How Australia won the 1997 Women's World Cup

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You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Hello, this is Alison Mitchell with a special episode of the TMS podcast. In this show, we'll be looking back at the 1997 Women's World cup held in India, where an estimated 60,000 packed into Eden Gardens to watch the final that didn't even involve India. The sixth edition of the tournament saw Australia win their fourth title. I'll be joined by player of the match from the final, New Zealand great Debbie Hockley, to reflect on the events and hear what it was like to have a crowd cheering like they were rock stars.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Debbie Hockley, great to be speaking to you. What's your overall sentiment if you look back on that 1997 World Cup, Alison?

It's. Yeah, it's a. It's a thrill to be interviewed by you. I must say, when I look back on the 97 World cup in India, amazing country to tour. I think you have to be quite resilient. I think that it's very different in terms of all of your senses. That's probably the best way that I can describe it. You know, whether it's sight or smell or sound, all of those things, it's just a. It's a plethora of. Of different views every day and challenges, probably fairly, you know, it's a big country, that's what I would say. And when I was, when I was looking at New Zealand's itinerary just before we. We really did manage to zigzag our way, especially down the country before we ended up flying back up to Kolkata. So very fond memories and it's lovely to be able to look back on that, although you have to have a fair bit of patience. It was very hot is what I remember. So lots of different challenges that you would not find in your own country.

So just looking at how the World cup was organized, there was a record number of teams taking part, 11 split across two groups. So you had India, New Zealand, Netherlands, Sri Lanka and West Indies along with England, Australia, South Africa, Ireland, Denmark and Pakistan appearing for the first time. So 11 teams, 32 matches across 25 different venues all over India, which you've alluded to. Some teams had 16 flights in in 24 days. How did you find it?

Yeah, hard yards actually. And you know, some of the games I was again looking at our itinerary. Sometimes there was only maybe two days between matches so you know, quickly packing up and then either taking a bus or, or taking a flight because you know, as I've alluded to, you know, a very large country. So when you've got a big distance to travel, more often than not it was on the plane. But I, I do recall some fairly hair raising bus rides. I would say you, you quickly either decide that you're going to travel with your eyes shut the whole time or you just kind of sit back and clench your fist fists and enjoy the ride and, and hope like hell you're going to get there some somewhere safely.

And how did you as players manage that amount of time away from home? Because you would have all been juggling job jobs and, and home lives at that stage in nineteen seven.

Yeah, that's true. Look, many of us I think were fortunate to have very good employers. Myself, I was always incredibly fortunate because I was a physio work for our public hospital system. Was always really fortunate that I, I got paid leave. If I remember correctly, some, some girls wouldn't have been as fortunate with being, you know, being able to have paid leave to go away. So I think all in all probably people looked upon it as a, a wonderful opportunity to go somewhere that they might never go to again. So I guess, you know, to my, to my knowledge all of the players who were available for selection chose to go once they were selected. So I guess sometimes you know, that's just choices you make even if financially you might struggle at the other end of it a little bit before we.

Get to the matches themselves and the cricket. Do you have memories of where you stayed at that time? What was your accommodation?

I, what I What I always Compare is the 97 accommodation, which was really excellent hotels, I would say, compared to, say, when I first toured India in 1985, where I always remember that we stayed at an army camp, boy, back in 85, where we didn't have running water, so the poor army guys had to heat up these great big walks of water that they could bring over in buckets. And, you know, your shower was standing and having a. Having a. Tipping. Tipping. Standing in the bucket and tipping the hot water over you for having the shower. Whereas in 97, I. I think for me, it was actually awesome to have gone in 1985 to see how much better it was in 97, if that makes sense. So, yeah, we stayed in some. We stayed in some really, really nice hotels. Yeah.

So I mentioned the massive crowd that came to Eden Gardens. We will get to the final. But what were crowds like during the group matches when you were playing?

Really good, like, really big. Like for us, like really, really big. I mean, you'd probably easily hit 15, 20,000 sometimes. And, and as we know, they love their cricket. They don't care whether it's men or women who play. Which is. Which is so exciting, you know, when you're a female cricketer playing then in 97, whereas in other countries, say, especially in your own country, you may not have had large crowds. So, you know, the type of atmosphere that you're playing against, it makes you feel really special. And clearly it's really nice to think back now that we were really entertaining all those people who came along.

Well, one aspect of the entertainment, the matches of previous World cups had been 60 overs a side by this stage. So these were now 50 overs aside, and that would have been what, partly to bring it in line with the men's game. That was 50 overs and, and with a sense of trying to make the, the matches, I guess, a little bit more engaging. Did you feel that was the case?

Yes, absolutely. I think that, you know, when I look back and think that we paid 60 overs, I think, and, and when you look at the scores back when we were playing 60 overs, it's almost like you sort of first 10 overs just not messing around, but I kind of feel like 60 overs really probably was 10 overs too long because it was a long time when you played 60 overs and we, we weren't getting, you know, we weren't scoring it, say four and over or even five and over. So I think playing 50 overs just worked much better in terms of, you know, your ability to play probably a better quality of cricket. Because you're not, you know, 10 overs is at or 40 more minutes that you're out on the field. And it does make it a really long day for spectators as well. So that was a, that was a very good innovation with bringing it into line with the men's.

And another first for the tournament. This was the first World cup where the uniform was trousers. Moving away from the, the Colots of previous World Cups.

Yes, thank goodness. Thank. Thank goodness. I think that if you're a fairly athletic team, playing in Colots was just wholly unsuitable for game where you're encouraging people to be very athletic. And you know, I recall in, you know, the year previous where the New Zealand team had toured England and we were still playing in Colots then and just lots of people getting lots and lots of grazes and infected grazes from where you're diving and then, and then looking like you're wearing trousers anyway because you're wearing Colots long socks and then you've got tubing around your knees to, to protect them from the grazer. So you may as well have been wearing trousers in the first place and then. And Colots were always hideous to iron, if I don't mind saying so. I had a lot of years of ironing those Colots.

The practicalities of traveling.

Right, Correct. Yeah. So it was much, much, much better playing in trousers. Yeah.

And what was there, what was the color of the New Zealand team strip?

We, we wore teal like a, like between a. It was a teal color between sort of bluey and greeny. But I actually really liked it. Yeah, it was cool. But it was, it was such a novelty playing in. So whatever color we'd been playing and I don't think that we would have minded, to be honest.

Tell me then about the New Zealand team that you took out to that tournament in 97.

Well, we had a, we had a, a team of good experience. Maya Lewis was the captain at that time. Emily, I think Emily Drummond myself opened for most of the matches, I think in India and that seemed to sort of go reasonably well in most of the games. But we had, you know, some good spin bowlers. Katrina Keenan or Katrina Withers as she was then, was one of our quicker bowlers, had a good all rounder and Sarah McLaughlin. So yeah, we had a, we had a good variety of some very useful and good spin bowlers, including Justine Fry, who was a left arm spinner, which gave us good variety. And so, yeah, I think that in, in most of the matches that we acquitted ourselves pretty well, really. Apart from one.

Yep. Well, look, tell us, talk us through the, if you like, the pathway to the final as you remember it and how you perform. Because when you, when you arrived in India, did you, I mean every team arrives believing that, you know, you're there because you can do well. But was there an expectation that you would make the final?

I think, I think we would certainly be hoping for that after having made the final 93 in England, you know, which was the first time that we had made the final and you know, you, that you know, fell at the last hurdle, if you want to use a, a good saying. So I think that certainly we would be hoping that we would get to the semi final and, and push on to the final. Probably one of the, one of the, one of the most notable matches I actually think was their first game against the Netherlands. And it wasn't so much because of how we played or how they played, but if I recall correctly, it had rained a lot before that game and we were desperate to play. If I recall correctly, I think it was a 20 over game which might have been the minimum that you had to play to register it as a game. And the ground staff were phenomenal. And I've got great photos because the ground staff, they had this thing like a big flat barbecue that they lit up, that they lit a fire inside it. So they, you know, lit wood and everything. So it was like you were having a barbecue in your backyard and then so they, it heated up this metal container which they then put great big sticks through. So it was. And then they lifted it up and put it on the pitch.

So it was, I've seen that in India. Y warming the pitch to dry it.

Absolutely incredible. No helicopters there. We've just got this big barbecue that's sitting on the middle of the pitch. But we managed to get that 20 over game and because we took the, the six points, I think it was, I think, I'm sure that it was six. I was looking at the points table the other night and I'm sure it was six points for a win, which is a humongous amount. But if we as, I think as the tournament went through, especially when we ended up having a tie with India, we had been able to that grant because the ground staff had been able to get that, that pitch ready to play and we took the win, it meant that we, we were able to end up staying in indoor which is where we'd played India for six nights rather than have to travel. I think that, you know, it depended on who we Then played in the quarterfinal. So I always feel so kindly towards that. Those ground staff for that fantastic innovation that we had never seen before. So. So that was cool. So play at the Netherlands and managed win. And then we had a couple of games in Chandigarh up north. Way up north. We played against Sri Lanka and West Indies. I think if I remember, I might have got 100 in each of those games, I think maybe. And then. So that would. So that went pretty well when we. We won those games and then played against in India at indoor. And that was very exciting because it ended up a tie with Katrina with us, or Keenan as she now is. Is now, but with us back. Must have needed one run to win. And she was bowling the last over and. And got the wicket on the first ball. So we ended up with a tie in that match. And that then meant that we were through to playing Ireland in the quarterfinal. I think it's the. Like the. The format of the tournament was different as well, because In England in 93, there were eight teams and we just played a straight round robin, but then no semi finals, which is weird to me. But so, you know, top just go straight to the final. Whereas in this tournament, because there were 11 teams there, we were able to have quarterfinals and then semi finals and then finals. So we took off to Mumbai and played Ireland in the quarterfinal. Managed to win that pretty easily, and then flew across the country to Chennai where we had Christmas Day before. We then played England in the semi final.

Yes, I noted that. Yeah, there was one match on Christmas Eve and another match on Boxing Day. So what was it like having Christmas Day bang in the middle of two important World cup matches?

Well, it was different. Yes, it was. It was. It was very different. But I did have one of my proudest moments where I. Because I took a Christmas tree. I must have taken a spare gear bag, I think. And so I took a Christmas tree, you know, like a ornamental one, about a meter high, I suppose it was, and decorations. And we got an electrician to wire it up in the corridor of the hotel we were staying. And we had all taken over gifts to give to each other. So we had a. We had a really good Christmas party. Just, you know, sitting in the hallway and. Yeah, it was. It was. It was very cool. Like different, but still really lovely to be able to spend it with your teammates. It was cool.

Yeah, I should say. They weren't New Zealand matches either side of Christmas Day. It's the two semi finals, one on Christmas Eve and one on Boxing Day with The final. Then on the 29th, the TMS podcast.

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Just to flag another significant match or moment that happened within that World cup and it was a game that you weren't at, but a record breaking match between Australia and Denmark and the Aussies with the highest team score at a World cup racking up 412 for three. They won by the largest winning margin at a World Cup. 363 runs. And then Belinda Clark, the Aussie captain, scored what became her famous 229not out. The highest individual score in a World cup and a first double hundred in any men's or Women's ODI. It came off 155 balls, 141 of those runs coming in boundaries. What, what was the reaction of all of you guys? Do you remember what you thought when you saw this score being racked up, noted that it was happening?

Oh, well, I think we were just, we, to be fair, communications were such that we probably didn't find out until after the game was finished. But we probably wouldn't have been surprised, I don't think. And we wouldn't have been surprised that Belinda had scored that many because you know, she was a absolutely terrific player. And I think, you know, like, to be fair, Denmark probably weren't their strongest opposition, which was clearly the case. And if any, it would either be her or it would have been Karen Rolten who had scored, scored 229. And, and Belinda obviously had a field day that day and was able to, you know, keep a concentration and you know, hitting, hitting that quantity of runs and boundaries. Well, she wouldn't, have, wouldn't have had to do much running I don't think. But, but yes, I guess when you, when you hear that total, you know, you, you, you're well impressed and, and with no disrespect to, to Australia or to Denmark, I guess that you kind of keep things in perspective a little bit. I mean if here by that many runs you we would have probably ourselves been thinking, oh crikey, they're on, they're in good form. But, but yeah, look, we just thought that was an amazing individual score. Like incredible individual score when you consider that you're actually only playing 50 overs.

Yeah, that's right. And the Aussies then inflicted more unwanted record on Pakistan who are playing in their first ever World Cup. And they were all out for 27 in just 82 balls. The shortest completed innings in a women's one day. They didn't then appear at a World cup again until 2009. But quite a story. Just the Pakistan women cricketers getting to that 97 World Cup.

Absolutely, yes, absolutely. I've subsequently read a little bit of the backstory about it because I, I hadn't been aware of it myself. And the Pakistan team had traveled to New Zealand earlier in 1997, sort of in January and also played. So they, they played some not internationals but sort provincial in some club games in New Zealand and then played two one day internationals against New Zealand and then one against Australia on the way home. But just to even get to the World Cup I think was a, an amazing achievement. And you know, I admire the resilience they had because they were getting, you know, soundly beaten in many of the games that they played. But also my understanding is they had a, a fairly horrific travel schedule as well. So I think that it would have been a rude awakening to some of those women who were playing international cricket. But I think, I just think good on them because they were trailblazers, I think, and to, you know, and that, and that's why I just had such admiration for the efforts that they clearly made to even get there in the first place. And even though they might not have appeared at another World cup for several later long got, they're going great guns now and they've stuck to it and they've had lots of improvements. So I think that they've got a lot to thank those 97 players for.

Well, let's talk about the final because it was quite an incredible time and incredible sights. When did you first realize that a massive number of people were coming in to watch you take on Australia in that World cup final at Eden Gardens?

Well, I think when we arrived at the ground there were already quite a lot of females there. And my, my understanding, if I, if I remember this correctly and I, and I'm happy to be corrected from anyone who listens that I think that they bust in quite a lot of schoolgirls to watch, which is, is, which is terrific when you're, when you're looking to inspire, you know, other girls and Women in India to play cricket. So I think, as you know, females and especially girls tend to probably be quite loud. You know, their voices are quite distinctive. So I think as soon as we arrived at the ground, there were. There were many. There were many spectators already there. And so, you know, the noise was. It's kind of, again, a bit like an assault on your senses, really. Yeah. And I, and I. I remember during the game there were occasions where something might happen and it felt like you were standing under a jumbo jet that was just about to take off. It was that, like, that raw was just. It's not something I've ever experienced before. Yeah, it was pretty amazing.

Yeah. I've read bearing reports from an estimated 50, 000 crowd all the way up to. To maybe 90,000. What. What do you think is a sort of probably acceptable number?

I. I think an acceptable number might be about 60 y. Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, it was. It was. It was pretty chopper and it's a big. And it. And it is a big ground and. And of course, it's a very long time ago. That's probably the main thing in terms.

Of the legend has grown, correct?

Yes, absolutely. But. But suffice to say that there was a lot of noise and a lot of excited people playing, which made for a really amazing atmosphere to be amongst.

There's a great line from one report saying that the state Transport Minister, Subhash Chakraborty, at the time had a reputation for getting big crowds into Eden Gardens. So I think very much that ties with the story of buses, those spectators, in making sure that they were there. And Belinda Clark, a quote from her saying they didn't count the people through the gate, but there were a lot of people there. And she said that added to a layer of nervousness that. That she said for her team certainly took a while to block out. How do you recall your team were, Debbie, as you took the field for that final?

Probably the same. I. I think, look, you. Well, look, you're nervous anyway because you're playing in a World cup final and I. Yeah, it. It just. I think when you, when you're fielding it well, when you feel. One of the big things I remember in India, it's really hard to hear what the captain's saying to you because of the background noise. So I remember that from, you know, my previous tour in India as well in 1985, that you end up using a lot of hand gestures and things and that's just something that you just simply not used to. So all of A sudden you have to, you know, you just have to learn a few new, new tricks and think, oh, well, that's not normal and stuff. But all in all, I think that when you're playing, when you're playing in front of a big crowd, it's really cool. That's the best thing I can say. You know, it's actually, it's a really cool feeling thinking that lots of people are watching what you're doing.

Well, I don't know whether you recall the final took place on a Monday. It was televised on Dordarshan, which is the Indian state television broadcaster. And it was because apparently there was a men's One Day International on the Sunday and so they didn't want that clash. So you were playing on the Monday but you were televised on, on Indian state tv. So the toss was won by New Zealand. The decision was taken to bat first. You were bowled out for 164 and you played rather a lone hand there, didn't you, with your 79. Ultimately, aren't you player of the match? But what did you sort of feel as you were going through that interview innings?

Frustration, probably. Like when I, again, it's, you know, stats don't lie, do they? And when I was having a look back through the school board just, or last night, actually, I think eight of our players scored less than 10 runs. So it's pretty hard to win a game when that happens. We had one player scored 10, I think Rebecca Roll scored 18 and I got 70 odds. So it just makes sense. It challenging, really. It makes it challenging to. Well, look, it's disappointing. It's challenging and it's disappointing and frustrating probably, and, and even, you know, but, but also I'm really, really still frustrated at myself for how I got out because I was betting with Rebecca at the time and we were going along. All right, I think in, and I think she said to, she must have said to me, look, I think that you should back right to the end. But you know, I, I, I recognize now not when I was playing, but I had this weird thing about not wanting to be seen to be, not betting for myself. But I didn't want to appear to be selfish or anything with, you know, not trying to score more runs for the last few hours or so, which I, when I look back on, I think, oh my God, what were you thinking? Because you're 70 something, you've got about three overs to bat. If you stay there, you're probably going to get more. So, oh, it just frustrates me but Anyway, so. And I was facing Catherine Fitzpatrick, who. Who. And I did this twice in my career. Ellie against her. Who in the, at the tail end of the inning is going to be the best person probably in the world because she's bowling fast, she's bowling full and she's bowling straight. So if you miss it, she's going to get you out. So, so I think, you know, I was, I'm just, I'm probably more annoyed now than I was at the time, but to be fair, look, it was disappointing to, for the team to have played well throughout the tournament, but then again feeling like we hadn't recognized our potential which subsequently resulted in Australia scoring more runs than we did. Where. And it was just, just jolly disappointing.

Yeah, the Aussies getting, reaching their target with 14 balls to spare, probably that second wicket stand between Belinda Clark and Michelle go putting on 71. Yeah, was the, the bulk of that run chase, wasn't it? And then it must have been very bittersweet to be player of the match but on the losing side in the final.

Oh, look, you, you ask any player who has been named player of the match because if I remember, if I remember correctly, when we talk about when, if we're talking about say the two cup final, I think Belinda Clack was named player of the final and on the losing side as well. And believe me, it means nothing.

Kane, Kane Williamson, was he the same, wasn't he in the 2019 World cup final? Was that player seriously? And you.

And you think, oh for goodness sake, I'm sure someone on the winning team would have played well enough. But I think. And then what, what I did recognize about playing in India is I think batters rule because I think no matter like it was always a batter won the player of the matches. Especially like saying, saying the games that we played. And so, so yeah, when you say bittersweet, there was like. And I certainly don't mean any disrespect to the Indian association or the person who chose me as the player of the match, but you know, when you, when that's the, when it's the second World cup final in a row that you've lost, it doesn't really. It's. It is bit bittersweet isn't like. Is a very, very good description. Yeah.

And just a note on an inspirational point. Julian Goswami, Indian great fast bowler, was a ball kid on that day at Eden Calcutta. It was her first time at an international game and she has said that she heard from her academy friends that someone called Fitzy bold fast for Australia. And she was inspired to bowl fast by Catherine Fitzpatrick at Eden Gardens.

What an outstanding story. Story.

It's a lovely note, isn't it?

Isn't it? God, I. I must be really old, is what I'm thinking now. If, if Julian was the ball kid there and. Yeah, yeah. What a great. That's a. That's a fabulous story. That's the thing, is that if you see it, you can be a day.

Exactly where do you think that World cup they helped to set you up for the next. Just briefly, because the Aussies were a dominant force at that time. A fourth World cup for that them. What do you think your team learned from that experience?

I think we learned that it sucks even more when you've lost two finals in a row. Yeah. Compared to one. It was really hard for those of us, especially for those of us who had played in both of them. And I think it just. It probably just re you because we'd play. We played Australia a lot. Like even, you know, before we sort of started playing World Cups. And, and I think that, you know, they probably had the hold over us, I think it would be fair to say. And I guess it's just, you know, you. You have to be able to. You have to be able to especially back better in precious situations of, of that sort of occasion. I think. I suppose it's. It's a long time between World Cups, you know, when you have four years, so there's a lot of water under the bridge between. But like, if you would say if you were a coach, for example, I' thinking, well, maybe. Maybe people need to work more on their mental skills if they're, you know, like, say, in finals, for example, if they're getting really nervous or something. Perhaps. Perhaps there's some common factor that was lacking a little bit. I don't know. I'm. I'm only just thinking about that now. But all in all. Yeah, it's just. I just remember being so really disappointed. Yeah, really disappointed.

But the good news was at the next World cup, you managed to get the win, which we will explore in another podcast. Debbie Hockley, thank you so much for being with us on the TMS podcast and sharing your memories.

Thanks very much.

Well, that's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you subscribe so you get a notification every time we upload. Also, check out the rest of the Women's World cup podcasts we've done as they're available on the TMS feed right now. And as is the latest episode of no Balls with Kate Cross and Alex Hartley. And while you're on BBC Sounds, search for BBC stumps while you're there. Thanks for listening. Speak to you next time. Bye. Bye.

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