'I should have died' - James Taylor 10 years on

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Hello, I'm Kevin Howells. Welcome to the TMS Podcast, where I speak to a man who, in his own words, said he should have died. Former England batter James Taylor was forced to retire from cricket in 2016 because of a condition called arrhythmogenic right ventricular cardiomyopathy. Now, we chatted 10 years on from being taken ill during a preseason match for Nottinghamshire.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

I began our conversation by asking James what he could actually remember of that day in Cambridge.

Oh, you know what, I think it might have been the second morning of the game. I think, I think it was the 6th of April, 2016. 2016-ish. I mean, I should really know that given my life changed forever on that day. But yeah, it was crazy. I'll keep this story very brief because it's a long winding story. But yeah, that first morning, it was the second morning of the game against Cambridge University where I'm thinking I'm going to fill my boots because I've just come back from an international tour. Obviously nicked off early on, on the first morning. Second morning comes, I'm I'm preparing for the game and just doing some throws as you do, and then I feel like I'm incredibly anxious. My heart's beating out my chest, and I can physically— no joke— physically see my shirt moving through from my heartbeat. It obviously feels like I'm incredibly anxious, but I shouldn't be because I'm playing universities. And then I— cut a long story short, I kind of make my way off the field. I think I'm going to be sick. I think I'm going to pass out, stick my head down the loo. And I, I'm not sick, but I can't breathe at this moment. This is the only time in the whole process where I thought I might pass out slash, um, die at this point. And I get put on— swiftly put on oxygen, um, and then I start to feel better because the physio gives me, um, uh, oxygen but also gives me a sugary drink, which is a big red herring in the whole process. And they, they think I'm ill, got a virus, so they sort of sort out a doctor's appointment. Um, and cut a long story short, that doctor's appointment's at 6 PM that night. So I make my way to Nottingham from Cambridge 2.5-hour journey, which ultimately I should have died on that journey. Um, and I— now my body, over the period of the next 5 hours or so, is packing up. I'm gray, I'm freezing cold, I'm sweating even though I'm freezing cold, and I can't physically walk, so I'm crawling. I now try to make my way upstairs. I— my body is packing up, so I'm being sick everywhere. I, I get in the fetal position in bed, and my shoulder now is killing me. This is going on now 6 hours. I've skipped a few hours in the process, but I ring the doctor and I'm talking through all my symptoms. I say, my shoulder is killing me. I'm massaging it because it's sore. And I tell him my symptoms and he says, don't wait for an ambulance. You haven't got enough time. So my wife and my mum took me to hospital. And then as soon as I get in there, they see the state of me and rush me through into— if anybody's seen Casualty, I love Casualty, and I know they're taking me into the room where the action happens. And they put me onto the machines. And I'll never forget the sound of the machines going at 265 beats per minute, which was obviously my heart rate. But it wasn't just going at 265 beats per minute, it was also out of rhythm. So I did incredibly well to survive that. You're meant to be only conscious through 10 minutes of that. And I'd obviously by now survived nearly 6 hours. And they said with what my heart went through was doing the equivalent of 5 to 6 marathons. Your normal levels of troponin, which is an enzyme that your heart releases when it's under stress. Their normal levels are zero. Mine were at 42,000. So 6 hours later, I was doing pretty well to be, uh, to be alive. And they, uh, they, they brought me back round and kicked me out of that rhythm, very, very fortunately.

But were you really aware during that 6, 7, 8 hour period of— and you knew that something serious was happening, but Could you really know how serious at that stage? Would you allow yourself to accept how serious it was?

Exactly, that's a great point because even though physically I was in a world of bother right now, I didn't know, but my body was just looking and trying to save my vital organs, which it did an incredible job at doing. But I was so mentally focused, so I just— this is where I was, it was bizarre, but I was so focused on still keeping my place and holding my value as an international cricketer, all I said to the doctor, the main doctor, luckily he knew and loved his cricket, and I said, just get me right for 3 weeks' time, which was Lords, Sri Lanka versus England at Lords. And I said, honestly, at the bedside when I was dying, I just said, just get me right for 3 weeks' time. That's all I need to be ready for Sri Lanka at Lords, because I worked so hard to get to this position. I'd now kind of cemented my place in the side test team. I needed, I wasn't giving up for anything. And I was like, Obviously then he, he obviously told me I'd had an event, i.e., a heart attack. It wasn't officially a heart attack, but it was there and thereabouts. And that was when I kind of knew my life had changed forever. And I was in hospital for the next 3 weeks. I couldn't walk physically for the next week because of the attack that I'd had. A couple of major surgeries later, and yeah, my life changed forever.

So as soon as the doctor— I mean, I've reminded myself of of this quote from a doctor. If it's any consolation, this condition is usually discovered in postmortems.

Yeah, that's a good one. It kind of swiftly brings you and your family back to realizing, one, how serious it is, but also how lucky I am to still be alive. And, and ultimately, I mean, it's a crazy story, but it's a great story because I was very, I was very lucky to be alive. And usually this condition, the father, the father dies and the children survive. Because it's found in postmortem what he's got. So then they check the children. So because they know the children have got the condition and they can manage— well, they can— they know they've got the condition, they can look after them. Um, so yeah, I was very lucky to survive.

But do you know now, to this, this day, and did you— have you discovered, was this definitely something you inherited?

Or—

because I think this was the case at the time, there was a little bit uncertainty as to whether You know, those that have ever met James, by the way, he does not give up on anything and he works the hardest. He is that sort of character and no doubt still is in the role he has today. But you were that sort of person. You pushed yourself to the nth degree, didn't you? To make, despite the fact that you're not the tallest, that you'd be the strongest and you'd be one of the best and you'd had your setbacks and then, you know, we're not gonna talk about those things that maybe had been a challenge for you with England now, 'cause that is definitely what our subject is about. But you were that sort of person. Was it inherited, or could, could that attitude of yours contribute to this?

Um, no, it was, it was, it's fact now, it was inherited. I got it from my mum. Um, uh, so yeah, it was inherited. And I was, I kind of had the best possible story because, like I said, I shouldn't have survived it. Should have, um, I shouldn't have been able to do what I did for so long. Um, and generally when presents, most people die. So I was very, very fortunate. And with my condition, exercise accelerates my condition. So what I did for so long, pushing my body to the brink every time I trained— and I love to train. I was always one of those guys that never knew when you could learn. So I got as many experiences under my belt, that classic cliché. I live by no stone unturned. I always strive to be better, whether it's playing club cricket, whether it was international cricket or training. I love to learn, so I always push myself so far. And I always— I was intrigued to know how far I could push myself and when I was put under pressure, how I would perform. So I always push myself. So yeah, that probably accelerated my condition, if I'm going to be honest.

So much to lose as a player. You've mentioned, you know, that Sri Lankan Test match coming up. You'd got yourself back in a really good place as a player, it was going to be a big year for you, wasn't it?

Yeah, and I can remember, of course, it was emotional and it was scary and it was sad. And I can remember putting on a really brave face, and then I had a roundtable with— I'm not sure if you were there. I had a roundtable with all the cricket media and journalists, and they mentioned that you'd done so much hard work and you'd reached the top and you'd cemented your place. And I'd honestly put on such a brave face for so long, and I just burst out crying. Playing in front of all of them because that's— it meant so much to me and it meant so much to so many people. And I was doing it not just for me, obviously, but I was doing it for so many people. And it really hurt not being able to do it anymore. So as scary as it was being ill, and I was so ill and so vulnerable when I'd never felt it, because as an international sportsman or as a sportsman full stop, let alone as a 26-year-old, you're invincible. And for the first time, I wasn't invincible. But also, I'd lost everything I'd fought so hard for and fought so hard for so many people as well that got me there. Um, it was, yeah, it was a really bitter pill to swallow. Um, but I, I, it kind of made it easy that I was so ill I couldn't think about playing cricket. So in a way that helped. Um, but yeah, it was a, it was a tough, tough thing to, to go through mentally, to, to reach the top and be where I've always fought so hard to be and just to have the rug pulled from underneath me.

Surrounded by people for whom I guess the word thank you will just never be enough, full of love and support from, I don't know, a few, but you know, some marvelous people.

Yeah, without doubt, I was, um, very lucky. And I, you know what, just the world of cricket allowed me to be mentally tough, um, and mentally in a great place to fight the battle that I had to fight. Um, obviously physically that You can't do much about, um, physically what's going to come and get you, but mentally I had to be able to control it. And I was only in a, in a place to be able to do that because of everything that cricket taught me through the coping mechanisms that I taught myself and everybody taught me to deal with the setbacks in cricket. Ironically, they really helped me when I was done with cricket to survive in life. And you need coping mechanisms when you have setbacks, and I had those in abundance from everything I learned through cricket. But obviously, as well as those coping mechanisms, I needed great people around me. My wife was incredible, my family. My agent, Luke Sutton, was just an absolute rock and a hero that drove me forward. Not just there for me as a person, but he drove me forward in my next chapter. That kind of— that saved me big time. And I owe a lot to him and some great people around me in cricket as well.

I seem to recall, because you started working with us a little bit, didn't you? How much longer after was it?

Was it— Um, maybe it was always pretty much—

it was pretty soon, wasn't it?

Yeah, as soon as I was well enough, within a few months. Uh, I, I owe a lot to BBC as well because I loved— I've been very lucky in the last 10 years. There's not many things I've done— I've done a lot of things— there's not many things I haven't enjoyed. So I've been very lucky. But my time with Test Match Special, with you obviously, Kevin, but, um, with, um, BBC and Test Match Special, I genuinely loved my time, uh, and I'm very grateful for everything that BBC allowed me to do and continue my journey in cricket. And yeah, it's a special place, Test Match Special and BBC.

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You talk of your wife. There was a time when seemingly you needed her reassurance for most things. Is that fair or not fair, in the sense of how are things, um, is this okay? The support she was giving? Yeah.

Oh, 100%. And I was, naively or not, I, I didn't— I had no psychologists around me. My wife was everything. She was obviously my wife, my partner, my best friend, whatever, but she was my psychologist. And I, like, my body was in a world of bother. My heart was doing somersaults every single day. With the common cold, my heart would do somersaults. Walking across the road, I'd be wary. Like, I couldn't lie on my left side. Um, everything was bad, and everything had a reaction in my heart. And I had like 24 ectopic— 24,000 ectopic beats a day. Like, it was crazy. I was being— like, the feeling, the sensation of being flicked in my heart once a minute, twice a minute, 10 times, like all the time. And so I'd always have grimaces on my face, so she would see those. So she would always ask me, and like I said, I can't control, um, what's going on physically, but I can mentally. So I would always talk— I would always choose to talk to her about everything I was feeling, which really helped. And she was always there, uh, and having somebody to talk to is so important when you're going through tough times, and she was my person to talk to. And yeah, that's so vitally important. Whenever you're going through any tough times, speak to people that you trust and just get it off your chest, so you're not carrying that baggage all alone.

There was the competitive James Taylor. There was the one that needed to accept the reality of what had happened to you and your body. But there was that— you've talked about this— you know, mentally and coping. And but it wasn't just coping, you needed some outlay for the competitive James Taylor that got you to the point in your life that you'd got to before this happened to you. I seem to recall at one point you might have thought, well, the best I'm ever going to achieve is a round of golf.

Yeah, yeah, totally. I can remember the doctor saying, you can't do this, you can't do that, you can't exercise, you can't drink too much, you can't do this, you can't be competitive, was the main thing. Because obviously with competitive, being competitive Competitive raises your adrenaline, raises your heart rate. So, but he said, you can play golf. And I'm like, not a chance, that's what my dad does. I'm not playing golf. And obviously my wife encouraged me and I took up golf and I thought, wow, I can be a pro in this in no time. I was hitting balls on the range and then I got on the course and I was so embarrassed because I was useless. I thought, hang on a minute, I'm a professional sportsman, I should, this ball should go exactly where I want it to go. Obviously it's not that straightforward, but I dedicated my life to golf and being as good as I could. I kind of, again, use those training, all the training that I got from cricket. And I love to dedicate myself to something and learn. I love to learn and experience different things. So I got myself to scratch from not playing golf, got myself to scratch in, in 3 and a half years, got myself to plus 3 in 4 and a half years. And you said I'm competitive. I just love to get better at things. And I— golf saved my life because I had no release. I had zero release after cricket. I couldn't exercise, I couldn't play cricket, I couldn't show off and do what I love. But golf was, uh, like you say, that outlet that I needed, and it really changed my life.

As we say, you came to work with us. It was seriously great to have you with us, but I wanted you to be closer to cricket again. I'm sure everybody that knew you wanted that. We lost you— did we lose you to becoming an England selector? Was that the next step on for you?

Yeah, exactly.

How did that happen?

Yeah, so obviously I worked a few times with Ed Smith. I didn't know Ed Smith, and Andrew Strauss and Ed Smith were keen on me joining, and I, at that stage, I just wanted to do things that I could make a difference at and ultimately enjoy. And being an England fan, having just played with the boys 2 years previously, it was an opportunity I just couldn't turn down. I had a great life, working for radio, TV, writing as well for the Evening Standard, coaching, working with 3 charities. I had a really nice portfolio of things to do. But when England ECB came calling, I couldn't turn it down. I thought I could make a real difference. And ultimately we did. We had a great time. Number 1 in white-ball formats, won the World Cup. We were tasked with winning away from home in Test match cricket and we won away from home. It was a great experience. Winning, working as well with great people and great minds in Ed Smith every single day was phenomenal. And I learned so much from him.

Forgive me for asking such a simplistic, but sort out in my head, you know, what's happened to you and what had happened to you, you know, relatively soon before you became part of our team. And then it can be quite a stressful environment you're working in. Did, does that, does that have an impact on your condition or not?

Um, working what?

Well, as an England selector.

Yeah, I, do you know what, I, I think, yeah, of course it is stressful. If you don't have the right process when it comes to decision-making and, yeah, if you don't have almost good structure and good process in your decision-making, if you let emotion get in the way and you're not being honest and your communication's poor, it makes things really hard and it is stressful. But if you're making and what if your process is rigorous, like as good as it could possibly be when it comes to making a decision, it kind of makes things easier because you've done everything you can to make that best-informed decision. So yes, you're selecting for England and you're dropping players and hiring players, and it is at the elite end of international cricket, but you're working with great people and you're making the right decisions at the right time. But like, in my head, so I can sleep well at night, it. And if I— do you know what, it would have been incredibly hard had I not played international cricket and you weren't used to the scrutiny. I was used to the scrutiny of— because I played international cricket for a period of time. I've had highs, I had lows, I knew the rights and wrongs. Of course, we didn't get everything right, but having a good process in place and not being emotional when it comes to decision-making, it wasn't as stressful as it could have been.

Again, forgive me if this is too simplistic, but what do you have to be careful about now in your life choices?

Um, I, I think you, I think you touched on it there. Stress is the worst thing for me because I can, I think you can bring your levels or your heart rate down when you're exercising, but the hardest thing to control and your heart is when you're stressed. That is, I, so I try and avoid too much stress. I, um, keep my heart rate relatively low. I lead a great life, a pretty low-key life. I try and have fun with what I do, and I don't try and get too het up and bothered about things. And the medication certainly helps, and I take a bit more of that if I need it. But yeah, I relax as much as I can. Like I said, I don't get in those moments where I wish I was more passionate about things and I did get more riled up about things, but I don't, and I've kind of learned not to, and kind of I can't physically—

Sorry to interrupt. What do you mean you wish you did those things?

Well, I wish I was more passionate. Like, if my football team loses, it doesn't— it's not the end of my world. Like, if my—

And you have to force yourself to react like that? Is that what you're saying?

Not particularly, no. I've obviously just taught myself for whatever reasons that I'm pretty laid back. Of course I'm passionate and I'm competitive, but it doesn't break my world if it doesn't go right.

Okay.

Like, for what I'm realistic.

Yeah.

Do you know what I mean?

Yes, no, I know that. That's— I'm sorry if I keep on prying, but you seem to be quite okay by talking about these things, and you go around certain societies and groups and meetings. What is the message that you're trying to convey from your story of the last 10 years to people not just in sport, not just in cricket, but in life generally?

Oh, that's a really good question. I think, do you know what, I think embrace challenges and embrace setbacks because you never know when you can learn. And ultimately, it's made me a far better person. From all the bad stuff that's had happened to me physically, um, with my heart, uh, and mentally, it, it mentally, it should have been incredibly a lot tougher, um, and I've been in a good place mentally because of the people I've had around me and because the coping mechanisms I've learned. But I, I've always embraced challenge, and I've loved to learn from those situations. And of course I've made mistakes, and it's been hard at times, really hard at times. But if you have a— if you try and embrace it and learn from these setbacks these mistakes, whatever it is, I think you'll come out with some positives. And I've led a great life over the last 10 years when I shouldn't have, and I've been very lucky for the experiences. Um, and I've, I've trusted some great people that have allowed me to get stuff off my chest, which is so important because physically we can't really control what happens to us, but mentally we can. And I think it's really important to to speak to people that you trust and get it off your head rather than battling with yourself. I think that's really important.

For many years, you would have been, no doubt, almost constantly thinking about the future and where you wanted to be at a certain time in your career and what you wanted to achieve by that time and all that stuff. Can you afford to do that now? Look ahead to the future in the sense of where you'd like your career to be? You mentioned this term, you know, Initially, anyway, low-key jobs or appointments, but you know, you've been hugely successful. You'll be the first to say as part of a team at Leicestershire, no doubt, but you're still enjoying great success in your cricketing career from that point of view. Can you afford to look ahead to say, you know, with this, where will it take me? Or do you not bother?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's really important to keep striving for more, and if that's striving for more at Leicestershire, great. I'm always trying to make every environment I'm in better. And also, I think it's important for individuals to know their strengths and weaknesses and surround yourself with people that are going to complement your weaknesses and drive you up as an individual, as well as driving the team up. And yeah, I'm intrigued to know where my next chapter is. Hopefully at L'Esprit, it's been great. I love new experiences and I love learning. And ultimately, I want to go into environments where I can make a real difference. And I'm wanted, and that makes me happy and that drives me. And right now, Leicestershire is doing a really good job at that.

James Taylor there, he's obviously having a great time there at Leicestershire right now. Fascinated to see where his career takes him from here on in. Make sure you're subscribed to the TMS Podcast on BBC Sounds so you get notified whenever we upload a new episode, and you can keep up to date with all things cricket cricket by following BBC Cricket on Instagram, as well as the latest news on the BBC Sport app and website as well. Thank you very much for listening, and we'll speak to you next time.

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Formula 1 is all about precision, tiny margins, massive ambition, flat-out performance. And that's exactly why it's exciting to see Cadillac entering Formula 1, bringing an American luxury brand with performance pedigree onto the biggest stage in motorsport. But this isn't just about the grid. That same racing mindset, the obsession with engineering, the pursuit of perfection, lives in the Cadillac V-Series lineup, giving you the chance to experience the precision and performance of the grid on the open road. Cadillac V-Series: Distinctive Luxury Performance, Engineered to Thrill. Discover the V-Series lineup at cadillac.com.