'If Stokes plays, he captains' - Michael Vaughan

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Welcome to our review of the second day of the second test match between England and New Zealand. It's been New Zealand's day. England are 179 runs behind. With only 4 first innings wickets left. Cox, 22 not out, and Joffre Archer in at number 8. They're yet to score. New Zealand adding 100 for the last 3 wickets today and then chipping away at England's batting. We will start with England's bowling and New Zealand's batting at the start of the day's play. So a reminder of the overnight score: 291 for 7. And general feeling was England had a reasonable first day, having put New Zealand into bat. And the plan was to polish off the last 3 wickets for about another 30 or 40 runs. New Zealand wanted 350 plus. Well, they got 391 in, what, an hour and 40 minutes, hour and a half of mayhem out there today. Michael Vaughan alongside me, Jonathan Agnew alongside me, Sir Alistair Cook coming as well, uh, very shortly. Uh, that first Passage of play today. I mean, was it— was the tone set right from the start, Michael, with that wide, wild delivery first up that went for 4 byes? Or can you just drag yourself back? There was the drop catch as well by Ducket when Jameson had 15 and Phillips went on to make it 100, and New Zealand just got away. I mean, how did you see it from, you know, from From a former England captain's perspective, how did you see it?

Well, they're 3 overs away from the second new ball, so as a captain and as a team, you're thinking, right, just get to that second new ball. If you get one before then, it's a massive bonus. But, you know, the first 2 balls went for 4, and then suddenly another one went through the COVID point region from Jameson. He thought, well, this is a little bit of a rocky start. But I was just expecting Joffre Archer to start from the pavilion end, 1 over with the old ball, then take the second new ball. I thought they might start with Jacob Bethell actually for 2 overs because he got a couple of wickets last night. Just get to that second new ball, then it would have been Matthew Fisher, Joffre Archer, who bowled so well yesterday with the new ball. To think that Joffre didn't bowl for 91 minutes, again, as the day has got longer and longer, that decision looks more silly by the minute. Because if someone like Joffre's got a problem, well, surely— I mean, he's fielded for 91 minutes and then bowled. Surely you'd have got him warm at around 10 to 11. Bowled him 1 over with the old ball and then said, "Just give us 4 with the second new ball. Try and clear the last 3 away, and if you can bowl us 5 out, then come off. Then you get off the field, get in the dressing room. We'll just use you for 5 out." For him to have fielded for 91 overs, it was just a very strange look for the team because everyone was saying exactly the same. We had Joffre warming up for about 40 minutes, and he was bowling to mid-on for quite a while. I think, "Come on, have a bowl. England desperately needs you to have a ball." It probably wasn't his decision, you know. You know, it's probably taken out of his hands by the medical team, I'm guessing. But, you know, the field was spread. Ben Duckett dropped quite an easy chance. And this England team, quite consistently now over a period, when they have a bad session, it's a really bad session. And let's be honest, usually it's with the bat. You know, over the last period, it's been with the, you know, the session in Perth on day 2. It's generally been more with the bat. But that was a really bad session tactically and with the ball. And it allowed New Zealand to get 100 quick runs. And the whole momentum shift, all the goodness and all the good chat from what we saw Yesterday when we thought England had a really good day, inside 90-odd minutes we were all saying, oh no, they've gifted New Zealand all the momentum back their way.

And even on the tactics that I— that I don't mind them going short of Jamieson because that was— that's a fair point. He was going to chip one up in the air like he did, but I don't quite know why they went short at Phillips. It was like almost just one tactic fits all, and actually Phillips, you know, starting again on whatever it was, 40-odd, 50, a few around the off stump, test that. And he had— I don't know, I'm confused about the arch and I was confused about the fact it was very, very stubbornly one tactic and that, that was— and it's cost him, it's cost him.

But also, I mean, Matthew Fisher had the ball from the pavilion end yesterday, ball from our end with the new ball, ball quite nicely. But he started using the new ball from the pavilion and Sonny Baker, who came with the older ball yesterday, start with the second new ball, it all just looked a bit— it looked a bit amateurish for a while. And it's— I look at that session, and I think we might be talking about it later on in the game, is a huge momentum shift in this Test match.

Well, it was inexplicable. I didn't— I just didn't understand the tactic at all, particularly bearing in mind that Archer wasn't bowling. You know, if you're going to bowl short and bowl like that, well, at least you do it when Archer can bowl. The fact that he wasn't bowling and then that the others— the others had to do it, and To try with it, with— when you have a tactic like that, yeah, okay, you might get somebody holed out in the deep, they might, they might flog one up in the air, but there's also a reasonable chance the ball's going to fly all over the place. And all you want at that stage, as Michael's saying, 3 overs, just control, let's get them done, get the new ball and just get these wickets out. It was— I thought it was extraordinary tactic. Whoever thought of that at this level, you know, they're not, they're not stupid in there, but it was just— I cannot understand who could possibly have thought that was the right way to go about it this morning.

So what was worse, Joffre Archer not bowling or the bowling from the people that did bowl?

Well, no, I think he must have been told not to bowl. I think the physios, whatever, he bowled that 8-over spell. We know he's not Test match fit. We're pretty sure that he wouldn't have played in this match had the shenanigans of last week not happened. He'd have got himself fit, he would have bowled some more. So, you know, I don't think it's him saying I'm not going to bowl. Uh, I think he's been told that, you know, 'We will knock these wickets over, Joffra. You don't have to bowl anymore.' That, that was the plan. But the fact that they came up with bowling short when Joff— they know Joff Archer isn't going to bowl, let alone bowl short— makes that tactic even more crazy in, in my view. I mean, if there's one person that's going to do it in that England side, it's Joff Archer. He's not going to bowl, so why do they do it?

So we're talking about the captain here, the standing captain, Joe Root.

Well, I'll say, as good a day that Joe had yesterday— I thought yesterday was magnificent. You know, the team had a poor moment in the morning, and that's down to not just the captain. The captain comes up with the kind of details of the plans, but the team just looked like— and they do it regularly, this side— they just seem to lose that bit of concentration when it really matters. You know, the duck-hit catch on the bat, that is a massive moment in the Test match. That's just a lack of concentration on the boundary. I keep saying, I'm not one to say about anyone that dropped catches. I've dropped many myself, but I know from when I dropped them it was purely down to concentration and not kind of, kind of being switched on to that moment at that given time. And they have done it continuously now for a period on this ground against India. Last, last summer they just switched off, lost the Test match. Harry Brook's innings, brilliant, then plays a poor shot. They have a habit of just switching off in Test match cricket and it's costing them.

But it's also really difficult If you have a tactic like that, similar to the tactic of putting everyone back when you've got an established batsman at number 11, not just asking once or twice, it's actually very hard to get it back again, really hard to restore normality because you've kind of played that card. And so whether it's bouncers or whether it's putting everyone back, which is a perfectly legitimate tactic and often works, but if it doesn't, it's very hard to get it back. And that's partly what's happened here today.

Yeah, we've been critical of England's bowling tactics, but we— what we haven't mentioned really and given him some praise for was a maiden Test hundred from Glenn Phillips, who actually came out last night and played really well and withstood that barrage from Jofra Archer and then took it on today.

Oh, I thought he— I thought it was a really rounded hundred. You're trying to use words and someone said it's gritty. I was like, well, there's gritty— there's a gritty element of it. That tough 8 overs, he was gritty. And then there was some dynamic stroke play, which was classy, and then played the situation well. It was a really good all-round 100.

Yeah, I was talking to Cookie earlier and saying that, you know, we down the nether regions of the batting lineup never quite understand why batsmen like these two actually go out there and enjoy facing fast bowling and battling their way through it, you know. But actually, that innings shows exactly why batsmen do love it, because it— yeah, it's hard, it's painful, you wear a few, you're ducking and diving for your life, but you get 100. And when you get that 100, the sense of satisfaction must be fantastic.

Well, I guess the modern player is very much geared to, you know, try and run towards the danger and put the bowlers under pressure. Glenn Phillips is very much a modern player. He's an aggressor, very good white-ball player, T20 striker, but he's just played a Test innings that included power, finesse, you know, timing the ball. But then the moment came when Joff returned to the tactics of the short ball, and he played the short ball. You know, like in the '80s when I used to see Robin Smith ducking and weaving and swaying, just trying to get out of the way, seeing off a bowler. So it just shows you that just because you're a modern player and an aggressor, it doesn't mean you have to be like that all the time. There comes a period in Test match cricket— that's why we love this format— that you have to change the way that you play in terms of the situation of the game, the conditions, who's doing what, what tactics are coming up against you. I thought that was a perfect example for the modern player to just get stuck in and play that way.

But you'd also have known, New Zealand would have known, that Archer wasn't actually match fit. He put 8 overs into his legs there, wore him out. You could say that actually the way that he played yesterday had an impact on what happened this morning as well. They just, they wore him out.

Ben Stokes is going to play for Durham tomorrow, uh, we think. All sorts of speculation about whether he's going to play in the, in the next Test match, or whether, you know, what's going to happen with the, the captaincy. Could you see a, a situation where Ben Stokes plays at Trent Bridge but doesn't captain the side?

Yeah, look, if he resigns and stands down as the captain, absolutely, that can happen. If he's not resigning, absolutely not. Surely he should be the captain if he's going to play at Trent Bridge. England need Ben Stokes the captain, you know, they need his leadership, they need his obviously all-round ability. Having an all-rounder just balances your tide. We talk about all that all the time, but I've read a couple of stories just now that Ben Stokes potentially could be back, but just as the player—

nonsense.

I can't believe it. Unless, unless he suddenly had a turn of thought and thought, right, I've done with the captaincy. I, I don't get a sense that that's going to be the case. Uh, if Ben Stokes is playing at Trent Bridge, he has to be in.

Well, if he's not the captain, then that means he's either resigned or he's been sacked. I mean, you can't just—

Exactly.

You can't just not be captain anymore, is it?

It's like, I just don't understand why, why are we in a situation still You know, 2 days in, I know there's been an investigation today. I think they've been interviewed by the regulator. I just want to hear from the—

They've been interviewed today?

I believe Gus Atkinson and Ben Stokes have been interviewed today. Yeah, now I just want to hear from the ECB. I want them to say publicly that Ben Stokes will be our England captain. He's our England captain. He's done some good stuff for the England side. I want him back, and all the— we all want him back, don't we? Do you want him back, Simon?

Um, well, I think it's— It's weird that he's— people are talking about not being the captain in the future.

I just think it's staggering, you know, unless they're sacking him. If they're sacking him, give us a reason why.

It's again because we're in a vacuum, aren't we? That's the problem. We are in a complete communication vacuum and we need— it needs to be, you know, something, something said. There needs to be information, information put out.

You didn't answer that question, Simon. You ask us the questions.

We ask—

well, that's my job, Alistair.

Every now and again you've got to answer one, Simon.

Um, well, I'd like to— I, I'd like to know more about what happened first before, you know, before you have when you have all the evidence.

But that's what the board will say.

Yeah, well, yeah, but if you— once you know everything, then you can make a decision and make a judgment, can't you?

Yeah, but that's what the ECB would say. We are still—

The story's moving, isn't it? It's gone from that he probably won't play next week to suddenly— and dare I just say, England's not had a great day— and suddenly Ben Stokes is coming back. Or maybe we're going to lose, we need him.

It's silly that they're going to you today. Well, that's what's happened the last 9 days. Why aren't they interviewing 2 days after? So I haven't got on with it.

Maybe the regulator's been away.

Yeah, he's on holiday.

It's a nice time to be away.

Okay, look, New Zealand all out for 391. So England, a little session before lunch, they got 15 for no wicket. There was nearly a run out before lunch, Duckett dabbing the ball into the offside. Gay would have been out. And then of course after lunch, when Duckett was playing really well, he'd made 36 off 25 balls, he was actually run out by Gay. Well, he's run out by Smith, but Gay made the decision to take the single. And actually, it kind of continued the pattern, which didn't continue later on, actually, of players just frittering their wickets away in this match. Actually, you could even criticize New Zealand a little bit because they chucked away 3 wickets today. They could have actually scored a few more, couldn't they, really?

I just look at all the scores. You've got Latham 27, Conway 9, Nicholls 24, uh, Ratchett 33, Mitchell 44, Blundell 51. And then you go to England's order, you know, most players getting in a 36, a 53, a 9 for Jacob Bethell, 46, 24, 24. So it's a week when all the batters really have got in, and only Glenn Phillips so far has managed to get the 3 figures.

Yeah, well, it's gonna— it felt like it's gonna cost England, isn't it? You don't win Test matches in the first innings if not one of your top 6 or 7 goes on and gets a score, and you, and you build around it. And for everyone to get starts I'm still looking at that wicket and I think it's a really nice wicket to bat on. Yeah, I mean, the balls which Root and Brook missed today, they are, they are going to be— I know Joe will be because I know him better— be devastated that he missed it. It was a good bit of bowling, but it wasn't an outstanding bit of bowling. The odd away, the odd one in, and you actually saw him walking off in absolute disgust himself that he missed that ball. And I think they've missed an opportunity. A lot of batters here have missed an opportunity to go and get a score.

What about this keeper standing up, Bix? It's really interesting, isn't it? Because that was definitely— that's a legacy from Nisa and Carey in the Ashes, isn't it? They've clearly looked at and thought, right, the, you know, Root and Brook, two fabulous batsmen. Yeah, there's, there's— they're vulnerable here.

Yeah, well, and I think, look, Joe's incredible, but I think that's probably the way that teams, uh, will go. It's maybe a bit of bounce when he first goes in, just outside off something you can sometimes sneak it up, but just kind of trapping him on the crease. But how do you keep him in the crease is by keeping the keeper up. You know, Harry Brook, I look at his technique and I think most teams around the globe now will just try and get Harry Brook playing forward defensive shots. Very, very difficult shot for Harry to play. That's why he moves around the crease a lot of the time, because I think his technique's not quite, you know, the purest of techniques. He's quite a kind of unorthodox player. That's why he gives him that shot that he's hit over third for 6. He's quite remarkable. I think he's 6-ball. But I think most teams now Michael Niesen in Australia have started it, will look at Harry and go, yeah, if we've got, you know, skillful bowlers—

I think you have to have the right bowler, don't you?

Yeah, you can't just do it with anyone.

No.

You know, Matt Henry's world class, and Nathan Smith's probably been their pick of a— with O'Rourke today, the best of the two bowlers. But you need quality bowlers, you need consistency, and I think most teams now will go keeper up, try and make Harry Brook—

And a decent keeper too.

Yep, that helps as well.

Yeah. Is it your hunch that that spell from Matt Henry might have really push the course of the Test match decisively New Zealand's way. That those two wickets to get rid of Root and Brook in consecutive overs, LBW, 177 for 5. England a long way behind.

Well, it was more the fact that those two could have been the ones which got those big scores, which got England a lead. But that's not going to happen now. Like, England are going to scramble as many runs as they can. They need a morning like New Zealand had this morning to get close to New Zealand. Just to keep them in the game. So that— those two wickets have certainly dented the chance of England being in the dominant position.

I think they've got to— they've got to find a way of getting another 100 if they can. You then start to look at who's going to get the 10 wickets in the second innings. You know, you've got Joffre Archer, you know, struggled to bowl today, he's going to have to bowl again tomorrow. Uh, Matt Fisher, I don't think there'll be a, you know, any more swing than we saw on day one. So 85 miles an hour, you might have to use the keeper up tactic. And then obviously Josh Tong and, um, who else is in the attack?

I've lost one.

Yeah, Sonny Baker on his debut. You know, again, it'll be, it'll be challenging to get that, the 10 wickets in the second innings. But, um, you've got to give credit to New Zealand. They're, they're a fighting team. I think the scrap yesterday without having, you know, the, the players going on to get the big score— and in Glenn Phillips, he's played a brilliant innings. He really has played nicely, and he's put New Zealand in a position that, uh, from here you'd have to say that New Zealand are favorites to win the game.

But if England do lose the game, we will be talking about that first hour, won't we? Yeah, where it just seemed to just toss it away.

What about England's approach? So we're looking at some pointers to how England are going to approach this summer. Lord's was different because the pitch was so up and down, it was so unpredictable. Did we— have we seen a kind of different approach from England today?

Harry's—

Harry's single.

Well, apart from that, apart from the six off his sixth ball from this England batting lineup, Uh, they scored a 4 and over, and then Duckett was breezy, wasn't he, before he was run out? It might have been different actually if he'd stayed in, but—

I definitely— there's been a slight change of the tempo. Um, we saw Duckett and Laws leaving his first 6 balls, or 5 of them at least. There's definitely been a change of tempo. There's not quite so much of that, we are putting the bowler under extreme pressure, you know. They're not taking— not then— we haven't seen too many charges down the wicket in the hacking, you know. And where we have, we have seen that the last couple years, obviously, Gay is a very different player.

That's the thing, I mean, doing him at the top, it makes a difference as well.

Yeah, he's a different player, isn't he? Look, he's looking to soak up pressure, occupy the crease, and knock the runs off, rather than like a Crawley, he was trying to put the bowler under pressure from ball one. So yeah, there is a change of tempo, but it shows they still score.

I, I guess, probably won't like what I'm going to say now, but I actually want Harry Brook to go ultra-aggressive in this lineup. Because I'm seeing now the Emilio Gaze who plays the conventional— well, Jacob Bess is just a batter. Joe Root obviously has got a pure game at number 6 now. James Roo, you saw it, is a compacted player. I've liked the way that Jordan Cox has looked, but he can go into a gear or two more than we've seen today. The last thing I would want Harry Brook to do in, in terms of getting out is getting out the way he got out today. I don't want to see getting out in that way. If anything, I'd rather see Harry Brook getting down and trying to lap it. I just think he's a better player from what I've seen now over a few years. I think he's a better player when he's causing a bit of chaos.

But can't we have a blend of the two? Can't you have a situation which actually, you know, he plays for the situation?

No, but I think today, if you look at the way that he got out and he's got a debutant at the other end and he knew he was the senior partner, and I think in his mind he probably thought, I've just got a bat now, I've got things to play because I'm the senior kind of figure out here. I've got James at the other end, I've got Jordan to come at number 7. The last thing I want, uh, and again, I don't want him to overcomplicate life. I don't want him to think too much. Yeah, so I don't know if it works for Harry when he's thinking.

So how does he deal with the problem though of the keeper standing up and a bowler like Matt Henry?

Well, look, clearly he's got to iron out that technique. He's got to try and play a forward defensive, but you know, someone like Harry Brook, I think he's got the game to be able to hit Henry off his length. You know, really striking. We could launch him over mid-on, you know. I just want to see Harry Brook having the freedom and the game to be able to go and be flamboyant without thinking he's got to play conventionally in this lineup. With the amount of conventional players that England have in this lineup, I want Harry to be the free spirit.

But there's a time he's going to have to soak up a little bit of pressure. He's just lost Joe Root, and then you can't just try and whack the next ball. I think Vaughan summed up well, I reckon is he overthinking batting? So a lot of starts in Australia, lots of— I think only one time out of those 10 knocks did he not get double figures. He's getting out at the minute when he shouldn't be getting out in terms of you've done the hard work. So he's doing all the hard work, getting lots in, and then actually, is he overcoming? Is he now, you know, because of the talk about how he plays, he's then worried, 'Oh, I can't play like this because Joe Root's got out.' So he's already doing something he shouldn't be doing. What's the most important thing about batting?

Have you seen anything, Cookie, in that minute? Lord, second innings, he got out for naught. That nip backer, it was a tough pitch, wasn't it?

But that nip backer, he just doesn't seem to react to that as well, does he? Doesn't move again. He doesn't—

he does—

if you look at the wicket today, does his triggers and then just tries to hit the ball with the bat.

It doesn't—

there's no movement again. I think that is a little bit of a concern, whether he feels with the keeper up or something there that he can't step into it.

I'm amazed I want a short leg in there as well.

The keeper never—

Keeper up, short leg.

You don't need to. Yes, you do.

He misses it anyway.

You get forward now with the short leg.

But he doesn't play a forward defence.

He's going to be trying to, isn't he? He's going to be trying to get forward. Get that man in there. Boom, boom, out.

I just don't want him to be sat in that dressing room really overcomplicating batting. I think there's enough of us that have done that for many years and it gets to you. I think he's quite a simple player that needs to look at that ball to strike. I think he plays better when he does that.

Let's hear from the New Zealand camp now, and Glenn Phillips, who made that fine hundred today, is with Daniel Norcross.

Glenn, massive congratulations. A hundred, your first Test match hundred. Just give us an idea of what it felt like to raise your bat when it happened.

Yeah, it was obviously a special one. It's my dad's passing anniversary tomorrow, so that was pretty special. One for him. And yeah, Toby obviously to contribute for the boys as well was absolutely fantastic.

Have you been told that you're the third Kiwi to complete the set of T20 International, Hundred, ODI, and Test Match Hundred?

No, I haven't been told. You're the first to tell me. So that's, yeah, that's really cool. Obviously just trying to stick to my process, do my things, and the results are taking care of themselves. And, you know, just trying to take one day at a time.

Brendan McCullum and Martin Guptill are the other two. Brendan McCullum is here to watch it, but you have caused this team quite a lot of anxiety today because it was a great pugnacious knot. You came in with the team in a bit of bother. Did you deliberately take the attack to England both last night and again this morning?

Not necessarily. I think I was trying to stick to my process and let— make sure the other boys did what they do as well. Obviously, partnerships are incredibly key and just trying to pounce on any misses that were given my way, ideally. But obviously, as As Josh showed last night, it was very much about playing the ball on its merit. And then this morning again, I'm just trying to do the same thing, and I got a few away.

Can you give us a little insight into what that was like last night against Joshua Archer? Because it was thrilling to watch. You didn't back down, but my goodness, I mean, it was coming at your head every, every 2 minutes.

Yeah, obviously there was a lot of fun. Um, it was a great battle with him. Um, we've had one earlier a couple of years ago, which, uh, obviously definitely brings memories back. And yeah, no, he's definitely hit me on the body a fair few times now. So I think he's definitely got a lot of welts on my body over the last couple of years. So it was a bit of fun. It was fantastic. I guess that's what Test match cricket is all about, that fight and that drive and that competition out in the middle.

Occasional glancing blow to the helmet as well, I noticed. But now this match is set up really well for New Zealand.

You've—

I was gonna say bounced back, but you kind of had a dominant day.

Yeah, I think the bowlers have been fantastic today. We were probably a little bit wayward to start and maybe missed a little bit full. Obviously the bowlers don't necessarily try and miss full, but that was the case for a little bit, and I think they brought it back really well, especially the way Tessa and Smudge and Boar and KJ bowled during that middle period, especially after tea.

We—

I think we really pulled the strings back, and obviously we got a few wickets to make that day finish nicely.

Was that planned to Harry Brook, bringing the keeper up? Seems to really get him into his shell. Was that something you'd spotted in the Ashes or from where?

I think it was probably more pitch dependent today. There obviously is a little bit of nibble and up and down off a length when you try and hit the stump. So if we can try to keep the guys that like to move out of their crease in their crease. Obviously speaking as a batter myself, it's never comfortable to have a keeper up behind you. And maybe if that keeps them on the crease and allows that ball to nibble a little bit further before it hits their pads, that maybe brings those stumps into play a bit more. And I think Tessa and Smudge showed that today.

And lastly, with the game so well set up, you've got plenty ahead here, but what sort of target would you be looking to set England? There's still a few days left in this game, pitch doesn't seem to be deteriorating at the moment.

I think it's about taking it as long as possible, keeping England out in the dirt for as long as possible. And obviously that brings out the elements of fatigue as well. So hopefully if we can do that, but obviously we've got 4 wickets to take first, and then, you know, it really seems like one of those pitches where if we can take it long, take it into the back end of day 5, then hopefully that gives us the best chance.

Glenn, congratulations today, really well played.

Thank you very much.

Glenn Phillips, who made exactly 100, last man out today. England's leading scorer today was Emilio Gay with another half century. He made 53. He's also been speaking to Dan.

So, Emilio, second 50 in 3 innings. You'd rather take it to this Test cricket?

Yeah, it's obviously nice to contribute. Yeah, naturally my first feelings of disappointment to not continue. I've had a pretty good conversion rate of recent years with county cricket, so slightly disappointed I couldn't convert today and stay in there. But yeah, I think, you know, I would have taken that a couple of weeks ago. Leading into my first Test. So it's nice to contribute again and hopefully help the team build towards a decent score.

Quite contrasting conditions between Lord's and The Oval. I'm guessing you prefer these, don't you?

Yeah, not necessarily. I think every game brings its own challenges. I think the wicket naturally is probably better to bat on, of course, than Lord's. But yeah, I think there's a little bit more bounce in this wicket, which kind of, you know, you get value for your shots. But also if you play a loose shot or something, Nick's more likely to carry. So there's different challenges within this wicket. But I think the general feel is that the wicket is pretty good and I think New Zealand batted really well. So hopefully we can try and, you know, apply a bit more pressure tomorrow and build on the score.

Was your feeling that it was getting a bit better, the pitch, or staying much the same? I'm trying to look forward towards the back end of this game because England are going to be chasing.

Yeah.

Do you expect it to get worse, the conditions, or stay much as they are?

From my experience of the Oval, it's pretty true surfaces and they kind of, I feel like, stay pretty consistent throughout. We'll have to see how it pans out. I think if anything, it's more of a credit to the bowlers. New Zealand, I think, have been relentless in their lengths and how they've bowled. Obviously, Ducky came out and was blazing it and put them under pressure, but I'll be honest, I found it pretty tough to to put similar pressure back on. I had to absorb a little bit and try and wait and be patient for the balls to come in the right areas because I feel as though their attack is so relentless and they hit the areas so well. Even though it's a good wicket to bat on, I feel like they can make it look as though it's a little bit tough work. And then with the lights and the conditions and the cloud a little bit coming over in the afternoon, that probably made it a bit more difficult. But I just think it's such a good cricket wicket. I I struggle to see day 4, day 5, it be anything other than that.

You mentioned Ben Stocker, 36. I've got to ask you about the run-out. What's your recollection of it?

I've tried to forget about it, but obviously I walk into the change room and he was the first person I saw. So I apologized as many times as I could. But yeah, no, he just was very relaxed about it. I think almost the same thing happened before lunch. With me. I think I just picked out the wrong fielder. I think anyone on the park other than Nathan Smith— well, he might have got a bit closer, but yeah, that unfortunately happens. And yeah, I just try to forget about it as quick as I could. But yeah, I think the biggest disappointment was how well he was batting. He looked so, just so at ease. So that was naturally disappointing. But again, that's part of the game. And unfortunately, it was my fault. I take full responsibility. But you've got to try and forget about it and move on and score runs for your team.

And lastly, just a quick word on the morning session. It probably didn't go quite as well as England would have hoped. What's your feelings on that session?

Yeah, I think what we've spoke about is sticking to our plans, and if New Zealand play well, they play well. Um, I think naturally another day maybe we could have had a couple more. Um, you know, Jameson and Glenn putting that partnership together wasn't ideal, but they played really well, to be fair. And obviously Carl took a few knocks to the head and still managed to keep going forward and score runs. You have to commend that. And look, I think with it being an extra day than what I'm used to in county cricket and the pitch being good, there's more than enough time to win this game. We've just got to try and take it stage by stage. But yeah, credit to them. With our bowlers as well being quite, you know, fast and relentless in our own attack, I think you've got to commend any good batting rather than focus on maybe the bowling side of things.

Emilio, thanks very much. Congratulations on your half century today.

Thank you, thank you very much.

I mean, it's tough at the top of the order when you, you run out your partner. Alistair, what did you make of Emilio Gay today?

The same as I've made of him at Lord's. He looks like a proper opener at the top of the order. He's got a technique where he scores, and I keep going back to scoring in the right areas. It looks like he can be consistent. He'll be— he, he's quite right, he'd be disappointed getting out when he did, and It was a good bouncer, that being— they caught him by surprise. He got himself in a bit of a muddle.

Is that a worry though?

Well, it's again, it's one of those, isn't it? Everyone gets out to the short ball at some stage because it's a, it's a ball that can get you out. You don't want a reputation to get out of a short ball, and then that starts— that's where the, that's where the difference between international cricket and county cricket can— because people can do it and can expose that, that area. Um, I, I know he's going to be tested same as James Roo, who got out doing it. So that's, that is the thing. And the little, the one other thing was like, and he mentioned it, the intensity of the relentless nature, the difference between county cricket, international cricket. He's seen today on a good pitch, bowlers give you less to hit, they still give you stuff to hit. And he's, um, but I, I, up until that ball he got out to, I was, I thought he was handling well. And yeah, you might not have the same strike rate, there might be times where you do have to soak it up a little bit, and he was soaking it up. So he played well. I'm gutted he didn't go on.

He had to handle the run out as well.

Yeah, and, and you wouldn't have known actually here. The initial reaction you saw, and, and we heard on the stump mic certainly when you're on the TV, that how much the New Zealanders were reminding him of it for the next 15-20 minutes. As you, as you do, you're kind of a free target, um, from there. But he handled it well.

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Now, I'm looking forward to this. England going into this game with— they've got 3 debutants, of course, and that means 3 sets of nervous parents. And we've all been there. I remember my dear old dad here on my debut. For one, it's been a long wait because Jordan Cox was set to make his Test debut 2 years ago in New Zealand. His dad was in the queue at Heathrow Airport about to set off when he got the news that Cox had broken his finger training in the nets. In Queenstown. Stafford, it's lovely to meet you.

Lovely to meet you too.

Welcome. Wow, come on, how— What a day. A new, I know, a new Test-playing father and all that. I mean, it's very special, isn't it?

It is. Well, yesterday was a very emotional day for the whole family. So—

Who's here?

So his mum was here and his brother and his girlfriend.

So—

Yeah, so it was a good gathering.

Good gathering, yeah.

And it's all very different these days, because actually you get to go down. Go on the pitch.

Yes. To go on the pitch, yeah.

So how does the day start? I mean, you're not staying in the same hotel or anything.

No, no, no, we still have to get in on public transport, I'm afraid.

Okay.

But I actually did an Instagram post where I posted what I did during the day. So it's quite interesting. So traveled up on the train, got the underground with everyone else talking about the Test match. Yeah. And—

Up to Oval or Vauxhall.

Uh, into Vauxhall. Into Vauxhall again.

Yeah, nice little walk up.

A little walk up, yeah. And listening to everyone talking about Sonny Baker and Jordan Cox and James Roo.

And that, that must be amazing.

Well, it is, it is. And sometimes when the comments are flying around, you have to bite your tongue and, and focus on something else. But yes, it's an interesting—

what's that Cox doing? Exactly right.

Yeah, I'm sure that might be tomorrow.

And so, right, so you get to the ground and then, um, presumably you're kind of marshalled round, are you, to get out?

No, so the ECB, uh, very kindly look after us, uh, on the terrace yesterday, and then a lady, Laura, that, um, walks us down.

Right.

And meets a young man down there, and, uh, then we get ushered on into the huddle.

Yeah, it was a big huddle.

It was a big huddle.

It was like an army down there.

It was, yeah. Well, we had the, we had the Roos, and obviously, uh, Sonny Baker's parents as as well. So it was a nice day, it was an emotional day for all of us, I think.

So you're standing in that big circle, that's when the caps are presented, of course. So who presented Jordan with his?

So Nass, which was a nice touch, bearing in mind the Essex touch, he obviously got a little jibe in there about crossing the bridge and joining the right county from Kent.

That sounds like Nass.

Yes, yeah, so he got that in quite early, but that was a nice touch because Nass has known Jordan since he was about 13 when he played against his boys at Newhall. Oh, at school? At school, right. Okay, yeah, there was a final, under 15s 30-over final, and Jordan was a little slow to start off with but picked up the pace, shall we say. So, uh, he made an impression on Nasser that day.

Yeah, well, for that age to make an impression. So what else? It was all sort of patriotic stuff from Nasser. What does he, what does he say at moments like that, I wonder?

Well, he Obviously said to Jordan that he needed to thank his parents for all the hard graft that they helped him get there, but also the people from Kent that obviously helped him get there as well. He said there's a lot of people that have helped him get to that.

Yeah, exactly.

You know, um, I spoke to Gucci this morning and he said, you know, talent's one thing, but putting numbers on the board is the next— yeah, the next thing for Jordan to, to conquer. So hopefully, fingers crossed, yeah, he can make a start on that today or tomorrow, hopefully tomorrow.

Did you, um, did you speak to him after the presentation? I mean, was he briefly whisked away?

Yeah, it was, it's all very brief because you don't like to, um, you don't like to, uh, try encroach on their working time. You know, it's, there's always a defining line as a parent, isn't there, in terms of that's his job and you don't want to have any say in it. And it became very evident to me when he became a pro that that's his job and I shouldn't interfere with it. You know, as much as I might have a view on something, he said it's best kept as my own view. He wants to go about it in his way. Yeah, it's fair enough. And he's right because, you know, in the industry that I used to work in, if he was to come up to me and say, "Well, you should be doing that," or, "You should be doing this differently," I'd probably say, "Well, what's it got to do with you?" Exactly, what do you know about it? Exactly. So, you know, it's very much, that's his environment. Let's just leave him to get on and work it out.

But it is nice, and I guess you are obviously new to this, but there is a really nice environment with the families actually that there never used to be. The families are very welcome, aren't they? They are.

They look after us, they do.

And you all get to know each other.

Yes.

Which is really rather lovely.

Well, when you're traveling the world, it helps to have a friendly face in an airport or wherever you might be. Yes.

This story about New Zealand though, I mean, that must have been devastating, was it?

Because you've been planning for a while. It's a little bit different to what you said, but not a great deal different. But so I was sitting at home watching telly at 10 o'clock at night, bearing in mind that Jordan had rung me 2 hours before that from the team bus because they were playing a warm-up game against the President's XI.

In Queenstown, were they?

Yeah, I think it's This was when he was going to get his first test.

Right.

So that was a warm-up game against the President's XI in New Zealand, and the phone was ringing and my wife said, "Jordan's calling you." And I said, "Well, I don't think so because he's playing." And my bags were packed, ready to go, and he said, "You better hold off on coming out." And I said, "What's going on?" And he said, "I'm in an ambulance. I think I've broken my thumb." thumb. I'm like, oh. So that was— that was the end of that.

That's tough, isn't it?

I mean— He, to be brutally honest with you, he found that very difficult to come back from emotionally because he built that up because that was— he was going to get his Test cap and that's everything he strived for. And he knew that by breaking his finger that that was going to let someone else have the opportunity. If they took that opportunity, which Jacob did, and hats off to him. And Jordan has had to find a way of getting back. And I said, you know, I said at the time, what is meant to be is meant to be. I said, you know, you'll get your turn when the time is right.

Yeah, yeah.

And then when he had the side strain in Somerset—

And that was the next one.

That was the next one.

And it's quite an unusual injury too.

A very unusual injury, but the pitch dictated that Leach was going to bowl from one end and he had 9 players on one side of the pitch.

Offside.

Jordan had no alternative but to reverse sweep him and he overstretched on one and that's when he got his side strain, which was quite bizarre really. But, um, but today, you know, if you look at— if you in hindsight, here is the ideal place for him to make his debut because this is almost like his second home because playing for the Oval Invincibles of course. Yes, I mean, he knows the ground. Yeah, he knows the pitch, knows the dressing rooms. He knows everything. Yeah, you know, and he's staying in familiar hotel. Yes, so everything's familiar for him. So, you know, it was meant to be, wasn't it?

So, and how does it feel? I mean, you, you, you're a cricketer, weren't you? Or you're an umpire, didn't you?

I was still umpire.

Yeah, Kent.

Still on the league? Kent Premier League.

Yeah, it's a decent standard.

Yes.

Um, so therefore you— it must have been tempting to be involved in his cricket upbringing then, was it? I mean, or at what point did you stop? And I mean, his other coaches and the pros and so on getting— get involved.

Yeah, well, you tend to— well, I don't know, I can't speak for every other parent that gets involved, but, um, I— you tend to sit back and let him be guided by his coaches because they're more experienced than I am, will ever be. And, um, he He would always sit in the— so he went through the age groups from— he started at age 9 playing under-11s for Kent and went through the whole age group including the academy. And I used to take him and his mother used to take him up and down the country to various different places. And if he wanted to talk about it, we'd talk about it.

Yeah.

If he didn't want to talk about it, we didn't talk about it.

Yeah.

He would be the main instigator of that conversation. Right.

That's it. Well, that's That's quite something because you do see a lot of parents who kind of interfere, a bit overpowering.

Well, I think it's because they want their child to succeed. Yes. And there's a lot of people out there that want their child to succeed. And it's quite strange, Jordan had a very strange mentality when it came to playing because, and the coaches found it very strange as well, inasmuch as when he got out, he wasn't overly fussed. Right, okay. He would always say, "Well, there's another game next week. I'll get runs next week." Yeah. And he had that mentality. If he got out, you know, I remember vividly that I took him all the way to Norfolk to play in an Under-12s game. And he got a first bowler. And he walked off and he put his stuff in his bag and sat on the boundary. And I walked around and I said, "Everything okay?" And he said, "Yeah." He said, "There's another game next week." He said, "I'll get runs next week." I was like, well, for a 12-year-old kid.

Well, that's a really good attitude, isn't it? Yeah, yeah.

I think that's probably why he's got a lot of self— you know, he's half Australian, his mother's Australian.

Yes.

And I think that side of his DNA is Australian, so he's got a bit of a swagger about him.

Yeah, sure.

Naz said actually in the huddle that we had, he's got a bit of a swagger about the way he plays cricket. And he said, whatever you do, don't lose that, keep that going. Yeah, that's it. Because that's got you here.

Yeah, as long as he doesn't sort of go too far. I'm out. Yeah, it's perceived to be arrogance, isn't it?

A bit of a strut, a bit of a Viv Richards. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we all remember this.

Well, I hope Jordan scores as many, as many runs as Viv did. He's probably quite calm in there, is he?

I would think so. I think it will dawn on him when he walks out and he thinks, okay, let's just get bat on ball and, yeah, go from there.

And at what point, I mean, I often get asked this by parents, um, did you know, I mean, how many years ahead was he of his age group, if you like, his peers? So you actually think, actually, you know, he's, he's, he's going to be good. And I don't know, I remember, you know, I was playing for my school team at 14, um, you know, they're 18-year-olds, and that, that to me felt like the sort of gap, right, of You know, funny enough, his brother played, and he used to play in all the county age groups, his brother, who's 2 years ahead of him.

And unfortunately, he broke his collarbone and couldn't throw a ball in from a boundary after he broke it, so his days were numbered. But they were very— they are still very close. But Jordan used to play in Ashley's, his brother's, team, which was 2 years ahead of himself. And he was the best of the bunch. And his brother would say that, you know, when he was playing at Felsted, he plays 2 years above himself. And they played a final at Arendal, and he was playing 2 years ahead of himself, and he opened the batting, and he was just fine.

So that's the sort of difference, isn't there?

Yes.

Yeah, yeah. And for a modern young player then, there's always talk about, you know, obviously franchise cricket and the demands on them.

Yeah.

Jordan would still want to be a Test cricketer. I mean, if you had to say, what do you want to be?

That's an interest, that's a very interesting thought process. So we were about to have a conversation with Jordan over the next few weeks about what it is he wants out of life, because the life of a cricketer is quite short.

Yeah.

Um, and he has always maintained that having an England Test cap on his CV is what he wanted. And that is what he wanted.

Yes.

But the white ball stuff is very appealing. And don't get me wrong, that sets— will set him up for the rest of his life.

Absolutely. I mean, earn a great living.

There's a lot of money to be earned out there.

Yes, exactly.

But every child is going to be different. You look at his friend, Will Smead, that wanted to go white ball.

Yeah.

And he's come back now and doing red ball. And doing very well. But as you say, there's a lot of money to be earned in white ball cricket, isn't there? And it's very tempting. You know, when he went out to the IPL, I was against it. Right.

Because he didn't play a single game. Didn't play a game. No.

No.

But that must be tough.

His agent and Jordan were hell-bent. They said, look, since he's moved from Kent to Essex, in first-class cricket he's averaging 60 25. He has scored 1,600 runs over 2 years. Yeah, he's got nothing more to prove, he said, but he will learn more by being in that environment.

See, that's interesting, isn't it?

Then he will back here.

You're playing first-class cricket here. Yes. Is that a— yeah, I mean, in the same thing, wasn't it?

Yes. Yeah, yeah. So the move from Kent, which was heart-wrenching for Jordan, um, the move from Kent to Essex was a revelation for him because the first season he said he learned more in that first season from Dean Elgar than he had in the 2 or 3 years that he had at Kent playing senior cricket. And that has enabled him to start building an innings. Yeah, because Dean Elgar has obviously been around the circuit.

Absolutely.

Connection there as well. I read somewhere about him beating—

Yeah, he met, he met Virat the day before the Test.

That's quite something too.

Yeah, he made an impression in the IPL. He got on very well with the guys. He's a likable little chap. He's always— he's a practical joker.

I've not met him yet, by the way.

You've not?

No. So I'll get out there tomorrow.

I'll go and say hello. Go and say hello. But no, he's— him and Virat got on very well, and Virat gives a lot of information, and Jordan absorbs a lot of information. And he just went to Virat and said, look, what can I expect tomorrow?

Wow.

Is there a tempo? What? How should I go about things?

Yeah, well, good old Virat as well.

Yes, yeah, no, he lives in Notting Hill, so yeah, he's, um, Jordan gave him a call and said, could we meet up? And he was like, yeah, let's go, let's do it.

So, well, that was Stafford Cox, the father of England debutant Jordan, speaking to Agus here at The Oval. Check out the highlights on Today at the Test on BBC iPlayer, where you'll also find our series going inside the England camp at the T20 World Cup. But that's it for this episode of the TMS Podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode. Test Match Special is back on air for the third day's play between England and New Zealand, and we'll speak to you then.

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