How do England win the Ashes down under?

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Hello and welcome to the TMS podcast with me, Alison Mitchell. We are closing in on around about three months from the Ashes getting underway, so we're marking your card on all the issues which will dominate conversations over the winter. Now, to do all of that, I'm joined by a couple of ex players who know just what it's like to tour down under in the Ashes. We've got, of course, former England spinner Phil Tufnell with us. Good evening to you, toughers.

Evening all.

Hello. Hello. And former England opener Michael Carvery. How are you, Michael?

Good evening, Ali, how are you?

Very well, thank you. And also with us is the Durham head coach and former Australia wicket keeper, Ryan Campbell. Hello to you, Ryan.

G', day, Ellie. How you doing?

Very well, thanks. Welcome along. We've also got with us our chief cricket reporter, Stefan Schemelt as well.

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Toughers. Can you believe it is 74 days until the Ashes. That comes around quick, doesn't it?

Well, it always does, doesn't it? No, the excitement starting to build, isn't it? You know, as you say, we're on here, I'm not quite sure the significance of the 74th day before the Ashes, you know, and let's all start. Well, there you go. But yeah, I mean, listen, it's on everyone's lips now, isn't it? You know, we're all Getting excited about it and it's just an iconic series and I think one that England will be thinking that they have a chance if they go over there and hit the ground running, that they can perhaps Nick.

Well, Michael Carberry, this is why I come to you. Do you think this is England's best chance since they last won down under in 2011?

Good evening, everyone. I think it could possibly be. Yeah, I think on both sides there's a few, few issues in terms of what bodies are fit and still standing and I think if England can start well, and that's always been the, the problem that down under, bar one series, they've never been able to start well. They've always been playing catch up and once you let Australia on top, they're very, you know, it's very hard to stop. So I think that's going to be the key is a who's fit and who can stay fit. But then if you can start well in the series, I think it goes a long way to really sort of taking the air out of the tyres.

In terms of Australia and tyres which you know all about having face to be Mitchell Johnson bumpers in your time in that 2013-14 series I mentioned. We've got our chief cricket reporter Stefan Schemolt with us for the first part of this show as well. Steph, good evening to you. You look like you're surrounded by mascots there. You at home?

I am at home. It's bedtime upstairs for my two small children. So I'm down surrounded by the teddy bears.

Excellent. I love the backdrop. Look, tell us, I mean we've heard from Brendan McCullum off the back of the the one day series just completed, but saying England are still to decide on the 11 players that will play in that first Ashes test, just sort of give us a bit of a roundup of what issues and selections are still up in the air. What are the biggest talking points?

Yeah, I think he's, I don't know if he's been a bit clever with us there, Brendan McCollum, because he certainly wouldn't want to be revealing to the, the 16 or 17 men that are getting on the plane that he already knows his, his first 11 because that might deflate some before they've even taken their seats. We're expecting an Ashes squad at the end of this month. So England's summer, if you will, finishes not at home in Ireland at the end of that T20 series. Two weeks time and maybe even two weeks today, as early as two weeks today. We might know the Ashes squad certainly around about that week. We're expecting an announcement and I think if actually we were going to bat around the issues surrounding that squad, it might be quite a short conversation because England have planned for this for quite a long time. There's probably only two slots up for grabs and even they might not be up for grabs now. I think it's the backup spinner to show it, Bashir. And you'd have to say that Ray and Ahmed is probably favorite to take that and as Ryan's already alluded to that, that that six seamer slot and it looks like Matthew Potts is favorite to take that one. Whether or not we or, or the people listening agree with the names that have been identified for England to go down under on the plane, the fact is England have identified them and they identified them a long time ago. Think back to those changes that they made at the start of the home summer last year. James Anderson, Johnny Burstow, Jack Leach, Ollie Robinson all moved aside for players like Gus Atkinson. Jamie Smith showed shear coming into the side. BR car is another one with this Ashes tour in mind. So England are settled. That's a good thing because Australia, that 2010-11 series you mentioned, Ali, is unusual because in that series they did not play one debutant. Everyone who went on that tour and play, or, or at least everyone who played in the test matches on that tour had test match experience. And if you think of the times when Ash's series can unravel, it's one cap handed out in Sydney scrambling to get an 11 together. So England will be settled once they've named that squad. How are they going to prepare? How are they going to make sure that when they get to Perth and the music stops, if you will, everyone is fit and firing and I think certainly Ryan's going to be at the heart of that, making sure that, that some of the key players are at the are at their best come that time. How well England prepare in terms of their, their warm ups and then what, 11 they settle on in Perth because as Michael's already alluded to, the spot's going to be absolutely crucial.

But Michael toughers and Ryan, let's throw around some of these issues then and let's concentrate Ryan on Ben Stokes to start with. A Durham player, your head coach, you know him well. Are you seeing him around much at the moment and how is he being managed at the moment off this, this latest, the shoulder tear?

Yeah, he is back into training. He's been hitting for the first time over the last week he started to hit balls and, you know, had a really good. I think Scotty Borthwick was actually throwing to him with Will Gidman for nearly two hours the other day. So the batting side of things is going really well. Obviously the bowling will take a lot longer and he's being treated very steady, steady as, as we go, so to speak. But I will say, and again, I'm sorry if I say I'm old and, you know, bring up some old names, but I was lucky enough to be a part of a WA team in Australian era where Michael Hussey and Justin Lange, I thought, and Adam Gilchrist were probably the hardest working people I've ever seen in the cricket area in the, in the whole thing. And now after coaching, after watching, after seeing Ben Stokes is in front of those people that I just reel off. And that hurts me to say because, you know, I'm Aussie. But the way that he goes about his work to recover blows me away. And, you know, it's why he's obviously one of the greatest all rounders that's ever been. It's why he'll be ready for Australia. He won't leave any stone unturned. Can he play five Test matches on the trot with the workload he does? Obviously he's going to try. I'm not 100% sure now, but I'm sure he'll find a way because he. If you want to go to the end, answer right now. England can only win if Ben Stokes plays five tests and does well. There you go.

That's, that's the show.

There you go. But in my opinion, about.

Right, yeah.

If he, if he doesn't play all five, you're in trouble. And I still think you're in trouble. I think Australia going to win the Ashes. But that guy is so good because he makes your batting lineup obviously deep. But then he's a genuine fourth, third seamer or four seamer who could open the bowling. Not that he does, but can do it. And he's going to bowl so many overs, he's going to get wickets. And mate, if he goes down, it's all she wrote.

Ryan Tougher's here.

Hello, mate.

Yeah, I was just wondering, you're saying about can he play five test matches? We've been throwing around, you know, the likes of Wood, Archer, Tongue, Atkinson as a coach, do you go there with a sort of a bowling unit in mind for each Test match or do you sort of say 1, 3 and 5 or, you know, how do you sort of get that in your head or is it just keep going lads until you fall over and then we'll put someone else in.

No, tough as I reckon it'll be very, very planned way ahead. So you think about it. For the first time, Perth is the first test, not Brisbane.

Yeah.

And Brisbane is always where Australia wins. Every, you know, every country that comes, they get beaten up in Brisbane. But now they're going to play the West Indies. Yeah, well, except the West Indies. That's right. So they're going to play in Perth which obviously the stadium that bounces, it's going to be fiery and all that. So I would have thought that England are thinking, well, Archer and Wood definitely can't play five tests but we need them on the fastest, bounciest wickets. Then you've got a day night match in Brisbane that's never been done before. And let me tell you, I played day night cricket in Brisbane and it's going to be tough. That's not going five days. I'm telling you now, no one's surviving five days in Brisbane with the humidity and those balls will swing around corners. So that's. So they're going to have to use their skillful bowlers up there. Adelaide's obviously quite flat and Melbourne and Sydney are different. So I, I've got a feeling they're going to plan it from a long way out. Which bowler? The, you know, Brydon Cass. What role he plays? Wooden Archer. You know, I've got my fingers crossed that Mark Wood plays for us next week and if that happens, that'll be great for us. But it's also.

Is he very close to playing? He will play.

He's extremely close. He's. He can't play five tests as well like you say. So I reckon they're going to go wooden Archer, maybe never in the same test match. And so you're going to have to spread those out. But they're very calculated. They, they won't leave things to chance if, perhaps if, you know, if a bowler doesn't bowl the overs they thought they were going to bowl and can they back up? What's the situation of the test series? All that will come into it, of course, but mate, they'll have a very clear structure of how they're going to play their fast bowlers for sure.

I have to admit I'm getting slight chills about the first test match in the Ashes. Last time in Australia when the bowling seemed really mapped out and the first test featured neither Broad nor Anderson. Nobody could believe it. And that, that did not go so well. Michael Carbery, just Ben Stokes as the bowler, as the batter. What does he do to an Australian side when they look and they see Ben Stokes name on that team sheet?

The obvious one for me, Ben Stokes is a 3 in 1 cricketer. He holds a fear factor in for me against Australians. I mean a lot of those players are still around from his exploits way back in 2019 when he single handedly took them down. You know, they'll still be very much aware of what Ben Stokes can do. You know, he's, he's a, he can be a match winner just on his own with ball or bat. So I think I agree with, with what Ryan said. I think it's important that if England have a chance in this series, somehow, some way, Ben Stokes has to feature in most of these test matches. Now whether his body will allow him to do that, knowing Stokesie personally, knowing that he's someone that goes at 110 miles an hour, everything he does, time will tell, plus the body's getting older. You have to accept certain things as well. He's not in the first flush of youth, so it's going to have to be well managed. But we definitely need Ben Stokes to have a big series.

Ali, I think also Ali, I think with Ben Stokes as well, it's his leadership as well. You know, Ryan was then talking about his work ethic and everything. And when you set foot in Australia, I mean, they've already started, you know what I mean? Or did we shake the Indian's hands and everything like that about the test matches? And they're all talking about it. You know, these guys have got to realize that when they step off of that plane, you know, it's not going to be like any other series. It's as simple as that. You know, the press will be on them. They've got to be psychologically right up for it as well and tough and hardened and ready to go into this series. And I think that someone like a Ben Stokes going out there with the cap on, with the Blazer on, tossing up, it's going to mean a lot to some of these guys who, you know, haven't played an Ashes series. They're all, they're all vastly experienced cricketers now in all formats. But there's something a little bit special about the Ashes. When you walk out there, you want to have your fellow who's tossing up has to have the respect of the other side. And I think that's what Ben Stokes gives to this England side.

Yeah, he Gets people to puff their chests out, doesn't he Stefan? What about some of the other players in the side? I mean we've mentioned Mark Wood and that's great to hear that he's likely to feature for, for Durham to get some Red Bull cricket because he tried to come back a little earlier in the season and then the knee swelled up again. He was hoping to feature in the India Test series but particularly when I think of the, you know, the batters, even some tiredness, Jamie Smith, Ben Duckett, you know, have now been given a bit of a break from the T20s with Brendan McCollum recognising they just need a rest and a bit of a reset. So yeah, there's out and out injuries but there's also just that element of fatigue as well that England need to get over before they then get on another plane.

Yeah, it's a real jigsaw actually for England to make sure that every member of a squad arrives for that first Test in Perth on November 21 in the best possible shape. And you've alluded to it with the bowlers in terms of their fitness. The batters is a slightly different one because as you quite rightly say, Ali there, there are batters that haven't stopped since the middle of June playing that India Test series into the hundred, playing some white ball stuff. Now England have identified that some of them need a break, you know, the likes of Ben Duckett and Jamie Smith. I noticed that Ollie Pope was playing for Surrey in the County Championship today. Zach Crawley wasn't playing for Kent. We've got this curious situation now where someone like Joe Root for example or Harry Brook, they're only going to play white ball cricket between now and that only warm up game in Perth. And I'm sure we're going to discuss that a lot, not just this evening but over the next couple of months as well. That one warm up game that England are playing and for the, for the likes of, of Root and Brook and a number of others, it will only be white ball cricket. Since the last Test against India at the Oval which ended in August, up to that one warm up game in Perth, they'll only be on a diet of white ball. Because after this, after England finish the T20s against South Africa, there's those three games in Ireland and then they go and play three T20s and three one dayas in New Zealand and it will be how England can get the right amount of Red Bull into their batters. There'll be lots of people from the old school who are saying that you've got to be playing however number of state games to be ready for a first Ashes test, to go all over Australia to play to get the Red Bull cricket in the batters rhythm if you will. But that is just not the way that this England team do it. They haven't done it under McCollum and Stokes. They don't really see the, the value in playing days and days of warm up cricket. And it's worked for them actually. They've won the first test of the last six series that they've played. England's problem has actually been finishing strong because they've lost five of the last tests in those six series. But like Ryan said, those first two test matches, firstly in Perth and then in Brisbane, that is where ball is probably going to dominate bat. If England's batters aren't ready for Stark, Cummins, Hazelwood then they really could come unstuck.

And that leads us to the question of exactly who those top six batters will be. And in particular should we talk about Jacob Bethel because he hit his first century in his professional career in Southampton yesterday in that final ODI against South Africa. I mean what a, what a change in fortunes for the England team to get that mammoth victory. But 110 off 82 balls. 100 came off 76 balls and I think he went from 50 to 100 in what, 28 deliveries as well. Michael Carberry, I mean carbs, you know what it's like to bat in Australia in the Ashes. First of all, what was your reaction to Bethel finally sort of getting that 100 under his belt? Has he answered the questions about all the expectation that has been placed on him?

With him I'm going to be controversial and say look for me I still think look he's a very good talent and I think I've went from the time I saw him last year in 100. I like what I saw. There's, there's plenty to like. He picks up length very well. I think it all shapes up very well. The bit that concerned me was the lack of. He hadn't had professional hundred before yesterday. There was motions to almost felt like there was a, this rush to get him in. When I feel it's a little bit before his time. He's still got to show that ability to be able to dominate at the level below. I didn't see the immediate rush to get him in. I also look at other players around the circuit who have been scoring runs as well and I think it's, it's More the messaging that it puts out to me that I was a little bit uncomfortable with when, you know, he was made captain for this upcoming T20 series. And I thought, well, hang on a minute. I mean, he hasn't got a professional 100. I mean, that's, That's. And he's not in great form either, so.

He's got that hundred now.

He's got that 100 now. And, yeah, look great. Well, well done to the kid, you know, well done to him. But that's only one score, and one score doesn't make a career, and it doesn't make, you know, it doesn't make a trend. So, you know, I'd need to see some consistency. But, look, obviously, whether I agree with it or not, the England hierarchy obviously want him in. And I think the important thing is with someone like that, you've got to stick with him, you know, you. You can't then drop him after a bad run, you know, So I think that's. It's. How. How that's managed, I think is important, really. It was a. It was a good knot to watch. I mean, look, South Africa, he took advantage. I think South Africa were well off. Off the pace yesterday. It looked like they were a little bit going through the motions. But that. Look, that's not his fault.

Not everyone's got a big hundred.

Yeah, absolutely. He's got. You've got to take advantage of, you know, international runs are hard to come by, so you got to take those opportunities. But it was. Yeah, it was an impressive knock, for sure.

Toughers. Does that knock catapult him? Well, you tell me. How far do you think that has catapulted him up to the line in terms of the Ashes squad? But there's the Ashes 11, and we're back to the sort of Bethel Pope question, aren't we?

Well, we are. We're coming back to that question again, I think. Listen, for a start off. Great, well done. Good knock. I sort of, you know, echo the sentiments. There are carbs a little bit. One knock doesn't make anything and what have you. But we kind of know that he's been this talent. Does he slot in straight away at number three because of that innings? I don't think he does. I think that he goes there now with that confidence. Criker. Did you see his. His face? You could see that it was. The weight had sort of gone off his shoulders. You know what I mean? You could see the smile. And he was absolutely delighted to get that off his back, so to speak. But I think that Ollie Pope will stay at number three. And I think that that will be for the. For the sort of sake of consistency, and I think that that's fair enough. You know, I think that Ollie Pope, as you said, usually starts very well on tours and in home series as well. It's just whether he can then keep that going throughout the series. And if he can't keep it going, well, you've got a guy there who's then coming off the back of this hundred and what have you. Listen, it's a completely different, different kind of game, but we all know he's a talent and what have you. But I think for me, Pope starts at three.

Stefan, what do you reckon Brendan McCollum is thinking? Because we've also got this scenario, haven't we, where Bethel will be playing. You expect, in the white ball series in New Zealand, Pope will finish his county championship season. Is it better to be playing where you can score runs, but you could also get out for a duck? Or is it better just to sort of be sitting tight and waiting for that, get on the tour and see what happens then?

Yesterday was really interesting, actually, because Jacob Bethel started by giving an interview with TV where he said, you know what, actually, I probably should have played some more cricket this summer. And he ended it with his first professional century. I just wonder if England will look back on this summer and the way that they've handled Jacob Bethel as a real missed opportunity. The reason I say that is because we don't know a great deal more about him now than we did in April, in that we know he's really, really talented and we know he's probably going to have a really bright future ahead of him. But what we don't know for definite is if whether he is or not a better option than Ollie Pope as England's number three. And England haven't really taken any great strides to try and answer that question because he just hasn't played enough red ball cricket since the end of that New Zealand series when he made such a fantastic impression. He's played two first class matches and one of those was the fifth test at the oval when he looked all at sea because he hadn't been batting a great deal in the middle. The other point is we know about as much about Ollie Pope as we did at the beginning of the summer. His career average is 35. He averaged 34 in the series against India. Like Tougher said, he started with a brilliant century one that helped them win the test match at Headingley, and he Tailed off from there. So England's problem, they haven't taken enough steps to get enough information about Jacob Bethel to know whether for not for definite, he should be the man at number three in Perth. And I guess there's going to be a little bit of soul search between now and that first Test between Brendan McCollum and Ben Stokes. For example, this Ashes series starts off exactly the same way as the last Ashes series did, with Rory Burns getting bowled by Mitchell Stark from the ball of the series. Let's say there's a repeat of that.

A lot of people are saying, but who.

Who would England want walking out at N for one with the second ball of the series? Who would be their best option? And that is what they've got to answer between now and November 21st.

Ryan, I'm intrigued on your take around the Bethel situation, both as a county coach and as an Australian, so if you could perhaps give us two answers, that would be very helpful.

So, straight away, England, the regime, rightly or wrongly, no matter what you think about them, they've been fiercely loyal to their top six or seven batters. Fiercely loyal. And that's what they're going to do. They're going to play those seven guys. Should Jacob Bethel have played more cricket this summer? Absolutely. You know, today Will Rhodes, for instance, who's a very good county player, missed out on our first 11. We sent him to Glamorgan in an Uber to get to our second team game by mid afternoon because he needs to bat. Because if he is our next batter, he's 107, he made 108. But we have to give him the opportunity to play. You know, there's no point me just having throwdowns with him at, you know, Chelmsford before and after the game. If he wants to put his name forward, he has to make runs. And it's the same, I think, with bowlers as well. We see every bowler bowling to a mitt before or after the games. But like, they don't field, so they don't have the fatigue of three hours in the field and then going and bowling and stuff. And they're not learning about how to get people out because, you know, we found out on Friday night in our quarterfinal, Jimmy Neesham had been in New Zealand, flew out for the game, but had literally just been bowling to a cone. And like he said, lyn isn't a cone. He kept coming.

So, Ryan, if I was to say, who would the Australians rather see walk out at number three for England, they won't care.

Honestly, they won't care. They know that the top seven of England are set in stone and Jacob Bethel is the next one. So unless it's injury or really poor form in the first two or three tests, you're going to have the same seven. You can argue all you want about it, but like I say, fiercely loyal to those seven batters. Even to the point where I think Ollie Pope played as a wicketkeeper to make sure that he was still in, you know, the top seven. You know, rightly or wrongly, you're going to live and die in an Ashes series by the decisions you've made. And, you know, we were all pulling our hair out about Crawley. Let's be honest, his record for a while there was just ridiculously bad. But they stayed loyal and he came good and had a pretty good, you know, Indian series, so. And again had to play in Australia. Plays the short ball well, that's where they wanted him to be. So, yeah, I don't think it's much of a discussion, to be honest. They'll be very comfortable with where they're at. Jacob, as a young player needs to keep knocking down the door with every opportunity he gets. And, you know, is the captaincy too early? Maybe, but Graham Smith seemed to work it out when he was 20, 21 for South Africa, so let the kid play. But he's got to play.

Ryan, can you see a scenario where England don't play the spinner?

Perth, Perth and Brisbane. I have no doubt they'll think about it because they get caught up. And I'll be honest, when you guys are going to talk about all the. The bowlers and the six fast bowlers and all that. The biggest battle of the whole Ashes is not about the fast bowlers. You can bowl 100 miles an hour. Doesn't matter. Good players play pace for fun. Unless you can swing it or do it. The actual battleground is spinner versus spinner, Lyon versus Bashir. That is where the Ashes are going to be won or lost because Bashir is going to have to bowl well in Australia because they're coming at him and if he can't, that's where toughers. I agree that, you know, Perth or Brisbane, they may play four quicks.

Yeah, we know. I've got to say goodbye to Stefan at this point. Stefan Shemon, our chief cricket reporter, thank you very much for being with us tonight. We'll hear plenty more from Stefan in the coming weeks in our 74 day build up to the first Ashes Test match.

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BBC Radio 5 live spinners then who should England be taking on the plane alongside Bashir?

Well, yeah, I mean Liam Dawson had that. I don't know. I was up at Old Trafford doing the commentary and I've never seen someone bowl himself on the plane in the first innings and then kind of bowl himself off the plane in the second innings. Listen, it was an absolute slab of a pitch, did absolutely nothing. I was a little bit disappointed with the way he bowled in the second innings. Even if he, you know, just tried to bowl it. Show a bit more craft outside the left handers off stump and you know, a little bit more flight and guile and use his, his sort of trick, so to speak. Listen, he batted well, he looked like a proper player with the bat and so I just don't know whether they're going to go with Rayan Ahmed with that leggy. Listen, leggies genuinely sort of do better than finger spinners, I think, apart from the likes of Nathan Line in Australia. So it is going to be a toss up. I don't think Dawson's out in the picture, you know, I really don't. I do still think that he's got a chance of getting on that plane. Ray and Armitage has what I think he's had five or six, six tons, isn't he? In first class cricket this season? So his ability, four centuries, different kind of player, sort of, you know, he's a bit of a dasher and likes to get on with it and what have you and then also has those tricks. So listen, show it's going to be going there and I agree with Ryan, it is going to be and it's quite a tough place for a young inexperienced bowler learning his craft. You know, he hasn't played that many, even though he's done pretty well when he has played. But to go to Australia, they will just be looking to take him down from ball one and then just put the pressures on the Seamen seamers to have to rotate. So he's going to be after up for the challenge. And if that then challenge isn't sort of overcome, what then you throw in a Ray and Ahmed who could also sort of go around the park a bit, you know what I mean? So you might perhaps want to have a bit of a steady Eddie who can just go up there, hold the end and try and, you know, rotate seam as well. So, yeah, it's going to be a little bit of a head scratcher for him. I'm slightly, I'd be slightly tempted to go a little bit on the negative side and stay in the game and just get. And get Dawson over there done it, you know, all around the world, different franchises and what have you. Hampshire as well has been a. Has been a good performer, but it wouldn't surprise me if they throw Rayan in there. So there you go. Really answered your question there.

You've given us options, toughers. You've given us options. The Aussies do like having some. Somebody to target though, which brings me carbs to the openers.

Yeah.

And also just what. And you alluded to it earlier, what the England team will expect when they get off the plane in terms of the media attention, the hype, the niggle, the. The aggro, the. The talkback shows, the newspaper headlines.

Part of the welcome, it's all part of the fun.

It's the big welcoming committee. But opening the batting, you did it in 2013. 14. What do Duckett and Crawley need to do to survive, to counter, to then thrive on those Australian pitches against their attack?

I mean, I suppose it's Difficult to compare how I went about it compared to the more modern way Duckett and Crawley. I think I don't really see Ducky and Crawley doing anything differently to what we've seen so far where I think they're going to take the aggressive hand. They're both players that, you know, I was brought up in an era of, you know, trying to leave the ball well and, and pick the bowlers off and wear them down and, and then eventually you try and take them down. But obviously this modern crop of players play very differently. Someone like Zach Crawley, I, I don't think it's in his DNA really to try and leave balls. I think he's going to go on the aggressive duck. It's similar. Doesn't leave many, doesn't leave any. You know, he'll be looking to put them under pressure. Really what you can expect from Australia, I think they're going to be uber patient. You know, they've got arguably one of the best pace attacks going around the world. They know their conditions. I think Starks come in, Hazelwood Boland, they're going to sit in, talk about.

The bowling attack in a minute, particularly.

Around, I think they're going to look to sit in, you know, Australian bowlers. Look, my experiences, there's a lot of talk up of the pace and what they're gonna, you know, trying to hit you in the head and all this stuff. But actually, to be honest with you, I think they're very good at just holding line and length and that's all you have to do in Australia. You hold line and length and we saw it in the series I played in. Yes, Mitch was there to do what Mitch does, which was to try and, you know, rough you up and stuff like that. But if you look at Harry Siddel Watson line, they just dialed in for two and over, they just ran in and tried to hit top of off stump and just through sheer us going nowhere, they picked up those wickets. So then it made it easier to then come in and bring Mitch on for those little 4 over, 5 over blasts which most of the time he ended up taking more wickets.

I'll tell you what you can expect. Telly.

Yeah.

Do you know the fact, you know the customs fella who opens your cricket case and looks at your boots to make sure you haven't brought any sort of bits of mud in it? I got sledged by him and that was in the customs hall. I'd only been in Australia.

You hadn't gone through passport control.

I hadn't gone through Passport control. So listen, you know, these guys have got to be ready and I hope that they've got. I hope. Listen, it's just a. I can't sort of quite get it across. It is a different animal over there. It really is. I mean, you're playing in, you know, the grounds, the crowds, everyone. The bloke who opens the door for you as you walk back to your hotel, you know, you really know that you're in something a little bit special. So I just hope, and we go back, I just go back a little bit to the likes then of Ahmed and Bashir, that these guys have got a. I hope these guys have had a little chat by the backroom staff that, you know, this just won't be another game of cricket for you. You know what I mean? It is a different animal over in Australia. It really is.

Every moment you step outside your hotel, every time you walk through an airport arrivals hall, Ryan, there's a certain welcoming committee, isn't there?

I sledge my son because he barracks for England. I barrack for Australia. It's on in the front room of our house. So, yeah, look, it's all in good humor. The actual, the, the respect is there, don't get me wrong. Like, it'll always be there. But when you cross that line, yeah, they're big boys, they're going to go hard at it. And yeah, I. Look, it's going to be a really good series. Those fast bowlers Australia have, like Carv says, they bowl fast but they're skillful because they swing the ball or they nip the ball and, you know, we're brought up learning we need to bowl in the corridor, off stump, maybe fourth stump, and we sit in there. Whereas England, I've noticed we want, Well, I say we, as in Durham and county things, you want to bring the stumps in play more. So it's a big difference to actually go to Australia and attack the stumps because then you can get hurt left, right and center. Whereas Australians will probably just try and stick into that corridor until it's about day four or five. And then when the wickets start going up and down, then they start going straighter and straighter and trying to hit the stump. So, yeah, look, Australia are going to come at it and they're going to be skillful. England's batting is going to have to stand up. But again, and I'm sure you'll be asking these questions too, Australia got more questions about their batting than, than their bowling. That's the, that's the fact I want.

To fit all of this in in the next 15 minutes, so I'm sorry.

If I've snuck in there.

Not. Not at all. Let's talk about the Australian bowling first of all then, because, you know, we've talked about the injuries around the. The England camp and the fitness, trying to get Mark Woodfit, etc, but the Aussies biggest concern going into the Ashes is the fitness of their captain. Pat Cummins fears that a back problem could see him miss the first Test. But speaking to the ABC last week, he didn't seem to be too concerned.

Yeah, not too bad.

Yeah, it's kind of a little bit tight and sore after the West Indies tour. Yeah, it's settling down now, but need to give it a bit more time. So. So still got a fair while to the Ashes, so pretty confident I'll be right for that. But at the moment, yeah, cool in the heels.

So, first Test, confident you'll be there?

Yeah, I mean, still a fair bit.

Of water going to the bridge, but.

Yeah, kind of we're all building a plan to be right for that first test and hopefully play as much of it as can.

So, Ryan, it's a level of lumbar stress he's feeling, but. Yeah. What do you make of the situation as we hear it there from Pat himself?

There was a few ums and ahs there, that's for sure. He was trying to say the right words. Look, of course he's the captain, he's got any fast bowler. If he's got something going on with their back, it's not a good thing. We, we know that. But, you know, let's be honest, they, they have all the technology now. They'll do, they'll leave no stone unturned. And, you know, I don't know Pat Cummins personally, but everything that everyone says to me, again, he's one of those hard workers. He will not leave a stone unturned to make sure he's fit and ready to go. And, you know, the end of the day, if he's not up and ready, well, then you have to face Scott Boland, who's pretty good as well. So, you know, they've got some options there. And look, there's no doubt, you know, I'm being a little bit cocky here, but there's no doubt Australian cricket is about to go through a massive change. We all know that. You know, the four, the fast bowlers, Lion, Smith, there's going to be a massive change, but they're making sure that if they're going out they're going out winners and that's the biggest Test for England. England may win the next series and the series after that. But right now in Australia, those guys who are just coming to the end, I'm telling you, they're not going to want to lose. And that's scary.

I think you've got Nathan line who's turning 38 the day before the Perth Test match. And he was so devastated, wasn't he, to get that calf injury in the last Ashes in England. He for one is so desperate to, to play a full part in a, in a winning Ashes again. What do you think, Michael, his if Cummins doesn't make the first Test match in terms of his leadership and the bowling attack, the impact that it would have?

Yeah, I think it's going to have a huge impact. I mean, one you're missing a world class, world class bowler. And I think Pat Cummings way of captaincy I think is since he's come in, he's had a very calming effect on the group. I think he, he looks as though from an outsider looking in the kind of captain that he's able to galvanize his players quite well. I think he's well respected. He, he has a, a sort of manner where he can put his point across without upsetting too many people, but firm enough. I think he gets a good balance there. He's not, he's quite an unflappable sort of character. So, yeah, undoubtedly when you're, when you're talisman, your captain, you say the same thing about Ben Stokes. When someone like that is taken out of your team through injury, the feeling, if nothing else feels different. You, you feel like you're missing your right arm, don't you? And, and in a, in a series like the Ashes, that's quite a big thing. I think it's, you want to go there looking around the dress room to a man that, you know, we're ready guys, we're gonna, we're gonna go out there and have a, have a good dust up. So when your captain is taken out of that, I think it's gonna have a bit of an effect. But I mean there's still some, some good leaders in that group. But you know, you, you. I think any team would want Pat Cummins on the field.

Yeah, toughers. If you sort of compare Stokes and Cummins, if neither of them were fit for that first Test, which team do you think it would affect the most? I mean, the Aussies have this bloke called Steve Smith who's captained a Little bit in his time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think it would affect England most. I think that. I think that if Pat Cammers doesn't play the first Test match, I think it'll be a huge fit in for. For England. Scott Boland, fantastic bowler, but from what I remember, you know, got a little bit of stick when he came over here. England sort of like didn't see him as. As, you know, the bowler that a Pat Cummings is. It's as simple as that. And it is going to be difficult for him. Ryan was saying there, you know, if you've got these stress fractures in your back and you're running in a bowl and you, you know, you're all right walking around and you're all right picking up the kids and you're all right going to the shops, you know what I mean? But to have that in the back of your mind when you're bowling, it is a worry. It's as simple as that, that you know that something as you run in, it's going to hurt, you know, it's going to. It's going to do. It's going to do you some damage. So I think that it would really help England. But if Ben. Ben Stokes, as Ryan said, is so crucial to this England side, bat, bowl, field captaincy, he is the whole package for this England side and he'll. And he drags them through. You know, I keep going on about show IB as well. Different kind of bowler. When Ben Stokes is captain in him, it's similar. You know, you look at when he bowls under the captaincy of Ben Stokes, it just brings out a different. A different bowler from him. So in answer to your question, yeah, England need Ben Stokes fit and firing from ball one to get into this Ashes series.

And it would also make the Bethel question interesting, wouldn't it? Because if Stokes doesn't play, surely you need your vice captain there to step up to captain Sophie, then Pope is in anyway.

That's.

That's something we might circle back to in. In weeks to come. What about the batting then, Ron? You mentioned that Josh Hazelwood in fact called England's batting lineup quotes unbelievable recently, which was very generous of him. And it makes me slightly suspicious when an Aussie is praising England. But you can't say the same about the Aussie batting lineup anymore, can you?

Well, you can once you get past the first three. The rest are really good. But in saying quite a lot, though, the first three. Right. I say that in jest because I honestly think Cameron Green is an amazing cricketer and I think that, you know, once he starts bowling again, he adds another dimension to Australia. Has he ever batted three? Well, probably not, but again, back in his own conditions is probably a better fit for him. So if he's going to be one. Look, I just felt since Warner's gone, we've lost mojo at the top of the order and I'm going to throw one out here that I would go with Josh Inglis, who bats down the order but has opened in T20 cricket. He's opened as a youngster. I was lucky enough he was from my club, so I saw him as a 14, 15 year old and I know he's from England, but anyway, he speaks a pretty good Aussie now, but he attacks and I think when Australia play well, we attack as well as not just defend. And I think Khawaja and Labrador got a bit bogged down and they were never going anywhere. So I would take a bit of a gamble. If you're going to take a gamble on someone. Here's a kid who's played lots of international cricket. Yes, he's batted a bit down the order, but mate, he's got a beautiful technique and he can whack it. And so for me, I would go left field. I'm going. I'd go with him every day of the week and that changes Australia. Then if you start taking the attack back to England, could I just quickly.

Ryan. There's another name I'll throw in which I quite like the look of him, but very similar, different player to Josh English, who I've played with as well. And he's a very good player. I agree with you there. But what's your thoughts on someone like McSweeney? Do you think he was a little bit hard done by? Do you think he's got a future?

Yeah, look, I think he was extremely harshly done by.

He.

He had never opened the batting anywhere before and, you know, and the first time he's ever had to open was in international cricket in his first test match. So that's a hard ass. You know, I think McSweeney will be seen again, but probably down the order like when Smith goes or someone like that. I think you're going to see a McSweeney again. I think they're talking about Jake Weatherall as a possibility. I know that Marcus Harris has also been sort of spoken to that he's back in the frame. So there's a couple of the, I guess the stalwarts of Sheffield Shield cricket, you know, being renamed as maybe a possible Partner. I honestly think Khawaja's almost done and probably should have been done a couple of years ago, but that's just me being.

He'll continue through this series.

Yeah, he'll continue through the series, but I would have blooded a youngster a little bit a while ago to get him ready for the Ashes. But I think Australia, again, have painted themselves into a corner that they have to play Kawaja and they, you know, they have to find him a partner.

That you're replacing Sam Constance after he had such an unbelievable, explosive start to his dance career.

The hype is absolute rubbish. The fact that that kid has no idea what he's doing at the minute. If you watched his 2002 in Sheffield Shield Cricket, he did not bat like he batted in that test match. He batted beautifully. That's the Sam Consis that they need back playing. I'm not sure he quite knows where he's at because he's only 19. He hasn't worked it out yet, which is fine. He'll be back. Don't get me wrong. He will be back, but I'm not sure he's back for the Ashes.

Yeah, it was explosive, wasn't. He was ramping. Bumrah hit him out of the attack. A shoulder bump from Kohli. Everything happened in that Boxing Day toughers. Is this as vulnerable a top order as Australia fielded for a while in the Ashes?

Well, it's, It's. It certainly doesn't strike me like the. The batting lineups that I was coming up against, that's for sure. And it does start with the openers. It's as simple as that. All great sides over the. Over the years have had that solid opening partnership with a number three who's probably one of the, you know, one, if not the best player in the side. That's why. I mean, it might sound a bit old school, but, yeah, it starts with that opening partnership. And if England can sort of. And. And get sort of like, not the wood over that. Yeah, yeah, get the wood over that opening partnership and half make a difference. And then you've got the likes ahead and all these guys, fantastic players and they've got, you know, Green, Bo Webster and all these kind of guys. They're not the Pontings, they're not the Wars. And I know I'm just going back a little time here, but I think England will think that there is a little bit of a chance, there's a little chink in that armor that they can get through it. It that. I don't think Smith's playing perhaps you know, as well as he used to all those years ago and things like that. So all these things will be going through the mind and I think England will go right. If we can get out there we can get couple of early wickets on these fast, bouncy perhaps wickets that do a little bit more than they used to. I think they're a little bit greener now, aren't they Ryan over in Australia for sure and they just seem around a little bit. If England can get on a bit of a roll and start knocking out, you know, 1, 2, 3 and 4, I, I think that they will see that as you know, such a, not a soft underbelly, I'm not saying that, but just that chink in the armor that they can exploit. So for sure, I think that this is a slightly vulnerable Australian bayone lineup.

Michael, do you think, I mean Ryan's talking about going left field. Is, isn't Ashes the time for Australia to go left field? It feels almost quite un Australian. They've usually been so settled.

Yeah, well I think, I think he's right. I mean I think they've had problems for a number of years since David Warner's retired. Steve Smith again is one of those players coming to the end of his career and there just doesn't appear to be those players of yesteryear, you know, the likes of Stuart Laws and you know, Damian Martins and these guys who were averaging 50 in first class cricket and you know, almost ready made test players, they just don't seem to. Why that is, I'm not aware but you know, they don't seem to be able to call on those guys. So it is a little bit of kind of sifting through what you, it feels like sifting through a little bit what you have and trying to make pieces fit. As I said, I mean just listening to him and talk about Nathan McSweeney, I mean I, I, you know, quite liked what I saw but I wasn't aware that he'd never really opened. I mean that's quite a tough gig to throw someone in against the likes of Bum.

You sort of won a bit of a bat off in against India, Ray in the lead.

Absolutely, yeah. I mean, you know to throw him in against Siraj and Bumrah, I mean that's, that's a, that's a tough gig. So yeah, I think again if, if England we were talking, you know, I had my own left field picks for England but you know there's.

Oh yeah. Which I was. Well we've got about two And a half minutes left.

Yeah. To answer the question, yeah, I think I agree with toughers. I think that England, if England. England can start well with the ball and control that scoreboard. For me, I think you want to get the likes of Head, Smith, Carey in against that newer ball quickly.

Give me your left field pick for England.

So I've got. So for me, I was looking at how we won the Ashes in 2010 and we didn't do it necessarily with a pace barrage. It was thinking more along the lines of control and this gentleman. It's going to sound a little bit crazy. I was thinking something like the likes of David Willie, right. Gives us left arm variation and also creates rough for Bashir.

What a story that would be. Didn't make the 2019 World Cup. Raw's back in the Ashes. Any comment? Tough as well. I was going to come to you on really tough as just. Yeah, go on.

Yeah, well, the only trouble is that you make it a little bit of rough and there's going to be a massive hole because Mitchell Starks out there as well and Nathan Lyon is going to be bowling one day end as well. But. No, I know what you mean. I know what you mean. Cubs. I, I think that there might be a bit of room for just a really. You're right. Skillful bowlers. And Ryan said it earlier on skillful seamers. I don't think you can just go in there and go bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. You've got to have a blend in you, in, in your seamers. You've got to. People swing it a little bit, as you say, like a pots or something. And I don't think Sam Cook might be out of it either. Just some guy who's gonna, you know, try and hit that front pad and just be consistent. But I mean this, these are all the decisions they have to do. The pitches have different since I played in Australia. They're nipping around. Look how India, you know, beat Aussie. You know what I mean? They did it with, with skill with the ball and getting, getting yourself to 300, 350. You don't have to get these big scores.

So 74 days out. What is the gut feel of each of you as to the way it could go? I'm going to give Ryan the, the, the pleasure of going last actually as the Australian see if he does a Glenn McGraw on us.

Michael, I'm gonna make Australia slight favorites. I'll, I'll go two, one.

Okay. Toughers.

Yeah.

I'm gonna make Aussie slight favorites, but England could nick it. I'm gonna go.

3, 2, 3, 2. Gone. Ryan.

3 1, Australia.

There we go. It started already. They haven't even, haven't even departed. Ryan, great to have you on the show tonight. Good you luck to for the rest of your championship match as well. And we'll be keeping an eye on how Matthew Potts does as well. Great to have you with us.

Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Toughers. Phil Tuffle, great to see you as well. Michael Carbery as well. See you very soon.

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