only played 10 Ashes Tests, and in your first Ashes series In Australia in 02 03, England lost 4 1. It could have been 5 nil because you're 40 down after 4, but you made 633 runs. Only two other men this century to go to Australia as a visiting batter have made more than 600 runs in a series. Alistair Cook, Virat Kohli, you made three hundreds. You're man of the series. The question is, does 2005 happen without O2 03?

No. No chance. No chance. No. I. I mean, first and foremost, 22, 23 was just. Oh, it was a roller coaster. I'd had a great summer in 22 against Sri Lanka in India. I'd scored quite a few runs and found a little bit of rhythm, found a bit of a movement with my batting, found a mechanism of thought once I got to 20 and 30, rather than just think, oh, that was enough to go on and be a more dominant player. That's just confidence and a bit of experience. But what happened in Australia was, was very interesting. You've got to remember at the start of 2002, there was no sign I was going to be the captain. I'd captain England on 19s and captain on A side, but there was no real hint really around that time that I was going to be the next England captain. So I wasn't thinking of a leader at all then. But I always look back at Yorkshire, actually, and we had overseas pros like Greg Blewett, Matthew Elliot, Michael Bevan, and then Darren Lehman arrived. And I always remember Darren Lehman giving me one or two tips as a young player and it was to be more positive, to be a bit more expansive and don't be scared to take the opposition on. And from the minute he told me that, I started to play a bit more expansively, started to hit the ball a bit harder, started to challenge more bowlers with a few more questions rather than just defence. And I wasn't a bad bowler. I was a player that liked to get in, but once I was in, okay, I can now start the work how I'm going to score a bit quicker. And that was down to just talking to Darren Lehman. So then to go to Australia in 2002 and three, I just gave myself a thought process as that I wasn't going to allow them just to bowl. I wanted to challenge them and someone like Glenn McGrath and, you know, Jason Gillespie, Brett Lee, obviously the King, Shane Warne. I kind of realized that if I just sat in, I wasn't going to get many. And I also realised that if I just sat in, I'd probably not send a message back to the dress. Remember, I'm opening the bat at this time, which was gothic, and Trez was naturally an aggressive player. And I always thought if we could just get off to a decent start, it would send a bit of confidence back to the dressing room and just send the message that there's runs out there and if you can get in and you can do the right things, you've got a chance, I mean, ultimately to beat that Australian side. In Australia, let's be brutally honest, you ain't going to do it. That's the honest tube. We didn't think like that at the start, but we knew it's a fight, we knew it was a battle and everything would have to have gone our way for us to have competed. But I always look back at that series and what I learned in that series and I studied Steve Waugh throughout that series and I didn't realize I was actually doing it.

He was Australia captain at the time.

He was a skipper and I didn't realise I was doing it until I got the England captaincy. And once I got the England captain, I thought, all right, what do I do? And I thought, right, I've got to look back on the people that I've been captained by and I have to look at the captains that I've seen when I've been playing against them. And Steve Orr was a standout and it was just his manner, his mechanism is, you know, I always look back at counter cricket in the 90s where you play 11 o' clock till 11:50, 11 o' clock till 1:15 and there was 104 overs or 110 overs in the day and you get to 1 o' clock and you bowled your part timers to get a few more overs in before lunch. So you'd have like 37 to 38 overs in the tank, so you wouldn't have a long afternoon. So I'd bowl a few overs, get through them, like really kind of timid stuff just before lunch. And every time I watched Steve walk the over before lunch, he'd turn to someone like Brett Lee and go, right, ball bouncers around the wicket. And I used to go, oh, the last thing that batter needed at that time, you know, particularly playing in Adelaide, you just want to get some chicken, plum chicken. You don't want to be facing bounces just before you go and have some chicken. But he would make those periods that I mentioned that I was brought up in the 15 minutes where, let's be honest, manager just wanted to get off the field. He'd make that period the hardest period. And there was things like that that I stood and I thought just little things like walking on the field, you know, I'd walk on the field and say hello to everyone, you know, the opportunity. Morning, morning. You'd say hello to Steve Woy. Just look at you. Make you feel about three foot tall. You go, oh, he's not even said hello. And then you go out to bat and you're taking your guard and you come in at extra cover. And he didn't have to say a lot, but he intimidated you with field setting. Just small words, not abuse, mental disintegration. That's exactly what he delivered. Alright, it helps when you've got Warren McGrath, Gillespie and Brett Lee, but he's tactical now, so I don't think has ever been given enough credit for. I thought he operated that group and made it very, very difficult. And obviously the way that he batted was just tough. Brilliant batter. But I look back at that five test match series and yes, I scored runs, so I got belief in myself that yes, this Australian side are great, but you can get them, you can get at them. And actually the win in Sydney, we were 4 nil down, it was going to be a whitewash. And the performance that we gave in Sydney was tremendous. We won the toss, we batted and the pitch did a bit and Mark Butcher got a tremendous hundred and we got a number on the board. It wasn't a massive number, I think it was 360. And I kind of looked back at that game and thought, well, we got 360, they got pretty much parity. And the second is we went at the. Because we didn't have anything to lose. So we went at them and the pitch deteriorated and Caddick got seventh and we balled them out. We won the game easy. And I remember sitting in the dressroom afterwards going, you know what, you've just got to do that three times. You've got to produce that performance three times in a five match series and you win the Ashes. And kind of looked around, no one spoke in the dressroom. But I thought in the back of my mind, any team can be got if you play good cricket and you've got to be brave back first against that Aussie said, because they got warning, you're not going to win many games by bowling first against warning. So we're going to have to be brave if we get to 05. And again, I wasn't thinking as a leader at that time in Sydney, to be honest. We were getting in the dressroom and we're driving golf carts down the road back into Sydney and got caught by the police, John Crawley and co. But going down to get the captaincy a year later, I just know that that was the kind of series that I kind of learned so much from me, from the team, from the ability that if you play well, you can beat anyone. And more so looking at someone like Steve Warren going, yeah, that's the way the captain.

Before you were the captain, you were the batter. One of the main reasons you got the captain was because of the runs you scored. Before that summer of 2002, you played 16 tests with 100 of an average of 31. The next 12 test matches against Sri Lanka, India and in Australia. 0203, 12 test matches, 7 hundreds at nearly 77. Why?

No idea.

But was it something you'd done with Duncan Fletcher? Was it the forward press? At that time, you just said you changed your attitude and trying to be more aggressive and put bowlers under pressure. That's a big difference. To go from 16 tests at 31 to 12 tests at 70.

Technical changes. Forward press. Kind of get myself in a ready position earlier, you know, just before the release of the ball, making sure that I was aligned in a ready position rather than. Sometimes I'd leave it late and my front foot would kind of just step across, just to. On and around off stunt, which made me really vulnerable to that ball that nipped back. I think the ultimate kind of change was mindset and just belief and just accepting what would have been 20, 29, 28, 29. You know, just ultimately saying to myself, one day, I've got to be better, you know, I've got it back for longer and I've got to get bigger runs.

Did you feel like your career was on?

I was just. I was always going to be playing. But, you know, you. I think you define and, you know, Neil Fairbrother, who's. Who's managed me for many years, his great line is, you know, your currency is runs, you know, and that's the best line of any player. You know, you have to remember in cricket, you're an individual surrounded by a team ethos, you know, but only you can score the runs. No one else can score the runs for you. No one else can bowl for you or catch for you. You've just got to do it. And eventually, you know, when I realized I was decent, I could play a bit, you know, but to get to that next stage, I genuinely just think it's just a mentality of right, concentrate. People always say to me, what's mental toughness? I think the art of concentration, you know, to concentrate for long periods of time is mental toughness. And can you be. It's not, can you be bothered, but can you challenge yourself to concentrate for longer period of time? I look at Joe Rittman, you look at those numbers. Joe's done it for the last seven or eight years. His powers of concentration are remarkable and his powers of consistent movements are remarkable. And that's why I look at all these players that do it for a period of time. It's just the art of concentration, the want inside to Be out there for long periods of times to help your team. But there was no. There was. I was on a pair at Lords, actually, against India. I think Zaire Khan or Ashish Neera got me out of lbw. And I remember sitting in the dressing room going, I've had enough of this. That ball at Nick's back's doing my nutting. I've got to go and change it. So I went in the indoor school that day for hours and hours with Nigel Stockall, the trainer, physical trainer, and we just settled the bowling machine and I just worked a movement. I just drilled this movement. Trigger, trigger. Do it early. Trigger, trigger.

Was that the forward press?

Yeah. So I went forward and got my back foot aligned just ahead of my front foot. I thought, right, I'm just going to do that, keep my head over that off stump and let's just see where it goes in the second innings. I try. I'm just going to go with it. I'm on a pair. I got quick single. Could have been run out for naught, I think, but I got off the player and all of a sudden I started to flow. I thought, oh, that's quite nice. This has given me so much more time. You know, it's like Duncan Fletcher used to always say, when you trigger, make sure you get there early. You know, it's like going for a bus. If you turn up late, you're going to miss the bus. So make sure if you're going for a bus, just get there early, because the bus will come to you. And it's the same with a batting trigger. If you do it early, the ball's going to come to you. If you do it late, you're knackered. And that's what I did on that occasion. I got a lovely hundred and. And then from there, it just kind of just flew, you know, I felt I had so much time, so much flow on the front foot, the back foot, that kind of wide base that I ended up with. I didn't have to do a great deal more from there. I could just kind of press forward and play that drive. I could press back and play the cut, the pull shot. So that was the kind of technical maneuver, but it was more the. You just get a confidence and a flow. Well, the first 15 runs of any of these are tough. Doesn't matter what your movements are. There's always that vulnerability of the pitch, the ball, the conditions, the situation of the game, and you're always vulnerable early. But I always felt around that time, if I got past 20, 25. I felt I was going to get.

A score during that India series. You got 100 against Sri Lanka at home in 2002 and you got 300 against India. So 400 in the summer. Is it right that you spoke to Sachin Tendulkar during the India series for a bit of advice on how to play in Australia?

I did, yeah, I did. And he was great. I mean, like I would say now, I mean, it's a great place to go and bat. It's just dealing with the noise of this. You gotta remember the Aussie side then, they were powerful and they had probably, you could argue, the strongest body language of any sporting team. They had such a presence. You know, you had Matthew Hayden, you had Justin Langer, Ricky Ponton, these are three players that were just in the ranks. Then you got Steve Warden, you got Shane Warner, you got Glenn McGrath, Jason Gillespie, Adam Gilchrist, Damian Martin, Brett lee, charging involving 95 miles an hour. So they had an incredibly gifted cricket team, skill set wise, but an incredibly gifted cricket team mentality wise presence. They knew and they knew that they could, with their body language and presence and their mindset, they could belittle any opponent and you had to be tough.

Is that why you went to Sachet?

Yeah, I just wanted to know what was it like, you know, what was it like to face this, you know, the skill sets that are going to come. I asked about McGrath, never faced McGrath and he gave me a couple of pointers about McGrath and just, he's actually, I think it was just make sure you let the ball just set a symbol, make sure you let the ball really come to you against McGrath because he'll just bowl that kind of length, but he will give you opportunities if you're willing to just hang in there. And when the ball gets a bit older and it's not nipping, you can actually get on and drive that length. That's such a tricky length with the new ball. You just got to try and survive that and then that length that it bowls again with the older ball, you can actually climb into it and drive on the up. So it's just earning the right. I mean, Sachin got that. I think it was a double century in Sydney where he didn't drive, didn't cover drive, didn't cover drive. And I think the COVID drive in Ostre is the best shot in the book, but also the worst shot in the book at the wrong time. I mean, that sounds completely obvious. And the wrong time can be in the first 20 overs, in the first Innings when there's just a little bit of moisture in the surface, Australia will offer that kind of half volley, you go chasing it. There's always just a little bit of oomph in the pitch. That's when the outside edge comes into play in the second innings, when the ball's a bit. When the pitch is a bit drier, that same delivery that you get in the first innings might be your opportunity to climb into it. So it's assessing what the right shots are for the conditions that you're playing. And that's just experience and that's just again, mental toughness. Mental toughness, really working out what's on, what's not. And when it's on, go for it. And if it's on in the first things, of course, go for it. But it might be that the first innings is the innings where you have to play a little bit of the attritional style for 30 overs and then you can get stuck in. And in the second innings it might be vice versa, actually. It might be the new balls, the time to check, you know, really take on the new ball and be ultra aggressive because there might be a bit of spin, there might be a foot, all or two, and you think, I've got to get after the new ball. So it's just assessing the conditions like most places. But it really is important that, you know, like Sachin did on more than one occasion, he worked out the conditions better than most in Australia. So, yeah, it was always nice to have a conversation with him.

So you go into Australia, you're in the squad, England are getting together. There was a little bit of upheaval in the run out, in the run up. Graham Thorpe was named in the squad. Then he pulled out. I was looking at the tour last night. You were there for ages. First game was on the 22nd of October, the first tour match. The last one There was on the 25th of January. There were four warm ups before the first test. Imagine Ben Stokes, his team doing that. Now, you made 100 in the last warm up against.

I don't think. I think I was injured, I think my knees. I dodged your knees. All my crowd. I don't think I played in Perth.

What, in the very first warm up? Yeah, in the last warm up before the first Test against Alan Borderovo made 100. But you were there for forever.

Yeah, we were there.

I mean, I suppose that was the.

Last played load of golf.

That was the last old school Australian tour, I guess, because I think by 0607 the amount of warm up games had sort of been cut back, the chopping and changing between formats. I mean, after the third test you went off and played some one day as it's just, it just doesn't happen anymore.

I mean, I spoke to Alan Lamb and glaston small about 86, 87. And they, they went through their whole. I think they played seven games before the first Test. Our time's a different time, but I kind of look back at that and, you know, I remember arriving in Perth and I think we did a gentle fielding session on the waca. Honestly, it went great. We did some good run throughs and we did some good catching and we were great. Honestly, we all kind of went, yeah, we're up for this. But they positioned a camera and clearly when you're fielding for an hour and a half and there's 16, 17 in the squad, there's bound to be one or two go down. And they positioned a camera and pretty much took a picture of every single catch that was taken. And then obviously we all drop one catch each. At least I dropped a lot more than that. And next day, on the front page of the Perth paper or whatever that's called, England drop into town and pictures of all dropping a ball. I mean, that is what you have to expect in Australia. Again, you don't get that anywhere else in the world and you don't get the news channels really harassing you like you do in Australia. They will chase the England side and they did back in 2002. Through the airports, through your hotel. Cricket's big news when the Ashes is on in the uk, but in Australia, it's monstrous news. You know, it really is front and center of every single news station. So I guess you've got to deal with that. You've got to deal with the headlines. I mean, I loved it when Broady went to Brisbane. I can't remember what was that?

The Courier Mail.

The Courier Mail, they weren't even mentioning, would they? I mean, that's all part of the drama. That's all part of why the Ashes are so special.

So on the subject of Brisbane 2002, first morning coin goes up, yeah, Lands in England's favor and Nasser Hussein says, we'll have a bowl. What had happened? Did you know that was coming? What was the reaction in the dressing room?

I mean, I. No, we didn't know. I. I was starting to get my pats on, to be honest. But he must have seen something in the pitch. I mean, there was a few clouds around. I mean, two. I Think. But in a funny way, I mean, he's been lambasted for it since, hasn't he? But you can kind of understand it with the team that we had, you know, I guess the conditions always going to be warm and the pitch was going to crack in and they've got Shane Warne. So it was a stupid decision. But in defence of Nasser, if we'd have gone four or five down at lunch because there was a hint of moisture and we managed to bowl them out for 2.50, it was probably the only chance we had of winning the game. You know, that's the truth of the matter. If we'd have batted on that first day against McGrath and Coe would have probably been 200 all that anyway. I mean, they were just so good. So I think when you come up against. Sometimes you. You've got to accept you come up against a team that's just better. You know, whichever way you go about your business, you're probably going to lose. But when we get to Sydney and you do it the way of getting runs on the board and you see the pitch deteriorate, you think, yeah, that's the way to play against a good team.

Well, Simon Jones happened that day.

Happened, yeah, his knee went, didn't it? I dropped an absolute goober at extra cover. I think I let one through my legs at Gully. Justin Langer off the mark. We'd had this talk about, come on, we're as one, so when the Aussies come at us, we all go together. I think Caddick gave Matthew Hayden a few choice words early. Hayden drop kicked him over his head for six and Caddick went again. We were like all looking around, we all going in and no one went with Caddick, so he was left stranded. Yeah, Simon's injury was. That was. That was horrific, you know, because he. He was bowling great. I'm not saying that he'd won us the Ashes series, but would have competed a lot more with the Simon Jones for a few test matches. But I actually look at the way that we fought in that series. You know, we didn't have the skill sets to really beat Aussie side, but I think we fought hard. You know, we had one or two, probably Perth, we kind of slipped away a bit, but the Adelaide Oval Test, we fought hard. Melbourne, we had a bit of a crack. We were following on. We fought hard there and then, obviously we won the last Test, so we avoided the whitewash, which was. I wouldn't say it wasn't one of the special moments in my Career. But, yeah, they were a special team in Brisbane.

You know, NASA's done what it's done. You've been heavily beaten. You've made 33 and naught.

Not out that shocking decision, but not.

A sign of a things to come necessarily in between. You go and play Australia A. England have to follow on against Australia A. So we almost did. We almost lose by an innings to the A side in Hobart. I think it was in Hobart.

Too cold for us.

And then in Adelaide, you said you were injured, you're struggling with your knee. There's a game you nearly, nearly didn't play.

Yeah, I was in the nets.

Yeah. Second Test and maybe even right up to the toss. Not sure if you're going to, actually.

Morning of the match. Yeah. And my knee had just locked. Clearly there was a bit of gristle or floating cartilage and it got like kind of jammed.

Sign of things to come.

Jammed in. Yeah, jammed in my. In my joint. I was like, God, I can't even run. So anyway, Flex would just go in there, hit some balls. And I said, just strap it up and hit some balls. And I just said, oh, can we have an injection? And the fish went, yeah, you could just inject it if you want. And NASA had not even been given the green light from the nets that I was playing. I was playing and. Which I was delighted with. I wanted to play. I just like.

So when he went out to toss up, was it 100% sure if you were?

Yeah. And then we win the toss. It was boiling. Batted first, which was great. And I hobbled out with Trez. Not to be fair, with Trez, you didn't have too many quick singles, so that was quite handy. Yeah. And the adrenaline had been out there and the injection and more and more tablets throughout the day, that. That soon nullified the problem.

37 without loss. You're on 19. Andy Bickle's bowling whitish one that you drive loops towards Justin Langer at points. He dives forward and he says he's caught it.

He did.

And you stand.

Yeah, he caught it.

And Steve Buckner, the umpire, calls for tv. Steve Davis is the TV umpire. Mark Taylor on TV is losing it over. That's definitely out. It's commentary. And you stand.

Yeah.

And it gets given. Not out.

Yeah. It was in that era that you just knew you had a chance and they were always going to take it upstairs. He died forward. It kind of bounced around here. It wasn't at the end of his finger, so, yeah, probably in the middle of his hand. But it was close to the ground and, you know, with the. The cameras and, you know, the way that the kind of cameras operate, it was always going to look like that ball would have touched at least one blade of grass. Yeah, I reckon it might have just brushed one blade. And that's enough it takes to hit the ground. But when you're in the middle and it's happening, the longer it went. I know I'm getting away with this. And I was laughing to myself because I. I knew what was coming. I knew I would get away with it and I knew I'd be absolutely lambasted.

And were you?

Oh, God. They completely went in the middle. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And who was that?

All of them? Yeah, the whole group. But Langer took it all day. He took it all day, which I. I can completely understand.

Goes McGrath and Bowles and Vaughan drives another scything stroke, but along the ground this time. The Skull Seagulls are scatter there at deep backward point as another boundary is recorded. And Michael Vaughan goes to 50. It'll be a controversial innings, no doubt about that, but his reach is 50 from 72 balls. Is it? Four fours and two sixes and that's out of England's 81 for no wicket.

You know, I really should have been out. But you get away with it. And it was a typical Adelaide Oville pitch, the old kind of pitches, where it did a bit for an hour or so and then it just. It was a belter.

Well, you made 177.

Yeah, it was flat.

So you said you copped it all day from them while you're making this 177, when you've made that score and what's happened? What does it do to you, knowing you've not just scored the runs, but you've also come through that from the Aussies taking that all day. Which is harder, the batting or the getting that in your ear?

No, I actually quite enjoyed that kind of element of being abused. It was making me chuckle inside. But you've still got to have that focus and that concentration. I'll keep going back to that. Art of concentration is the key. And, you know, they had Andy Bickle in the team. Jason Gillespie bowled a quick spell. He actually chipped my shoulder, hit my shoulder. I don't know, just after 100, I think. Didn't realise it was chipped. Morny was just being Warny. He was chipping away. But Warny was always great because if he did well, he was the first to shake my hand when I got 100, you know all the players. When I went in the dressroom, it's funny because I went into the dress room and all had to put the. Obviously the hundred on the board with the gaffer tape. And then it was five or ten minutes after go and do a bit of press. And we had to delay the press because I had to have all this ice on my right knee. And then I had all this ice on my right shoulder. I'd be like Dad's army. And then suddenly the Aussies actually had to come in and shake my hand in the dressroom. They all did, apart from Justin. Justin. Took a couple of years for Justin really to speak to me. But that's what makes kind of the Ashes. There's always moments in the Ashes that every individual player that's played a few Ashes Test matches, there'll always be something. And the confidence that I felt from, you know, to score 100 against Australia and Australia as a player, that doesn't get much better. You know, that feeling of, you know, celebrating 100 is always great, but to celebrate with, you know, the barmy army on the bank and in front of the old scoreboard, it's. Yeah. Of all the hundreds that I've got in my career, I always say that first one in Adelaide's the most special.

Bali Devaughan, who edges and he's caught at slipped by Warne. Vaughan's innings comes to a sad end right at the end of the opening day. And Australia so characteristically striking back when it really looked as though England would finish the day in a dominant position. Vor's out Court warn Bold Bickle. 177. You lose a Test and you lose in Perth. And the Ashes are gone as we've touched on the series. Then pauses. You go off to play one day as for a month. At which point Shane War dislocates his shoulder. He's out of the last two Test matches. So you're pitching up at the MCG for the Boxing Day Test. Ashes are gone, but there's still two Test matches to play. I guess from your point of view that, you know, you said that's one of the best hundreds that you made, or you look at that one, but you're still in a team that has lost three test matches. And in three test matches, you've made 100. Okay, that's okay. But in the Boxing Day Test, you make 145 in the second innings. So all of a sudden you're going from having an okay series to now standing out. What's that doing for you as a. As a cricketer and as your mindset.

I just remember that game. They made us follow on. You know, Steve Orr generally didn't used to do that, and he made us fall on. And we could have won that game. Just needed another 60 or 70 runs, I think would have won the game.

Because they only ended up chasing about, what, 100 in the second half.

Yeah, we had them jittery. I think Steve Waugh might have been caught behind. We didn't appeal. It was a massive nick. We were starting to play better cricket. I think sometimes in Australia, and particularly against that tide, it takes probably two or three games to realise you are up against human beings. I think at the start of that series, you look at them like they are robots, like aliens, like they're just too good. And the more you play against them, the more you realise if you bowl your best balls, you've got a chance. But their ability was to make you not bowl your best balls because they used to hit you off your length and they used to intimidate. So you'd panic and you chase and you start doing a few things that necessarily would allow them to score a bit quicker. But the more that you play against that side and the more that I played against them, I completely understood that they were quality. But if you did your basics really, really well, you had a chance. And that's what happened in the second innings in Melbourne. The pitch was pretty good and Stuart McGill was playing. We managed to score a few, managed to hit them around a bit. It was. I think it was around the time the MCG was only. I think there was one massive stand that was being renovated. So there's a massive void, like a load of builders. So I remember scoring 100 there and, like, looking around to see where I was celebrating and waving my bat, I kind of lost my. And I just saw a load of builders. So I waved my back to these builders. They got a bit of a nod. But, you know, I think I always remember that, that tour for our fans, actually, you know, there was this group, the Barmy army, were always very prominent, but it was around that. That time that they. They traveled in numbers. And the MCG that. And I don't think it was Bay 13, because I think it was Bay 13 that I'd been knocked down. But we just had this massive section for the whole, whole, whole week in Melbourne and there must have been. Must have been 3 or 4,000. And they just were so vocal, so noisy. And you thought if you could just give them something And I guess that something came with a little bit of hope in Melbourne and then a fantastic performance in Sydney, which leads then to everything that we achieved in 2005. But it was more the fact that I kept on looking at this England group of supporting cracking. If we could do something with this team that we had and the younger players that were coming through, there's something special that could be around the corner.

Just before you talk about that Sydney game, what about the way that you batted? Because often you were pulling balls off lengths that weren't necessarily that short, particularly off McGrath, who was so metronomic in his length. Then what that does is gets the bowler to correct that length and the ball too full and you can drive. Was that.

Yeah, yeah, but conscious. Yeah, but the bounce is so true in Australia.

But one of the things I remember of you playing in that series or when you're batting at your best is that one, one legged pull shot. The swivel pull.

Yeah, yeah. Again, it's the trust in the bounce, you know. You know, if you, if you can, you know, you look at a spot on the wicket and I used to always look at the spots and think, right, if it's around there, there's a chance I can, I can take that on. You know, anything shorter than that, it's going to get too high and it could be dangerous, you know, but it's just that, and the pitches are, they're not as quick as people think. Even the wacker, when they say, oh, you know, it's rapid, it's not that quick, it's just the aura. And it's the doctor, the Fremantle doctor that comes in at the wacker that used to put players off. And I completely understood that. But if you can trust the bounce, you can take it on. I actually didn't. I mean, the first test in Brisbane, I played a couple of pull shots against McGrath. After that, I didn't do many, you know, because I think he started to pitch up a little bit more, which I found it a lot harder. The actual full length delivery was my danger ball. That in between length, I felt I could pretty much score on both sides of the wicket. But it wasn't anything that I planned for. You know, I think people thought, oh, I went to Australia, I was going to play the Porsche, I was going to play the driver. It just happened naturally. And that's why I always say, you know, anyone that says, oh, you know, how'd you bat in Australia? I said, just bat and just instinctively react. And if you instinctively react and You've got a few options up your sleeve. I think you'll be very, very successful because, as I keep saying, the pitchers generally are the purest. Ball gets softer, probably quicker than most countries. And you've just got to trust your mentality. That's all it is. It's the fight of mentality and the. It's the fight of how big an Ashley series is that sometimes lets people down.

England are improving as the series goes on.

Probably.

Certainly scoreline doesn't reflect it. You're 40 down, but you're not playing horrific cricket. There's an argument to say this team is improving as the tour goes on, but you could have lost five nil. You could have lost five nils. But second innings at Sydney, we touched on it before, sort of parity after first innings. You make 183 in the second innings. Andy Caddick 7 in the second innings on a pitch that started to go up and down, sort of the sort of pitch that suits him as a seam bowler. He takes 10 in the match. And there's the celebrations after that. The famous picture of you all with.

The flag played again.

He didn't. That was his last testament tenfer and gone. Yeah.

Crikey. It's a bit harsh, isn't it?

But, I mean, what about that as a celebration to have won a one Test match?

I reckon if. I mean, if you kind of just pop down, you'd not seen the whole series. And then you saw our celebrations in front of the fans in Sydney.

You thought you won the Ashes, you'd.

Have thought we'd have won five nil. Oh, we give it big licks.

And what was the night like?

Great. Yeah. I think the Prime Minister, John Howard came in. I think it was John Howard around the time he came in the dressing rooms. And we were in our dressing rooms. The dress room attendant, Rocky, the old Rocky guy, he's amazing guy. He used to write motivational messages on the dress room every morning. The guy that drove the Gatorade boogie out. And it was the Gatorade boogie that we took out, the SCG that had to try and get back. Me, John Crawley, Mark Butcher. I think Keezy was on that. Well, we needed to get home. There's no taxi, no Uber back in those days. So we decided that Phil Neal, the manager of the team, busted that gun.

It's a decent journey from the scd.

Yeah, we didn't realise that. We only managed to get to the traffic lights just down the road, and then the police pulled us in and Said, lads, just take it back. So we took it back. But sitting in the dressroom with the Aussies was great, you know, because it.

Was that the first time that you'd have.

We weren't allowed, you know, NASA made it very clear that he didn't want us to socialize with Australia. But at the end of the series, you're always going to do that. And it was just nice to sit around with the likes of Hayden Langer. Actually started to speak to Justin, which was great. Ricky Ponting.

And is that Legends, where you talk about them being human? Is that where you break that down?

Yeah, I like, look, people do things differently. My belief is when you're up against a human being that you don't know, particularly when that human being's exceptional, the best way to find out about them is to get to know them. And you generally always find out that they're just normal people that just play cricket very well and they're. They're very tough in terms of what they deliver. But we had a great crack, great fun in the dressing room. And that's, for me, what playing an Ashes series is all about. You have to have those moments. You have to have those times where you play, you lose, you win, you draw, whatever it may be. But most England sides and most friendships that move on from when you finish. If you look at, like, look at Ian Botham, Ian Botham's mates are all Australians. Most of my mates in cricket, as much as the ringers, are Australian. And I think, and I hope that's still the case, I guess it's probably different now with the franchise world and they all get friendships with many of the players around the world, but I think there's an ultimate respect in an Ashes. I think both sides, I mean, I don't think either side ever admit it, but the pressure that you're under, I mean, the Aussies have never really admitted.

Well, but only you two know what each other's going through. There's very few people who know what's.

But I think the Aussies generally hide that. They never say, oh, you know, the Ashes are tough. They just say, ah, no, it's just another game of cricket. Well, it's not. It's not. And I've seen that since then, you know, in 05, in 2009, just watching 10 and 11, when obviously Andrew Strauss's side did the damage down there. You can see now, and I think in more recent times, Australia have realised that, you know, it's tough, it's not as Easy as potentially that 90s side.

Made it look after Sydney. Within a few months, your captain, you were man of the Series in that series in Australia, you were number one batter in the world for a period, then you became captain straight away. Are you thinking 2005 and in that period between 2003, taking over from NASA and either the first Test match in 2005 or getting your hands on the urn, how much does that dominate your life? Is it almost every waking moment thinking, no, it didn't.

No, it wasn't. Two years of waking up every morning going, oh, I've got to beat Australia. Because the only way you beat Australia, if you win games before, you can't suddenly arrive in the Nashes series to play against that side and, you know, not beat South Africa, not beat the West Indies at home, don't beat New Zealand, don't beat the West Indies away. You've got to win. So you have to find a formula and a mechanism of how to win. But over the two years, it became very obvious that we were going to have a fresher team, a younger team, more. Not a more dynamic team, that's the wrong word, but a team that had no baggage or very little baggage. I think what was very clear to me in 2002, 03, and understandably, is that once we'd lost the first test and then you lose the second test, it's like, here we go again. Because a lot of those players had been around the England side in the 90s as great a group of humans that we could ever have wished to have playing for England, they were great people. They'd had so much bad experience of playing Australia that that's natural to think negatively when you get into that kind of negative zone once again. So we just needed a fresh set of minds and, you know, you needed bowlers to get 20 wickets. That was the key.

When you got your hands on the urn at the oval or, I don't know, in the days afterwards. And there's probably not a lot of thinking that had gone on in the days afterwards, given what you got up to after that. At what point around about that time did you know, I'm not sure life's going to be the same again.

You never know to what extent. Yeah, I think the majority of us have been able to, you know, we have normal lives. I mean, we don't have extravagant lives, I guess. Freddie's become household name for, obviously, O5, but for what he's achieved on television after. Kevin Peterson is, you know, globally a superstar. And you know, there's many others that have done really well in the game, but it's. I don't know, it's always funny that that moment when you win is the best moment, but also quite deflating because you're like, oh, it's over now.

Yeah.

All the stress and the pressure was hard to deal with, but, you know, the, the kind of adrenaline that you get from being in a series like that and then suddenly it's done, it's over. You're like, oh, gosh, what's next? And I always say this, you know, 05 was. Was. They always talk about climbing the mountain, don't they? Getting to the top of Everest. And for that team, I think that was our. That was our pinning point.

We didn't even. That 11 didn't even finish the series, really.

No, it just fell. Even though it was a short. It was a short journey, but there was a lot of people's bodies that weren't right. And I never felt with that group that we were going to have like a seven to eight year period together. It always felt like a bit of a. Even though we're quite young, it felt like a little bit of a stopgap that we were just around for that period and we had to try and maximize it.

Well, even for you, you only played two more test matches in the next two years. Yeah, 2005.

Yeah.

And you didn't get the opportunity to defend the earnest captain in 06 07? I mean, when did you know 0607 wouldn't happen for you?

My knees were knackered. I had this micro fracture surgery which is where they drill into the bone, create bleeding, which creates a scab. So I knew pretty much, I actually knew in 05 I was knackered. I was having injections pretty much every other week in 05.

But how did it feel not to be able to go and try and defend the urn in 06? Because you were there, weren't you?

It was quite nice, actually. Got absolutely hammered.

You were ammo.

I would have been hammered. With me, by the way, it's not that Australian side. I mean, it's almost like we poked the bear.

Was it tough to watch?

Yeah, yeah. Because a lot of my mates were playing and it wasn't easy and I think there was a lot of things that went on and the Australians, they wanted revenge. You know, they had legends that were going to say farewell and, you know, once you've beaten them once, they're not going to allow you to beat them twice. Particularly in Their own backyard. And that's why I always felt that that side that we delivered from 23 to 2 5, we were very much geared towards English conditions. The way that we played, you know, the juke ball, getting it swinging around, using a holding spinner, having players that could take on the kind of aggressive option at the right time. We try to score quickly. That was our game away from home where you had to be a bit more attritional and you know, spin came into the equation and you know, you quick bowlers over a five match series overseas or we didn't have enough in the tank to rotate, there wasn't many weight in the wings. So I did feel that that side that we had was very, very much a kind of English conditions. Even though we had pace, we had bounce. I did feel that it was more of an English style kind of scene that we'd put together.

You tried to get another go at them in 09 you were, you resigned as captain in 08 you'd come back, got Graham Smithed as a lot of England captains do.

Yeah.

And you tried to get back for 09. You tried. Did you, did you know as well that that was such a long shot because you were retired before the series? No.

Strassie ran me actually at the start of. I said I want you to get some runs in county cricket and then we'll well have a look. But my body was just knackered, you know, I couldn't do the training, I couldn't do the, the kind of work.

Did you think you had a shot or do you think this is such, such a long shot?

No, there was a, there was a, there was the odd morning that I woke up and thought, yeah, come on, let's have a go, try and try and get that bat in slot because Jonathan Trott ended up playing in that series.

Ravi Bapar at number three. Well, in the West Indies.

Yeah. Good lucky guy. And there's a chance and there's, there's an opportunity if I'm playing as well as I could. But you know, when you, when you're fighting knee problems all the time, you know, I just felt, and I've always, I mean I probably retired a little bit too young, you know, because you know that I had a phone call on the physios bed when I was playing at Worcester and the second team had scored, I don't know, 550 and Joe Root and Johnny Bestow got another 100 each and I went, time to move on. You know, I've always been one of those kind of people that as soon as I realized I've had a good time of it, I believe that young people need an opportunity as well. So my game, my mind was never, ever. I would have royally embarrassed myself in 2009.

But you lifted the urn in 2005. By the time the next home Ashes series came around, you were a former cricketer. You retired before that series started. I mean, you're only 34. You were younger than what, or the same age as what Joe Root is now. I don't think many people would have thought that, you know, when you were lifting the urn at the oval.

There's different times like now. Now they, you know, they will play till the 38, 39. I mean, 34, 35 was the norm, you know, back in those days. And it's just. I'd never change anything. As I said, if I'd have played in 09, I'd have really embarrassed myself. You wouldn't be sat here now if you'd be saying, God, that idiot that played in 09, what was he doing?

So it wasn't hard to. That you didn't get another.

I actually enjoyed. I went to. I went to Cardiff before. I went to a couple of the games. Can't remember where they play, but I just went and I actually enjoyed. It's the only summer I've had, really, where I've had the chance just to go and watch, you know, from 2010, I've started to work and obviously every single summer since then, I've been broadcasting. So there was one time this summer I went to the World Test Championship final this summer just as a fan and I absolutely adored it. Just being at Lords, watching cricket and being in the Harris Garden in amongst. I've never been in the Harris Garden. My mates were so much great in the Harris Garden. And it's these kind of things that you kind of. I look back now at 16 years since I stopped playing cricket and said as much as I've done a lot, I think I've missed a lot as well, you know, in cricket. Just being a normal fan.

We just whistled through your Ashes career and it was 10 Test matches, maximum of 50 days. Not all of them went five days.

It went 50 days. We got Ahmed in Perth in three. So.

But, you know, as a. As a. As a portion of. As a portion of time in your life, quite small, but as an influence.

On your life, well, that's the opportunity for, you know, I look at this, I'll keep saying about the single side They've got a huge opportunity of getting people talking about this team, this group, forever. And I guess that's what happened in 2005. You can pretty much just run the 05 team off your tongue because only 12 players played Paul Collingwood, obviously replacing Simon Jones for that last game. And there'll be more rotation this time. But if this England side can do something really special, the. The side will just roll off everyone's tongues for. It won't be 20 years, it'll be a lot longer than that. So I guess that's what Ashes cricket. I mean, the World Cups are always great, always special, but in the uk, it's the Ashes that count more than anything. It's the Ashes that get you that kind of. I don't think it's respect, it's just that love. You get a huge amount of love from the British supporters if you do something in Ashes series.

We started off by talking about how you felt about Ashes cricket when you were a boy playing games, the players that you looked up to, trying to find out the score when you were going to school. Then you went through that as a cricketer, having success in Australia, getting your hands on the urn. Did it turn out to be the way you thought it would be? Was it everything you wanted it to.

Be at the end? It was. Honestly, at the start, I hated it. Brisbane 202. God, if this is Ashes cricket, I just don't want to be involved in this. I found it was so stressful, pressurised. Don't think I slept that first week in Brisbane. And then the more I played, the more I realized, right, this is pretty cool. This is all right. Got used to it. Got a little bit more emotionally detached. I think at the start, you're a bit too emotionally detached, kind of engaged with the Ashes, what it means, all the history, and you want to be a part of it. Probably tried too much, try too hard, eventually you realise it is a game of cricket. But try and get to that kind of notion early is very, very difficult. Probably takes two or three games to realise it's just a game of cricket. But it's, as we all know, it's not. It's more than a game of cricket.

That's how you feel about it now?

Yeah, yeah. And again, you've got to think 20 years, you know, T20 crickets arrive, IPLs, 100 ball competitions, T10s white ball. Cricket's become, you know, the kind of main part of a player's living. You know, if you want to earn a crush, you you play white ball cricket, but you can't beat the red ball, you can't beat Test cricket and you can't beat the Ashes. It's nothing quite like turning up in Australia or in the UK playing the Ashes game. Long may that continue.

And Michael Vaughan scored his first century against Australia. The whole of the Adelaide Oval rises to him. It's his sixth Test century, his fifth this year, his fifth in nine tests. That was from the Ashes. You can read more about Michael Vaughan's 20022003 series on the BBC Sport website and app. The first episode in this series of from the Ashes was with Stuart Broad, which you can find now on BBC Sounds. Make sure you're subscribed to the Test Match Special podcast so you get a notification notification every time we upload during this winter's Ashes when we'll be bringing you daily podcasts from Australia. That's it for now. We'll speak to you next time. The ICC Women's Cricket World cup, featuring.

The stars of women's cricket smash straight.

Back down the ground. This girl, eight teams, takes the cap.

One winner, Australia, to lift the World cup trophy.

The ICC Women's Cricket World Cup. She does not fear a thing.

Hear the action with Radio 5 Sports.

Extra and keep up to date with the TMS podcast on BBC Sounds. Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my.

Podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the.

Rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are gonna come outta your head. Tough enough for you?

Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes Wherever you get your podcast.