How Australia won the 2005 Women's World Cup

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You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Hello, this is Alison Mitchell with a special episode of the TMS podcast. We'll be looking back at the 2005 Women's World cup where Australia won their fifth title and the tournament was held in South Africa for the first time. I'll be joined by World cup winner Julia Price who tells me what it was like to lift the cup for a second time, the impact of captain Belinda Clark, and what it was like playing in South Africa.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

So Julia Price, you were Australia's wicket keeper across three World Cups, winning in 97 and then in 2005. So tell me, did defeat in the year 2000 in the final in between that spur you on for the 05.

Tournament as much as I'd say it shouldn't as a World Cup. You want to win every World cup, but absolutely it was definitely a redemption sort of World cup for us. There were seven of us that were in the 2000 World cup that turned up again for 2005 and I don't know if it was actually spoken about per se, but I know that I had on my phone for five years two words and the last one was it and the first one started with F and those message stayed on my phone for nearly five years because we all knew that we'd stuffed it up in New Zealand. We should have won that World Cup. New Zealand just outplayed us in the final. We probably didn't prepare as well as we could have by rotating our our team and I think that was helped us to Go forward and how to prepare for the tournament, play like a World cup, which. Which can be pretty taxing. So, yes, it certainly was a driving force for us and it was probably nearly as more of a relief at the end of the World cup than joyous sort of a celebration because it was, you know, just one of those things that we'd had on our mind for so long.

So you went out to South Africa, an eight team tournament around Robin with the top four going through to semis yourselves, along with India, England, New Zealand, Ireland, South Africa, Sri Lanka and West Indies. First of all, for the World cup being held in South Africa, because significance there, that only just returned to the World cup in 1997 after the country was readmitted to the international cricket post apartheid. Were you sort of aware of that significance at the time, going out there?

Yeah, absolutely. I think that 97 World cup was the biggie because initially there were 12 teams supposed to be in it. 11 turned up in South Africa, obviously coming back into it, as you mentioned. Then they toured Australia in 1998, so, and then 2000, we played them in the semifinals. So we knew that they're a big cricketing nation, they've got a proud history, particularly with the men's team. So it was always the case with the women that, you know, that was always going to be the pathway for them as well. So us having to go to South Africa to play them, we knew they were going to be tough on home soil. We knew it was great for the development of the team. It was already getting better and better with, with opportunity. So, yeah, it was, it was quite clear that it was a really good moment for South African cricket.

Sadly for them, they weren't able to make the semi finals on their home soil. But what was your expectation of a tournament being staged there? Your memories of the, the grounds that you played at, particularly around the group stages?

Yeah, I mean, we didn't really have much of an idea. None of us had really been there. Mel Jones and I had been there actually in 1999. She was working out there for Gauteng, I think, cricket association and coaching. So of course I had to visit. So we sort of had seen that what the pitches and conditions were like, but really it was already quite foreign. So our expectations were just, you know, John hammered taught us pretty well over the past 10 years and had really got us to prepare for being uncomfortable and the unexpected. So we were just there to make sure that we assessed the conditions. Well, we played good cricket. We were expecting it to be a Little bit similar to Australia, I suppose, being a Southern Hemisphere country and the style of cricket that the men's team play. So we didn't really go in with too many expectations of exactly how it was going to be. But there was a lot of rain around that tournament, which was probably one thing we weren't expecting around that time of year. It was March, I think, in 2005, so we were sort of expecting all the rain to be over by that time. So that probably was one thing that threw a little bit of a spanner in the works for the tournament. And most of it was also based around Pretoria, which, again, we didn't know a lot about the conditions and the grounds that we'll be playing on, other than Supersport Park.

Yeah, one of them, a little ground called Esterus I. I remember about 15km east of Pretoria. I was there as the BBC reporter, primarily following England through the group stages and then the. The semis and the final. I do remember the club grounds not having brilliant drainage. So when it did rain, one of the England matches, yeah, completely washed out very quickly. The welcome party, do you remember that? A dinner with African dancing. Singing it really, to me, sort of set the tone as, oh, you know, we're at a. We're at a real event here.

Yeah, it was a fantastic sort of welcome ceremony for us. And it sort of really made you realize that you're part of something special. Obviously, World Cups. For a little while there, we were paying to get to them. This was nice that we were actually getting it covered by our sponsors, which was brilliant. And Cricket Australia being our first World Cup, I think, under Cricket Australia's banner as well. Up until then, we'd been with Women's Cricket Australia, so we'd amalgamated already with Cricket Australia. But, yeah, it was an amazing start to kick off the tournament and really got you inspired to. To realize where you're at and how special World Cups can be. You know, I think that was Belinda's, Belinda Clark's fourth World cup there, Catherine Fitzpatrick's as well. So quite a few girls have been to a lot of World Cups, but it still was just something different being in South Africa and being able to be part of that different cultural experience, the social experience of having all the different teams there as well, and also our experience of being an Australian team and how we were going to operate together.

And so what difference did it make for you guys coming under the Australian cricket board in that material sense? You know, going out on a tour and onto foreign soil like. Like a World Cup?

I just think we felt like we had more support, we had more resources when we were back home. We'd done a bit of a review of and sort of rethink about the sort of branding of what the Australian women's Crick cricket team. We'd been the southern stars up until that point and that we'd really tried to shift it around sort of. I think they eventually went back to the Australian women's cricket team, but we were trying to become our own identity. But part of Cricket Australia, they changed the. Our baggy greens for the Test series. We had a very similar or just reverse color of the men's baggy green with regards to the logoing. So we really felt part of the whole system at that point and had been. I think it was 2001 that we. That we went on our first tour under Cricket Australia. And so this was our first World cup under Cricket Australia. They probably supported us a little bit more. There was more media around it, definitely, and just the advertisements from Cricket Australia and the support from back home probably just made us feel part of the bigger picture.

Did you have any traveling media with you, the Australian team? Because I was moving around feeling like I was the sole traveling journalist alongside actually James Fitzgerald, who was the correspondent for the Irish Times following Ireland's women. But other than that, I don't think I came across another journalist until we got to the semi finals and the finals which were televised and therefore there was a much more full sort of media presence all around. But. But still at that stage. Yeah. I'm not sure there were other traveling journalists on board.

To be fair, I'm really rubbish with this.

Well, when you're in play, you don't necessarily need to notice, do you?

Which is bad. I know, but I don't recall anyone being there, honestly. I know previously in New Zealand trips, I do remember we'd had people come over, so it would have made sense that we had someone there or a media manager. But I. I don't recall one. I don't even remember one. Even in the finals. I just don't remember anyone being there at all, funnily enough. So I've just given them a big rap about their support. We had no one there.

But back then, yeah, coverage, the semis in the final being televised, did that feel like a big deal, having that live coverage? I mean, yeah, there'd been different coverage. When you go back and look at when, say, Krikinfo sponsored, you know, an earlier World cup that. That brought in that live bull by ball for the very first time. But yeah, by the time you got to those Knockouts, were you aware of this sort of exposure?

Yeah, we were. It probably didn't really make too much of a difference. By that point we'd had a lot of coverage on tv, particularly under cricket Australia since we joined with them. The World cup in 2000 in New Zealand had a lot of coverage. Every game was televised from memory. But yeah, it was great that we had the semi final final so people back home could watch watch it. Similar sort of timelines to a point if you want to watch it in the evening. But it was, it was great that it became a bigger deal and we're playing on the bigger fields.

What about the place you were staying for this World Cup? You were all sort of in together, weren't you? All the teams together in Pretoria.

Yeah, it was, it was a little Shawshank Redemption. You know, we're all sort of stuck in there and it was, you know, high performance center. Well, high performance would be a question. But it was a university and you know, it was university accommodation. So it was what it was, you know, and we're in bunk beds and you know, it's, it was sort of fun. But at the same time everyone was on top of each other and you know, Sri Lanka on one level, we're on the next level and bottom level would have England and so you're passing each other and you just didn't have that space. Sometimes you need as a team and then also individually it's nice to get away. They did have a bar to be fair. So occasionally you could pop down for a beer and you'd take that for a walk across the rugby fields and go away and try and just find some time on your own for a bit. But it was difficult to find that space and in fact I found the tournament quite intense because of that exact reason. The fact that it was non stop either and there was nothing to do as well. It wasn't like you could relieve your time to go out shopping or go out for a coffee somewhere. You. We weren't allowed to leave the university grounds as well because it was all under armed guard because the area, they were concerned about our safety even though it's a reasonably safe area. I just didn't think they wanted to risk any of us leaving the ground. So everyone was sort of stuck in this one area and we're all going a little stir crazy. So I think that just added to the, the tension of the World cup. And when we did get the opportunity to leave we actually played the West Indies in Rustenburg, I think, which is near Sun City, which we were so excited to leave the university grounds and escape for a while. And great fun playing the West Indies. It was their first World cup for a long time. I think their average age was 42, so they were pretty experienced older ladies, but not lacking in confidence at all. They absolutely gave it to us, but it was really good fun. And then we got to go out in a bit of a safari as well. So we did get to have a small peep of what South Africa was like, you know, on that little mini trip when we got to escape from the university for. For one game. But, yeah, and as I mentioned, down to Potchester for the semi final and then back to Pretoria for the final.

I was going to say it was probably a good thing they did keep you in in Pretoria because I mentioned James Fitzgerald, the other journalist traveling, actually did get mugged on one occasion. So he had a little bit of. A little bit of a scary experience. But, yeah, other than that, I mean, yeah, I was moving around very happily, spending most of my time with Jill McConway, who's the England team manager. So she sort of became my buddy as we went to and from England matches together. Must ask you about the matches and your captain, Belinda Clark, because this was to be her last World Cup. What kind of a leader was she and what are your standout memories from the pathway to the final?

Yeah, Belinda, she's an incredible leader and she's one of those players that when we start to get, feel a little bit under the pump and maybe the pressure of the game has shifted and suddenly it's back on us. We, you know, you sort of can just glance over at Belinda and you know that she's just got it under control and you suddenly get your confidence back as she never let anyone in to see if she was feeling that pressure at all. She always just had that face on. She was a big finger pointer as well. Like whenever she was, you could tell a little bit when she started to want to step up, she'd be pointing where people needed to feel. And, you know, we used to make jokes about, you know, things that we couldn't do as a team. And her thing was always she wasn't allowed to point. And so she'd, in the end, like, she'd be, you know, using just her fist to point people to different places to, you know, so I had a good sense of humor at the same time as being a really inspirational captain. Obviously a game awareness was Incredible. And just managed the team very, very well. And then on top of that, you've got her own skills as well with the bat. Absolutely incredible. And an excellent fielder as well. Didn't. I can't even recall her ever really dropping a catch. Actually. That's not true. She did drop one in the Ashes and then got the run out off the drop. So, you know, she made up. Yeah, correct. She isn't. She isn't perfect, but. Yeah, no, she was fantastic for. For the game in Australia. She's still fantastic for the game in Australia. She's still a legendary name. And it's great that younger girls see her as a. An inspiration and a motivation, that role model to keep aspiring to, for maybe them to be one day either playing for Australia or captaining Australia.

So you made it through to the semis where you came up against England. Were you worried about that match at all? I mean, this was again, the arch rivalry, wasn't it? England and Australia coming together?

Yeah, absolutely. England had improved a lot with John harbor, had become a traitor and gone over there in 2001 to help out England cricket. And I think that was just that real shift that they needed to get someone externally to come in and say, hey, this is what they're doing in Australia. And they're like, whoa, you know, and they really lifted their game. Claire Connor was the captain and she's extremely competitive, you know, and she was really trying to drive England to be the best that they could be. So we knew that they were going to be difficult and as well, in the first round we played them. We had them pretty much on the ropes for a while there. And then I know Jenny Gunn came out and got some late runs in the game, which sort of made us sit back and think they got some fight in them, the English, you know, we know they want to come at us. And fortunately or unfortunately that game got washed out, so it didn't really matter in the end. But we'd sort of got a bit of a look at them, but not a big look. So, yeah, that semi final, we were, you know, quite aware that they'd really improved their game. I think in 2003 in New Zealand, we'd also played a World Series, they called it us, India, England and Australia all played in it. And England had really improved for that. Their professional was. Professionalism was much better. The way that they went about the game, you could see their structures were much better. And we sort of like, okay, we've really got to keep lifting our game. We all the time and, and that's what's so good about, I suppose, World Cups. You win one, but you can't stop, you know, trying to improve because you know that people are going to be chasing you. And England certainly did that over that four year period.

The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live. Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

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And the England team also featured a very young Catherine Brunt who was starting out in international cricket as well. Charlotte Edwards was also in the side. India made their first ever final making the semis. They beat New Zealand to make it through. Did you at the time think that that would be a big deal for the global game, India making a final, that it might unlock anything or, you know, as a player you just so focused on, you know, what your own team is doing rather than of any wider picture?

Yeah, well, probably was not aware of how much impact that would have on the game generally. I certainly thought about that more in 2017 when they played in that one. I thought that would, I could understand by that point that, you know, India were getting better and better all the time. Obviously making that World cup was pretty significant for them eventually to, to continue to be that driving force, top four in the world. Yeah, I think it was, it was probably the start of, of that change of culture and this change of thinking about how women's cricket was perceived in India. So. Yes, didn't understand it at the time. Certainly did after that World Cup. Obviously they didn't perform how they would have liked to in that tournament, but Mitali Raj certainly did. I think she got 90 odd or. But was really the sort of the standout. Yeah, for the Indian team, but an amazing effort for them to get into that final. We saw, we watched that the semi final against New Zealand and our thought, have to admit though, when they beat New Zealand was like that already won the World cup so we sort of thought that was a thing.

Well, it was India's first time in the final and they were under captain Mitali Raj, who remarkably would still be captaining them at the 2017 World cup final as well. And significantly that it was the first time any Asian country had reached the final. And when they, despite losing in the final, when they went back to India they were really fettered on return. The sponsor Sahara called a press conference at the Mumbai Hotel. Big press conference to, to welcome them back. So it was a significant deal. They had made the final and immense pride was taken with that. Let's turn to the final then, Julia. It's Super Sport Park. Centurion photographs I've got of the lineup for the anthems show smattering of spectators around the grassy banks. That was all for the final. Reports remind me that it cost 20 South African rand to get into either the semi or the final. So that was about, well, £1 80 British pounds at that time. You line up for the anthems. What happens next?

I can't remember if India were first or we were first but either way I'm pretty sure it was our second actually. And all I remember is the start of Maloko's. The time is now started for our national anthem and we're all sort of staying there. And what had happened. I think that the Australian national anthem was on our playlist and I think they just handed them the CD back then, the playlist and I think they just pushed the first song which in fact was Sally Bailey's Our. She was quite pumped that our. That her song on the playlist had been. Been the national anthem for that day. So it was sort of good because it maybe sort of broke the tension because we know obviously a World cup final against India that we hadn't played a huge amount against a little bit of an unknown. But yeah, it did sort of break the tension a little bit, make us laugh which was, which is a good thing because we were quite aware of the significance of us trying to have that redemption from the previous World cup as well. And for me personally as well, I'd been dropped from the Australian team the year before so it was really significant for me to have worked really hard to get back into that team as well. And I'm sure there's lots of other personal stories of everyone sort of having different reasons of why it was significant for them, but yeah, it was a very funny moment though.

So they found advanced Australia fair eventually.

Yeah.

So your team, The Aussies batted first 215 for four and Karen Rolson became the first player to score a century in, in a World cup final. India then all out for 117 and four runouts within that time. What, what do you remember of the. The pathway towards that victory?

Yeah, I, I just remember that it was an absolute belter of a deck. It was flat, there was nothing in it. We didn't know how we're going to be getting any wickets because it just wasn't doing anything. Same time our bowlers the entire tournament had really bold stump to stump. A lot of our dismissals were either caught behind the wicket or bold or lbw. So we kept the stumps in play and obviously by doing that was putting a lot of pressure on the batters. They couldn't get the run. So. And our feeling was always, you know, sort of pride of place for the Australians that we were quite athletic in the field and could put pressure on, on the batting partnerships. And I think that really showed in that final when they weren't getting any runs, they were having to take high risk runs and you know, thus we got the, the four run out. So. But I, yeah, I recall just how difficult it was to. There wasn't much beating the bat that day. I was a bit bored behind the stumps I think personally, but, but it was a great bowling effort from our players. Karen Rolten's hundred, I mean, and I think Lisa laker got a 50 as well.

She did, yeah.

And Karen Rolton got a duck in the, in the 2000 final. So she was also very aware of her lack of impact in the last final that she'd played in. So she was really pumped with the fact and she got play of the tournament as well after that as well. Just an incredible play out, probably ahead of her time. Between Belinda and Ralts, I always debate about who's my favorite or the most impressive batter that I've seen and probably for different reasons, but Karen Rolman's to me, the first batter that was going over the top of COVID and really, you know, we see that Beth Mooney all the time. It's just like a staple for her. But for someone in that sort of era, Ralts was way ahead of everyone else and started really setting the tone and lifting the, the bar for all the, the future batters to come on how, how, how to put together an innings, how to bat under pressure, rotating strike, all that sort of stuff. So yeah, her, her innings just sort of set it up for us and we felt very confident with that, that score on the, on the board.

Yeah. That image of her batting with the white wide brim, sun hat, the floppy is quite iconic, isn't it?

Yeah.

What was it like keeping wicket to Catherine Fitzpatrick? Because she was widely renowned as the quickest in the game and the women's.

Game at that point, yeah, it was scary. In fact, I was so worried that I'd stuff up and she'd absolutely tear me new ones. So she. She didn't hold back too much. She was a pretty. She's an aggressive fast bowler. That's exactly what she is and that's what we wanted her to be. And she struck fear, I think, through most people in her own team. Just socially we were scared of her. But, yeah, no, she was fantastic and really led from the front and obviously played for a long time. I think she played till she was 40, so I think she played in five World Cups, which is an incredible effort, particularly for a fast bowler. Yeah, really looked after herself. Very fit, made sure she was doing all the right things. But, yeah, had a huge impact on the game as a fast bowler and sort of really led that bowling unit as well, because we had a few younger players in there. Emma Liddell, Clea Smith in their first World Cups. Julie Hayes was in a second World cup. Probably not outright quick. She was a bit of a little. Little dobbler, but. But, yeah, she was good for that bowling unit and keeping them competitive and. And making sure that everyone was working hard and keeping on track. And a good foil for Belinda, who was sort of that batting captain. Fielding captain and Fitz with the bowling unit.

Now, given Matali Raj had scored 91 in the semi final, she would have been a key wicket to get in the run in the run chase. A report from the final says, and I quote, Raj out to a debatable lbw. It was bold by Shelley Nitschke. Just wonder. Wonder whether you recall that moment at all.

No, I don't care. You're out. Don't question the umpire.

No, I thought that might be the case. What about the winning moment, though? What. What was that like? Particularly because you'd already had one winning moment in 1997. So I wonder how. How did the two contrast? Because actually, 97 was quite different for, I guess, the number of people in the stadium, not least.

Yeah, 97 was crazy. And my first World cup. And, yeah, the 60. Well, we get different 60,000. We've been going 60,000, all women, which was great. You know, they'd ship them all in. So, yeah, the crowd was going crazy. We're playing New Zealand, so again, the same as this one. Not a home crowd necessarily, and we were only chasing 165, so it wasn't a huge difference. This one was, like I mentioned, it was that redemption, it was that relief at the end of it, as opposed to Elation, which was the first one, or nearly surprise was the first. Not surprised. But, you know, wow, that was fun. You know, it was just like a World cup where this one was the real pressure of, you've won the World Cup. It was hard earned. You've made up for the previous stuff up. Yeah. So it was, it was, it was very much a relief. I don't know if there was wild celebrations, but certainly celebrations, but it wasn't anywhere near what was like in India with the. The mayhem that can happen in India as well. But, yeah, it was a very. It was a good celebration that night. All the teams, again, because we're all staying in this university accommodation, we're all in the refectory together and we're all just having beers and all the teams were mingling and it was actually really, really nice, actually. And Ireland obviously were there and we got on very well with, as we always do, and Miriam Greeley, I think she was one of their legends from Ireland. She was retiring. So again, it sort of nearly became about her retirement drinks, as opposed to us winning the World cup, which was sort of nice. And we didn't care because we, deep down, I think we were inwardly very happy with how it went. Outwardly, just relief, you know, it was just, we've done it, we can relax now, it's all done.

And this was the last World cup before the International Women's Cricket Council merged with the icc. Was there much conversation around that at the time, insofar as, you know what you hope that might do for the game, or was it not really on your radar when you're there to win a World Cup?

It was definitely spoken about a lot and I can't remember, I should know the name. Eugenie Buckley was the name of the woman. How I remember that, I have no idea. Australian woman who was working for the ICC and she was coordinating sort of that, really, that. That crossover between the two. So it was spoken about a lot that this was the last IWCC World cup.

And I remember Betty Timmer was out in South Africa and she was the chair. She was head of the iwcc, wasn't she from the Netherlands?

Absolutely, yeah. And she's been instrumental for the Netherlands for a long time and also for pushing women, women's cricket generally in the world. But yeah, so it was. It was definitely spoken about. It was constantly in our face, which was fine and, you know, great. And we could see that that was a really good shift. Well, we were assuming that it was going to be a really good shift forward again because we'd had five years under Cricket Australia already and seen what difference it could make to our professionalism and our access to fields and access to resources and different coaches and additional support coming in from sponsors and fan base support around the world as well. So I think we all knew that it was the direction to go. I don't know how, you know, we didn't know how far it was actually going to help us and what it was going to do, but it was definitely that next shift that women's cricket needed in the world.

Julia Price, great to get your memories. Thanks for speaking to us about the 2005 World Cup.

No worries at all.

Well, that's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you subscribe so you get a notification every time we upload. Also, check out the rest of the Women's World cup podcasts we've done, as they're available on the TMS feed right now, as is the latest episode of no Balls with Kate Cross and Alex Hartley. And while you're on BBC Sounds, search for BBC Stumps while you're there. Thanks for listening. Speak to you next time. Bye bye.

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

And that was the first time that.

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