How New Zealand won the 2000 Women's World Cup

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You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Hello, this is Alison Mitchell with a special episode of the TMS podcast. We'll be looking back at the women's ODI World cup from the year 2000 with former New Zealand captain and member of the winning team. Debbie Hockley tells us how the White Fern's victorious journey unfolded and how lifting the trophy on home soil impacted women's cricket in the country.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Debbie Hockley it is the year 2000. We've all survived the mythical millennium bug. It's New Zealand's second time hosting the World cup after the 1982 event or sort of attention. First of all, did the tournament have in the country given your run to the final across the previous two World Cups?

Yeah, well, it was very exciting. You know, the tournament was towards the end of the year, so. And I think that it garnered a lot of attention throughout the country. Lots of people came down to Christ Christchurch to watch all the matches because they were all played in Christchurch. And also am I correct in thinking that crickinf. I think they were sponsored.

Yes.

And they were doing. But they were doing media and broadcast for the perhaps the first time.

So four Bible text, commentary, audio and video.

Yes. So fantastic. And also when it came to the final, I. I simply don't remember if Sky Television down here, they definitely broadcast the final. I don't recall whether they did the semi finals or not, but because the final was on the 23rd of December, there wasn't a lot of other sporting events that were being played in New Zealand. So that certainly garnered a lot of attention with it being live on telly. So I, you know, I hear lots of reports of people were at the pub and watching and you know, and so I think that especially once New Zealand made the final, I think that it garnered a lot of attention in the country.

Yeah. And BBC radio certainly had a reporter going around the matches as well. And you mentioned all the matches were played in Christchurch. We should flag. This was back to the eight team round robin event, although there were semi finals so the top four would go through to semis. So the eight teams were Australia, England, New Zealand, India, South Africa, Sri Lanka, Ireland and the Netherlands. What was it like first of all, having all the teams together because that's in stark contrast to the, the India World cup previously where travel was all over the place across numerous venues.

Yes, you could, you couldn't have a, you, you couldn't have a, a more opposite type of setup, could you? That. Yes, all, all the tournament was actually, I'm just remembering that we actually played the Netherlands at Hagley Park. So not all of the matches were played at Lincoln College where New Zealand Cricket's high performance center was, but all of the team stayed out there. So you know, we all ate in the. Cause it's a university there and of course it was university holiday so we, we all ate in the, you know, in the, in the university food hall. And so you certainly got to see players from other teams more readily than you would have done at other tour like say for example in India where sometimes you might not even see some of the other teams who weren't in your pool.

And what about sort of moving around each other and I guess having access to the facilities that were at the university Lincoln there that, that would have been very important, wouldn't it for that I guess the growing sort of professionalism of the game. But whilst you're not actually professional.

Yes, that's, that's correct. So you know, a really good indoor center as well as outdoor nets. So I can't, I can't remember how the distribution or timetabling worked for teams to be able to access those facilities. But certainly, you know, I know from the New Zealand point of view, I mean one of the advantages I guess of us hosting the tournament was that our team actually stayed in more kind of like flat, like accommodation. I suppose it was like there's three pavilions out at Lincoln College and our team and management were housed in those three pavilions, whereas the other teams were actually housed more in the the dormitory style accommodation, everyone still had single rooms but you know, kind of like a shared common room. So, so I just remember that, you know, we were, we were fortunate because we probably had maybe we had a bit more space than perhaps some of the other teams were, but certainly the facilities at Lincoln were, were terrific. Really good, really, really good pitches, which is the number one thing you want in any cricket tour.

Indeed. How much investment had been put in by the New Zealand Cricket Board to host this event?

Yes, a lot of support, especially in terms of personnel. And Catherine Campbell who played on our side had, she was, you know, she's worked for New Zealand cricket for many, many years and at that time had a, she was really, really integral for helping to arrange the whole tournament. So you know, we certainly, I, I don't know in terms of, but certainly in. We, we knew that the whole of New Zealand cricket was behind us and you know, we had a terrific group of coaching staff and management and it just made everything run really smoothly. So we, we really felt the backing of New Zealand cricket. Well, I'm not so old fashioned because it was 2000 and we still had video recording at that time, but one of the things I do remember doing was setting the video recorder, you know, like with actual, you know, VHS tape. VHS to record the final. And I managed to, to get a hold of those tapes after the final so that we could actually play it in the video recorder out at Lincoln the day after the final and relive some of those memories. So that's got nothing to do with Crick info, but that's just a, a different form. You know, it's so different compared to today, isn't it that you, you know, if you see a videotape, lots of people would say what, what is that?

Yes, quite. Well, the event coverage was, was quite remarkable with the streaming of the audio and video live ball by ball commentary of every match reports. A whole website was built dedicated to the World Cup. The commentary team was led by Ralph Della for online there. You had a team sponsor as well, didn't you for the White Ferns for that tournament?

Clear, Clear Communications was our, was our sponsor. So you know, we, we just had, you know, on all of our, on, on our shirts and, and on our tracksuits and things like that. So yes we did, we did have a team sponsor.

So the 1997 World cup, your captain there had been Maya Lewis. You'd captained ODIS for a spell in 1999 as well, hadn't you? But then Emily Drum was the captain for for this tournament, what was her leadership like for the team?

Really cool. I really. Because, you know, I think one of the. She was such a good player that I think, you know, if you want to talk about leading by example. Well, she was a, she was a really good person for leading by example. Quite a, quite a quiet person, I almost want to say. Slightly introverted, I'm thinking, compared to me, who's probably a bit more bolshy and mouthy, but had a really, really good deputy and Catherine Campbell as well. And I think that those two worked really well. And you know, occasionally, if I might have something to add within, you know, we might have a wee brains trust. But mostly Catherine and Emily just formed a really good team and just, you know, Drummy just got on quietly and led the team really well and, and, and led by example, not only with betting, but also, you know, with your fielding as well. Really.

You, of course, have always had this rivalry with Australia. It still continues, doesn't it? Australia, New Zealand. But the opening match, given that you'd lost to Australia in the final of the previous World cup, you're opening matches against the Aussies and you lose by six wickets, did you think, oh, no, not again?

Absolutely. Oh, yes, yes. You know, really, I think that was the opening game of the tournament, if I remember correctly.

Yeah.

So, yeah, really disappointing. A way to start the tournament. And, and it's just like, you know, it's like a bogey team. Although to be fair, you know, when we, when we had beaten them in the Rose bowl series and that was the, like the last time that I kept on the side and, and we, and we beat them, you know, that you can beat them, they're not, they're not unbeatable, but it was still disappointing way to start the tournament. But then you just have to, you know, you've still got another six games to play and then, you know, hopefully you're going to get to the semi final, so you just have to push past it and carry on. But yeah, disappointing.

Yeah. Is there a story behind what. Why didn't you continue the captaincy, Debbie, through to the World Cup?

Do you know, it was the, it was the third separate occasion that I had kept on the side because, you know, like I'd captain, the first time I kept him was 84 and then 85. And then Leslie Murdoch took over for a while and then I took it back on and after my, my, I think after, say, the World cup had a knee operation and so then I got asked if I wanted to do it And I thought, yep, I, I'll give it a crack because I always wanted to try and improve on things. I, I think I could have done a bit better. And so we played Australia in the series and won the first two matches in Palmerston north and, and won the Rose bowl bet. And the reason, I found it really stressful and, and it, it wasn't, I found it like I really enjoyed captaining the team but I found afterwards it really took it out of me and I just felt like it wasn't very good for my health. So I just decided that I, I didn't want to captain the side again because I, I felt that at the time, while I, you know, it's one of the proudest, proudest moments I have to say is especially that set, that Rose bowl series against Australia. But I didn't actually want to put myself through that again. So that's why I, that's why I declined carrying on any further.

Well, you managed to do pretty well with the bats. Do you. What do you recall then of the path to the final, that opening game against Australia? You've got these round robin matches. Any particular standout moments for you?

I think what stood out for me because again I was having a look through the, the matches just last night that we, we had good contributions from some different players including, including the four players who ended up not playing the final. Like we had 15 players in our squad and, and it was, it was lovely the fact that especially when we perhaps played some of the teams that we were hoping wouldn't give us such of a challenge. It was really nice for those players to be able to play and do well. And I think overall our bowling unit I just thought was absolutely sensational. I think it, you know, by that time we had established, you know, two or three years maybe of fairly consistent players and the bowling unit was very effective. And we also like, if I, if I recall correctly, Emily was in really good form at that tournament. Anna o' Leary who was opening, she had some really excellent scores and Rebecca Rolls who had been promoted to being an opener, had done well as well. So in, in all of those other matches, I think that different people stood up at different times, which was really pleasing. But I do remember like Anna and had scored quite a lot of runs in some of those other matches which, you know, you hope if you're getting towards semi finals that, that that's going to, you know, carry on.

Yeah, indeed. The semi final was against India, which turned out to be quite an emphatic victory. You went unbeaten like that. That first defeat to Australia was a mere blip in the opening, in the opening game after that you were unstoppable. Yeah, a nine wicket win. India 117 all out. And did it, did it feel then it was, it was a bit of a formality to chase those runs down?

I think so, yeah, it was it like to be honest, I mean look, when you're playing a semi final on a World cup, you just want to win. But if you, you also, it wouldn't have hurts to, it wouldn't have hurt to be able to have a bit more of a batting innings I suppose because you know that that's just generally that's what when you wins your matches, when you're scoring, you know, a lot more runs. So. But look it, it was emphatic in the fact that we just wanted to win the match and we, and we did that and you know, a couple of individuals had good scores and it got us through to the final which was the, you know, that's the, that's the first goal that you have in a tournament like that. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

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So the final is against the Aussies. You've lost the final of the previous two World Cups, including to Australia. You've lost in the opening game to the Aussies. You're up against them again. What's the approach? What was the mindset leading into it?

I think just, just having confidence in, in our own ability. But I think that I do recall that when we were in the changing room, you know, after we'd batted first and, and not scored as many runs as we'd wanted, there were. There were probably a few people who were thinking, oh no, not again. I think that would be fair to say that there were a few people like that. But, you know, the thing is that, you know, a few others of us were saying, look, we've got the runs on the board, let's just go out and defend it. And ultimately, you know, within two overs of our fielding innings, if I, if I recall correctly, again we had two of their best players on the side out. And so I think that when I look, I think probably that just the belief we had a. We had a terrific team and even to this day, you know, we could all get back into a room and just, you know, get on so well. And I think that we basically just did it for each other, as corny as that might sound. We were just such a tight unit and really, really, really wanted to, to play our best cricket for our mates that we've been on this journey with, including the four players who were on the sideline and everyone else. And, and once we got out onto the field, you know, our bowlers just kind of took over from, from where they had been in all of the other matches and backed up in the field and especially, you know, within those first couple of overs. Rebecca Rawls took good catch in the first over to get Lisa Kitely out. And then Helen Watson just had an inspired piece of fielding. Pick up and throw, got the absolute danger woman of Karen Rolf and run out. Direct hit, non strikers end poor. She was all on me and I tell you.

Well, if I can read extract from a report from the time the final was described as the best final ever. The quotes here. New Zealand and possibly world women's cricket has never seen a finer moment. This was the advertisement for the sport that marketeers give their right arms for. It had everything fine, tight bowling, belligerent, effective batting. Now it was being compared to sort of the best, you know, World Cup Final men's or women's that the game had seen because it did all come down to the final over you've mentioned, mentioned, you know, some of the great feats that, that happened there. And given that you were all out for 184, I'm sure at that point you, you worried that, that, you worried that that was not going to be a winning score.

Yes.

Catherine Rammel top, top scoring with 41. Yeah. And you mentioned those, those early wickets, Lisa Kitely and Karen Ralton out earlier. But then you've got Belinda Clark, the Australian captain, scoring 91.

Correct.

What were your memories over the course of that innings? Because knowing what she does and the quality of Belinda Clark, you know, she took that, what, to the 42nd over until she was dismissed. How worried were you at that point?

Well, as long as we keep getting the other people out, then, you know, you know, as long as you get, as long as you're getting someone out, we, you know, she was always going to be a threat because she was such an excellent batter. Such, you know, I, I loved watching her back. She was, you know, she was a pain to us, but I loved watching love watching good players bet. And then, you know, it was almost, I, I don't know what would have been going through her mind because, you know, every, it was such a topsy turvy game because every time they probably thought they were getting on top, we would then get a wicket and then it would come back in our favor. And I think that she must have been steering a little bit about how she was, you know, develop some good partnerships and get them over the line and, and then Claire Nicholson basically, Boulder, Boulder around the legs, if I recall correctly. She was probably trying to sweep very fine and got bold and yeah, like you say, out for 91. And at that point I think that we were, you know, we had more belief that we were if we could just hold on and, and do what we needed to do. But it was pretty nerve wrecking, I'll tell you.

Well, the, the extra bit of drama around that final over. So it comes to the final over. Five runs needed off six balls. And Emily Drum, your captain, thought initially that Claire Nicholson had bowled her allocation of overs.

That's right.

Do you remember that she was going to turn to Haiti Tiffin?

That's correct. That's correct. And I think that, I think Haiti probably had the ball on her hand and then I'm not quite sure who I, I just don't recall who came to realize that Claire hadn't actually bowled her 10 hours, whether someone checked with the umpire or whatever. But I tell you what, I think Haiti threw that ball back faster than you'd ever see. And Then Claire, Claire took it on and you know, I, I, I've repeated this so many times that you know, when someone is bowling and the, the, you know, the last over match and how many times do you hear people say that needs to be full and straight and so you're thinking, oh, full and straight, you know, they only need to get five runs and then, you know, what does she do? She actually, she actually started, almost started to run in and then we, we had another hold up because there was another change in the field and you know, and then you know, you're looking for the full and straight ball and what does she do? But she bowls it short and wide outside the off stump which, which to be fair, when you bowling to a number 11 better, it's probably more difficult to negotiate and yep, got the, got the edge and you know, caught behind, oh, amazing. Caught behind catch and it stuck and yeah, happy days. Yeah, it was like even, you know, you're right. I think it, I, I was wondering if any other women's World cup final had ever been, you know, like that close in terms of winning by four runs or whatever. And I don't think there is. And it's still, you know, like it's now 25 years but the, the emotions are still exactly the same as if you were, if you were there. I, I was feeling down at long on actually I was waiting to take the winning catch. Didn't get the opportunity. But I remember, you know, it had been a long time. Like that was my fifth World cup and you know, some of us had been and that was our third World cup final in a row. And I just walked in and I just sat down on the ground and probably had a few tears and just said thank goodness that it was the feeling, the sense of, you can't, I just can't describe the sense of relief. It was just, yeah, incredible. And also knowing like, I definitely knew that that was going to be my last game for New Zealand. I knew that my really good mate Catherine Campbell, that was going to be her last game and as it happened, Katrina Keenan, that was her last game and Claire Nicholson's as well. So, you know, bit of a end of an era and yeah, the sense of relief was just enormous. But joy, it was very cool.

And who was also there to share in that joy with you? Because we all know that for all of you cricketers there is a, you know, a personal backroom team, there is family, there is friends, there are old coaches, there are school teachers.

Like, yeah, just, yeah, yeah. So my Partner Helen, at the time, she was there. But as well as that, that probably my mum and dad were both there. And I was actually really thrilled that my mother had seen us win a World cup because when we, when we made the final In England in 1993, her triplet brothers flew her over just for the final. And so she turned up just for the final. It was the only game we lost. So I secretly always thought that she might have been a little bit of a bad luck charm. So I never thought, I never told her that, but I was. I was so thrilled that we actually managed to win a World cup final when she attended. So, yeah, it was, it was, yeah, happy scenes at the end.

Not.

Not the stuff that you'd see now because, you know, we played at the Bert Sutcliff Oval and there were, you know, that was before the times where we had lots of. Lots and lots of security. So when, you know, when, when that final catch was taken, instantly the ground was just swarmed with our supporters.

Invasion.

Yeah, the team was the team. Our team was standing in a huddle on the pitch, in the middle, but just surrounded by family and friends. I think Emily Drum's brother lifted her up onto her shoulders and carried her off the field. So, you know, those are all the sorts of memories that. They're just a bit different from what happens now when you don't have that same type of. Yeah, it was. Yeah, it was so cool.

Emily Drum, your captain, it turned out she had played the whole tournament with a broken finger. It had been broken by Catherine Fitzpatrick in the opening game.

Yeah, she's gutsy. Like, really, really, really gutsy player. Yeah, yeah, just one of the, Just one of our best bettors ever. And it was just, you know, what, what a thrill for her to be able to hold that trophy up. Yeah.

And then, much like you in the previous World cup where you're on the losing side at Player of the Match, Belinda Clark was given player of the match on the losing side. So you have a bit of empathy with how she must have felt.

Absolutely. Yeah. It's like, it's, it's horrible, actually, because it's just. Yeah, like your, your. Your phrase of bittersweet is just the, the, the. Because look, when you, when you play and you're, you're playing in a World cup final, when you lose, it doesn't, you know, nothing's a consolation, if that makes sense. Yeah.

So what was the legacy, do you think, from that World Cup? What, what happened afterwards? Did you get a sense of an impact that your victory made on. On women's cricket in the country? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, the, the lovely thing was that on Boxing Day, I think it was, there was a test match up at the Basin Reserve in Wellington and, and we all got FL. And like, at lunchtime, got to parade around with the World cup and, you know, had a lovely reception from the. The crowd, which was, which was really, really special for us. And I think, you know, we'd been. We'd been trying to win that World cup for a long time. So I think it just really raised the profile within New Zealand further of women's cricket and just inspired a lot of young girls and young boys to take up the game and just keep really interested in how we were going from there.

Did you feel it was a sort of step in the right direction in terms of, you know, where the game has. Has got to now? I mean, New Zealand has not really kept up the pace in terms of the professionalism of, say, the Australia domestic setup, the England domestic setup. But can you still see that that was a significant milestone in terms of raising that profile and, and, and ensuring that more people and the right people took note?

Oh, yes, absolutely. Yeah. I think that, you know, there was a lot of investment in that tournament and I think that, you know, I'd like to think that we helped to repay that. And, and I think, you know, in the intervening 25 years, there's been, you know, great strides made and, and, you know, look, we were, I think we were, you know, we were really grateful that when New Zealand cricket and New Zealand Women's Cricket Council amalgamated, I think it was back in about 93 things, you know, things really improved for us as the New Zealand women's cricket team since that time. And I think after 2000, yeah, it just kept paving the way for improvements and, and not only for us, actually. Interesting. I'm just thinking, because we are talking about New Zealand, but someone like England, for example, who didn't make the semi final, there was a pivotal point for England then, investing a lot more and thinking, gosh, we're a bit behind the eight ball here and look at how they've gone as well. So even though New Zealand, even though our legacy of that team was for inspiration of people going forward, it just shows the benefit to me of having World cup tournaments for, for all different teams and, and, and how you can make improvements and go forward.

And you went on to become the first female president of New Zealand cricket as well. That must have been very proud time for you as well. All Those years later, yeah, it was.

I, I love New Zealand cricket. They are so, you know, they're just, I just, I really admire them and respect them. They're so forward thinking, you know. First, I think I was actually the first female president of any national, you know, cricketing organization in the world. And, and I was so shocked. Stephen Bach and Richard Hadley, I think might have put their heads together and thought that I might have been a reasonable person for it. And I was so shocked. But it was, it was such an excellent experience. So, gosh, I did. You know, since I've, since I finished playing Ellie, I reckon that I've had just about or apart from the World Cup. Nothing could be better than that. But I've had so many fabulous opportunities and things that have happened, you know, whether it's been, you know, with your president or, you know, having commentating opportunities. So I'm just a, I'm just a, I'm a lucky girl. That's the way I view it.

And did you share the same sense of pride when the New Zealand women finally won a World cup trophy again with the T20 World cup just last year?

I absolutely did. And, you know, I looked at people like Susie Bates and Sophie Devine and Leah to who. And it reminded me of people like me and Catherine and Emily. When you've played for a long time and, and when you play for a long time and you have that desire to, to try and win the, you know, the, the pinnacle events, which are World Cups, I mean, we didn't, we didn't play T20, so we didn't have that World cup to play for. But when you've tried and tried and tried and you finally get there, you just think, I know how that feels. And that's a lot. That was such a lovely thing to be able to say when I saw, you know, the three of them giving each other a hug, but the whole team, you just, you can, you can, you know, you're one of the, the other 15 people who can say, I really know how that feels and good on you.

Special, special times. Debbie Hockley, thanks so much for sharing your memories of the 2000 World Cup.

Thank you for the opportunity.

Well, that's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you subscribe so you get a notification every time we upload. Also, check out the rest of the women's World cup podcasts we've done, as. They're available on the TMS feed right now, as is the latest episode of no Balls with Kate Cross and Alex Hussein Hartley. And while you're on BBC Sounds, search for BBC Stumps while you're there. Thanks for listening. Speak to you next time. Bye bye.

The ICC Women's Cricket World Cup Featuring the stars of women's cricket smash straight back down the ground. This girl, eight teams takes the cap.

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