Glenn McGrath: “if England go to Adelaide 2-0 down it's game over”

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

Ah, DSW Earth. Place of the humble. Brag here. The shoes are so good, no one would ever know how little you paid if you didn't go telling everyone, that is. And with never ending options for every style, mood and occasion, all at really great prices, we'll definitely give you something to brag about. So go ahead, stock up on fresh sneakers from your favorite brands or try those boots you always secretly knew you could pull off. Find the shoes that get you at prices that get your budget at DSW or@dsw.com Let us surprise you.

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head.

Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes. Wherever you get your podcast.

You'Re listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Hello and welcome to the Test match special pod. The second Ashes Test gets underway 4:30am on Thursday morning. So Wednesday night into Thursday morning, ball by ball commentary with the TMS team on Sports Extra and on BBC Sound. It's a day night test in Brisbane, but as I said this the other day, from our point of view in the uk, it's brilliant because you get, if you, I mean if you're getting up sort of for breakfast, you're going to get a good four or five hours of play all until midday UK time. Now that then also depends how much you want to watch and how painful it will be. But anyhow, England won down in the series after they were blown away in two days by Australia in Perth. We'll look ahead to Brisbane over the next hour in the company of Glenn McGrath and Michael Vaughan and Melinda Farrell. The problem I am finding Micha with a two day test means that you end up not far off trying to avoid doing the same show for three weeks until the next one comes around.

Yeah, good evening. It's not often that I say when I come to Australia I want to see a bit more cricket. I'm actually bored of playing golf. So if England could play a little bit better in Brisbane, let us have a bit more cricket, take it to the fourth or fifth day, it'd be much appreciated.

I am intrigued, Glenn, actually, because it sort of on the one Hand feels a long time ago already that first Test because it was so short and we've waited for this one. I'm wondering, have things calmed down in the Australian media over the last few days? Because that first test now feels like such a long time ago.

Yeah, I think it's come down a little bit. It does feel a long time ago and unlike Forney, I appreciated a couple extra days at home. But yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Especially when Stokes has come out and said they're going to, you know, they're going to up it then you know, even more than what they did in that first test. But I haven't seen too much of a build up. I know we're only a couple of days away now. It will start really, really building up. And especially going into a day night test match where things are supposed to happen even quicker than it would in a normal test. So yeah, it's going to be exciting. Few days.

Going to hear from Ben Stokes very shortly. Glenn and Michael in Sydney at the moment. Mel in. In Brisbane. So what are the conditions like in Brisbane at the moment? Mel, what is the forecast looking like?

Well, before I say that, good evening and can I just say how honoured I feel to. To be on the show with two such highly respected has beens. I myself never was so. So it's a real, it's a real privilege for me as it ever was to be with such illustrious has been. Look, it's as you would expect in bris. It is steamy. It was a little bit nicer actually yesterday. But it's typical Brisbane steamy. There are storms around, they tend to come in and leave quite quickly and we know how good the drainage is at the Gabba so there's not really too much forecast around. There may be the odd shower or storm that builds up but hopefully it won't interrupt play too much. One thing that I will say is that we do expect usually a pink ball test to go very quick. I am not so sure. I am wondering if we're going to see a pitch that's a lot more batter friendly than we might normally expect. A little bit like the pink ball Test in 1617 when Pakistan played and they made 450 in the final innings. They fell short of Australia's target by 39 runs. I've been talking to one of the Australian players who does feel that this looks a bit similar. Maybe it might be a little bit overcooked. So it might not be what perhaps we. We would traditionally expect from a pink Ball test in Adelaide.

Okay. And actually I'll come on to the pink ball side of things in a little while. But, but as far as, as, as the pitch in the wicket is concerned and we can do batting and bowling points of view here, so the pitch curator Dave Sanderski at Brisbane has said, all indications are with the bit of heat around, the wicket will dry out a lot quicker. So you've got to make moisture in it to last five days. We try and make our wickets pretty much the same for four or five, four and five day cricket. The aim is to provide a wicket where all players get a chance to perform their skills so that all facets of the game come into the match. Just park the pink ball if you can. Michael, what what's Brisbane like to batting at?

It can be hard at times with the ball just bouncing just off that length. I'll give England a little tip playing the big straight, batty drives on the up early to a new pink ball, red ball, white ball. In the gabbies they're always a high risk. They went for that strategy in Perth and it didn't quite come off. So it's generally a good cricket wicket and if it is going to be a good pitch, I mean all the talk of maybe no spin, I'd be staggered. If Nathan Line doesn't play, the pitch is good because the pink ball does get soft and you're going to need someone to bow quite a lot of hours, particularly with the heat. So I would think that Australia will play the spinner. I guess the debate for England will they bring in Shoehead Bashir or Will Jack. But I've always thought that in Australia conditions are pretty similar, that for the first 20 odd overs the ball will nip around a bit, there'll be a bit of swing and if you can be still there around the 25th over mark. I think it was last year against India where Australia were, I think they were 89 for 3 after 30 odd overs with the pink ball and then Suddenly from the 30th over to the 80th over, they scored at six runs and over because it got easier, flatter and a lot easier to score quickly. So that's kind of the narrative. Perhaps match cricket, the new ball does a bit. You play it sensibly, you earn the right to score quicker. After 28, the game hasn't changed a great deal.

Chapman, we're going to hear from Ben Stokes very shortly. But bowling then in Brisbane, Glenn?

No, it's a pitch that we, you know, bowlers enjoy bowling on it sure there's going to be something in it. You still have to find that right length. The thing with the Gabba pitch is it always looks like it's got a good covering of grass and touring teams think, oh, you got a bowl on that first and there will be something in it, as there should be in every Test wicket in that first session. But as Vaughnie said, you fight through that, get to 25 overs and there's plenty of runs to be had. And you know, we saw a recent Sheffield Shield match, day night match where Matty Renshaw got 100, Xavier Bartlett got four for. So it looks like there's a bit in it for both. I think, as Mel said, there's a lot of humidity around. I live just above Brizzy and the storms and the humidity and the heat's been, been pretty tough, but that's going to make that ball move around even more and under light. Just hearing a few guys that played in that Shield match, soon as it got bit darker under light, that twilight, if the ball is new enough, it's going to do plenty, which is pretty standard for day night tests. So, yeah, hopefully it's not the same as that test wicket that they played Pakistan on because that was just ridiculously flat. So hopefully a little bit in it and the moisture in the air is going to make the ball move around. So there's a lot more you have to strategically thinking going into a day night test than a normal test as well.

Plenty to get into the makeup both sides. Joe Root's comments about whether an Ashes series really needs a pink ball test. But let's hear from Ben Stokes. Belligerent, maybe you would say after the defeat in Perth, has his tone changed slightly? You decide when you listen to this interview from over the weekend in Brisbane.

You know, we had some good conversations around the group. Wasn't like a sit down or get together. It's not the way that, you know, we sort of do things. It's about choosing opportunities and picking off individuals at the right time to do it and just encouraging those conversations. And I feel that's a, that's a really good way of not only trying to get messages across, but also the best way that we feel is to be able to reflect on things. You know, sometimes if you feel you get into a, an environment where you're all sat around on a huddle and all that kind of stuff, you end up, people might just say things for the sake of saying it.

A lot of the debate as well, after Perth was around the manner of the defeat and some of the dismissals. And then after the game, you pointed out that the way Travis had batted was the way that Australia won it. In terms of the method, did you look at Perth and think it was more execution? And what have you learned about batting in Australia from that first Test?

Yeah, I think you're emotional at the end of a game, whether you know that be nice emotions or good emotions, so you don't have that time of reflection, whether it be good or bad. So that's why it's important for me and the rest of the group to be able to have time to reflect on it. So, look, Travis Head played an amazing knot. There's no hiding away from that. But that's not the overriding contribution as to why we didn't end up getting the result. We did some amazing things throughout that Test match. You know, the way that we bowled in the first innings, we were 100 for one. And we end up putting the score on the board that we believed was definitely defendable. But we all know, and we can look back on that and we have done that and said there were moments in that game where we could have been a lot better to help us gain even more of advantage that we did have. And we know that and we understand that. And the important thing that you need to do from that as a team and as individuals, is learning from that. We've identified those moments we've spoken about as a group, and that's what you can do, you know, execution. Could we have been better at executing what we wanted to do? Definitely. But again, you know, we've got a mindset of playing the game which is looking to put the opposition under pressure, but also trying to absorb that. And sometimes when you go out there and you make a decision, it doesn't always pay out or work in the way that you want it to. And that's what the key for the rest of this tour is, making sure that we stay true to our beliefs of how we play our cricket. But also, we do know that we could have definitely been a lot better in certain areas throughout that Test match.

Some of the criticism that you've had in the past few days is quite personal. Words like arrogant being thrown around, that's quite, quite emotive. How does that make you feel?

Yeah, look, you can call us rubbish, call us whatever you want to be, and, you know, we didn't have the Test match that we wanted to. Again, you know, we were great in passages of that game. I think arrogant might be a little bit Too far. But we'll take the rough of the smooth. But, yeah, I'd rather you know the words like rubbish but arrogant. Sometimes you're a bit like off.

So that's Ben Stokes talking to Stefan Shemelt, the BBC's chief cricket reporter. Do you think the tone has changed a little bit, Michael?

It's absolutely right. When you lose a test match so quickly, there's only two times, actually I've seen Ben Stokes on a cricket field look a little bit lost. And that was Carlos Brathwaite many years ago when he hit him for first four sixes. And then that afternoon in Perth, he just was lost for ideas because Australia played so well and Travis Head came and played in Ashes innings. That will talk for a long, long time. But it's that absorption, absorption of pressure that interests me, because this England team under Ben and Baz, the way that they absorb pressure is completely different to many other sides. The way that they try and absorb the pressures, go on the attack and be really aggressive and try and get a partnership going quickly. And that was their downfall last week. It was their downfall in 2023 at TEDG Bastin in the second innings, at Lords in the first innings. And this is what you're looking for in this England side now, because I've said it recently and I keep saying that they have the tools to be very successful here. They will get themselves into a position of strength in Test matches in Australia again. But will they have that mindset and that ruthlessness to really know when they're on top of and just read the situation and play smarter cricket, that. That's all many ex players are saying. It's just that smartness required when you get on top. It's so hard to get on top in Australia and I think it's 1986, 87 when you go back nearly 40 years, that after four sessions in 86, 87, England were on top. We haven't been since Perth. And after four second sessions in Perth, we're all sat there, 100 for one thing. Just play out that afternoon, see off Scott Boland's four or five overburst, get one more spell into Mitchell Stark, Cameron Green, you know, he wasn't bowling a lot. Nathan Line was injured. You've got a debutant in Dogga. Usman Khawaja was off the feet. Oh, please, just play smartly, just for two or three more hours and then you've got Australia exactly where you'd want them. They didn't do that. They made mistakes and they're now, 1 nil down and we go back to 1954, 55 chapas, when England went 1 nil down, Len Hutton series. On that occasion, they came down here by boat. And when you start going back that far, you know that England have got a tall order to come back from going one nil down here.

Plenty of meetings on the boat on the way there, wouldn't you, on your, on your, on your approach, I would imagine. Look, he said some things that he, he regrets and, and, and maybe even the tone straight after the defeat in Perth. And as, as Michael said, Mel, you know, he looked a bit, for only the second time, in Michael's view, a little bit lost. And he's, he's not the, he's not the first England captain to look like they're caught in a washing machine in the opening test of an Ashes series, is he?

Well, no, I think it's almost half the course. When you look at the hostility of the environment. I think it's important maybe for people to know as well. But Ben Stokes put himself up to do media yesterday. He actually wanted to talk to everyone himself and take on that responsibility. Didn't make the apologies. You know, obviously my tongue very much in my cheek when I was referring to the has beens. He, he wanted, you know, to redress all of that. And I kind of think that's a real sign of leadership or a very good show of leadership by him. You sometimes do see in difficult times that the batting coach and the fielding coach sent out to do media when no one really wants to talk. So I think that's pretty important to acknowledge. And clearly some of the stuff is stung. You talk about being in the bubble and not paying attention to the outside world, but obviously some of those calls of being arrogant, probably more so from that, from the English side of things, may have really struck a chord. And I don't think they want to be seen that way, but just it's interesting what Michael said about, you know, those particular times. I've done a lot of thinking about this in watching England over the past few years, and so much of it has come down to the. Whether they succeed or they fail has been recognizing moments and being able to sense that moment. And we saw it go awfully wrong. When they got it wrong at the oval, for example, they got it wrong in Perth. You look back at that first test against India at Headingley, where they got it absolutely right on that occasion. They did sense the moment when it came to that fourth innings. And so the thing that makes that Relevant here is that with a day night test test, cricket is often about recognizing moments.

Sure.

I think it get gets intensified in a pink ball test because the conditions from day to night, when the ball's doing something, when it's not, when it's good for batting, we've seen more unusual declarations because teams want to be bowling at certain times. So that whole game management becomes an even bigger factor in a day night test. And being able to recognize moments is, I think, huge. And actually when the Australians have been talking over the past couple of days, Travis said, manus labochain the time, the number of times that that word moments came up was really significant. So that's something that the Australians have learned by playing more pink ball tests than any other team and having a great success rate.

And if you want, if you want to seize those moments, if you want to make sure you're on the right side of those moments, then you need clarity. And in what was quite an honest set of interviews from Stokes, where he took quite a lot of stuff on himself, Glenn, he said, do you know, in that first Test, I'm the person who makes decisions about how we go out there and operate. I'm the one who gives the plans to the bowlers. I wasn't as clear as I normally am. The key thing for me is to be completely crystal clear with my bowlers. He's taking it all on. I mean, again, that's leadership, isn't it? He's trying to take it all on his shoulders and protect his attack.

Yeah, I think with Stokesie, it's great. You're the leader, you've gotta do that. And occasionally, you know, with when he said has been. Sometimes you say things that you don't really mean in the, in the media, you know, sports people aren't perfect. And then the media jumps on it and makes a big deal of it. So I have no issues with that. Things happen. But yeah, good to see him taking responsibility. But my biggest thing with that first Test was England have a style of play that they want to play. You know, there's talk about arrogance. Whether that's right word or wrong words, they want to play this way. And when you're front runners, they're amazing front runners because they just take the game away from the other, the opposition, they destroy them. But the difference between a good team and a great team is being able to adapt to conditions. And my. The two biggest things that I took out of that first Test, which England really need to improve on, is they didn't adapt to the conditions that second innings, they played the shots that they wanted to play rather than adapting to the conditions and the ball that the bowlers bowled. So they have to get away from. This is the way I want to play, even if the conditions don't suit. So they've got to be adaptable and being able good enough. They're good enough players, obviously, to be playing at this level. So they need to adapt to the conditions rather than the conditions adapt to them. And the second thing was they didn't learn as the game went on, the way the Australians bowled to, say, Atkinson and cars, they got away from bowling that length, they bowled short. All of a sudden the game looked completely different, you know, with. With Carson and Atkinson put on an important partnership there. And then when Head came out, started taking mod, they went to the exact same plan that didn't work for the Australians. So you've got to be adaptable, but you also have to think on your feet and watch what the opposition does. Okay, that doesn't work. So I'm not going to do the same thing. So, yeah, I want to see England come out and have that adaptability, learning on their feet rather than say, this is the way we play the game. Conditions make no difference. We're going to go out and play it. And if they do that, that's why their record is 5050 with this style of play, which I'm a big fan of this style of play. But you've got to think and you've got to adapt. You got to be a little bit smarter.

Is not adapting the equivalent of arrogance?

It's interesting there, Mark. I always say sports people that talk up how they're going to play are confident. If they turn around afterwards and tell you how they played, that's arrogance. So there's confidence and arrogance. How you play, how you going to play. I love sports. People coming out and being confident, saying, this is what we're going to do. How they've played, what they achieve, what they didn't achieve is not up to them. That's up to everyone else to judge how well you performed. And so over the past, my. My little issue with basball, and they keep coming out and saying how good they are and how they're changing the game and how they're doing this, how they're doing that. That's my issue with, with.

With that.

I want to see sports people playing without fear, backing themselves, but not getting rid of pressure, pretending, oh, no, there's no pressure, no accountability. So there's. Yeah, there's a few things there. Whether that's confidence, arrogance there, there is a fine line there sometimes so it's. I guess that's up to the individual to judge.

Yeah, I mean I, I totally agree with you. They're not arrogant people. They're. They're actually a really good set of guys playing for England. They're just playing a style that we've never seen before. I will give them a little tip. It's not working. So they're the great entertainers at the minute but they haven't won a five match series in this time in the last three or four years and the Oval melt rightly brought up those five wickets for 30 on the last morning. They should have won that series three one at Perth in the first things we're forgetting about the first things ring were 160 for 5 should easily have got 260, 270. They lost 5 for 12. So the method didn't work in the second innings they lost 9 wickets in a session so the method's not working. So if they want to win here in Australia, yes be flamboyant when you get that opportunity but if you're going to be flamboyant all the time in any sport, whatever the sport you play if you play one style whether it's football, whether it's rugby, whether it's hockey, whether it's cricket and this England side so far they've played one style apart from when I saw them face Jasper Bummer in the summer and when they faced gasping the test match that in my opinion the best was bowling in Bumrah Ingham were very sensible. They almost knew that he could only bowl either 24 or 30, well 36 balls max and they thought we'll see him out. Played some nice shots because he went looking for the wickets because he was brought on to get the wicket. So I look at someone like Mitchell start when Mitchell start comes into the attack Mitchell Stark is the aggressor. He's got to get wicked so he's going to go searching the wicket. So if you leave a few outside off stump there's no way in a million years that Mitchell Stark's not going to bring one straight because he's there to get wickets and he's just having that sense and that game awareness. The arrogance is at times with this single side when they bat on in the middle, not when they bowl. I think they're quite a sensible bowling unit. They sometimes quite defensive because they want to just bowl dots. But I look at someone like Harry Brooke. And it was the over before lunch on day one and he danced down and whacked one over mid off. Now it came off and we all went, oh, wonderful shot. But really, is that the way to play Test cricket and the first morning to dance down and whack one over mid off? I'm not too sure. I've not seen it done in the history of the game. Harry Brook is, is a bit genius at times and he plays a game that's beyond many. But I just think in that moment when you're just before lunch, surely Sens tells you you've just got to get in, make sure you're not out and you walk off. Ben, ducky. Actually, in the second innings, just before lunch on day two, Boland was bowling and he danced down to try and whack him. He got hit on the elbow and then there was a big LBW shout. He lost his foot movement and he just looked at a little bit rougher because he'd been hit on the elbow. And they get straight out after lunch. Not saying that that ball to Scott Boland wasn't a beauty. It was. But you kind of look at that dancing down and this England side, they dance down if the ball does anything. They feel that you've got to run towards the danger. And that's, you know, the great saying from Basma Cullum. It's exactly the way that Basmacollum used to play. He used to dance down to try and hit offline. I'm not too sure that's the sensible way to go here in Australia when the ball's just zipping around just, just sharply on, on the regular occurrence that we saw in Perth playing the old school way. I'm not saying go into your shell, I'm not saying. But play like boy. I'm not saying play like Cookie all the time, but please use your sense when the ball's just zipping around slightly.

Let's bring the pink ball back into this then and talk a little bit more about that. Because, Mel, Australia's record in pink ball Test, if you are an England fan, is something to be very, very wary of. In overall, in pink ball test played 14, won 13.

Yeah, it's. Well, they've played more than anyone who was here, really, that the whole concept kind of took hold and they've, they've stuck stubbornly with it, making sure that there is a day night test largely because of the, the different time zones in the country and wanting to have prime time cricket when it's not outside of the School holiday period on the east coast where there's a big population. So Australia have invested in it and it means they've had pink ball rounds in the Sheffield Shield as well. So the players just have more experience with it and it's still a relatively small sample size. You're not talking about a huge amount of games. A couple of players that have exceptionally good records with it. Manus Labochain has a great record with the pink ball. Mitchell Stark has an outstanding reputation and he has no idea why. If you ask him, he'll tell you he doesn't know why. I think it's just that he's quick, his left arm tall, and because the pink ball actually swings a bit later, that becomes an even more potent weapon. Scott Boland also has a really good pink ball record, so they've had a lot of success with it. Not easy for teams to come in Australia don't play with it all the time. But I think a lot of it comes back to what I was saying too, about the moments in that they have. They. They understand the. The whole rhythm of the game because it does tend to have a different rhythm to Red Bull Test match cricket. So. So I think the fact that it's a format that's not played often, but their experience is just so much more than anyone else and they understand when you need to be doing things. It all sounds fine in theory, but you can sort of say, well, we're going to. We want to be batting at this particular time or bowling at this particular time. It doesn't always work like that. Sometimes it doesn't start hooping around under lights. So it's more. I think it's more about just really recognizing the second that something different starts to happen with that ball and being able to change your plans or move. Move your plans around.

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eye walls are going to come out of your head.

Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes. Wherever you get your podcast.

You'Re listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live. Welcome to Tail Enders. I'm Greg James. He's Felix White.

Hello.

And that is England's greatest ever bowler, Jimmy Anderson. Hello, readers, be cheerful. England's fast Bowlers blitzed Australia in the first innings. Stokes, FIFA, Harry Brooke, Ollie Pope. Ben Duckett looked great at the crease. Carson Atkinson getting some runs. There's stuff going on there.

Having said that, I think we're in the driving seat, you know.

Yeah. There's only one thing that Ben Stokes.

Can do to answer everyone's issues and.

That is win the second test.

That's it, isn't it? Tail enders watch on iPlayer, listen on BBC Sounds. This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

I hope I'm not being too negative here, Michael, but do you know what slightly concerns me in the build up to this is the different reactions of two players who've been asked about it. So Joe Root, and I know what he's saying here, was asked about a pinball test. I personally don't think it adds anything. It's successful and popular here. Australia have got a good record here and ultimately, you know, from two years out, it's going to be there. It's part and parcel of making sure you're ready for it. But does a series like this need it? I don't think so, but it doesn't mean it shouldn't be here either. So there's a wariness there. Travis Head, on the other hand, we've embraced it. We've been able to put on a good product, play really well with it. Pink ball, white ball, Red Bull, who really cares? Does it need it? Does it not? It's a great spectacle. We're going to have huge crowds again. I think it's great for the game. It's like we're already going into it in a bit of a crikey. Pink ball. They're going into it. Brilliant. Bring it on. Here we go.

I actually agree with Joe. I don't think the Ashes does need a pink ball game. He's just asked a question, he's answered it honestly. So we shouldn't talk, Travis?

No, I'm not in that sense, but it's more actually, Travis heads. We don't care. Pink ball, white ball, Red Bull. Bring it on. We're going to enjoy it.

Yeah, but, you know, let's just give the England fans out there a small glimmer. Chappers. You know, the one game that Australia have lost with the pink ball was at the Gabba when Shimajiosi bowled one of the great spells. We were there and it was incredible. I do giving them a bit of a. A warning sign, though, because Australia, they look like they were kind of on the beach. That Week, you know, they were tunnel up in the series and they weren't quite on it. There was a lot of tide bowlers. This Australian side, they're not going to. I don't think they're going to play any worse than they did in Perth. That for me was England's great opportunity because Australia, without Cummings and Hazel, they're still not there. I mean Melon and Glenn will tell you more about Usman Khawaja's situation. But I think Australia will be stronger this week. So whatever England do, they have to play a lot better than they did in Perth. They've got to play a stronger game for longer periods. It's all the talk of the batters and the way that they play. But I had real great concerns about the bowling Unit in the second innings. I know they only had 30 odd overs rest but you know they didn't bowl a great deal on day one. And I know the emotions of bowling Australia out the first days of an Ashes test match that can, you know, kind of get to you and then you're bowling pretty much a few hours later. But the paces were so far down and if the heat is exactly what it's going to be and it's not going to get any cooler, you know, it's not going to be something like Perth, which was a cool week for, for Perth conditions I have a condition. I have a bit of a worry or two about the England bowlers being able to cope with the heat because you know, I'll keep going back to it. Chap is that this England side just haven't played enough cricket. You know, they haven't and it's not playing all the games but they just haven't spent enough time in the field. The skill sets of bowling or batting, you can, you can work on that in the net situation. I'm more concerned about the bodies being out in the field because they just haven't been out in the field for long enough periods. And it was just that that second innings in Perth where I looked at the bowling paces, I thought, oh, this isn't a great sign. So it's not just the batting that's got a little bit of an issue.

I thought, I thought you started that. Answer with let's give England fans some hope.

Yeah. But then I had to be truthful.

I mean it went downhill. Quite.

Answer from Apologies, apologies.

I'll come to the makeup of the team very shortly but just. And this is linked to the pink ball as well. Alistair Cook pointed out in the Times Atkinson and Carson haven't played a pink ball test. Jamie Smith hasn't played the pinball test either. Glenn, Four of the others have only, only played one. Just from a bowling point of view, to have never. And we contrast that with, as Mel pointed out, Mitchell Stark's unbelievable record with a pinball. That's a huge difference. And how I know they'll be in the nets with a pink ball and so on and so forth. How quickly you need to adapt to a pink ball, how different it is as a bowler.

Yeah, well, unfortunately I didn't get to bowl with the pink ball, so I can't speak from experience, but I agree with what Vaughny was saying there, that you need to spend time out in the middle and it's the same with the pink ball. You need to spend time out there in the middle. You can train and practice all you want in the nets. That first game of the year, you still pull up stiff and sore, so you need to be bowling, you need to be batting out the middle. Different, different mindsets. So that's, I think, an issue to start with. The pink ball. Yeah, it's about timing when you're bowling, when you're batting makes a big impact on the, on the game itself. And, you know, we, we've spoken a little bit about Mitchell Stark. If you thought he was a handful in Perth, you know, he's. You can times that, you can double that with the pink ball in his hand. So it's going to be interesting to see how English players go about it. It is completely different and this will be a good opportunity to see how well they can adapt, can adjust to conditions. Yeah, normally when the ball's doing plenty, moving around, the confidence of the bowler goes through the roof. So that's an upside there. You know, if you're running in and it's flat, it's not doing much, you know, it's hard work. As soon as that ball starts swinging, your confidence goes up and it's a different sort of mindset for the bowlers. So hopefully that's a positive for, for the English bowlers that haven't bolted in these conditions before. But yeah, it's going to be interesting. So, you know, as soon as afternoon storms have been rolling through, you know, Southeast Queensland there for the last week or so, and the humidity goes through the roof and everything else, so that conditions. And when it's hot and humid like that, it can drain you, especially if you're not used to it.

This is also going to be an England attack, Mel, that will have no mark Wood, which is a huge miss in the pinball. He took nine wickets when he last played in a day night test against the Aussies in 2022 in Hobart. And it's also a big miss because, you know, as we mentioned on previous shows, the whole England plan was to target this series and target Australia with pace and they've lost one of their main guns.

Yeah. And when I was in Durham, sort of towards the end, like in September, I got this sense up there that his knee was continuing to blow up once he reached really high pace. And I think that's kind of what's happened here. He was limping around it all in like a brace yesterday at the Gabba. We might only see one more test out of Wood, if he's able to play at all. So it is a huge loss. They had a really, really long training session yesterday. England, they've been there the last couple of days at the Gabba and they trained the house down last night, so under lights in particular. But I, having watched it as well, I actually hope that they open. I hope Ben Stokes decides to open the bowling himself because he looked really good with that pink ball and without Mark Wood there, I just. I just think he's a really good option with that new ball. And I was like, Vaughn, I was tracking those speeds as well. And. And you saw it's comparing them, say Mitchell Stark, when he came back and bowled in the second innings, because they didn't have very long off his. His average speed probably dropped by 2 or 3 kilometers per hour. But the. The English bowlers are dropping. You're talking like more than 10Ks in a few instances as well. So. So that is definitely something that, that I think they're going to have to look at. For me, the interesting selection for England's bowling is going to be the spin question because I just. I don't know, I could be wrong, but I have a feeling that it could be a test where both sides are going to need a spinner. If this wicket is as flat as perhaps it could be. And then you've got the interesting question of Showed Bashir and Will Jax, who bowled a lot in the nets yesterday and actually both looked pretty good, to be honest, the ball wasn't doing much. That's going to be, for me, I think, a really key selection point, whether they want to strengthen their batting and their batting depth with Will Jacks, or if they want to go with the spinner that they've spent the last few years investing in so heavily when he wasn't Even when he wasn't being able to be first choice spinner or second choice spinner at Somerset.

Go on then, Michael. What's the, given all those, all those issues that Mel's brought up there, what's the makeup of the England attack then?

Well, I think we'll find out straight away whether they're going on there. You got to remember the Basballers generally go on the positive side of selection. If they pick Will Jax, they're picking it Jax because they're worried about the runs. Now Will Jax's record as an osmosis is a part timer really. He's had a few wickets here or there but you know, they bought into Shai Bashir for a few years for Australian conditions. So if they're going to play this spinner, dare I say it'd be quite negative of the England side if they went with Jax because they'd be worried about their batting. But that would probably be the best way to go. What I couldn't understand with someone like Shoe Bashir, such a young bowler, you know, and I know conditions in Canberra are completely different but, you know, surely a young spinner who's never bowled with a pink ball would want to go and bowl a few overs with a pink ball in the middle if he's got any chance of playing this week. So, you know, I, I think they will need someone that can bowl overs, you know, a lot of overs. Because I can't imagine it's going to be similar to Perth where you're blowing teams out in 40 hours. I think it's going to be more of a week where you have to do a bit, bit more of the graft out in the middle and we'll keep mentioning the heat but you're going to need someone to, to bowl the overs. I like the idea of Ben Stokes bowling early. I do like that Mel, because I actually looked at him in Perth and I was crying out for him to bowl sooner in the first things. He's just got the knack. He was England's best bowler in the summer against India and he almost has to realize how good a bowler he is. And I watch him captain and he's got great empathy with his players and he's an incredible captain because he kind of always gives the players that moment. He's got to realize that for England to win down here, I think he's got to grab the ball earlier. He's the bowler that can really spice up this, this test series by getting wickets. He's got that knack. He's got Ian Botham kind of qualities. He doesn't even have to bowl well. And he got. He got five wickets. Him. He was probably the worst of the seamens. He got five for in 36 balls. But that's what Ben Stokes does. So I'd like to see him with that pink ball earlier. England have got a chance this week. It's a. It's a chance of coming back and doing something that is hard to do. Winning in the Gabba, winning in Brisbane. But they have a great chance because they've got the tools. It's just whether they're going to use these tools correctly. And that's the big if.

What's your 8, 9, 10, 11 then.

I'd be bringing. Well, it just depends on. I need to see the pitch. I'm going up there today. But you know, if you're going to go with your best bowlers. Ben Stokes, Brandon Cast because Atkinson. I love Josh Tong. You know, I really like Josh Tong. You look at his record, he got 18 wickets in the summer against India. You got five against Australia in the one Test in 23 and he's a wicket taker and you have to get 20 wickets. So Josh Tonga be coming in for me. Obviously, Joffre Archer plays. I've probably picked about 15.

I would say you've just done a tough null and given me a yeah, because you have to leave. If you're going to play a spinner, you've got to leave one of those out.

I, I personally, I don't think I'm playing the spinner.

Okay.

I just don't think England have a good enough spinner for these conditions at the moment. So I'll be playing all my quicks and if I need a bit of spin, I know Joe's traveled a bit in Australia with the oversight. He's bold. I think England will get 20 wickets if they bowl well with the scene bowlers. I can't. I can't imagine Will Jackson show Bashir getting four or five wickets at the Gabba. So I'll be picking my seamers.

Michael Atherton has gone for Will Jacks and he went back to West Indies beating Australia at the Gabba in early 2024 and highlighted Kevin Sinclair, an off spinning all rounder who had a crucial role to play. Unbeaten half century in the first innings, useful runs in the second. Took the wicket. Osman Khawaja in that. He's used that as an example and therefore said he would pick Jax over Bashir. He hasn't mentioned which or not that I can see which which of the other bowlers he would pick leave out. What would you do Glenn? And I'm asking you what you would do for England to win not to sabotage.

If you've got a quality spinner there's no doubt if the ball seems around it's going to turn. Shane Warne always said that Nathan Lyons record with a pink ball is actually pretty good. I think he's got the second most wickets tied with Pat Cummins at 43. So a quality spinner can do well in those conditions. But I probably agree with Vaughny. You know their strength is their fast bowling attack, their spinners not quite probably what you would hope they would be. You know when England won that won the toss in Perth I thought they would have just bowled you know with the attack they had and they loved chasing so that surprised me as well. But I think going into, into this test up here I agree with 40. I think they'll probably bring Josh Tongue in for, for Mark Wood would be the way to go and then we'll see how we go from there.

Okay?

Yeah.

Chapter just if you play Will Jax, you know he's gonna have to bowl a number of overs because if you go in with the four quicks Ben Stokes being one, we keep talking about Ben and he's a brilliant bowler but the one thing that we, we can't see happen for England is Ben Stokes bowl an 8 to 9 over burst. This is a five match series and we've seen it in the past. We saw it against India in the summer. You know if you're only playing four quicks which is the usual way to go but four England seamers in these conditions if one goes down and let's be honest there's always a chance that that can happen for both teams. You know I wouldn't want to see Ben Stokes because Atkinson Brighton Cars bowling a huge amount because I could see one or two of the bodies and Joffre Archer. So will Jacksonville plays or show up? They're going to have to bowl a lot of overs.

Michael talks about the danger of a seamen going down. Is that Mel, why there is still sort of caution around Cummins?

Well yeah I think Australia are taking the cautious long term view with Pat Cummins remembering that between his first and second tests he spent six years out of the game battling recurring stress injuries. So you look at that history and he's actually been really durable since, since then. But is the captain, the plan is for him to be captain for, for a while yet and for him to be playing for a good while yet. So, so I think that you know, they are taking that long term view and the fact that Australia won the last Test and did it so well with Mitchell Stark leading the Test probably made that decision a little bit easier for Australia as well. They said they would have had the same conversations if Australia had been one down. But you can't deny it does make it a little bit easier to make that, that decision anyway and say sit another test out and make sure that you're really, really good to go because if Australia can manage to come away with a win here then you go to Adelaide and all of a sudden you've got Pat Cummins back. We don't know at the moment quite where Josh Hazelwood is. So then your attack gets stronger. So you know, I think that, that they're just, just taking that, that cautious view because in the past they have made mistakes with Pat Cummins as well and he's paid a price for it.

Glenn?

Yeah, no, I think a lot of it did. If Australia had lost that first Test I reckon Pat Cummins would definitely playing up in, up at the Gabba. I saw him briefly at, over in Perth there he'd been bowling well in the nets. He said he was feeling great and ready to go. So I think with the fact that Australia won that first Test it just gave a little bit an option just to not rush Cummins back just yet and hold him off for another Test. So yeah, I think that was a crucial win for Australia in respects to Pat Cummins recovery and when he's coming.

Back to play so you, so he is fit to play but there's no point rushing him. Is that your understanding?

Maybe I'm, you know, maybe it's not quite as black and white as that, but I think there's a fair bit that goes into that. The fact that Josh Hayes, what there's rumors going around that he's not going to be back for this series at all, which is a, which is a massive blow. So yeah, you want to sort of protect, you know, Pat Cummings came back, played in, you know, a little bit earlier and did his back or got injured again, then that's, that probably puts him out for the rest of the season. So it just gave the Aussies another option there.

It's probably worth remembering that when, before the series when, when Pat Cummins got that stress hotspot, it was going to be really tight. They always sort of had said it would be a minimum of four weeks after he started bowling for him to Be able to play like a minimum and he's actually done really well. You know, he was back bowling looks great as Glenn said in the nets in Perth and he's looked great in the nets nets here in Brisbane as well. But it was, you know, you talk about that month, I think we're probably, we're probably about five, maybe five weeks in. So it's still very close to that bare minimum of four. And normally you would come back from that kind of injury bowling for a certain period of time and then maybe playing, you know, a first class match or something like that to then get those, those overs, constant overs in the legs in, in a match situation and he's going to be coming in cold to a test match. He's really, he's done that before. But you can understand why they're being careful because he's almost progressed a little bit faster than what you might normally expect someone to do.

If I'd have said to you just on going back to Mitchell Stark, Glenn when he came into the Australian squad for his first test that eventually he will go past because he needs three wickets to go past Wiseimakram, but he would go past Boazimcram as the most successful left arm quick in the history of the game. What would you have said?

I would have said he had the potential. Mitchell Stark has that X factor. He's a wicket taker. When he gets it right with that ball swinging, there's no one, I think in the world that's a bigger wicket taker than him. Wazi Mackram to me is one of the most gifted bowlers I've ever seen. What he can do with the ball, swing it both ways. Unbelievable. The fact that Mitchell Stark's coming up on par with was, is an absolute, which is nearly one of the biggest compliments you could give someone else. So yeah, Mitchell Stark, what I liked about him in the, in the recent sort of year or two is how he's got that control. He knows his game so well now, so he's got, when you add control to that sort of X factor, you know he's, he's pretty special. So yeah, you know, when he first started, you're not sure, but he had that X factor. The fact that he's had that longevity, played 100 Tests, over 400 wickets, now closing and it was unbelievable record and shows just how good he is.

It's incredible, isn't it Michael? You know, maybe look here with nostalgia because Wasim Akram was Wazim Akram, but it is a phenomenal Achievement.

Yeah. And to think that he stepped up in that first game when there's no Cummings and Hazelwood. So there was pressure on him to be the senior pro and he delivered two or three brilliant spells. It's that wobble scene that he's bowling to the right hand as he generally used to always try and swing the ball back into the right hander and he a bit wayward. I think you felt that you could score quite quickly off him and you know, it's that ball that's going across the right hander now. You can see it when he, he kind of runs and he puts his fingers across the seams. I just wonder whether England have any kind of thought of having an early indication. Alistair Cook was saying about the non striker, you know, when you're facing reverse swing, you'd have the bat in either hand, you know which way it was, which way it was going. So you have to trust your partner. I'm a bit wary of that because there's a few dumb people out there that put the bat in the wrong band and completely do.

Yeah, well, just absol. Forget that that's what they were meant to be doing for that particular spell and just start looking somewhere and oh, I've got the bat in the wrong hand.

But there's these little 1 percenters that you can deliver as a team and if he is running in with the ball across the seam like this with his fingers, you do know that that's going to be the ball that's kind of nipping across the right hander which was the major threat with the pink ball. The major threat is going to be that hoop back. He swings a pink ball better than anyone at decent pace and I guess England this week, if they play Mitchell Stark. Well, if it's going to be Doggett, if it's going to be Boland, Obviously they didn't look like they wanted to use a great deal of Cameron Green, but if they can play Mitchell, start well this week, it'll go a long way to the result in the game.

What do they do with Usman Khawaja, Glenn?

Yeah, he's not a spring chicken, is he? I think he's going to be 39 later this month. He's still a great player of spin, but I think the pace bowlers unsettle him a bit now. He just, you know, your reactions are not quite as good as they used to be. So. So with this England attack with the pace, I'd be, I'd be so tempted to stick with that second Innings with, you know, Travis Head coming up the order, then you can strengthen that middle order, whether Josh Inglis or, you know, or someone like that comes in. So we'll wait and see. But, yeah, I wonder how many, how many matches Uzi has left in him at this level.

What are the indications, Bell?

Well, he was at training yesterday. He wasn't there the previous day, but he was there.

Was he at golf the previous day?

Oh, don't, don't, don't. Stark played golf before the first test and took all those wickets.

So I think old cricket is a golfers these days and they play an occasional game of cricket.

I don't know if it's taken over here in England. It's all about the paddle. Paddle is the new golf for, for cricketers. But, yeah, so he was there and battered for, for a decent period of time in the nets. My feeling has always been, even after Perth, that they would play Usman Khawaja if he was fit for this Test. I don't think they like to be seen as reactive. I don't think they like to change a winning team. Rightly or wrongly, I think England would prefer to see Usman Khawaja opening rather than Travis Head. So you look at what the opposition would want you to do. But I do have a feeling that they might stick with him. One thing that I thought was really interesting during the week, Andrew McDonald and actually asked Travis about this as well, is talking about that they have been talking about for quite a long time, the Australian team, in changing the batting order around within tests from innings to innings. So obviously we saw Marness and Travis open in Perth when Ousmane Khawaja couldn't take the field. But that idea of Travis Head coming in as almost a pinch hitter when the circumstances suggest it could work at the top of the order, they've actually kind of been toying with that idea for quite a while. So the fact that it worked so successfully in Perth makes me wonder if we might see that a little bit more in general from the Australian side and perhaps throughout this series when they, when they see that there's a moment that they could take advantage in letting someone loose like Travis Head. And he, you know, he has said himself that he wanted to step in as opener back when they were experimenting with Steve Smith and Marnus Labochain. But when, after David Warner's retirement, he's been keen to do that, but it was sort of seen as okay. You can do it in. Maybe in India or in Asia, it's okay, but not in Australia. So that was a significant moment, I think, for a number of reasons, beyond the result of that first test, in maybe how Australia approached their batting lineup.

I mean, you nodded there, Michael. England would prefer Khawaja opening to head, wouldn't they?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think he's averaging 18 in the last couple of years against pace, so. So, yeah, I think they feel that they can control us, but I don't think they feel that he's going to hurt them too much. He's been a wonderful player. When you're nearly 39 years of age and you're having to face Joffre Archer and riding Carson because Atkinson At 85, 90 miles an hour, it's not easy. But I'll be intrigued to say I would think he's going to play. I mean, if you're going to drop someone like Osman Quad, you wouldn't have picked him in the squad. Now he's in the squad, I think he'll play. You know, I do think England have got a chance this week because if Usman plays at the top of the order is a lot of pressure on him. I know it's his home venue and he generally plays nicely there, but I do think there are. There are a small few cracks in the Australian side that England could target. I mean, they target did that first day brilliantly in Perth and there was cracks starting to open up. Within a few hours, they'd lost the game. So this Australian side are a good team, but they're certainly beatable. It's just about playing strong cricket for a long, long period of time. You just can't bat 67.5 overs in a test match. You just can't. You've got about at least 78g overs per innings. If they can get something like 600 runs in the Test match, 650, they'll have a great chance. That's the big if. Can. Can they bat a period of time to get that amount of runs? If they do, under Ben Stokes and his captaincy and how clever he is out in the outfield, I think they'll create opportunities. It's just a matter of can the batter show up and just bat with a little bit more sacrifice sense?

Can you envisage a scenario like that, Glenn, where England win it like this?

Well, they'll have to win it really, won't they? To go 2 nil down in an Asher series, the series is basically, you know, all over. So I think for the England fans, for the state of this whole series, England really need to Bounce back in this test match and. And walk away with a win under their belt and to go into Adelaide one all.

It's.

It's, it's series on. If they go in Adelaide 2 nil, it's. It's basically, you know, game over, one.

All or 2 nil going into Adelaide. Mel, what's your prediction? I'm not asking. I know what Glenn's prediction is, obviously, but, you know, you know, I always.

Say predictions are a muds game, but.

They are. They are, Mel. But they're always a good way to finish a show.

They are. And look, there's an Australian. That one out the window. That's. I'm going. I'm going all in. I never do this, but I'm going all in on England to bounce back. They managed. Managed in the past to pull out wins when you least expect it. I said before this series, I did feel it could swing one way and another sort of bit dramatically along the way. I never do this. I'm all in on England.

Wow. One, one, Michael.

Well, the last time, well, the only time in my time that England have won down here, they won three of the last four test matches. So that's exactly what this England side have to do with. Do I think they're gonna do it? No.

Well, there we go. We ended on a positive there as well. Mel and Michael and Glenn love it. I mean, it's been a joy with it so wet and windy here all day and all evening to see two of you sat in early morning Australian sunshine. I mean, that's just added to the pack. Oh, thanks, Michael. What a lovely view. Clear blue sky, two wispy clouds, couple of palm trees. Lovely. Thank you very much for that. Continue to enjoy the weather, the three of you. The second Test in Brisbane starts at half four Thursday morning. TMS will go on air on Sports Extra at 3.25daily pods at the moment. There's a TMS top 10 on there as well. Thank you to all three of you.

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 5, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are gonna come out of your head.

Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.