BBC TMS podcast episode (host Mark Chapman) discussing Australia’s squad, selection dilemmas and England’s challenge ahead of the forthcoming Ashes. Guests (Simon Katich, Melinda Farrell, Stephen Finn) debate opener options (Jake Weatherald, Manus Labuschagne, Bo Webster), Cameron Green’s role, Pat Cummins’ fitness, Nathan Lyon’s place, and the balance/age of the Australian side.
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Hello. Welcome to the TMS pod. Less than two weeks to go until the Ashes gets underway in Perth. Comprehensive coverage across the BBC, full commentary on tms, digital clips available to watch during play, and then a full highlights program on iplayer as well. We'll have a date daily TMS podcast Tail Enders will do a review of everything at the end of every test. You'll be able to watch that as well. So we are ready to go out in I'm assuming both of them are in Australia. Simon Katic and Melinda Farrell. Are you both you both out there?
Certainly am, Mark.
Right. What time is it?
Yes, I am. I'm in my hometown of Orange, getting ready to fly west in about a week's time.
What time is it where you are, Melinda?
It's just past 8 o', clock, so I've managed to drag myself out of bed and drag a brush through my hair. That's about it.
Simon, time where you are?
Oh, it's just after 8 o' clock here in Sydney, but I wish I got out of bed that late. The cat got us at about 5:30.
Stephen Finn with us as well, former England fast bowler. Are you excited, Stephen? You're going out soon?
I'm out a week today, yes, so I'm starting to adjust my body clock and staying up through the night just to get ready for it. It's exciting time in the calendar to build up to an Ashes series and it's certainly reaching fever pitch.
Are you traveling in positive frame of mind?
I am, I think, yeah.
I am.
I think Australia are still favourites for the Ashes. I think we have to be realistic about that. But I'm quite confident in saying that this is England's best opportunity to win the Ashes away from home in 15 years.
Would you agree with him on that, Simon?
Yeah, I don't disagree at all. I think. I guess the big question here in Australia at the moment is just how England's preparation is going to be leading into a big series because they're not really playing a huge amount of shield. Well, not shield cricket, but tour matches in the lead up. So that's probably the big unknown at the moment. They're practicing at Lilac Hill park, my old home club in Perth at the moment. And I saw last night in the news that Joe Roots only just stepped foot in Perth, so they're obviously pretty relaxed. It's a different regime to probably one they've had in the past. And obviously with Brendan McCullum and Ben Stokes in charge, there's no doubt that with that leadership they will throw some things at Australia that Australia got to be prepared for, particularly with the bowling attack. They've got. They've got some serious weapons there. Not only the older brigade of guys like Mark Wood and Stokes, but also these young quicks that are coming through in Joffre Archer, Brighton Cass, Gus Atkinson and Josh Tongue. So they've got some firepower there if they can get it right in our conditions. The big question is, can they play basball in Australian conditions where the ball's going to nip around early on and going to have some pace and bounce?
Well, I'll come on to that in just a moment and I'll come on to Joe Root arriving as well. But do you think, Mel, is there any kind of sort of fragility in the usual Australian confidence?
Oh, I don't know if I'd go far as to say fragility, but it's been perhaps a more uncertain time just because of the selections. The irony is that there was only really that open a position as far as players in the squad that you think that was really kind of the one that was troubling. But there are just the knock on effects and around it. And that probably goes to the fact that the Australian selectors have chopped and changed so much since David Warner retires and they've tried to shoehorn players who don't normally open into the opening position. They've tried a young, very green opener in Sam Constance who's now out of the side. And so now they've gone Back to probably the most conservative approach in. Okay, let's pick a bloke in Jake Wetherald, who was the top run scorer in the Sheffield Shield last year. He's 31, he knows his game a bit and he's in good form. But the knock on effect has a lot of eyes at the moment on that. On that Sheffield Shield round. That's on at the moment, particularly today, because Western Australia will be playing and that means we'll be finding out just how robust Cameron Green's bowling is. That's a big, big thing.
So we're going to pick all of that apart. Very sure. And we'll start with Jake Weatherall in just a moment. The sledging. First of all, Mel, I mean, none of it. We're all. We're used to it. But I've got two front pages from the West Australian here. I've got bazball spelt B a W L, which is having to go at Ben Stokes for complaining about stuff. Then another front page with Joe Root arriving. Maybe this is where Simon saw it saying, average Joe, hero in the homeland, pretender in Australia. VB Victoria Bitter are doing an ad campaign on refreshing yourself on the laws of cricket and whether you stand in your crease or not in reference to Johnny Bearsow's run out last time round. What's wrong with you lot? Why can't you be nice to us?
I thought you'd get that British Aussie humor.
Mark Brutus. Just horrible, son.
That's the bit where I have to remind you that I'm a dual citizen. I've got a British passport and an Australian passport, just so you know.
All right.
Have you got that Joe Root piece in front of you?
I've got the front page. I haven't got the piece. I've just got him.
Read the first sentence of the actual story.
Okay, well, right, I will find the. Have you got the first sentence? Cause I've only got the front page. I haven't got the article.
Yeah, no, it's on the front page. The bit underneath.
Dud Root down under, Hero in the homeland, pretender in Australia. The stats that haunt England's greatest batter ahead of Asher's showdown.
All I'll say is the first two words of that. I'm not going to explain what it means in the vernacular on the BBC of all places, but it's a. About the biggest insult to. To. To a gentleman's manhood that could possibly be.
Oh, my God. You've just got. You've just made me read it out.
That'S, that's one for me. That's one for my Australian passport. It's on the front page.
Oh my word. Well, it's been nice working with you all. And there we are. It's.
It's in a very vernacular sort of joking way. Obviously it's huge. Well, I was comparing it to. Actually I took photos of the front pages of some of the newspapers last year when India were on their way out and they, they went so far, the papers in trying to, to, to kind of appease or get the Indian audience in Australia on side that they had whole pages that were in Hindi and all of these stories about Kohli the King and Jaiswal the Prince. So it feed to them, it lauded them so much and that's kind of the thing that's really struck me now is that they don't care about drawing England fans in Australia. That the tactic is go and go as hard as possible.
And Simon, look, it's nothing new and it is a bit of fun. I do obviously get that. How did it affect when you were playing, how much were you aware of what the media were doing towards the England players? And at any point did you think this might backfire in firing them up?
Look. Yeah, good question. I mean you are aware of stuff that's going on in the background. I mean it's different now. We probably didn't have particularly back in 2001 when I first toured and then probably again in 2005, social media wasn't as big as it obviously is now. Probably wasn't even around. I'm not aware because I'm not on social media. So the history of, or my knowledge of history of social media isn't great. But I know that, you know, back then, you know, the coverage of the game, it certainly was obviously very good in England and particularly that 05 Ashes. You're probably not going to get a bigger series than that in terms of how it played out. We were certainly aware of criticism that was coming our way and I think this time around there is some criticism of the Australian team. I think your press has called it Dad's army, which in a way it is an older team. But I think this Australian team is confident in the fact that they do have that level of experience, particularly in these conditions. I think they're comfortable with that tag. I think we saw Josh Hazelwood come out the other night and, and say he wasn't worried about the fact that they're, you know, that it is an aging attack. His perspective is experienced attack and they are confident in these conditions. I mean, between Lyon, Stark, Cummins, when he's fit, hopefully for Brisbane, and then Hazelwood. And even if you add Scotty Boland, whilst he's only played, you know, probably over just over a dozen tests, he is 36 years of age and vastly experienced in these conditions. So Australia see it a different way. Look, the press are obviously going to play mind games and they're going to go hard early on. And maybe part of that is because there is an element of concern around this England team because of the way they go about it. They are an attacking team and if they do get on a roll with battle ball, they could inflict some damage because this Australian team does have some players that they've heavily relied on with the bat. And I can see this England team springing a few surprises with their fast bowling unit, particularly in the first couple of tests. I think guys like Khawaja, Smith and Head better be ready because I think this England attack's going to come really hard for them.
Did you and the 5 live production sport team don't miss a beat. So I now know exactly what I read out and obviously it's all down to the emphasis, but. And I can sort of. What I said earlier, it means a colloquial Australian slang term for, I'll say a romantic encounter that is disappointing, bad or unfulfilling. Steve. Thanks, Mel. So sorry. No, it's fine. And now I. Now I get it. It's where the. The. Yeah. So, Stephen, back to. Back to. Did you ever pay any. You can't avoid it.
I suppose it is unavoidable because the second you step off the plane, there are cameras in your face. And where. I feel in England, we're respectful of people's privacy when they've been on a plane for 27 hours. As soon as you walk through the arrivals lounge in Perth, there's a news reporter there with a camera in your face telling you you're going to get hammered for the next three months. And that's hammered on the cricket pitch. So it's. Look, it's. It is a challenge and it's like you're playing against the entirety of Australia as opposed to just a squad of 15. But the one thing I would say is that in 2010-11, when we won, we pushed that tide back the other way and they turned on themselves. And that's the great challenge for this England team with the way that they play. I think they can get on the front foot against Australia. I think they can Expose a couple of little cracks in that team and then the tide can go the other way. And that is the great challenge for England going to Australia.
Okay, let's come on to this Australian team then this Australian squad. And this is in the main what we're going to focus on for the next 40 minutes or so. And let's start with Jake Weatherold who is uncapped but widely tipped to open the batting. So just some, just some facts and figures on him. Top run scoring last season's Sheffield Shield had a strong start this season. He was out for 23 in the Sheffield Shield yesterday. He's 31, so he's not some young prospect. And Chris Rogers, Simon has said I think it's the hardest role in cricket. I, I wouldn't mind seeing them go with the proven opener as such. What I'm Interested is at 31 and despite being uncapped, is he proven?
Well, look, you're always unproven at test level until you get out there and get amongst it. So I think, look, there's an element of that. I still think they're weighing out where the Manus Labochain opens as well. And a lot's going to come down to probably this last round of Shield games, particularly from Cameron Green and Bo Webster's perspective because the problem by Webster's got at the moment, he's had an injury interrupted start the season. I think he's got 30 runs in three hits. So he's not in probably the best of form. He's very good catcher, he's handy with the ball and he got a late wicket yesterday. He might have knocked Travis head over actually. And then from Cameron Green's perspective, he's only averaged 20. I think he's got 84 runs in four hits so far for WA and he's only bowled four overs. So there's still that uncertainty around that role. And part of that might be that the selectors think both of them play and Cameron Green stays at number three because the problem is if they're being consistent. Cameron Green actually had a pretty good finish to the West Indies tour in the second and third tests in a low scoring tour. So there's that element of it. The Australian selectors have generally been pretty consistent the last few years. It is a settled team. So Wetherald probably needed to do something this week to stand out and say, right, I'm going to open, but he hasn't quite done that yet. He's still got a chance in the second innings that might well happen. But yeah, in terms of being proven, you're never proven at test level until you get out there and face the music and show that you're good enough.
Kat, you were an opening batter, surely? It's a specialist position, isn't it? It's a very unique set of skills to be able to walk out there at the very top of the order.
Yeah, it's a good question for you. I mean, technically I wasn't in a way, because I started my Test career at six, struggled in that role, got dropped after the 05 Ashes, and then when I came back in in 2008, I'd made a lot of runs batting at sort of three or four for New South Wales. But then the opportunity came at the top of the order and ironically, the best position in test cricket for me was opening. I think I averaged over 50 in those three years from 2008 to 2010. After you knocked me over at the Gabber in that series, I didn't want.
To remind you, Cap, but now we're here.
I remember it well, mate. Cost me big runs. But anyway, in terms of that role, you're right, it is a specialist role. But for me it was more a case of a change in mindset rather than sitting around waiting to bat. And even if that's at 3 or 4, it was this change in mindset. Right, toss goes up. If we're winning the toss and batting, I've got to be prepared to get out there and get right amongst it. And fortunately, having that experience of batting at 3 and 4 in Shield cricket and first class cricket in England had prepared me for facing a new ball, because sometimes you're out there in the first over. And so really it was just the change in mindset. Thankfully, it helped me and other guys have done that. I know Justin Langer did it. He moved up from three to opening. I think David Boone did it prior to that. So it can be done. It's just that, that change in mindset. So Manus, that's the question for him at the moment, if they decide to go with the tour rounders and stick with Green at 3 and Webster at 6. Manus has got to get his head around getting right out there from the start. I mean, he's batted at three most of his Test career, if not all of it, apart from recently when he did open. So, look, I think he can do it. It's just what the selectors want to do with the balance of the team.
Well, and therefore, Mel, what Simon suggests is the opening partnership could be affected by the Balance of the team. Normally when you look at a balance of a team, I suppose, and trying to fit people is, you know, you're going to go an all pace attack, are you going to drop your spin, whatever it may be. But actually they're looking at the balance right at the top which will affect whether they can get Webster and Green into the, into the same side.
And that's why I talk about that uncertainty. Watching the Shield games yesterday, I was watching Tasmania at one point thinking, gosh, there's Jake Weatherald and Bo Webster and they're, they're both in a position where their fortunes or their opportunities might be affected by Cameron Green's ability to bowl, which kind of seems a bit crazy, doesn't it? Australia have largely been, as Simon says, quite a settled side in the past several years. But the biggest challenges or the biggest challenge that the selectors under George Bailey have had to face has been the retirement of David Warner. And I think there's some fair criticism to be made about the way that they have actually handled the departure of David Warner. And I feel sorry for a couple of the players who've come and gone along the way like Nathan McSweeney and Sam Constance. It's just going to be interesting. Look, at least Jake Weatherald, he's been through a lot. He's spoken about issues with mental health and OCD where he's had to go away from the game and come back and kind of been a lot better for it. So he's a player who I think is more settled within himself than when you look at a couple of the younger players that they've brought in. He's someone who, he likes to talk about the different gears he goes through. And I noticed yesterday you mentioned the 23. I think it came off about, I don't know, 36 runs, five fours in that 23. So he likes to go on the attack when he can and be aggressive. But he can also play out a number of maidens as well. Of course, with Usman Khawaja batting the way he does, Australia will be hopeful that there'll be more of those overs where he does take on the bowlers. But I'm sure England will have been watching as well and noted how he got out too.
If he does, if he does play, he could be Khawaja's sixth different opening partner. Simon, since David Warner retired last year and Mel was saying there, you know, you can aim some criticism at them for how they've managed the Warner succession and really should that plan should have Been in place a couple of years before Warner retired, shouldn't it? I mean, it wasn't a shock for retirement. It's not like he was 28 and deciding to call it a day. Where was the succession planning?
Yeah, it's a good question because I think one, it highlights how tough the role is and the step up from shield cricket to international cricket, particularly against quality opposition. We saw that last year. You know, you go, young Nathan McSweeney goes from batting at three for South Australia, then to open the batting in a massive series against India against the best bowler in the world, Jasper Bulmer, in, you know, tricky conditions in those first few tests. And he, he was up against it from the selectors. Well, in defense of the selectors, to be fair to them, the reason there's been, I guess no one nailed the spot is because no one at the level below has dominated shield cricket or first class cricket in England or wherever to say this spot's mine now. And when you look at David Warner's career and the way it played out the last two years of his career, you know he was nowhere near his best. But they held on because they knew the guys below and whether it was a Bancroft, whether it was Harris, whether it was any of these young guys that they'd now been looking at in the last sort of 12 months, they realized that David Warner still as a fading giant was better than some of these younger guys. And it's proven to be the case. So you can't blame the selectors in a way because the guys below haven't dominated steel cricket yet. And that's, you know, Sam Constance is a great example. Got picked last year. Yeah, scored a couple of hundreds against South Australia early in the season at Cricket Central. But then since then's hardly made a run, averaging 20 this year and he's still only a 20 year old kid, so he doesn't really know his game yet. And this is the challenge that Australian cricket's got and probably world cricket in a way. You've got young guys learning the game in white ball cricket or having these big gaps with the BBL or comps around the world and then they go into a test series not quite with the experience under their belt of having played a full season in England or having played, you know, multiple shield seasons here in Australia and they're getting found out against some of the world's best bowlers. So to be fair to the selectors, I'm not sure there's much else they could have done because there's A number of guys that haven't grabbed their opportunity and maybe that's, you know, something they have to look at with within the system is making sure that the guys at the level below that gap is bridged between, you know, shield cricket, international cricket, and they're starting to play more a stuff now. You know, Australia played some A series recently. I think they're planning to play more. They've got to bridge that gap, otherwise they're going to find it hard to find the next, you know, Khawaja, Smith or Warner.
Well, and that leads us on to the age makeup of this squad. I'll just give you some ages here of some of the players. I mean, Manuslavshane is 31, Steve Smith is 36, Travis Head is 31, Alex Carey 34, the oldest in the squad. And this is a squad that has got only one man under the age of 30 in it. The oldest is Usman Khawaja at 38.
People like to think that, oh yeah, we've been picking the same. The reason we're picking the same team is because we've been well known one team for the last three years, you know, so it's one of those things. Yeah, the team's a bit older, but so was the great team Australia in 2000, early 2000s. They were all of the older generation too. And obviously the transition will always happen at some point when it'll happen, I don't know in terms of when the players stop playing, but it's going to happen at some point.
There are several factors here, aren't they? There is the wery young players learning their craft at the moment and then there is. Why would you change a successful team?
Yeah, look, absolutely. I think a bit much is being made of the ages, to be honest. I think that's more of a problem for Australia in another sort of year. Two, three, four down the line. And it's something that they have to be prepared for. I'm not sure that that's such a big deal this summer. I mean, just watching yesterday, Mitchell Stark and Josh Hazard look as fit as they have ever done, particularly Hazelwood. And, you know, a lot of the batters, if their eyes haven't gone as sometimes they do sort of towards the end of their 30s, then they've got a lot of experience and that counts for an awful lot. So I think the whole supposed Dad's army things being a little bit overplayed for this series, I think that's a future problem for Australia. But I absolutely do agree with Simon in That you've got a dozen openers or in any position, give or take around the country. And there does have to be sort of a few questions asked about why is there so much trouble picking someone in one of those out of those half a dozen sort of players.
Steve Waugh said before the squad was announced, Stephen, that the selector, George Bailey, didn't have the appetite to make tough calls. To which Bailey replied, well, when people have that view, I'm interested as to who they'd like us to leave out. Is that Nathan Lyon or Mitchell Stark? Just because of their age, which is a fair comeback.
It's a fair comeback but see, they're turning on themselves already.
Exactly. It's great, isn't it?
It's like real England if you ask me. This is absolutely Christmas. No, I would agree that an Ashes series is not the series to succession plan within you pick your best 11 players. If Simon Katic is the best number three in the country, he plays the next test match regardless of his age. It doesn't really matter to me and I think that this is such a monumental series that it's not the time to experiment.
I want to move on to Steve Smith. I'm not going to keep giving everybody's age but I will do here just. He's 36. He will captain the side with Pat Cummins injured for Perth. What difference, Mel, do you think that will make to Smith, if any?
Oh, well, he average is much better batting wise when he captains. We know that and he comes with so much experience as well. He had lots of times. You would see Pat Cummins and Steve Smith talking sometimes arguing quite strongly about fielding positions as well. I mean Simon might be. I'd be interested to hear what he thinks. I actually think Steve Smith is perhaps a little bit more of a gut feel situation. What change am I going to make here? Be prepared to possibly do something a little bit funkier or a bit more aggressive whereas Pat Cummins often seems to be a little bit more right. These are the plans that we've worked out and maybe a bit more likely to stick to those plans. So that's something think you sort of see maybe that will. Will play a role. Steve Smith's currently captaining New South Wales. Genius brings on Nathan Lyon in. I think it was just the 14th over of the match and. And he gets a wicket almost straight away. So I don't think Australia lose a huge amount. Pat Cummins is a massive presence in. In being able to pick up wickets at just any time. And also without him, I think Australia's tale is likely to be lengthened. But as far as captains say, they're different styles, but I don't think you'd walk out thinking, well, you know, they've got a second rate captain in Steve Smith, far from it. So it's, it's just going to be interesting to see how that plays out. But he's played a huge role in, in that leadership group and, and talking to Pat Cummins anyway. And Pat Cummins will be there as well. So I don't know that we'll see a massive change. Could be wrong, but maybe a little bit more, maybe we might see a few more off the cuff captaincy decisions.
Yeah, he. Look, Steve Smith, you're right, Mel, he's a very instinctive captain and I think we'll see that more with how he uses Nathan Line. I think he knows that he needs to try and get Nathan Line into the game at certain times, particularly against the left handers and he did that yesterday and he's had a fantastic record captaining when Pat Cummins has missed some of the tests in India and recent times and that's not an easy place to captain against the quality of players there. But I think the, the big challenge for Steve Smith is the fact that, and this is why Pat Cummings is so good as captain is that he can bring himself on Pat Cummins when things need to happen. Invariably he's done that in the last five or six years when Australia have been in a tight place, they need a breakthrough. He, because he's so good, comes on, gets a cluster of wickets and then the test is done and dusted. I think we saw that at the MCG a few years ago against Pakistan when they look like they might pull off an improbable victory and he comes on, takes three and the game was over half an hour later. So that's the big loss. But I think from a captaincy perspective, Steve Smith, and I think we heard it was Mikwaja talk about this recently. They've known each other since, you know, childhood cricket. He said he's a lot more relaxed now knowing that he doesn't have to do the job full time. And I think that's a big thing for Australia as well. The big challenge for Steve Smith and I think knowing how Ben Stokes and Brendan McCullum think and, and plan, I think and given the Kiwi sort of connection there, they will have seen what New Zealand did to Steve Smith a few years ago here in Australia so successfully. And I'd be very surprised if that.
Which was what? Which was what?
Well, as soon as Steve Smith came to the crease, there were fielders scattered everywhere. And look, I hate to use the word body line, but that's exactly what it was, really. Neil Wag Wagner executed it and it came hard right from the word go, albeit not the same pace as what England have got up their sleeves. So I'd be very surprised if that doesn't hit Steve Smith and maybe a couple of the other Australian batsmen that are later in their careers in the next couple of weeks.
You're not still bringing up the 1930s, are you? Go, let it go.
Well, it worked, didn't it? That's all you want to do when you come to Australia. You want the plan to work and get away with the Ashes.
There are. There are some really. Some really good quizzes on the BBC Sport website at the moment, around the Ashes. So name every player who's made an ashes century since 2005. You're on that list, Simon. There's also name every player that Andrew Flintoff has got out in the Ashes. You're on that list as well, Simon. On that plenty of times, but on the centuries one, Stephen, I mean, sometimes you can forget just how dominant Steve Smith has been since 2005. He's five test centuries ahead of anybody else on this, you know, 12 test centuries since 2005. Does his form go a long way to dictating where the urn ends up?
I think clearly it's significant and his weight of runs and the way that he doesn't give it up ever is something that makes him a special player. And the quirky places that he hits the ball as well makes him really awkward few to bowl at. And you almost end up chasing your tail within a Test match trying to adapt to what he's doing. But, yeah, I don't think it's hyperbole to say that. He's probably the best Ashes cricketer of the last 20 years, at the very least. And, yeah, he's just got this remarkable insatiable appetite for beating England, which is worrying. So I think his wicket will be crucial and having plans for him will be crucial. I've actually just finished composing a text to Ben Stokes actually saying, Simon Katic said that. Just put all the field back and bump him. But he is going to be critical. And I think on the flip side, Joe Root is going to be absolutely critical for England. So the two number fours could have a significant say in where that earn ends.
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5 live on this Australian batting lineup. What's your top seven? Top eight here Simon well, a lot.
Depends on what happens with Cameron Green being able to bowl. I think, you know, as I mentioned earlier, I think from a consistency perspective I think the selectors won't want to drop him because his last few tests in the West Indies were very good when a lot of other players struggle to get runs. So I don't think they'll be able to justify that. He's had a slowish start of the season for wa, but I think they'll be hoping that one he can get through some overs this week. He's only bowled four overs for WA so far this summer and they know that he gives them extra firepower because you know he can bow 140k's if they want to go hard at someone upstairs. He's got the capacity to do that and he's good enough to take top order wickets. So he's a dangerous bowler with his height and particularly in Perth and Brisbane who have a big role to play and that's not to say that Bo Webster can't play a role with the ball as well, but I just think it's going to come down to, you know, one of those two or both of those two and then that'll determine what happens with the opener and you know, whether it will debut. If they don't think both should be in the same team, but if they feel that Green can't bowl much then maybe that might save Webster and that's where this whole dynamic of the week is is so uncertain because Manuslavshane is probably still sitting there thinking he knows he's in good form, he's making plenty of runs at 3, he probably wants to bat at 3, but he might end up opening in an Ashes series purely because of what happens with Cameron's Cameron Green's bowling and potentially what happens in the Shield games this week. So I can see a scenario where both are in play right up until the end of this Shield round and then I guess number eight for Pat Cummins. I think it'll just throw more responsibility on Mitchell Stark probably Coming back up to that number eight role, Lyon and Hazelwood and then Boland slots in.
Yeah, I, I think this is the turbulence that England need in the build up to an Ashes series and actually it's the first time since 2010-11 that Australia haven't been sure, but especially of the makeup and the composition of their lineup. If I was an Australian selector and I've thought about this a fair bit.
Clearly what, becoming an Australian selector, sabotage.
From the inside chapters. It's. It's extreme lengths, but I'll do anything to get that back. But I think I would. I would have Webster and Kaja. I'd have Labashane 3, Smith 4, Head 5, Cameron Green 6 and Alex Carey 7. I think Cameron Green is far more effective batting at 6. He's clearly an excellent player, but I do think the way that he dominates bowling at number six when bowlers are a bit tired, it's a really important thing for a team to have. And Australia have always had that dominant player at numbers six and seven that can take the game away. So that's where I'd go.
Sorry, your. Your opening partnership was who? Sorry?
Weatherald.
Right, Weatherald. Sorry, I thought I didn't know what you.
Web stuff. Yeah, yeah, that was a slip of the tongue. Apologies. So I wouldn't be very good in a selection meeting.
You're. You're. Oh, God, I've got the wrong name. Sorry about that. I have to go back. Right. So. So. So Wetherald, Kawada, labashane, Smith, Head Green.
Green. Cary.
Cary. Okay. Bearing in mind we've been doing these kind of selection shows for a little while. I've had some people put cam green at 3, I've had some people not put Nathan Lyon in at all for the first test. And that then means that they can play Green at six and Webster at eight, for example, with Kerry seven or whichever way round. I mean, I had Vaughanie three weeks ago adamant that they start with. That they open with Mitch Marsh. So. Right, so that's gone for the time being. But how would, how would you have your. So what would your seven be then?
Well, what I think it will do is, as Simon said, really depend on the fitness. Cameron Green's only bowled, I think 4 overs total so far. The fact that he and Bo Webster are both kind of coming back from injury, he's had. There's a. The setback after coming back from major back surgery. Interestingly, I actually had a really long chat, an interview with Cam Green when he was in Bristol with Gloucestershire over the English summer. And he sees himself as a number three or a number four who can bowl some handy overs. That's how he sees his career going and that's what he believes he would be best used at. So I thought that was really interesting because. Because that's what he thinks. Obviously, he doesn't call the shots. I can't see Australia dropping Cam Green at all unless he's. Unless he's not fit. Really not fit. Because they've sort of been trying to build this team in a way, this idea that they can kind of build around him as the youngest player in the squad who's had a fair run of Test cricket now, and with all the different abilities that he brings, this. This is a big series, I think, for Cam Green, if he does play and if he does bat at number three, because he's not really dominated a series since he came in. He's had times when he's been stronger with the bat, times when he's been stronger with the ball, made contributions all around, but you don't sort of look at any series and go, oh, that's been Cam Green series. So I think this is a big one for him because there's no bigger way to actually cement your place and say, you know, I am the player that they're going to kind of workaround for the next 10 years as they start to bring new players in. But, yeah, I think that he will push to stay, and their preference will probably be for him in some ways to stay at 3. He actually did do really well in the Caribbean. It was devilish conditions for batters there, and he coped better than just about anyone on the most difficult decks. This. This. Now, coming into this, although he doesn't come off the back of a whole heap of runs internationally, you would think he would take some. Some confidence from that once he can get over these little niggles.
So would you have him at three, then?
Me, personally? No.
Right.
Having said all that.
Right.
No, I agree. I think there's time for him to eventually play, maybe not at 3, but at 4. I think that there's still time in that for his career. Why pick Weatherall to as a specialist opener and not playing? They've tried shoehorning players in, even Steve Smith trying to shoehorn him into that opening position. And if it fails, then you're sort of going back to the well again and chopping and changing. Anyone can fail, of course, coming in, but the form that Marness Labashane is in, the fact that they can almost as an excuse, use that as an excuse to drop Cameron Green to six without damaging, you know, any, any, any egos or whatever. That's the way that I think I would go.
How much, Stephen? If I move it on to the bowlers and we'll do, we'll do the pace attack a little while, but we'll do Nathan Lyon first. How, how wary, given his history and his record against England, will England be of Lyon?
To a certain extent, yes. But I think his returns in the last couple of years because of the nature of the pitches in Australia have been somewhat down on his career. So I think there, there is a percentage of me that believes that neither team might play a spinner in Perth and maybe Brisbane in that pink ball Test. But certainly I think that's something that will come into consideration for both teams when they look at the surface in Perth. But Nathan Line is high quality. He's took 500 test match wickets. You don't do that without being able to adapt, evolve and survive. So I've no doubt that England will have to be wary because if they're not, catch them out.
So if the pitches haven't been as responsive, then Simon, would you still expect him to feature in every Test?
Well, not necessarily, because the fact that he's not no longer the song master as well, I wonder whether that's a little bit of a gauge moving forward. I know there's probably a lot made of it, but you know, the Australians made that bold call in the pink ball Test in the West Indies and it got the right result. You know, Boland played. Who would the opposition rather face? Well, if you ask most of them with a pink ball, they'd prefer to face a right arm off spinner. And that's no disrespect to Nathan Lyon because he is high quality. The tricky one for them with this decision is that his record at Optus Stadium is outstanding. So. And it does turn as the Test goes on. Even though it will crack up and be hard to face quicks on, he still will have a role to play. So they're going to be in a tricky situation with this because his record there stands out. But they have been bold enough to do that and obviously now Alex Carey's the song master. So it does give them that little bit of a chance to say, well, if we want to play both all rounders and then have the batting depth to counter this England attack in what could be, you know, tricky conditions in the first test or two, they've got that option in play as well.
I mean that isn't from someone who has been in that. The changing of the song master is important.
Yeah, look it's. It was a massive decision. I mean he's done it his whole career. Even when he was anointed by Mike Hussey, it was a huge decision because Nathan Lyon was only early in his career. But to have that foresight, to realise that he was going to be the next Australian spinner for a long period of time, particularly when there'd been a spin cycle of probably about 14 or 15 of them since Shane Warne's retirement. It was a huge call and he's done it brilliantly throughout his whole career. But maybe that was a little bit of acknowledgment that the end is getting closer for Nathan Lyon. Although he has said he wants to go to England in 2027 and, and win that earn there which is something that's eluded this Australian team. It's one of the one. Well that and winning in India has probably been the two big things they want to tick off on their checklist. They haven't been able to do it and that's probably what they need to be considered a great Australian team.
So he'd be 39. I know it sounds like I'm completely obsessed with age on this show, but he will be 39 by that, that stage. It's either, it's either Nathan Lyon or pace, is it Mel? I mean there's no point me asking who else make him into contention. From Australian spinning point of view, it's either. It's either him or an all pace attack, is it?
Unless he's injured, yes. That's, that's certainly how, how I would see it. Interestingly enough, he was finding some very nice turn on day one at the SCG yesterday. Might be something for England to remember as the series goes on.
Might be all over by then.
No, I think it's going to come down to a decider in Sydney but. But yeah, I could probably more see for England the temptation in Perth to go for an all outpace attack and you know, and have Joe Root if necessary. Maybe they may even play, you know, Will Jacks and go that way and I could kind of see that. I would understand it. They did that for, for that maybe even the first two tests to be honest. Just I don't think we're going to have a series like we saw in India. In England against India over the summer where every test match goes for five days. Suspect the games might move quite quickly and I also don't buy into, you know, if someone loses the first test and they, they're on the back foot, I, I can see this kind of swinging one way or the other a bit. So that, that kind of leaves a bit of room as well though if you, if you do, if it does the results sort of swing one way and another. That's when you tend to find teams do make changes and so we might well see Lyon go out, go out for, for even Brisbane. If he plays in Perth, then in Brisbane they've got a precedent for that now. But gee, I expect him certainly in the last three tests to play a pretty huge role for Australia. They're, they're pretty aware of the lack of experience experience when it comes to that in, in the England side and, and I think they'll be wanting to maximize it with, with Nathan Lyon. He's also still. By the way, I know you harp on about age, you big ageist Mark, but GE watching him in the field yesterday at the scg. Nathan Lyon is still an absolute gunfielder as well. And we talk about batting and bowling, fielding, I I suspect might play a really big part in the, in the way that these Ashes go.
Just dealing in facts, Mel. Just dealing in facts. That's all I'm. That's all I'm all I'm doing. The Aussie pace attack then Simon, there is no Pat Cummins and that has to be a miss. But in Boland they have a very able deputy. Giving his bowling average in home tests is, is just over 12.6. I mean that's, that's pretty impressive, isn't it, that their hope though would be that Cummins is, is fit for the second test?
Well, that's what it sounds like at the moment. I think initially, you know, there was concerns he might miss the whole summer given how serious the back sounded probably six weeks or so ago. But in recent sort of last week or so, it sounds like he is building up nicely and potentially on track for the Gabba. And we know from previous seasons last year was a great example. He can come into a test series with pretty limited preparation. He came in underdone last year against India. Probably took him a test to get going, but Australia were always playing the long game with the five test summer. He got better and better as that series went on and had a big impact on the, on the Australian victory. But this year obviously Gabatest is second pink ball and that's where they might consider playing four seamens there and potentially that eases him back into the series without having to build up his workload too quickly and he can come in for sort of short impactful spells. So it'll be great from Australia's perspective. But Scott Boland, he's become a legend on these shores. The crowds love him. Whenever he gets the ball in his hand he makes things happen because he's always on and around the top of off stump with a little bit of movement each way. So I won't be surprised if England have a plan to counter that. It's just whether they can counter it for extended periods of time. And look, if that doesn't work then obviously I think the next cab off the rank at the moment is probably. I know in the squad there's Sean Abbott but there's a youngster. Well when I say Youngster he's only 31 mark so he's young in your eyes. Brendan Doggett, he's. He's playing beautifully for South Australia. Did well last year for Australia against India. I think it was up in Cairns or Townsville one of the games. Got 6 for there, got 5 for 60 yesterday down in Tassie bowls decent speed and gets a bit of movement. So he'll be pushing to be a part of this Ash's squad at some stage as well.
Yeah, I really like Brendan Doggett and I think he's certainly in my eyes the next cab off the rank Sean Abbott looked at. He spent most of yesterday looking very frustrated. That might change. He's been around the Australian squad for a long time without sort of getting the opportunity to step up. But Brendan Doggett, he's one of those bowlers I was thinking yesterday it's kind of hard to work out when you're watching him bowl. There's nothing like you don't get stand there and go oh my God. He's like Mitchell Stark booming it around or Hazelwood Express pace along with Pat Cummings. But he's still obviously very quick. But it almost is deceptively innocuous the way he bowls. You sit there and you think God has suddenly got five wickets. It's like the old Joe Root kind of suddenly got to 50. He's just got the ability to I think deceive batters really well with just enough. It doesn't have to be extravagant. Of course he's been basically had some pretty bowler friendly conditions to bowl on in Tasmania but he just kind of quietly goes about it and you're suddenly looking at pretty decent hauls. He got, he got a six for in the first innings last week in the Sheffield Shield against Western Australia and then he got, got five first innings here and you know, getting, getting those first innings wickets, often players up the top of the order is pretty gold. So yeah, watch out for Brendan Doggart. It wouldn't surprise me the form he's in. If the cards fall that way, if there's a couple of injuries or whatever, then we may well see him in the squad.
Out of the whole of the Australian pace attack, Stephen, and as a fast bowler yourself, who is the one you admire the most and why?
Well, Hazelden, Cummings are the two that I, I just watch them, I kind of marvel at their consistency, their longevity, their skill, their ability to challenge both right and left handers, they're relentless. When I've watched Australia in the 2019 Ashes, the away Ashes in 2122 and then the 2023 Ashes, it's just three of the best. Lots of prolonged, just relentless fast bowling from those two. So that although it's good for England that Pat Cummins isn't playing that first test, it's worse for cricket and worse for the series because he is such a marvellous bowler. So if I were to pick one over the other, I think it's Cummins, but they're very close and their bowlers have terrorized England for the last 10 or 12 years. So yeah, good on him.
I know we're not allowed to plug things on the BBC, but for a certain magazine available, along with other good magazines that are available in the uk, I've got a piece in the Cricketer. I actually had a really long chat with Josh Hazelwood last week and it was really interesting. I kind of feel that he sort of slips under the radar a bit because Stark. So, you know, goodness gracious, great balls of fire. He's crushed someone's pinky and then. And Cummins captain Pat with a million watt smile and his ability to kind of break open games. But Josh Hazelwood, right now he's bowling as well as I've ever seen him bowl, I reckon. And he's never bowled badly, I don't think ever in his career. But across formats with the white ball T20 ODIs, he's bowled some of the most incredible spells in that series against, against India. And then he's once told me that playing Red Bull is like slipping on an old comfortable old T shirt. He gets straight in there and he was a bit luckless yesterday, had a catch dropped. But I think particularly with the absence of Pat Cummins, Josh Hazelwood just looks like an absolute machine at the moment. He's a terminator plugging an article in.
The Cricketer getting me to say rude things at the start. Honestly, Mel, you might not, you might not be invited back at this at this rate after that Australian attack sim, who would you least like to face and why?
I've said it for probably the last five or six years, watching him live, it's definitely Pat Cummins, right? Remember playing with him as a youngster for New South Wales and when he burst on the scene, I mean, he bowed probably 150Ks. He was rapid. And then after that, back injuries probably just bow within himself to stay on the park. But the beauty about that is he can bowl within himself at sort of high 100/30s, 140ks an hour and still be sharp up. And I just think it's that nature of he gains speed off the pitch, which I think is the hardest thing for particularly an opening batter to face, is someone just sort of shuffling in the way he does because there's not a big, you know, not a lot of speed to his run up. He just comes in nicely and then it's all at the crease, a bit like a boomer and these sorts of guys. And then it comes off the pace. The pace of the pitch is what does you and gets you caught on the crease. And that's where you see so many batters get caught in two minds. Do I play forward, do I play back? Get pinned on the crease. And then he's, you know, presents a beautiful seam and he's always on and around that sort of off stump, the danger area. So he either gets guys, you know, with the ball that nips back boulder LB or then he can nick him off. So he for me would be the tough one to face.
Steven by the end of this hour, do you still feel as positive as you felt at the start? And I asked that because I've been doing England, Australia in the Rugby League Ashes for the last three weeks. And at the start of that series I thought, God, quite fancy us here. And then Australia came out to warm up at Wembley and they looked massive and they had the famous green and gold shirts and I thought, oh crikey, they look a bit fearsome. And so it proved as they demolished England 3 nil at the end of it. Do you kind of go along a little bit with Ben Gardner in Wisden who wrote rumors of the Aussie demise have been greatly exaggerated? We were told this was their wheatie sizes 2011. There were holes all over it, giving the settled England their best chance to win down under in a generation. But this is a side that knows how to beat England.
I think we've been listening very closely to our wise Australian friends here. They haven't changed my mind though, because there are those little cracks that I think you do need at the beginning of an Ashes series and opportunities to open up. If Australia do back Cam Green at three and Labochain at two, and Labochain doesn't score any runs in the first Test, there's question marks immediately. If Bo Webster and Cam Green, neither of them can bowl as much as people think they might be able to in that first test, or one of them breaks down, that creates a question mark. The Pat Cummins cloud is hanging over the series as well. From an Australian perspective, with not heaps and heaps of depth as they have done before. To be able to come in. I don't feel as though there's a Scott Boland type bowler who can come in and be the next cab off the ranks. So, no, I'm still optimistic, I'm still positive and no matter how many Australians talk to me until I leave this country, I won't change my mind.
Okay, and what about the Australians who talk to you when you arrive in that country?
No, I'm going earplugs in sunglasses on the whole lot.
I'm really looking forward to seeing you, Finny.
Yeah, if you bring your English passport, British passport.
Sam, flight over. Steven, Simon, Mel, thank you very much for an entertaining hour. See you all soon. Plenty more of that on the way, I would imagine, over the next couple of months. It all gets underway in the early morning of Friday 21st November. The TMS team will bring you ball by ball commentary of all five tests on sounds and on sports Extra highlights on the BBC Sport website and app, as well as a full highlights program on the iplayer as well. And tail enders at the end of each test match, which you'll be able to watch as well as listen to.
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