From The Ashes: Stuart Broad

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Hello.

I'm Stefan Shemelt and welcome to from the Ashes, a series of test match special podcasts about those who've seen, played and lived some incredible Ashes moments.

His Broad comes in, bowls carries edge. It is out and Stuart Broad takes the final wicket in a dream finale.

Broad comes in and bowls to Agar.

Agar swings the short ball away. He could be caught. He's out.

He's caught in the deep. He's out for 98.

A wonderful debut comes to an end. He goes bigot, dashing up and bowls outside the off stump. He laces it through the offside. He won't go for four, it'll certainly go for one. That's all that Michael Vaughan wants. He goes back for the second. He's got his helmet off, his bat is raised and Michael Vaughan scores his first century against Australia.

Today I'm speaking to a man whose entire life has been entwined with Ashes cricket. Stuart broad was only six months old when his father, Chris, was making three hundreds in England's 198687 triumph in Australia. Stewart grew up to become an Ashes legend, taking more wickets against Australia than any other England bowler. Not walking 8 for 15 at Trent Bridge, having the wood over David Warner and his fairy tale finale at the Oval two years ago. This is from the Ashes, Stuart Broad. Stuart, I guess the place to start is for you more than anyone else. The Ashes must have just been your life before you even knew about it. The Ashes was a factor in your very being.

Absolutely, yeah. I was born June 24, 1986 and it was that winter 86, 87 that my dad went on the sort of famous Ashes tour of Mike Gatting, both them and he won player of the series. Scored three centuries in Australia. So I've been six, seven months old, but already sort of engaged in. In what, in what the Ashes will. Will grow to be. And I think what led to me really understanding the history and what Ashes cricket meant to my family was Most kids at 3, 4, 5 are probably watching postman patterns. So if I had on Top, Down Under 8, 6, 8, 7, Ashes videos to watch, you know, so I knew, used to watch that video all the time. So I knew what my dad achieved and grew a lot of enthusiasm and love. Saw that, you know, remember the Duncan Fernie Magnum he used? My first ever bat was a Duncan Fernie Magnum, little, little size. And you know, I, I suppose it just at a young age instilled in me the, the love of Ash's cricket and from then on the pain of Ash's cricket, if I'm honest, you know, from that. So all my living childhood, we didn't win the Ashes. It was just McGrath, Steve Orr, Blanger, Hayden, Ponting, Warne, just, just nailing us until 2005 when I was playing professional cricket and involved in watching that amazing series. And so, yeah, my influential years of probably 10 to 16 of really watching cricket, we're. We went through quite a lot of hurt, didn't we, as England fans? And that instilled in me I didn't just want to play Ashes cricket, I wanted to win it.

What about the competitiveness and the way that you would go on to play the game and want to get in the battle and knowing that particular moments brought out the best in you, was that probably instilled into you right then, even without you knowing it?

I think watching England lose was definitely instilling a real drive in me to see England win and play a part in England winning. I think naturally I got my dad's competitive spirit. Famously, he didn't walk in Pakistan when given out off the thigh pad and kicked his stumps over on 100 whatever at Sydney. So he had a standard that he set for himself and, and was quite passionate in the way he played the game. He was someone that instilled in me part of my goal as a player. I never wanted someone to look at me and go, I could give more for that shirt or I could play with more enthusiasm or more drive or more or energy. And that definitely came from my dad because every time he pulled an England shirt, he wore it with such pride and passion and arguably I think probably if he'd have played in a more stable area, would have played more. Actually, it's a very successful Nottinghamshire team and did well in an England shirt. So, yeah, there was definitely a competitiveness instilled in me from a young age. But actually backguarding cricket for me was quite honest. When I say I was McGrath running into bowl, I was Pollock, I was Hayden batting, Lara batting and I just played with mates in the village with a taped up tennis ball, swinging it around but competitive, you know, we'd be it every, every time we played and we loved it. So that I think I did the majority of my learning in, in the back garden, actually. I know they talk about academies and, and going through the age groups, but you're your best coach and you, you learn the most from just trial and error. And I would just try everything in the back garden. Leg spin in, swing out, swing, pounce. There's different types of balls and, and you know, I'd watch a bit of cricket on the telly, strength of back garden and play.

We could talk about so many different parts of your ash's career and drill down and talk about loads of different moments in depth. We're going to talk more about the end of it, but the context of the end of your career comes through everything that you went through beforehand, the layers of that story. And you know, you've just said that there was something instilled in you that you wanted to play Ashes cricket and you wanted to do well in it. And you did relatively. A relatively young age. And you did well at a relatively young age. Your first taste of an Ashes series, you won and you were instrumental in, in winning a decider back as body. He's bold.

Broads had him playing into his stumps. A good delivery hit the pitch cut back.

He's chopped it into his stumps. And Broad is embraced by his teammates. A huge wicket for England. Punting, playing on for eight. But until that point, did you feel at home in Test cricket until you took that 5 for 37 in the Ashes decider at the oval. Was that the first time you felt really at home in an England shirt or had that come before?

100% the first time I felt at home. Yeah. I don't know how many tests I played, maybe 14, 15. But because we had the talent of Flintoff who could bat six and he was your best bowler really as well. So I was almost the fourth seamer. Young lads sort of chucked the ball when nothing was happening or I remember at Edgbaston in the second Test, third Test. I didn't bowl to the 68 though. Or something from memory came on and thought, right, this is my chance. So I played sort of a bit part roll. I fell. I actually scored some handy runs in that series, but I didn't feel like I had a huge influence the ball. Then headingly the fourth Test I picked up a six for in a losing cause which never means anything. It never really meant anything to me, but it still made me think, okay, Well, I can get good players out. Got to the oval, didn't really know if I was going to play or not because Freddie was coming back fitness wise and Strauss and Flower ended up going with me over Graham Onions, who bowled brilliant in the series and just had that spell that I didn't necessarily know I could do, to be honest, it sort of, We've got Pfeiffer in the spell. Blew open the Australia's first innings and definitely at the end of that test match, thought, if I could do that against Ponting, Hussey, Clark, Haddon, Watson, I could do that against anyone. And that definitely made me feel a bit more at home. But I still wouldn't think I. I knew what type of bowler exactly I wanted to be and started to grow in 1315. I was about there. But, yeah, 2009 was the. Was the first spell I walked off the field and went, yeah, maybe I do belong in this England shirt.

What about that as a taste of Ash's success as well. That first taste of winning, of winning an Ashes series.

I'll never forget. I'll never forget the feeling. There's a couple of moments that really stick out to me after that FIFA. Remember walking down the stairs at the oval on the Saturday and someone asked my autograph and it was the front page of the paper and I thought, ooh. I remember looking at it going, wow, that's different. Never seen myself on the front page of the paper before. And that moment of waiting for Andrew Strauss, the captain, to finish his interview with the urn on a platform with all the team waiting, looking at the most beautiful pavilion full of people, full of cameras, that moment of waiting for the champagne to go and lift the urn. I just remember that feeling of great satisfaction, actually, because Ashes cricket is everything you wish it to be. It tests everything about you. It's a complete roller coaster. And if you can finish that roller coaster, lifting the urn, it brings an amazing, amazing satisfaction and feeling that you want to repeat over and over again. So I do remember lifting that in 2009, going, cool, I want to do that again.

The thing with, with 2009 is there'd been a little bit of, I don't know, chaos or people in the England team before that. Andrew Strauss had become captain relatively late, near that series in, in the Caribbean the previous winter. And it was only just sort of the start of that great team and you had time in the build up to 10, 11 and setting out a plan to go and win the Ashes in Australia. And there are players of that team who speak so fondly of that experience as one of the highlights of their career. But you got injured after two tests and had to come home. Did you? Did you come home?

Yeah.

And so how do you reflect on that as you were an Ashes winner in Australia, but you only played two of the matches. Is it bittersweet for you?

Yeah, for sure. I probably look at leading up to it. So we did a trip to Munich. We built to the Ashes series for a long time. So although, yes, that was the tip of the iceberg of the team winning it, I felt like I'd contributed leading up into feeling like the squad was in a great place and played. We had a brilliant time in the war on games that we were like, quite competitive and we were trying to stamp our authority on Australian soil and played at. I played at the Gabba where we did a lot of fielding, actually. We bowled really well. We just couldn't get Australia out. And then Cookie and Cookie got doubled in, he and Trotty, a big hundred. So it was a long draw and physically I was very tiring. I remember sort of getting on the plane from Brisbane out to Adelaide and thinking, gosh, I don't think I've ever been as tired as this. The emotion of everything. And it was second innings at Adelaide. I was running into bowl and I felt like a bit of a pain in my ab. And then I bowled one more ball and honestly, it's the sharpest, sorest pain I've ever had in my ab. And then I tried to bowl one more ball and knew I was in big trouble. And, yeah, sweating, obviously, really hot. Walked down into the change room, sort of underground there. And I'm not an emotional person, particularly, but I remember lifting up my shirt and I could see already bruising. And the doctor at the time was a guy called Nick Pierce, who lived in Nottingham. I knew him well. He'd sort of got me to that point, really, and he just looked at it and just gave me a massive hug because he obviously knew that my tour was over and I just burst out crying. And so I do remember feeling a huge amount of sadness. But I also realized international sport just moves very quickly because I arrived at the ground the next morning, so I knew I'd had my scan. I knew I'm like three months or two months and team manager, oh, you're on a plane home tonight. She's like, you know, I couldn't believe it. I was like, what? And would you have stayed if you could? Of course, yeah. 24 year old in Australia, sort of Ashesira pay to go and watch it, to be honest. So actually I was chatting to Jonathan Agnew after the game or that, that sort of day, and he could see I was visibly quite upset and devastated. And I know Ag as he was president of my career club growing up and family friend, he just said, come to Perth, let's work with us. Come and learn about it. Learn about radio. I said, you sure? He said, yeah, you know, can't promise you any payment, but I could sort your hotel room. I said, I'd love to. And, yeah, sort of. Him boyks and haggers for the week at Perth. Only doing tea time or a bit here and there, but loved it and then flew home after the Perth Test match. So, yeah, I remember watching Boxing Day with my dad, a night of Christmas Day for us at his house. And then the time difference is quite hard to watch from home, isn't it? So then, you know, the guys win in Sydney and you sort of watch the highlights. But, yeah, it taught me a lesson, the fact that as soon as you're not in the team at the top level, the sport moves on. You know, you can't sit there thinking they'll wait for you or anything. You know what I mean? So it was just my job to go back and get myself as fit as possible for the Next challenge in 2013.

So, two years on from England, winning the Ashes in Australia, was that the time when the, I don't know, antagonism, for want of a better word, the relationship between you and Australia, however that developed, that. That began.

Thirteen.

Yeah. With the. With what happened at Trep Bridge. And obviously that's because Brad Haddon can't catch. Right.

There's a few things. There's quite a layered situation and I had no idea it should have been a situation. You know, I got fine edge. Brad Haddon's thumb to first slip, so I knew I'd nicked it.

So. But the game situation at the time, second innings, England lead by 232. You're 37 not out. Ashton Agar's bowling. That's the Test match. When he makes 98, almost becomes the first number 11 to make a Test match. 100.

Like you say, edge.

Haddin's gloves into the hands of Michael Clark at first slip. And you stand there by Agar.

Abroad's out. He's out. He's flicked that away to slip. I think he's been taken by Clark. They're appealing. And Alan D.

Hang on.

Alan Dar's saying Not out. Australia have got no reviews left. Broads coming up, leading on his back. That looked to me as if it edged it straight to slip. And Alan Dar's saying, not out. And the Australians are furious, absolutely furious. You have no reviews left, lads. Broad hasn't walked. He's wandering up and talking to Ian Bell. They're standing there and Alim da is coming down to talk to somebody. He's handing a cat back to the bowler now. Let's have a look at the replay. It looks amazing. If we just run it off the bat, straight to slip. Let's have a look. And he did. Straight off his head, off the bat, straight off to wicketkeepers. Let's have a look. He's edged it from outside the off stump. It's just flicked Haddon on the way through. And his Clark takes a simple catch. He's out. And I don't blame Australia for being really, really knocked about that, for goodness sake. I think it might just afflict Haddin's glove. And Clark takes the catch. That's out in any. Well, anywhere you want. It's disappointing, I must say, to see someone standing for that. But Broad is not walking. He stood there. There are no reviews left.

Was a crucial game. You know. What did we win that test by?

15 runs.

15 runs I got. Ended up getting another 30, 40, maybe. So I didn't think anything of it. Just went down into the overbelly, touched gloves. He said, did you nick that? I was like, yeah, I nicked it, but there are no reviews and I'm not a walker. Didn't think it. So played the rest of that day out and then got to the end of the day and Andy Flower came to me and was like, you're right. I was like, yeah, fine, so can you do press tonight? I was like, yeah, always. If you've been in part of the day, this is going to be quite a tricky one because what happened? I went, what happened? What do you mean? He goes, well, nicking, not walking. I was like, everyone does that. Well, it's become quite a story and as it unfolded, I think it became a story. So it was the last Saturday before the football season.

Yep.

So all the sports writers were in. Martin Samuels, Ollie Holt, instead of the cricket writers, obviously, the sports editors, they know a lot about the sport, but they don't know necessarily the intricacies of how it all works. So when I look at reflect on it, they wanted a big story that was a big moment. You, your Paul Newman's, your Dean Wilsons, who Live and breathe the cricket every day. They didn't write about that being a big story or a cheating scandal or anything. It was the sports writers that really moved it up a level. And then it was Darren Lehman on a morning radio show with the blatant cheat comment that exploded it again. He sort of called all Australians to send me home crying, didn't it? So that then blew it up into a, into a bigger thing. But ultimately I look back at that series, I'll ask you a question. That Trenbridge test that was so tight, 15 to win, how did that end Brad Haddin, what did he do?

He edged behind and didn't walk.

And we had to review it.

Yeah. And you asked him, didn't you?

Did you? He was like, yeah, I smashed it. So we were just hoping it was going to show on Ultra Edge or whatever it was at the time hotspot. So you know, that, that, that. I think I played with one walker in my whole career and that was Graham Swan just because he just hit the ball in the air to cover and got out. You know what I mean? Honestly, I think if you went through that series and looked back at players that waited for the umpire's decision or nick the ball didn't walk or was given not out loads.

I think the Australian impression of you as well probably wasn't helped by the fact that he then went and bowled how you did in, in Durham to win the series.

Yeah.

So not only have, have they had that against you, the, the not walking in inverted commas, but you've just bowled them out to, to win the series. And unusually there is an Ashes tour straight after an Ashes series in the UK and you are going to Brisbane and there's the Brisbane Courier Mail who are refusing to name you. Smug Pommy cheat was their, was their headline. Firstly, how did you deal with all of that? And then secondly, walking into the press conference at the end of the first day, five wickets, is that right? At the Gabba.

That's a bit silly.

With the Brisbane Courier Mail tucked under your arm.

Yeah, so that was a bit silly, but so I prepped for it. To answer the first question in the warm up games, I'd walk around the boundary's edge with the psychologist or on my own. Because if you walk around the Gabba there might be 45,000 but you can't hear exactly what's going on. But you hear noise. If you walk around a warm up game when there might be only 100 people and you can hear every word. And I wanted to Build a shield around me. I wanted to hear the abuse or the swearing just to sort of strengthen me. But I, I, I worked with a psychologist to, because I knew it was coming to strengthen, strengthen my resolve and it, I do think it was successful. So to, you know, per, this isn't me fobbing it off because when my name got announced that I was bowling my first ball, the booze were unbelievable. It was like, I remember stood at the end of my mark, like, wow, that's incredible. But the day before, I'd done my pre match mental routine and I'd stood at the end of my mark where I bowled four overs in my mind and I imagined the booze so I could feel it. So it felt like I'd been there before. But it definitely phased me. I bowled a no ball, short one that got here before. First ball, you know, it was quite overwhelming. But then got into my work, ended up getting five for. And I was just, I didn't mean to pick up the paper. I was actually, I was just walking to the press conference at the end of the day and there was the Courier mayo, like stacked 150 high, so it can't have sold many. And I picked it up, rolled it under my arm and walked in. You know, we'd had a great day and that was the only good day we had of the series.

Why do you say it was silly, though? It was great theatre.

Great theatre. But we ended up losing, didn't we? So we'd won that day, but we ended up then Mitchell Johnson sort of lit a flame and bowled the speed of light from then on in, didn't he? Not saying because of that, but we felt like we were in a good place that day. And then it didn't get any better.

Because of what happened on that tour, because of what Johnson did to you and because of the result of losing 5 nil. And then the way that the team evolved. One team broke up and another team was built under Alistair Cook's captaincy. How did you feel going into 2015 as a sort of, I don't know, a responsibility as a senior player and bit of loyalty to your mate who'd gone through the ringer over the previous couple of years and the opportunity to win the Ashes back.

Yeah, it was a bit disjointed, if I remember rightly, because Peter Mors had been relieved of his duties in Ireland at the start of the summer. Yep. And then Trevor Bayliss got named head coach.

Yeah. Far Brace was in charge at the start.

Firebrace in charge at the start. And first time we met Trev, we flew over to Desert Springs in Spain as a training camp and he was there in a room, introduced himself and this is the pre ash's camp, you know, so we didn't know him at all. But I've been working very hard off the field with Otis Gibson, the bowling coach, mentor of mine. I've been bowling a lot over the wicket against left handers. Not great success, success. I need to change it up because the Aussies were coming with loads of left handers, start working on round the wicket stuff and I implemented it in that 15 Ashes series and that changed my career to be honest. That's when I sort of would say I became more of a complete bowler, knowing exactly what I was doing. I went from averaging 37 to left handers through my career to the next three years averaging like 14. You know, it was that game changing for me. So I felt prepped, I felt ready. I'd targeted three months out. Exactly what I was looking to do. I actually wasn't brave enough to do it in the first innings at Cardiff. And then I went round the wicket, sort of a second spell at Cardiff got Rodgers caught behind or caught in the slips and I was like, okay, this is a bit of me. So I felt prepped and ready to get not. Revenge isn't the right word. But Darren Lehman was still in charge. There was a bit of not wanting to, you know, we're not letting the Australians lift the Ashes in England.

And then Trent Bridge.

Yeah.

And Jamie Anderson was injured and you were, you were leading the attack and you were bowling the first over, first.

Time in a test match doing that.

And did you or did you not tell ice to cook to bat first?

Yeah, I did. 100%, yeah. Home ground, you always as a player, the captain comes to the home players and say like, what do you think? And there's grass on the wicket and it was a little bit damp. I said, at Trenbridge actually the stats do back this up. It's a bat first because it'll be soft and slow, but it will dent. And then day two, it'll quicken up and nip and it'll be more nickable. And then I was marking my run up out and Shane Warne walked up to me and he said, that's a bowl first, isn't it? And I remember thinking, oh, Shane Warne thinks that's a bowl first. He was bat first everywhere might be a bowl first. I went over to Cookie, I was like, chef do you know what could be a bowl first, you know, and you went, don't worry, made that call already. We're going to bowl. And actually, what people don't remember, I do vividly, because I was warming up on the field, there was a bit of a rain shower, about two minutes at 11 o', clock, so not enough time to get the covers on, and it just shined the pitch up beautifully, so it skidded on. So I actually slipped my first couple of balls, put some sawdust down and then got into a rhythm and it just. Just juiced the pitch up beautifully.

Do you remember when that is happening, when that's unfolding? Can you take it in, or is it only afterwards, I don't know, when you maybe watch a replay, that you fully understand what has happened?

Here is Stuart Broad again into Chris Rogers.

He's up to the Wiki now.

He bows. Oh, Roger cut forward and got it. He's caught there in the slips and Rogers is waiting. And that was Bell, I think, wasn't he?

And.

And that is Broad's 300th Test wicket. What an extraordinary start this is the crowd. Listen to them. Here's Broad coming in and bowling to Voges. Oh, he's brilliantly caught. Brilliantly called. That is an outrageous catch by Ben Stokes. That was gone. It was past him and he flung himself backwards and to his right. You won't see a better catch. I'm sorry. 29 for 5 as broads on his way, bowls to Clark, who's on 10. Here he comes. Slashes it is caught. Caught by Cook. Two hands above his head. A horrible shot, I'm afraid. And he walks off, head bowed. He'll know it. That was wide. He's just thrown the bat at that. And that shot might yet come back to haunt Michael Clark. And afraid that's an absolute stinker. Five wickets already for Stuart Broad and we haven't had 40 minutes play.

At the BBC, we go further so you see clearer. Through frontline reporting, global stories and local insights, we bring you closer to the world's news as it happens. And it starts with a subscription to BBC.com giving you unlimited articles and videos, ad free podcasts and the BBC News channel, streaming live 24. 7. Subscribe to trusted independent journalism from the BBC. Find out more@BBC.com join.

No, you can't take it in. Even to the extent when I got the five for five for six or some cookie took a catch above his head and it came from the big screen. I was like, what is that five? I didn't have a clue. I was like, how's that five? Because you're just right, who's in next? Right, this is the plan. Who's in next? This is the plan. So, yeah, I didn't take it in and then it took a bit of time, actually months to see the scorecard and see 8 for 15 written to make it feel real. And I think what was so special was that Ruta got 100 in the same day. If we'd have been bowled out for 100, it's a completely different conversation, isn't it? But we bowl straight out for 60 and then Ruti goes and gets 100. Remember so vividly, about 20 to one or quarter to one. Having made a cup of tea and watching Livey Adam live cover drive so crisply through the offside off Mitchell Stark. And I sat there, sipped my tea and said, we've already bowled, not had lunch yet and we've bowled them out. What's happened there? So, yeah, it didn't particularly for me to do it on a ground that my dad played at. I used to play on the outfield at 4 years old. Means so much to me and my family. Every time I walk through that ground, it gives me the shivers, you know, so to have done it there. But the most special day of that whole Test match was the last day, day three. Remember we were on the bus to the ground and Mark woods said to me, do you think anyone will turn up because we needed three wickets or something. I was like, yeah, Nottingham people love the sport. And we got there, it was packed, just for 40 minutes play and we were on the outfield for hours after and the crowd just stayed and it felt like a festival in a sense. And that was one of the favourite moments of my career.

Can't talk to you about your ash's career without mentioning David Warner. Why did you get him out so often?

Played against him a lot, if I'm honest. And I technically worked him out at the back end due to him being so dominant. He was really difficult to bowl at over the wicket, six foot six into back of a length. He'd hang leg side and punish me through the offside. So I did loads of strategy work and stats work on him and I realized that he didn't hit the ball straight through mid on and he didn't hit the ball through square leg. You think about left handers standing up and hitting it through the leg side, he was just an offside back foot player. Majority. So I 2019 made a complete technical shift to Try and hit his leg stump. That was my only thing. I don't mind if it goes down the leg side. I said to joss before 19 ashes, sure it was Jos Keeper. Might have been Johnny, actually, I think it was Johnny. I said, just understand that I'm going to be bowling leg side, so don't worry about diving down the leg side. You know, make sure you just give yourself a bit of space there. Because I didn't want him to cut. That was my one rule. And I just started targeting his leg stump because I knew he wouldn't drill me through the leg side. It was going to be a dot. And by the time I got him three times in the first three innings, I thought I've opened something up here. And just because we play each other so much, you got 10 opportunities to get him. If you find a little chink in the army, you don't have time to fix that in a series. So it becomes very difficult for the batter going okay, is it great? Yeah, I think so, yeah.

Ever chatted about it?

No. But he's still playing, isn't he? He's commentating on the Ashes this winter, isn't he, for Fox. So I hope that we can share a glass word. Yeah. I think ultimately a huge feather in his cap in the fact I had to completely change my whole approach for him. Not many players in the opposition team do you study and directly change some of these. In my opinion, in my career, the best third innings bat Tribalda if they bat first, Australia bat first. Get runs on the board and you get bowled out behind them. He's horrific to come into bat because he just takes the game on, takes it away from you. And Even Stokes In 2023, every time we got him Stokes, he would feel a huge relief. He'd say like Warner's the one that scares me because he can just win the game on his own.

21, 22. How close was that tour to not.

Happening know not sure. That's probably a question for chief executives and top of the board. I don't think the players ever had the, the power or the strength to not go. But it wasn't Ashes cricket. The comic became quite famous of it should be void. I never meant that the history of the game should wipe the series away as a result. What I meant is what I view as Ash's cricket is elite performance, best against the best prepped against the people who have prepped the best all equal. And it wasn't, you know, we, we didn't have warm up facilities or locked away in hotels.

And this was because of COVID restrictions, of course.

Yeah, we knew, we, we knew the game needed it financially, but it wasn't Ash's cricket. It was, it was games of cricket going on, but it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't the best against the best. And, and there was a comment that Pat Cummins made at the end of the series because all we'd done in Covid is played cricket in bubbles. We just lived in hotel rooms. Still gives me the shivers coming back to here. And the utiliputable to be honest, because we just got locked in those rooms and waited to net and play cricket. But he said the worst thing about COVID for us as cricketers is that we just haven't had the chance to play cricket. I remember all of us just looking at each other as like, that's not the same for us. All we've done. Yeah, is just play cricket. So you know all the things about the sort of stir that it just didn't feel like Ash's cricket. And that's why this series coming up is so eagerly anticipated because both teams have had solid run ins of proper cricket. Fans can travel and you know, you'll be able to leave a hotel room.

Did it feel worse because maybe deep down you knew that was your last tour of Australia.

Did you know? I probably did. I probably did feel like it was going to be my last. I thought, I thought it could be my last Test series against Australia, to be honest. You know, Ashes aways are always resets and changes and there's a huge amount of changes came. Ashley Giles left, Chris Silverwood left, Ruti stepped down. So big change came. I missed out from the Caribbean after it as well. So of course there were times that Hobart Test where I was thinking, you know, I'll just soak it in. This could be the last test match I play. But you also don't want your mindset to go that route. But feel very blessed that I got the opportunity again in 2023.

Did, did you think you'd make even after that? So the result happened in, in 2122 there was the, the Red Bull reset in, in the Caribbean like you mentioned. And you and James Anderson didn't go on that tour. You came back. Did you think you'd make 2023 even then?

I'd say one of the worst phone calls in cricket I had was Strauss calling me saying I was missing out on the Caribbean because it felt quite final. Five minutes, you're not going. We're going with the younger, younger team. Okay. And the best phone call I had was plus whatever 2 7. Didn't know the number answered it. So I was actually walking down to meet Ruti Forest vs Sheffield United playoff semi final. Hello Broady Basma Cullen in the test squad next week. See you there type thing. And I was like sort of hoping for it but didn't know. So, yeah, once I got that phone call then of course my target was ash is 23 for sure.

Never thought about that your career would end before then or. The reason I asked that is at what point did the idea of ending in 2023 first come into your mind? Even if it was just a. An intrusive, fleeting thought?

Yeah, good question. Always knew I wanted, deep down I wanted my last ball in professional creek to be an England shirt. Always knew I wanted to finish at the top and to do that, you need to make the call. Didn't want to go on too long. Had a bit of a fear of a 21 year old playing against me and going, I thought he was supposed to be good. So I always wanted to make sure because I could definitely play another couple of years. Definitely felt good bowling well, but just rounded up. I didn't know. Honestly, I was really torn. Even the Friday night of the oval Test match didn't know. And I weighed up. Sort of definitely an English. I'm wearing it. England, Australia. I've had such a proud history and loved my battles with them. Been an engaging series. It's amazing. Ended up just feeling like the right time. I'd had conversations before it. I remember here actually, we beat South Africa and Matthew Potts had missed out. So it was me, Robbo, Ollie Robinson and Jimmy and we won. I was having a glass of red with Baz on the balcony. I just said, look, mate, I never want to stand in the way of young bowlers. That is a fact. I don't want to stand in the way of young bowlers. If you think you've got enough strength and depth to take this team forward without me, let me know because I want my last ball to be an England shirt. And he said, no, I want you for the Ashes, man. As soon as he said that, I was like, okay, that's me building up.

To that moment then. But the series as a whole was that, you know, even though you didn't win that series and there'd been times when you'd won the Ashes and you'd had other battles and you'd had other performances, was that your. I don't know favorite.

It was unbelievable. Just firstly, never expected to play all five. Well, we had Ireland before. Yeah, that was never the talk. It was all, any bowlers are going to play two or three, wasn't it just so happened that sort of. I stayed fit, bowled well and. But the drama, the energy, the style, the talking points, it was magnetic, wasn't it? It was just drew everyone in. The devastating feeling of losing at Edgbaston. We felt like we had that game. The drama of that final day at Lords, that was very watchable, wasn't it? It was very engaging. Although what opinion you have on that. And then the sort of energy and fire that Leeds brought to it and headingly crowd and getting over the line in a very tense finish. That's only three gone. It's like, hang on, we've got two to go here. So, yeah, it just had everything. The only. Yes. We didn't get to lift the Ashes at the end. And the rain here was just a sad, dour, disappointing end, you know, to what could have been one of the greatest comebacks what cricket's ever seen, really.

What happened at Lords with Johnny Bastow being stumped and you being the next man in. Firstly, talk me through that day because it felt like if there was ever a situation made for a person to walk into that situation and antagonize, get into the battle, all those sorts of things. Well, it was made for you, wasn't it?

Oh, it was, it was. Gosh, how do I reflect on that? I'll go to the end of the day first. I remember getting home, sitting with Molly and we were watching like this compilation, I think, BBC Sport put together of the nonsense that had sort of done. And I was filled with embarrassment. I was like, oh, my goodness me. Like, what on earth was I doing? What happened? You know, I was 36 years old. How did I let myself get to that stage?

So it's like, you know, putting the bat and the crease in that sort of thing.

But it was red mist, actually, to start with and not necessarily from my opinion on the dismissal. It was walking over that line at Lords and feeling the energy of Lords and just sent me. It triggered something. And then a bit of an altercation with Pat Cummins as I was walking out to bat and something triggered inside me that anyone in a green hat was just getting it, you know, it was. It was the ultra competitive side of me rose. And then after about 20 minutes, I started working with Stokesie and quite deliberately trying to, you know, twist the situation in our way. Really, because how I was behaving had maybe taking the Australians off their plan to Stokesie. So we looked to carry that on and Stokesie played the most remarkable, you know, 150 odd he got. We ended up losing the game quite, quite handsomely, really, and it looked closer than it probably was, but Stokesie was our only, only hope. But it ignited the series incredibly and everyone had an opinion on that, whether it was right or wrong, you know, whether you agreed with it, whether you didn't agree with it. Everyone had an opinion on it and it bought eyes onto the series and brought it back in our favour slightly, because then the English fans were like, properly with us.

How much did it help, actually? Because Edgbaston was a game you probably shouldn't have lost and there were reasons for that. You know, we could talk about the declaration as much as we want. There was some drop catches in there as well. And at Lords there was a situation whereby Nathan Lyon just hobbled off the field and England were in a strong position and found ways of getting themselves out. So you were 2 nil down, having quite heavily contributed to being 2 nil down. How useful, therefore, was it, one for something to change the narrative and had people unite behind the team, but secondly, for you guys to. I'm not saying you needed motivation, but there was a. I don't know, a focus maybe, or a sense of injustice or.

Well, I think it's a really good point that the narrative. If an instant hadn't have happened that day, the narrative would have been England have thrown this away because we had a. Not necessarily to win at Lords, but we'd had situations where we certainly put ourselves on the back foot. We should have won at Edgbaston. A couple of injuries that didn't help at the back end of that. Jimmy couldn't bowl, Moim couldn't bowl. And then we go to Headingley, home of Jonathan Mark Barstow after that incident and it was like we were walking into a cathedral of Bare Stow fans against the Aussies. Do you know, it felt like everyone was with us from that moment and we played some brilliant cricket after it.

But you're 875 in the first innings at Headingley and you need it. Ben Stokes got going again and the game was turned around and we had.

A wobble at the end.

Yeah. And you were next in.

Yeah.

How was that?

Petrifying. Yeah. Woody was the most nervous man I'd ever met. And then he went and got like 20 off 10 balls or something. Yeah, Very tense. But that's what Ashes cricket is because it means so much. I remember sat next in. In the change room at Headingly, going, that's why time is such a weird thing in sport. I was, in two hours, we're gonna know the result of this Ashes series. If we lose this, it's done. It's three nil done. And, like, it's weird, you almost want time to stop. You want to sort of. We've got to get over the line here. We have to win this game. And fortunately we did, because then it sort of keeps the series really, really driving forward.

What about here at Old Trafford? You're taking your 600th wicket during that Test match. But what was that feeling like just watching it rain that Sunday?

Yeah, one of the worst I've had in sport. We bowled first on a flat pitch, really, because we needed. We knew the weather was coming. The forecast was just horrendous, wasn't it? And we bought an icu, bought Australia out relatively cheaply. We scored, played with probably one of the best innings I've ever seen. 500 or whatever we got was that Crawley big hundred at a great rate to give ourselves a chance. And then we had almost, what, two and a half days to get 10 wickets. And the rain just. Just nailed us. And I remember the big temporary stand, however many that holds. There was just one lady with an umbrella. And we were watching. It was at Hoylake. Oh, yeah. Wasn't it? And the golfers were just putting more and more waterproofs on. I just thought, we're done here. There absolutely no prayer. We, you know, I think we went out and played a bit of our football game. Like pig. And our trainers would flood it, you know, just no hope. Actually took me a bit of time to get over Manchester for a bit, you know, I felt quite.

You okay now?

Yeah, I'm okay now. But I felt really sad, really sad at that.

And the oval. Who knew? And the reason I asked that is because Molly was on Test match special at tea time that day, and she gave absolutely nothing away.

Was that the Saturday?

Yeah.

Not Molly. I mean, yeah, Molly would have known then. So I'm. I. Friday night, I called Molly and she just said, I trust you. Gut. I had no gut feeling. So I went. Stokes was just a couple of doors down, so knocked on his door, sort of wandered in and just put my hand out and said, that's me mate. And he was like, what do you mean, so this is gonna be my last game? He's like, what? I said, just feels the Right time. And the reason I told him I needed to verbalize it to someone and.

Was that the first time you'd said.

It to anyone other than Molly, Just.

A question to her.

And Neil Fairber that I'd spoken to as well. And Stokes, he just stood up, gave me a massive hug and was like, thanks, mate. Thanks for everything you've done. And I just said to him as I left the room, just don't tell anybody because I just need to see how I feel in the morning, because I needed that I could reverse it. Woke up in the morning, opened my curtains at, like, 7am overlooking Hyde Park. I just. It felt right. And first person I called was my dad and my mum. And then I called Rob Key at like, quarter past seven because he was. It was like my line manager, if that makes sense now, to let my boss know. And then I, you know, I didn't. What I didn't want is sort of my Knott's teammates or Peter Moore's to find out on, like, social media. So I just told the changing room had got in that morning and so. And then I told the press that.

Night and when the players knew, how did they react? Because I think, you know, you said afterwards that you walked out to bat that day and Mark Wood said it was, you know, it's a great honor for.

Walk past him. Yeah, no, he was in the middle. Yeah. Mo had a massive smile on his face and, like touched gloves and got out there and Woody was like, great honor, great honour to be out there. And that was one of my favorite moments, being out there with Jimmy. At the end. Jimmy played a slog sweep or something for four. Crowd were going berserk. Quarter past six, sun was setting over. I just felt so at peace, like, just soaking everything in. It was amazing, like, quite emotional feeling, like looking back, of knowing that this was going to be the last time I would really, like, know this when no one else knows. Just my teammates, just my family and the crowd going berserk.

Because I guess when you're walking off at the end of the day and you're not out, you know, in your mind, in 10 minutes, 15 minutes, I'm about to tell the world something. Yeah. And from that moment, my life won't be the same.

Yeah. From that moment, you know, I know that I've got a couple of days left of playing cricket and that's it.

And I was. I mean, it couldn't have been any better.

It was the best. Yeah. It was incredible, the freedom I got from announcing it, you Know there's no way back. You know, it's like, okay, just go and play. That sort of saying, try and play like it's your last game. Well, it is. You know, let's just go and have some fun and freedom and be a bit silly. Like the bail changing and all that. It was all just me just relaxing and enjoying and having a bit of fun. And I feel like extremely lucky that it ended the way it did, you know, to finish my last ever professional ball. Taking that favourite wicket you could ever take, which is last wicket to win a test match against Australia. The crowd going berserk. I just felt a complete, completely content.

Here's Broad comes in Bowles Carey's head.

Cheers is out.

Out.

And Stuart Broad takes the final wicket in a dream finale. England have won the match. Absolutely brilliant finish. And Stuart Broad is being hugged and congratulated by his teammates. England have won by 49 runs. Unbelievable. Chris Broad there looking very emotional up on the balcony. Well, he's written a few scripts in his time, but I really can't think Stuart Broad could have had any more of a script than this. Changing the bales around and getting a.

Wicket.

And then finishing it off.

It's.

It is dream finish.

I'll never get bored of talking about it, to be honest, because it's just such. It takes me back to a feeling in a moment that just feels so special. I never wanted to walk off tearing a hamstring in Ahmedabad and never be seen again. And my family were just at home asleep. You know, I wanted my family in the ground. I wanted to share it with them. And lucky to have done that.

The six.

Closed my eyes and swung. Yeah, that was just pure fluke. I think that was the only ball I middled all summer. So it was quite nice that it went for six, actually. I didn't even realise, you know, I just was running off. I had 10 minutes to turn it around and I sat next to Harry Brook and he was like, you know, you last have a ball for six. I was like, oh, yeah, that's quite cool, isn't it?

And the wicket, I mean, it had to be Alex Carey, didn't it, after what had happened at Lords?

Well, yeah, it was. Again, I didn't really sort of realize that or associate with that. It was just the joy of taking the final wicket of a Test match. But, you know, he. I must admit, you know, that was a series would have been full of emotion for him as well with. With everything that went on. So it's been great to see him go from strength to strength as a. As a cricketer, and he'll be a thorn in England side this, this winter as well.

You said you wanted your last piece of action, I guess, as a cricketer to be in an England show, and it was. And you haven't played cricket since. We're on the verge of another Ashes series. At any point, have you thought, I still want to be out there. And if you haven't, is now the time when you might. Maybe that feeling has been strongest of you going, I could have another bit of that.

I've had. No, I've had none of that feeling.

I was dreams about it.

Yeah, you miss certain things, you know, you miss that feeling of a plan working. You hit off, stump out the ground or that wicket that wins a Test match and you're done and you're celebrating with your teammates in the crowd and. But I just. I just feel. So I watch lads now with the England shirt on and just. I'm just like, go on, like, go and do your thing. Go and shine. Yeah, I feel like I've moved on from that period. I couldn't. I don't want to lace the boots up. I've gone through all that emotion and I think for being my choice and finishing on that high, even if I bought another 5,000 balls, I'm never going to get that feeling again. So I just feel so content with how it finished, how it ended, and I still feel close to the game. You know, we got a great job talking about the game, commentating on the game, being out in the middle, getting a feeling for it. So, no, I feel. I feel great joy when I see young bowlers doing well in an England shirt because it's a bit cheesy, it's a bit all black here, but you try and leave that shirt in a good place for the next person to take over. And finishing at the end of an Ashes series, while Brendan McCullum and Stokes is in charge, for young Boller to come in and learn the trade. Good place to go.

Couple of final thoughts. 21st of November, Perth. You'll be commentating. How will you feel?

I feel very excited. I feel England have got to win that Test match, if I'm honest. You've got to start well in Ashes series away. I feel every. Like. I feel like I have felt as a player through every first ball in Ashes series. I watch with a tingle in my stomach with looking around the crowd, looking at the crowd's emotion, and there's just something about the first ball of Ashes series That is quite famous, isn't it? When you think of Harmony's one to second slip, you think of Rory Burns being bold. You think of Zach Crawley's cover drive. Zack Crawley's cover drive is one of my favorite Ashes moments. You know, just the feeling and the eruption of what Edgbaston did that day. Perth. What's that? 70,000, 60,000. The roar of emotion of when whoever it is, Joffre Archer, Mitchell, Stark running into Bol will just be electric.

We've just rattled through your Ashes career in, I don't know, 40 minutes or whatever since you made your test debut. No one has played more Ashes tests for England than you. And you ended up with more Ashes wickets for England than any other bowler. And there'll be countless England fans who remember you for your exploits as an Ashes cricketer and your achievements. How do you reflect on it as how and how will you always think of the Ashes?

It's the pinnacle. It's the greatest rivalry in our sport. It's everything you wish for as a player. It tests everything about you. It's brings out emotion, character, mental strength, technical ability, physical hardship, teammates bonding, going through something together. There's just something about astro cricket that is a bit different and it gives me great pride that if there's any just one fan out there that would link me to Ash's cricket because it's what I grew up in, it's what I wanted to play, I wanted to win. And I, I look back and, and have a huge amount of pride of being able to, to share that journey with a lot of great friends as well.

That was from the Ashes. Make sure you're subscribed to the TMS podcast so you get a notification every time we upload. We'll be bringing you daily podcasts casts from Australia during the Ashes this winter. That's it for now. We'll speak to you next time. The ICC Women's Cricket World cup featuring.

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