Huge Ashes injury blow for Australia

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You'Re listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Hello, I'm Stefan Shemelt and welcome to the Test Match special podcast on England's Ashes tour. Today there's been a significant blow for Australia ahead of the first two test with Josh Hazelwood ruled out but better news for England with the result of Mark Wood scan. We'll have all the news of that plus round up the action from England's win against the Lions with Ollie Pope again in the runs. We'll be joined by Jonathan Agnew and get the Australian view from ABC reporter Mitch Turner plus England fast bowler Brydon Cast.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Well welcome back to Perth. Night has fallen, we're in the city centre, it's the end of what's been a busy day. We've had two significant pieces of news off the field as well as England beating the England Lions in their warm up game. On the field before play we had confirmation from England that Mark Wood scan had shown no issues around the left hamstring which caused him some concerns on the first day. Ninety minutes later we had more news, this time from Cricket Australia telling us that Josh Hazelwood will miss the first test with a muscle strain in his own hamstring. Remember a couple of days ago he walked off the field in New South Wales, a Sheffield Shield game against Victoria. We thought he was okay, he'd had a scan. Now another scan has revealed the injury. Michael Nissa has come into Australia's squad. On the field less eventful. England chased down 202 to beat the Lions. Ollie Pope made 90 to add to the century he scored yesterday. Jacob Bethel made 70 playing for the Lions. And probably a little bit too late his return to form to push a case for a place in the first Test. There are also half centuries for Ben McKinney and Jordan Cox, England hopefuls of the future. On the bowling front, Mark Wood didn't take the field, but Brad and Car did. It's his first bowl of the tour. He missed the first day of the tour game with illness. He took three wickets and I spoke.

To him after play, you know, the last couple of days. Good to be back out here and today to bowl a couple of spells and, and you know, get some miles in my legs again is a good feeling.

You obviously missed the, the first day. Do you feel like you're back up to speed?

Yeah, 100%. You know, I just had a bit of a 24 hour bug, but yeah, obviously yesterday, done a bit of training and then today to be able to bowl, you know, 12 overs out there today I feel good again.

Three days here at Lila kill for the team. Do you feel like the whole squad has got what they needed out of this game?

Definitely. I think you look across, you know, now the group of seamers have all got a decent amount of overs in and some of the batters have spent some time at the crease. So, you know, we got a couple of days off now and then three or four days of prep leading into that first test.

We heard this morning that Mark Wood has been cleared of any concerns over that hamstring. How much of a relief is that for him and for the rest of the squad?

Yeah, that's great news. You know, when Woody found out last night that it's nothing serious, so, you know he's gonna again have a couple of days off and then, and then have a good bit of training up leading up to that first test.

How concerning had that been over the past couple of days? Waiting to hear about that.

You know, I think for any player, you know, when you waiting on a result of a scan, it can be a little bit niggly but you know, he was fairly confident that it was going to be nothing serious and he's obviously received that positive news. So, you know, he's all up and about and full of energy at the moment.

Everything that he's gone through to get his body on the park, it's tough bowling fast. I mean, as a character, I mean he's incredibly tough, isn't he, to want to keep doing that and keep Coming back?

Yeah, he's got a, you know, a huge amount of resilience. You know, you look back at some of the setbacks that he's had over his career to keep coming out and, you know, keep going through the processes to get back out on the field. It's very exciting, you know, and it shows the sort of character that he has.

We've heard today that Josh Hazelwood has been ruled out of the first Test. What's your reaction to that?

Has he.

He has.

Right. You're the first person telling me, look, he's obviously a massive bowler for Australia and, you know, I'm sure, you know, we'll certainly see some part of him throughout the series.

And, yeah, is he a bowler that you've ever looked at or looked up to with the skills that he's got?

He's certainly a bowler that I've admired, you know, throughout my career and the performances and, you know, his importance to Australian cricket has been someone to look up to. So, yeah, you know, he's a phenomenal bowler.

Here we are talking about injuries to fast bowlers. You know, Mark Wood's come through one. Josh Hazelwood has suffered one. What is it like as a bowler to put yourself. To put yourself through that, to try and hurt the ball down 22 yards as fast as you can?

That's hard work at times, but, you know, that's part and parcel of the job. We've got a great support staff that help us get out on that field and get us 100% match ready.

You've done all you can now to prepare for the first Test, certainly on the field, the next time we be on there is playing in it. Have you allowed yourself to think about what it's going to be like?

It's going to be amazing. You know, the opportunity comes. It's something that I'm looking forward to taking. You know, the guys have all had a good three days out here and some guys have been out here a bit longer and some guys have been in New Zealand. So, you know, the group of players have had a lot of cricket over the last couple of months and obviously the back end of the English summer. So, yeah, everyone's raring to go.

We're told that Optus pitch can be a little bit spicy. You excited to have a go on that?

Yeah, of course. You know, it might be a little bit different to this week's preparation, but, you know, this week was all about bowlers getting, you know, miles in their legs. So, yeah, look, it's exciting. I think We've got a group of six bowlers who, whatever dynamic we go with, will relish in those conditions.

Well, that was Brighton Carse. And from one big nasty England fast bowler to another. And with Jonathan Agnew.

It's been a long day, Steph. I've flown from Sydney, which everyone knows is about a five and a half hour flight, three hour time change and it feels like it's the middle of the night.

When was the last time you were called a nasty fast bowler?

Very long time ago. A very long time ago. But no, it's just great to be back on the tour again. You know, I've been having a couple of weeks in Sydney and there's a huge anticipation there. I mean, there really is. And actually, funnily enough, I went to watch New South Wales against Victoria the day at the scg and they were amazed by how many people were there, you know, the spectators. And that's because cricket is being talked about. I mean, they really was. The pavilion and the ladies there was, it was, it was full, not the scg, but that area which you're allowed in. And there was a real anticipation about it. Yes, because a lot of the Australian players were playing as well, of course, including Hazelwood, who I watched bowl on the first day. And he's his usual rhythmic pounding away at a length self. And then of course comes the news that A has gone off, but he's okay. And then today up in the air comes the news that he's out of the game. So that's, that's, you know, clearly.

A.

Huge talking point as far as, as far as England are concerned. They've got a great chance, you know, and you don't want to profit on injury, you know, you want to play the best team and you don't want at the end of Sydney when England win the ash. Yeah, mate, but Cummins and Hazelwood didn't play. And you, you don't want to hear that. You want to beat the best team. However, that's the team they're up against. You go out there and beat them and it's. They've got a much better chance now than they did a couple of days ago.

I wanted to call this podcast Hamstrung and Hamstrong, but producer Adam, he wasn't happy with it.

Well, it, it is, it, it does feel like a sort of a hamstringy sort of a debate. Does it? Because Mark Wood, course, what are they going to do with Mark Wood? I mean, you just can't help but feel that he is fragile now. That's his first run out since February and it just shows. You can do all the training, you can do all the weight training and do all the sprinting around, running about. And I mean I saw him at the end of the summer at the oval running in and bowling and I said, how's he coming? Oh, I'm doing really nicely. First run out properly in the game and you know, you have an issue now. Okay, he hasn't, he hasn't done any damage, so we think. But you know, the fact that he's had to go off, he's had to go for a scan because it gets in your head after a while as well. How am I ever going to play at this level again? That's the sort of stuff that goes around in a fast bowler's head inevitably. Because think of Mark Wood. Every ball is 100% effort. There's no subtlety. You know, he doesn't run in and bowl this and that, he just tears in. He's not a big bloke, he's actually quite a slight fellow. He's very, you know, he's physically strong but he's, he's not your typical sort of big strong. He's not Hazelwood. Every ball is a hundred percent effort and if after one run out he's already feeling a bit creaky in a hamstring, that's, that's, you do have to, you do have to wonder what sort of party can play in this.

Well, I've got a theory that though on this and I think England showed their hand in the warm up game against the Lions by, In the England 11 in inverted commas, it was five seamers, four specialists plus Ben Stokes showing Bashir and the Lions. To me that is a big hint that they want to play five seamers at the Optus for, for reasons that we know why the Optus is spicy, it's bouncy. And in general, actually spin has played quite a diminished role in test cricket in Australia over the past decade. So if the plan is to play five seamers and remains to play five seamers, is that not the time when you can actually look after Mark Wood a little bit more because he's got that protection around him and if England only need him to bowl eight 12 overs a day, three, four over spells, one a session, is that the risk that they will now have to weigh up between now and Friday?

I think it's a good point. I mean, certainly manageable, isn't it? Not going to play a spinner they might play Will Jacks. I think we've talked about it earlier, then. I agree.

I think.

I think he. He looks a. A more likely bet to play as a spinner with Root as well than Bashir does, I'm afraid. I think. I think he's.

He's.

I think he's struggling at the moment. But anyway, that's just. That's a different point. Five seamers. I mean, it's, it's not often done. It's not often done.

And you often say, don't do it because the fifth seamer doesn't bowl enough.

Well, exactly. But actually, you're right, if, if, if you don't want your fifth seamer to bowl too much. And there's still that question of Stokes, isn't there? You know, do you really want Ben Stokes to be bowling 20 overs a day? Actually, probably not. You know, you've actually got two to look after. I can see Atkinson and Cast doing a lot of bowling on this tour. And you got Joffre Archer as well. Again, you, you know, you're just slightly being careful of, aren't you? So that might be a way of managing their attack. Day knighter in Brisbane coming up. You know, the pink ball there could.

Be interesting with a big gap between the two.

Yeah, absolutely. So you could, you could, you know, get someone a bit of a rest. No, I suspect they got most of their plans formulated by now, but I suspect that is. That was very definitely one of their.

Options because there'll be people listening to this who are saying, what are you talking about? It is far too big a risk to play Mark Wood after no cricket since February. On the first day he goes onto the field, he pulls up with some hamstring tightness, but I think, I would argue it would be a bigger risk to bringing him later in the series when England have to play a spinner and he's 1 4.

Yeah, no, I can absolutely see your argument. I can. And if he blows up in this test, well, you know, there's still four scene bowlers and Wood blows up and that's that. So. No, I do. I do get that. And there is him, there's Archer and there's Stokes, who just have to be a little bit careful of. And, yeah, that could well be. I just. I just really hope that England make the most of this opportunity because it is Alec. Crikey. No, Cummings or Hazlewood. They are the steady Eddy bowlers for Australia and a lot more than that. Besides, they are quality bowlers. They give control to Steve Smith the captain, they are such good bowlers. To be missing both of them was a massive blow. I did watch Doggett bowling, though. I saw him bowling for South Australia against Tasmania. He picked up wickets and actually he looked. I mean, he's 31, he's been around a while, but he bowled at a decent pace. But he bowled a good length, a fullish length for Australia and he swung the ball. He bowled genuine outswingers and was getting bats when caught in the slip. Cordon error. So, you know, he looked decent but, you know, it would be his first game.

Well, Brendan Doggett's 31. He won't be overawed. You'd think. Not because he's got that experience in Sheffield Shield cricket. I've heard former bowlers like Ryan Harris and Jason Gillespie talk him up. Ryan Harris is his coach at South Australia. In terms of the opportunity, I totally agree with you in that, you know, Cummins and Hazelwood to be missing, but we're in this situation. Four years ago, Hazelwood only played one of the five tests and Cummins missed the second one with a Covid scare. Australia still won the series 4 nil. The thing I find interesting about Cummins and Hazelwood missing out is that if England were going to basball anyone, the seamers that Australia are left with are Mitchell Stark, who, who can be wayward y and Scott Boland, who England got after Y two years ago. The other thing I'm going to throw into the mix is there seems to be a little bit of debate over where the Nathan Lyon plays.

Yeah, yeah.

In that Test again, I'll go back.

To this game I watched the other day and Smith used him brilliantly.

Yep.

He bowled one over, got a. Got a wicket. The first wicket actually took him off and then he came back again and got the centurion out. I mean, he, he's a good bowler.

England be delighted if he doesn't play, wouldn't they?

Yeah. I just think that Smith's. Now he's going to have to. He's going to have to have his experience. I just think he's going to have to play Lyon. You know, if you have got neither or Dogger or these guys playing alongside Boland and Stark, he's going to want some control. And Lyon does bow well against England. They do respect him.

So you're talking about England's opportunity and I think everyone can agree now this is a golden opportunity and we need them to start well because there is no way back, is there? From realistic, from going behind in the.

Loser it's very, very difficult to get back.

But what about this idea of preparation then? And this is the golden opportunity where there are. And we'll judge England on the result, won't we? Their preparation. We will judge it on the result. Now my personal theory is the quality that they could have had without some outside assistance from cricket Australia. The quality of the opposition they had this week was about the best they could have done. That was what was in their control. The conditions were totally different to what they'll face at the Optus. Slow low pitch at Lila Kill. Not much of a crowd, not much abuse. I don't know what more they could have done in the circumstances. It's whether or not the circumstances can ever be changed, isn't it?

Yeah, but it's a totally valid conversation. I mean for Stokes to get angry with Botham and Vaughan for. It's a totally valid conversation. A three day match amongst yourselves, a build up for an Ashes series. I mean that's totally unprecedented. But it is, it's their decision. And all you hope at the end of this series is that they will all look in the mirror. Duncan Fletcher has talked about and really believe that they give themselves the best chance. You know, this is, this is their opportunity of a lifetime to go to Australia and to win the Ashes. People, people talk about that for years. Ben Stokes is captain. Yeah, to win the Ashes. People still talk about Railingworth doing it in the early 70s. You know, it happens so infrequently and they've made this choice, it might suit them. You're right. I mean what worries me a little. Well, there are two things. I'd like them to have had a bit of experience of Australians batting, particularly because Australians bat differently to English bats and the back foot players, they cut, they pull, you know, it's just different. The language is different. Everything's different. When you're playing against, against the Australians and the crowd, you know, that's another thing that, you know, if they played here at the Wacker against Western Australia or Australia A. And again I, I would just urge the ICC to, to, to, to make a Test series. However long the Test is, there must always be for my money included a match against the, the hosts. A team. I just think that suits everybody. It helps the hosts, it helps the tourists and it helps test cricket because the, everyone's better prepared. But anyway, that's the thing for me that, yeah, I get your argument that there was no guarantee of the quality that they would have faced and they've made this decision. Well, that's their decision, but to question it is entirely valid. Entirely valid. And, you know, it's up to Stokes, isn't it? It's up to him and his team to make the most of it.

How many Ashes tours is this for you?

I don't know, 10, is it? Thank you, Adam. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, that seems. Yeah, it seems extraordinary. Ten series here, I think. It's about number, I think. Is it 20 overall? Something like that? 19 or 20.

And what are we, six days out from the first Test now? Still get that tingle?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've been in Sydney for two weeks doing other things and, you know, to get on the plane and come here today, I'm really looking forward to it. I can't wait to get, you know, see the practice, just catch up with everybody. That's the nice thing about the Ashes and the Ashes tours, you know, meeting up with your old mates in the commentary boxes and, you know, life goes on after cricket. When you've been doing this for a while, just to catch up with Mark Taylor and Mark Waugh and, you know, Adam Gilchrist, people like that, you know, who have become good mates through doing this job. And you know, Jim Maxwell, of course, who I saw the other day on very good form in Sydney, you know, he'll be part of our team again and I'll be going on the abc. And that amazing connection that ABC Radio has with the whole of Australia. There's no other radio station that gets blanket coverage of this vast country. And there they all are and they're combines, tractors or whatever they're doing, listening to the cricket. It's the connection.

And of those tours that you've done to this country, has it ever been like this? The build up, the frenzy, the high? Is it a different level this time?

Well, it's always. It's. Well, in the 90s, it was a bit more hostile because Australia was sure they were going to win. They just, you know, they just had. They had Warren McGrath and the rest and they just knew they were going to win. So there's a lot of, ah, gee, yeah, why are we bothering with five tests, you know, oh, just make it competitive this time. You'd hear that sort of whiny, whingy stuff. You think, oh, shut up. 20, 10, 11, when. When they should have won at the Gabba and didn't, you know, cook trot batting brilliantly, saving that game to then go on and win from there. But this feels definitely the best opportunity that England have had since then. I mean, I'm a bit with Stuart Broad about the last tour, the COVID tour. Very difficult really to judge on that. It was a horrible tour. No one could go out, no one could practice. No, it was, it was a, it was a, it was a tick the box tour to get it done. This is different. This is different. And to have this opportunity that England have now at the start of it is very exciting. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

So that was Jonathan Agnew and I'm alongside Mitch Turner from the ABC to react to what we've heard today. Mitch, I think like when we, when we turned up at Lilac Hill, I was expecting bad news and we got some, just not for the team. I was expecting to receive bad news.

Absolutely. Stefan, we arrived here today thinking, you know, what's going to happen with Mark Wood? Will we see him bowl? We knew that he'd had some precautionary scans and we're wondering to await the outcome. The one we weren't worried about was, was Josh Hazelwood who we were told was given the all clear within hours of learning that he had an issue with his hamstring. And unfortunately for the Australian camp in that sense he, the news came through today that he will not be part of that first test in Perth and the it seems to be more positive on the Mark Wood front not bowling today at Lilac Hill in this interest squad match if you like, but certainly seems like a more positive long term outlook for Mark Wood and not great for the Australians.

So I'm going to ask about your sort of where you think this leaves Australia with not having Josh Hazelwood as well as Pat Cummings already been ruled out of the Test. But first, what's gone on there because we sort of did a dance on Wednesday when he first went off the field for New South Wales and then Steve Smith spoke to say I think he's okay. And then we got told he's okay. A few days later we're told he's not and he's out of the Test.

It seems like this is not the first time we've been through something like this with Josh Hazlewood who has struggled to stay on the park for consecutive periods of time and for long periods of time for quite a while. He barely managed to play through an entire Test series, certainly in the Australian summers in the hard pitches and the tough conditions on your body. But the word from cricket Australia was that initial scans sometimes don't pick up these minor strains in the, the Muscle body. So that's what they've told us. Now, subsequent scans have picked up that there is an issue with the hamstring and there is a strain there. We were a bit, I guess, taken back by how quickly the news came out the other day when we first.

Came back, it was remarkable, wasn't it, because Josh Hazelwood had a scan the same day. Mark would have to wait 24 hours to get himself into, to wherever these things happen.

And I'm not sure if it was gamesmanship saying, look, Mark, you'll have to wait 24 hours. We're not going to sneak you into a. A scans clinic. I'm sure it wasn't that. And there didn't seem to be a huge amount of concern when Mark Wood left the field here at Lilac Hill the other day and also with Josh Hazelwood. But we've learned now that it was more serious than first thought and they haven't played a lot of cricket without Josh Hazelwood or Pat Cummins. And this, this swings things in favour of England, I think, for the first Test. And the English camp would certainly like their chances.

There's one point I want to make before we get into what this means for both teams. We were in a similar situation four years ago. Josh Hazelwood played one Test in Brisbane. Pat Cummings was ruled out of the second Test because of a Covid scare, and Josh Hazlewood at that point suffered a side injury, which meant he missed the entire series. So last time around, there was a time when Pat Cummins and Josh Hazelwood weren't in the Australia team for an Ashes Test. Australia won that match in Adelaide and they won the series four nil. So that's my English pessimism, realism, call it what you will. Is it different this time around?

I think it is different, given the aging, the aging profile of this bowling attack already. Mitchell Stark and even Scott Bolland, who a lot of people might not realize. Scott Boland's in his mid-30s. Like, he's quite far along in his cricketing journey, even though he's early in his Test journey.

And Michael Nissa, the man who's been called up, is 35.

Exactly. So Michael Nies are into the squad, very experienced, but they're not the youthful bowling lineup that we've. We've had for Australia for the last 10 to 15 years. They are right at the back end of their careers. That includes Josh Hazelwood. Pat Cummins might have a bit longer, but they're not this sprightly, youthful attack that we're used to even Nathan Lyon, who there's whispers going around he may not even play in Perth, given they could go with an all out pace attack on what will be a fast and bouncy wicket. I just think five years ago there'd be less of a concern covering it right now given that they aren't the young spring chickens that they once were in test cricket. There's a bit more of a concern there and their ability to take 20 wickets now I think has taken a really big hit and a lot is going to fall on not just Scott Boland, but Mitch Stark has got to take early wickets for Australia now and we'll get a pretty good indication in the first over bowls in Perth whether that's looking likely or not.

One thing I thought was interesting when we got that news as well from Cricket Australia today that Josh Hazelwood is going to miss the first Test match is we've had a lot of noises around Pat Cummins to say we think he's on track to play in the second. And maybe even actually there's a bit of a school of thought that Australia might have been a bit too keen to rule him out of the first Test because we're hearing that actually he's doing okay on the recovery from that back injury, but lots of stuff, he's going to be fine for the second Test and he'll take the captaincy on and all those sorts of things. There's no suggestion in that statement, is there, from Cricket Australia today of how long Josh Hazelwood's going to be out for?

No. And what we've seen with Josh Hazelwood in the past is that lack of date from Cricket Australia and getting the initial news through that he's had a side strain or he's had a hamstring issue or some of the injuries he's battled through in the past. And it's been an open ended date that just kind of gets pushed back and he misses one Test, Josh Hazelwood, then he misses a second and then all of a sudden it gets midway through the series and the news comes out he won't take further part in the, in the series. So I think there is concern with Josh Hazwood because small niggles and small injuries have gone on to become bigger problems for him and it almost felt too good to be true with his form with the white ball. This summer in Australia has been so good that I think there was a few of us around in the Australian public certainly that were thinking this sounds too good to be true. He's going, he's bowling as well as he ever has in the short form of the game. And are we waiting for the other shoe to drop and waiting to see if there's something bad's going to happen. And it has happened a week out from the first test which is not catastrophic for Australia. But I really do think it swings things much further towards England for that first Test which is going to be so big for summer.

I think where the two teams land at the moment is that I think England have got 10 names for the, for the team in the first Test inked in and the 11th name would be Wood if, if they think he's fit. If it's not Wood and they want that fifth seamer then Josh Tong would, would take, take his place. Or maybe they may look to, to tinker the balance of the attack and think about a spin option. Australia, how many players do they know that are going to play in the first Test? Because it seems like there could be all sorts of different options and knock ons to Hazelwood not being available. Does Jake Weatherald open the batting and Cameron Green and both Bo Webser players all round options. Does now Wetherald miss out and Marness Labashane has to open? Does Nathan Lyon miss out? It just seems like there's, I don't know, such an amount of uncertainty that we're not used to from the Australia cricket team.

And it's been like this for probably the last six to eight weeks leading in that. Every day it feels like the 11 in everyone's mind is shifted and one day Marnus Lavishane is going to open. One day he's going to about three. Bo Webster's ahead of Cam Green and the next day Cam Green's ahead of Bo Webster. Now we're without Pat Cummins in Australia without Josh Hazelwood. Well, so as you mentioned, it throws things around because at the end of the day Test cricket you need to take 20 wickets. And do the Australian selectors feel comfortable that without Pat Cummins and Josh Hazelwood that the rest of their bowling lineup can take 20 wickets? Bo Webster in Red Bull cricket in first class cricket this summer has bowled really well in recent times and took wickets in the Sheffield Shield game just the other day. So does that swing him in front of Cameron Green who bowled well but only took one wicket from his 16 overs across the match? So does that change the lineup and do you try and push Manus Lachane back to the opening spot to get Cam Green at three and Bo Webster at six? I can't remember being this close to a first test of a summer with this many questions around an Australian 11. There's always been a couple in recent summers who's going to open, but we've kind of known if they land on this decision then this will be the rest of the 11. We'll right now there is option 1, 2, 3, 4, A, B, C, D. There is every option and we are no closer to knowing what it's going to be. And today it's just made that even more complicated.

I think I'm also right in saying that one of the trepidations that the Australian cricket fans have around this England team is what they can do with the bat if it goes right. And there were examples of that in the last home matches in 22, 23 it 20, 23. What about now as well? The seamers that are left standing, I mean, they feel to me like the ones who could most be basballed. You know, England got got after Scott Boland a couple of years ago. Of course he's got a brilliant record in Australia, but it was different in England. And sometimes a Mitchell Stark, you don't know what you're going to get.

You're exactly right. Mitchell Stark, you know, a sense here in Australia, you know, within an over or two, maybe even three balls sometimes what you're going to get from Mitchell Stark, if he's swinging the ball early in his innings with the ball, then he's a chance to take wickets. If the swing and the movement sideways isn't there for Mitchell Stark, don't worry about the bounce and the pace. He relies on that swing and that ball coming back in and challenging the stumps here in Australia and all around the world. So Mitchell Stark, as you said, if he's not moving the ball, then these England batting lineup, they could get right on top of it. And Scott Boland's the same. He very good record in Australia and not so good when he went overseas and with the ball at the test level. But he needs something in the pitch. He needs a bowling friendly pitch to get something out of it. I feel you're right. That's probably the concern is the two bowlers that were most susceptible to, I guess being basballed and being dominated by this English lineup. Other two that are left, you felt more comfortable with Josh Hayes with the four he'd been in. The extra bounce he gets, he gets the most bounce of the Australian bowlers. And Pat Cummins, who's got so many tricks and is such a smart bowler they are left with. If you had to take two out. You probably took Hazelwood out. Oh, you probably took Boland out and you probably took Mitchell Stark out. Because Hazlewood and Cummins feel like the two leaders of that attack.

And for that reason, to me, it would seem crazy for Australia to think about leaving Nathan Lyon out for the reasons that he has got a good record against. I know that the Optus Stadium is, you know, traditionally favoured seam bowlers and Australia in general actually has favoured seam bowling over the past 10 years, but if you were to work on the theory of the bowlers that the opposition would least like to face, I think Nathan Lyon would be right up there from an England point of view and they would be delighted to see him not in the Australia 11 come next Friday. I think, as a final thought, Mitch, I am an Englishman who is. I was bought up in the 90s, so my ashes optimism is rarely high from an Australian's point of view. Are we now both in the same boat? That we're both, I don't know, Pessimistic? I don't know.

I mean, we're trying to, I guess.

Because that is not the Aussie way, is it? No.

We are generally a confident, positive nation when it comes to sport. When it comes to cricket, however, we are also much like England. We're ruthless and we. We can chop people down and we can pick holes in our own lineup just as quickly as we can go after other nations. I feel like there is a. There is a lot of concern around the Australian public worried about the batting lineup. Even the players that we know will be picked in Usman Khawaja, Mana Savage haven't made a lot of runs at Test level in the last 12 months, so there's concern around that now. The bowling lineup's got massive holes in it. We're both being pessimistic. I was going to say someone has to win. Not necessarily we can have a drawn series. However, I do think with the news today around Josh Hazelwood, given the Pat Cummins situation, given what we already know, with a fragile batting lineup and an uncertainty around that, I think the first Test really does swing closer to England. And that first Test will be pivotal to winning throughout this summer and regaining the Ashes.

Mitch Turner of the abc, thank you very much.

Thank you.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

So thanks very much to Mitch Turner from ABC Radio. That's it from the Test Match special podcast for today. We'll have podcasts every day of this Ashes tour. We're only a few days away from that first test on Friday at Optus Stadium, there'll be live coverage on BBC Sounds, with video clips on the BBC Sport website and app and highlights on the iplayer. That's it for now. We'll speak to you next time.

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