Has year six of the The Hundred been a success?

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, welcome to the Test Match Special Podcast. This is Henry Moran. As The Hundred heads towards its conclusion in year 6, it's been a very different looking tournament this year, and on this edition of the podcast, We'll be hearing from 2 of the senior figures in charge of making it all happen shortly. Richard Gould, the ECB CEO, will be bringing me his thoughts about the competition and also some wider issues around the English game. But first, let's hear from the tournament director, Vikram Banerjee. I began by asking him for his thoughts on this year's competition.

I think it absolutely has been a better edition than the last. It's been one of the best, in my opinion. First and foremost, the cricket on field is unbelievable and so many memories, whether that's Tim David's catch that then wasn't the best bit of fielding even in that innings. You know, Breviss's no-look six, Phoebe Litchfield scoring the fastest 50. There's been some unbelievable bits of cricket and the quality now is, you know, second to the IPL, I think, by a clear distance in both men's and women's. But we've also had great engagement, great building of fandom, whether it's from the kind of the shirts and the giveaways in Manchester and Leeds, which has seen people wear them not just at the cricket, but I've seen them in Leeds city centre or Cardiff or wherever it may be. Our broadcast numbers are looking good. Our audiences following us online are all doing some great, great numbers. So we're growing, we're doing great stuff. So I think it has been our best.

So why are crowd numbers down?

Well, I think overall our engagement and our fandom is up and up quite considerably.

What does that mean?

So if you combine— crowd numbers are one thing where we're broadly flat. We've had a really good momentum over the last couple of years— a couple of weeks, sorry. So we're now broadly flat. But it's not the only measure of engagement and fandom of this tournament. There are loads more people watching at home on their tellies. There are loads more people watching on their iPhones and iPads and all the other tablets that you can have. So engagement of the tournament across the globe, fandom of the tournament and the teams is, is shooting up and doing really well.

Has it been an unqualified success this year?

I think there are— every year there are learnings that you take. Every year we want to get better, we want to improve, we want to get bigger. And this year is no different. The amount of change that's happened behind the scenes, is unprecedented in any sports competition. I think we've done a brilliant job. I'm really happy. But of course, there are things that you've logged and things that we're chatting now about. Well, okay, the even better is things we can do even better, our X, Y, and Z. So, you know, '27 will be bigger and better than this year.

And what are those things?

Across a number of areas, whether you're looking on the fields, you know, can we go even better with the product and even better with the quality of cricket? We're looking, yeah, sure, at the attendances and can they go up again? You know, we'll have the Ashes, Men's Ashes and Women's Ashes next year. And so that will hopefully rise kind of people thinking about cricket, talking about cricket, which historically has had a positive impact on The Hundred. Can we do better with our digital products and how people follow? People are now following sports in different ways. So can we meet them where they are in a better way than we've done this year? So There are improvements in a number of ways.

And what about behind the scenes in terms of the investors? What have they found frustrating about the process?

I think on the whole they're in a good place and they're happy as a year one coming in, a lot of them not from the UK. So whether it's America or Sydney or India, they're from different areas. They've come in, learnt about English cricket and English sports ecosystem. They're in a really good place. What's brilliant, though, from my perspective, is there now is the hunger and the passion and the excitement and the ideas. I've had to buy an extra battery pack for my phone, but that's really good as they are calling and thinking of ideas and new ways in which we can go forward now. So I'm really excited about what that means. It'll be a busy winter, but what it means coming into the '27 season.

Any secrets? What can you tell us?

No. Well, it would ruin the surprise, wouldn't it? Really surprise.

That sense of identity has been a big question mark because, say, here at the Oval, there was a real broad base of fans for the Oval Invincibles and that has now been lost. Do you acknowledge that lots of teams in the same colours, players moving around, it has felt like at times it's a bit of a sort of hard tournament actually to get a bit of a grip of?

Yeah, I think it's been a, it's been a reset year. That was always the plan, was to, to For a tournament to grow in the long term, you do need a bit of jeopardy. We wanted to equalize the teams. As much as it's great for the Oval to win 3 years in a row, from a tournament perspective, we wanted it that anybody could win it and anyone can win any game. And with that, the quality that's gone up and the new players that have come in that we didn't previously have, we want fandom to grow, we want fandom to deepen, we want tribalism. And yes, that will take time. But it's, it's been a really good start this year. And then as that builds and develops over the next couple of years, I think we're in a good, solid foundation.

Are you concerned that certain identity might have been lost in certain areas of that fandom has been slightly eroded?

Yeah, but we've built on it in other areas. So, yeah, you know, overall, overall, Invincible's had a brilliant following here. But My London will have an equally brilliant following. My London had a 4-year head start. There's been quite a lot of those that have transferred across and they did the shirt swap, which has worked really well. So fans were able to hand in their shirts and get a My London shirt. And across all the, all the venues and all the grounds and all the teams, there's been some things that have built. And what we— again, as I say, what we've got now is an ability to really go again for the long haul. with these teams and brands that we have got.

Will you guarantee there will be no gambling sponsors on shirts next year?

There are no visible betting partners next year or going forward.

Can you guarantee that?

Yes. Okay.

Some players have suggested quality down a bit this year. What would be your response to that?

Not what I've seen. I've seen an incredible increase in the quality. Clearly you can't please everyone, but I think what I've seen both in the men's and women's has been extraordinary cricket. I think it pulls, you know, the IPL and WPL is they are where they are, especially with the Indian players. But we have we are now second behind them. I don't think without a shadow of doubt.

And just finally, do you accept the notion that or the concerns that some have that England is now becoming too enthralled to that Indian market?

No, I don't think I do. I think English cricket on the whole is growing and doing really well. Obviously, performances on the field go up and down. That's, that's the nature of sports. But I think we wanted to bring into The Hundred the very best across a number of different areas, whether that's cricket, sports, fan engagement. And the IPL has done extraordinary things and it would have been foolish of us not to bring in that skills and expertise. Like we have. But I think with them, we've got a great mix. You know, the London Spirit owners with what they bring from a digital and fan engagement perspective is out of this world. So I think the blend is, is we've got it about right for The Hundred.

Well, that was Vikram Banerjee sharing his thoughts on this year's Hundred, the good, the bad, and everything in between. And I'm pleased to say that alongside me, we've got a World Cup winner in Alex Hartley and also an Ashes winner in Steven Finn. Inevitably, Steven, There's going to be a lot of positivity coming from ECB towers, but how would you assess what you've seen this year?

Uh, well, look, I, I think the, the tournament was always going to go through a, um, a period of settling in again. I think that the, um, the pumping in of the money by— or the selling of the franchises, I think, was going to cause a degree of turbulence. I think changing names and kits as well, I think, causes a degree of turbulence, especially when people have built up an affinity To the team that has played there before. I think also the transferring of the responsibility for ticket sales away from the ECB and to the home clubs as well, I think was seen in that first week of the attendances being down quite considerably in that first week, albeit it has picked up after that. So yeah, I think we anticipated teething problems. I think we've had them, but now we're at the crux of the competition. We've had some entertaining games along the way.

Vikram Banerjee, Alex, was absolutely certain this was a better tournament this year than last.

I'm glad he thinks so because I don't know. I think the men's has been— I, I think the men's has picked up in standard as the years have gone on. They've got better overseas involved, they're paying the overseas more money, so they're, you know, the world's best overseas are coming over and playing in the competition. Um, but for the women's competition, the, the numbers have been down. The crowds, I think, have been disappointing. The eliminator, 10,000 in for that, that, that's disappointing for me, to be honest with you. And I don't think the women's game has been as good as we've seen it in the past. I think there's been a number of reasons for that. I think a little bit of leeway that we've just come off the back of a home World Cup and that, that takes a lot out of you as a player and a lot of your energy. The extra overseas into the competition means our domestic girls aren't doing as much. I don't think they've had as much opportunity. in this year's Hundred as, um, they have in the past. And the first inning scores have been down. And although the stats say that we've had some low-scoring thrillers, well, they've not exactly been thrilling to watch.

So other than that, no, Finny. Uh, Alex understandably sort of picking out a few elements on the field that haven't quite worked. Do you, do you understand that? Subscribe to that?

Uh, yeah, look, I think the women's game, the 4 overseas players, I think is is a problem for it. I think that it means that there are too many young English qualified cricketers who aren't doing anything in the game. They're batting and not bowling, and I'm not sure that makes us better as a, as a cricketing nation, especially how much the tournament has done over the last 5 years to, to help the professionalism of the, of the women's game and the doubleheaders. One of the really charming things about, about the competition has grown as a result of both teams Um, that both teams putting on a spectacle. So yeah, I think the, the, they might want to revisit 3 overseas players instead of 4 for next year would be my preference. And I think that we'd see far better balanced teams, and I think we'd see the, um, the domestic players growing and getting better as a result of that too.

I think a really good example is somebody like Kharis Pavli, Kharis Pavli, who, who's had such a good domestic season, you know, leading run scorer, batting up at the top of the order. manipulating the field with her sweeps, reverse sweeps, paddles, slaps it down the ground. She's barely done anything this 100. You know, like Finny says, she's batting 8 and not really contributed all that much. And it's really disappointing for me as an England fan and an England cricketer to see our girls doing less and less throughout this tournament. But then do we have to say this tournament is for entertainment? It's been sold off, it's now privately owned, it's meant to be a spectacle. Rather than here. Maybe it's not here to develop England players anymore. Maybe it's here for entertainment and to sell tickets and to, you know, get some revenue.

Crowd numbers have been down a little bit. They talked about it being basically flat in terms of last year to this. It's, I think, the 3rd highest attended Hundred or edition of the Hundred. And he used the word fandom a lot in that interview, Stephen, and, you know, growing brands and one thing or another. Do you sense this year that a little bit of the identity that had been built up in the first 5 years has been lost?

Well, yeah, I've been to Southern Brave games and they're still shouting Green Army down there and they don't, they don't wear green anymore. So yeah, look, this takes time, doesn't it, to expect people to, to come in and start shouting the names of the new teams and wearing the kits, albeit they have been given out at a few of the grounds, haven't they, to to turn it into what looks like a nice atmosphere when the grounds are full. But this stuff takes time. Developing those affinities with teams and players takes time. With the changing of the names, the changing of the ownership, and then a big auction as well to jumble the players even more, I think has left people searching for that identity more. And only time will bring that back.

Well, in a moment, we'll be hearing from the ECB's chief executive, Richard Gould, who's been sharing his thoughts on this year's competition, but also some wider England issues.

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The TMS Podcast on BBC Sounds. Let's hear then from Richard Gould, who I spoke to at the Oval ahead of the eliminator matches. The ECB's chief executive was in a very smiley mood, fresh from his bike ride down to the ground. And I began by asking how he reviewed this year's Hundred.

I've really enjoyed it. I've got around seeing all the grounds. I've seen a lot of differences clearly with some of the team names, the branding changes. My, my initial reflections would be I think the quality of the cricket is really high and higher than we've seen before. A number of overseas players that we've got, both men and women. And also the engagement with supporters, I think, is really strong. Manchester on Tuesday night, you know, the game finished half 9. Loads of people still in around Manchester city centre. I saw more cricket shirts than football shirts. And I think in a city like Manchester, that's a good sign. It will take time because there are new brands. And but you can— I think there's a lot more attachment that you can now get with the teams because they are owned by the clubs. And they're owned by the investors rather than owned all by the ECB.

What's gone well? What's gone badly?

We would like to see even more people coming to the grounds. You know, the attendances were more or less flat. It was a slower, slower start built towards the end of— and there have been some breakthroughs on that as well. You know, Cardiff on a Monday night, sort of 9,500, 10,000 people, nearly all of them in there for the women's game as well. So attendances, we would like to—

we would—

we will— we will continue to want to drive them forward. The standard of cricket, I think, has been exceptional. And whereas in the past, I think there was— there was the IPL and then a hunting pack, I think we've separated ourselves away away from the hunting pack because we've been able to attract and retain the very best players.

Why have crowd numbers been down? Because you must have had those. I know it may be marginal, but this is a year where the weather's been perfect.

Well, weather's perfect. The economy is not that great. Economy's perfect. But also it's been very hot. You know, we've had quite a lot of junior games, for example, cancelled. In the recreational game where it's just been too hot. But it's, you know, it's kind of flattish. And when you look at the, the changes that we've, we've seen in terms of branding and team names, there was always going to be a bit of a reset moment. But I've got absolute confidence that, that we're in a really strong position.

How does the overseas investment align more broadly with the goals of English cricket?

What it allows us to do is to deliver a truly world-class global tournament that therefore allows us to keep all of the best English players playing in England, both men and women, throughout an English summer, and also allows us to attract the best overseas players into England during that. Be in no doubt, there is a competitive market in franchise cricket globally. And if you do not own a window where you can attract and retain the very best players in the world, you will, you will, you will suffer the consequences in the long term. And we always need to make sure that in England we have got the best players playing in our competitions, whether it's for England or whether it's from MyLondon or Welsh Fire. Or Somerset or Surrey.

What about the influence from India and I suppose the Indian market? How important is that to the success and the future of English cricket?

The Indian market is marginal to us, in truth. When you look at— when at the moment, when you look at relative broadcast values from overseas, You know, this is a— this is a— this is a UK competition largely for a UK fan base and a UK market. And that will always be our strength and that will always be our focus. I would love to be like the Premier League where 50% of your revenue comes in from overseas, but we're at the start of that journey. So we need to make sure that we focus on what's right for our market.

Has the transition to the private investment worked on all levels in terms of marketing, ticket sales, getting that message out there, or is there work to be done?

There's definitely work to be done, as you would expect one year in. Doesn't matter whether you're a football club, cricket club, or a rugby club. New ownership takes over, takes a little bit of time to understand strengths, weaknesses, and opportunities. But I have been so excited by some of the energy and different thinking that we've seen, you know, 65,000 free shirts being given away by Manchester Supergiants. Some of the, some of the stuff that's been happening at London Spirit, Mumbai Indians, Southern Brave, all of them have got, have got areas of absolute strength. And I know that during this season they will have been watching their competitors and understanding where they can learn and adapt. And we help with that as well. You know, that's part of our job as ECB is to make sure that we can, we can help guide. But the energy that we're getting from 8 separately owned clubs as opposed to 8 teams that were centrally coordinated is different. And it's very exciting.

What could have been done better?

I'm not going to pick on any individual elements because I don't want to— I don't want to put any of our clubs at a disadvantage or feel as if they're being picked on. So I certainly wouldn't do that publicly. Privately, we will always have discussions with owners and clubs to try and guide them along. But this is not a one-way street. You look at the investor group that we've got coming into We've got IPL, we've got Premier League, we've got representatives of some of the biggest digital global companies in the world. We have to be on receive too. And there's a lot of great ideas, great, great thought and great creativity coming our way. And that will not just be restricted to the Hundred. You will see that going throughout our pyramid, through the county game and into the recreational game as well, because whenever you've got investors coming in, it's that shared information New energy coming in, and we're going to make sure that we harness that for the whole game.

Speaking of the different formats, England's Test side start playing three days later. How comfortable are you with the tightness of that period?

The tightness is a difficult one to manage, but manage it we must. It doesn't matter if we're moving from an IPL season into an English summer, or we're moving from a hundred season into into a Test series. And next year we'll go straight from an Ashes Test series into 100. The key is that we need to make sure that we provide the players with the best possible platform so that they can adapt from one format to another. That becomes increasingly difficult, but as of today we've got a couple of the players that hopefully will start at Headingley next week playing at Beckenham just down the road. I'm going to go and catch them. Within a bit, so it's not perfect. We will make it as good as we can be. But because for cricket we need to maintain the momentum, we cannot go. We cannot go. The English season, summer season is so short. We cannot have a period where we just go dark for a couple of weeks like a theatre. We have to keep the momentum going.

And speaking of the Test side and captaincy, Joe Rooney back as captain. Ben Stokes thought that. maybe Harry Brook was the more obvious choice. Why didn't he get that job?

That is, that's a decision that is made by the coach alongside national selector, alongside the MD Rob Kee. And clearly for us, what we wanted to do was to make sure that we had the Test coach secured. And I'm delighted that Steven Fleming is going to come. I think he'll be— he'll make a great contribution. To English cricket over the next 3, 4 years. So it's a decision that is made by those people.

And so why— what about Stephen Fleming and why we've got this, this delay and this gap?

Stephen has only recently finished a contract with the IPL, but it's as we were talking about, these franchises all around the world now. So although the IPL finished some time ago, the, the The MLC in America didn't. So he's been with the franchise out there. We want to make sure that when he arrives on our shores, he is well rested and good to go. And I'd much rather have that position. We know that these roles in England can be testing. And so we want to make sure that when they arrive, they are well rested and good to go.

Will Rob Keeley still be in post if England don't win that series against Pakistan?

Yeah, of course. You know, we are, you know, we're not, we're not, we're not going to be making decisions based on short-term series in this regard. You know, we've, we've made significant changes with the England setup over the last 8 weeks. We're looking forward to a period of stability and we know that we're going to have a very exciting, competitive series against Why was a curfew in place for 7 months?

Why was it necessary in June but isn't necessary now?

Sometimes short-term control measures or additional control measures are required for a short term, for a period. Um, uh, Joe, uh, Stephen, uh, they have reflected on what they want going forward and, uh, what changes they want to make, and, uh, and we'll be very pleased to support them.

I suppose the obvious thing to say is, well, it demonstrably didn't work, I suppose, having that curfew if it was broken. So it may have been necessary but then wasn't effective.

Um, I, I'm not going to go on further comment on this. We've, uh, it's, it's, it's had enough headlines.

Um, what about Andrew Flintoff? Do you know why he, he left his role?

Uh, yeah, uh, Andrew Can I just say, did Andrew Freddie? I'm never quite sure which guys he's in. I think he's done an amazing job in his period with England. Certainly every time I have visited the Lions in a Lions camp, you can see the high regard that the players hold Freddie and also the fervour, you know, the I don't know the passion that he has got to try and make the best of these players, whether it's form, fitness, technique. He's been great, but he's a busy man. He's got a lot of other opportunities. I think we are very lucky to have had him with the Lions for the period that we've had.

Do you think one day we could see him back in English cricket? Would you like to see him?

I would hope so. You know, when we look at English coaches and opportunities for English players to move into the coaching ranks, that's something that we have to promote. If you look at it over a 10 to 20 year horizon, not enough of the best English players have gone into coaching. And that's perhaps in the past because the coaching roles have not been sufficiently remunerated, not the right profile, not the right opportunities. Many of our best players have gone into the media over the last 20, 30, 40 years. I think with, with the introduction of franchise cricket, more opportunities More high-profile opportunities with international teams. You're now starting to see that reversed, and I'm delighted because we want all of our best, best, best players, both men and women, then going into the coaching ranks and helping to take the game forward.

Did it surprise you when he left?

No, it didn't surprise me. No, it didn't surprise me because I know how many other opportunities that come across his way.

And just finally, stability is something we all seek in life. Do you sometimes sit down and think, just give me three months where it's not chaos?

It's it's it's it's never chaos. It's always interesting. And I think when we are, we're very fortunate to be in a sport where media and supporters are so. So passionate about the sport, you know, that brings with it at times elements of great scrutiny. That scrutiny is welcome because it just keeps everybody driving forward. You know, there is nobody sitting there with any, you know, everybody's got a huge passion to drive the game forward. And, you know, whether it's supporter sentiment, whether it's media sentiment, I really enjoy getting the feedback. It's not always enjoyable at the time. It is always helpful and useful in terms of driving driving the sport forward.

Still enjoying it?

Yes.

The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds. Well, Alex and Stephen still alongside me. I feel we've covered quite a lot of hundred ground. Let's get on to some of the the other issues. at play. I'm really interested to know what he thought about the curfew stuff and the words that he said. Richard Gould were, you know, at the time it was necessary and sometimes you do need to put things in place. It is now no longer necessary and it all feels like a bit of a mess.

Do you know what? I fully agree with Joe Root. They're grown adults. They can make their own decisions and it's to be policed in-house and to be policed by the dressing room. And if somebody goes out drinking on day 3 of a Test match, it's on them. It's on them, you know. I don't think, I don't think grown adults necessarily need a curfew.

Finny, do you think we can draw a line under all of that now?

Well, I think when Stephen Fleming comes in in December for that Test series, I think that we can draw a line and start moving on. But I suppose it lingers on as a result of there being interim coaches and, and that side of things. But I I think it's a good move from Joe Root to stamp his authority on the team. I think as a new captain, you want to come in with a strong message. One of those will be about players taking their own responsibility for their behavior, both off and on the pitch. So, so yeah, good strong start from Joe Root.

Sometimes short-term control measures required for a period of time was the description from Richard Gould about, about curfews. Also was, was pretty bullish about The fact that he wasn't responsible for the decision to pick Joe Root as captain, that was very much, uh, the, the sort of team area. And though Ben Stokes has rather put the cat amongst the pigeons in saying he thought that Harry Brook was the, was the obvious choice, but understandably Richard Gould doesn't necessarily want to get involved in that.

Chief executive has no right to be making decisions on who is the captain of the men's international team, of any of the international teams. The person who is in charge of that, the director of cricket, is responsible for those decisions. I think if the chief executive starts stepping in and wanting to influence those decisions, I think it then muddies the lines of communication and responsibility and accountability.

But he was very clear about saying there's no danger of Rob Key's position even if England were to lose against Pakistan.

Well, I mean, look, the decisions that have been made now are are going to kick back in. We're just in this weird holding pattern now, aren't we, until December. So, uh, the decision has been made to make Steven Fleming the head coach, which— I don't know him particularly well, but everything you hear from people is that he is a very good choice for that job, and England are lucky to be able to, to have him doing it. That decision has been made. I, I don't think what happens in this Pakistan series, um, now should have people's jobs on the line. I just think it would help everyone for England to win this series so we can move towards December when Fleming comes into place and people can just move on and try and win games and win the Ashes next summer. That'd be great.

I like what Richard Gould said when I said, are you longing for a period where it's not just chaos? And he says, it's never chaos, it's always interesting.

Interesting it is. It is interesting to follow from afar as well, isn't it?

Yeah.

I mean, do England need a bit of stability?

Yes. Um, are they gonna get it? I don't really know. We're in a bit of a limbo phase, aren't we, where we are just waiting for Steven Fleming and Joe Root to take over properly and for them to take over all together. I'm hoping that we can just get through a Test series and then not be headlines somewhere.

And well, there's no curfew to break now, so yeah, we'll be all right on that front.

We should, we should, we should be able to get through this 3-match series without something happening off the field.

We'll see. We'll revisit this conversation in due course. Alex, Stephen, thank you very much for joining me. That series between England and Pakistan gets underway, uh, not long now. August 19th, we'll be live from Headingley on the outfield at 10:25 on BBC Sounds and 5 Sports Extra. You can follow all the action as well, uh, via the BBC Sport website and app and our live text commentary service. And podcasts are out as well. Subscribe on BBC Sounds, or wherever you get your podcasts. And don't forget TV highlights today at the Test as well. So we've got you covered for England against Pakistan. The summer keeps on rolling on. Future of the Hundred, well, we'll wait and see what happens with that. Future of English cricket, goodness knows. We, uh, we keep enjoying the roller coaster ride of it all. Thanks, Steven. Thanks, Alex. And thanks for listening. We'll speak to you soon. The TMS Podcast on BBC Sounds.

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