“I’m Done” Stokes says no going back on retirement.

This BBC Podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. Formula 1 is all about precision, tiny margins, massive ambition, flat-out performance. And that's exactly why it's exciting to see Cadillac entering Formula 1, bringing an American luxury brand with performance pedigree onto the biggest stage in motorsport. But this isn't just about the grid. That same racing mindset, the obsession with engineering, the pursuit of perfection, lives in the Cadillac V-Series lineup, giving you the chance to experience the precision and performance of the grid on the open road. Cadillac V-Series. Distinctive luxury performance engineered to thrill. Discover the V-Series lineup at cadillac.com.

The ultimate cookout starts with the ultimate ingredients. At Whole Foods Market, No Antibiotics Ever Burgers and Kabobs are prepped and ready to throw on the grill. Fire up a juicy ribeye, grab creamy potato salad and savory flatbreads from the prepared foods department, and round it all out with 365 brand condiments, chips, and dips at everyday low prices. Whole Foods Market. Make your summer sizzle.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So, as expected, the international career of Ben Stokes finishes with defeat as New Zealand completed a 160 run win. England were bowled out for 212. Only Jamie Smith offered some resistance with 60. So it's New Zealand who complete a rare series win in England. To come, we'll get the thoughts of Michael Vaughan, Sir Alistair Cook, Stephen Finn, Andy Zoltzman, and Jeremy Coney. And we'll hear from Brendan McCullum, Joe Root, Tom Latham, and Darrell Mitchell. But there's only one place to start, and that's with Ben Stokes.

The TMS Podcast.

From BBC Radio 5 Live.

Pretty hard-fought game, you know, pretty tough one to be involved in. Obviously, you know, games going down to the 5th day, they always are, you know, physically and mentally tiring. And I think at the start of the game as well, with the heat that was around, I think, you know, the way that both teams stuck at it and just kept coming in in pretty testing conditions, I think was, you know, testament to the hard work and the commitment that both teams, you know, show towards playing the sport.

England's first innings a bit light again.

And well, no, I think we did pretty well to get up to the, you know, close to the total that, you know, New Zealand ended up putting on the board. And, you know, I think as the game gone on, you could see what the weather had done to the pitch. You know, it was pretty docile on the first sort of day and a half, and then when the heat started to bake the wicket, it started to become a little bit more up and down. And, you know, that's one of the great things about, you know, Test cricket is that, you know, every day is different to the one before it. And, you know, you probably know that it's going to be different for every day after that as well. So Look, conditions changed and, you know, I think, you know, having to adapt to those things, I think both teams did that pretty well. And I think looking back, obviously, at the start of the game, New Zealand being 320 for none was obviously a big part of it. But I thought the way that we were able to fight ourselves back into the game by being, you know, pretty relentless with the ball in both innings, you know, it was always going to be a difficult run chase on that wicket as it was just getting worse and worse to, you know, to be able to score on and had some balls in there with, you know, some pretty dangerous things flying around up and down. So, look, overall it's been a game of both teams just being able to stick in and then try and make it count when that opportunity presented itself.

You're gonna miss this?

I think I'm gonna miss everything to do with this, but, you know, I guess that's, you know, part of, I don't know, getting older, I guess.

You're 35.

Yeah, but there's lots of things that, you know, you are going to miss. There's some things that you're probably glad to maybe not have to do anymore. I'm not saying this is one of them, Aggers. But no, look, it's been a great ride. I've enjoyed every single minute of it. You know, when I first started out just as a player and as I slowly grew into more of a leadership role, then obviously over the last 4 and a half years, been able to be captain. It's been absolutely fantastic. It would have been great to have gone out with a series winner and a win, but you know, that's in a perfect world, and this world certainly isn't perfect. You know, I'm very happy and very pleased with what I've sort of managed to achieve as a player. And as, you know, as a captain, you always sort of feel like you want more. But I've given, you know, a lot of myself to the shirt. And yeah, it's a lot of sacrifice that have gone into it, not just myself but other people. And I guess all the emotions of knowing that you're not going to be doing this anymore, there's quite a few. But I've gone through them all. And yeah, there's sadness and but also there's a bit of excitement there today still as well.

Yeah, I think people— are you aware that people can't try to work out why you've done it as well, the timing and so on? I mean, are you aware of that sort of conversation?

Oh, I think, yeah, and I accept that people, you know, might be asking questions, but, um, you know, at the end of the day, this is a decision that I've taken, um, and I hope that people can respect that. But I do have an understanding that people might be scratching their heads, you know, wondering why. There could be many reasons, but I think the most important reason— I hope people can understand and respect that— is that I've taken decision because I feel it's the best one for me.

Yeah, of course. But there's nothing to do with the last couple of weeks, events the last couple of weeks have had anything to do with this?

I think, you know, again, yeah, there's been a series of unfortunate events happen which, you know, I'm sure over the next couple of weeks you'll be able to maybe decompress and say it's probably, you know, has it contributed? Maybe. But there's an overriding fact where over the last 6 to 12 months where I think that just everything that I've sort of done over a long period of time has taken its toll and As I said yesterday, being in this role as captain, as good as it is, as exciting it is, and as big an honor as it is, you know, there is some negative effects to doing it. And, you know, that's— I guess that's the unfortunate side that people don't always get to see. Of as good as it is, there are some moments that where it does test you, and sometimes you feel like you sort of— you've maybe just had enough of it.

Yeah, big one coming up. Are you really going to sit on the sofa next summer watching the Ashes from home?

I mean, I don't know how we've gone from yesterday, I guess, he asking me about the Ashes.

Pushing you on here, come on, um, don't flannel.

Are you really going to sit on the sofa and watch the Ashes over the next year? Um, I'm not sure of, you know, what's, what's physically— I won't be able to be in shape to be able to rock it out there and play.

You play for Durham, won't you?

Yes.

A little bit different. Look, I'm, I guess again, people can say what they want to say. They can have an opinion about everything they want to do. But I am incredibly content with everything right now. It's a decision that isn't, you know, you don't take lightly. It has taken a lot of time, spoken to a lot of people close to me. Of course, I'm done, mate, and I'm very happy. And I'll just, I think, be nice for that to just be understanding. That through everything that's gone on over the last couple of weeks, let's just not focus, focus on that too much. You know, I've come out and I'm happy and I've said it and I hope I've explained myself in a way that people can understand.

And there's a definite no, no, no bet of a hat like we had a couple of years ago.

No, sure, sure.

Okay, well, look, thank you for— I always say this, every captain, I've seen a few off now, Ben, and I'm sad that you're going now. Thank you for all the time you've given us. Not always easy, is it, these, these interviews? It's not. And thank you for the time and the effort you've always made. I do, I do appreciate it.

Thank you. No, I do. And look, I appreciate you've got a job to do, I've got a job to do. And, um, look, we've always had, we've had a few jousts over the years, I guess, but they've been fun.

I've always looked forward to them, and I'm sure you'll think— I think I'm 2-1 up.

Yeah, I'm not sure about that. Um, and I'm sure you'll have some other ones where you have a few jousts with. But again, look, you know, back and forth have been enjoyable and it's been part of the job. But, um, you know, we, I think we both respect and each other enough to know that we've both got a job to do.

Look after yourself. Hope you come and see us. Thank you. Cheers, Ben. There we go. Uh, lovely. There you are. I think lots of people listening to that as well, which is, which is really nice. Uh, well, it's always a bit, always a bit sad to say goodbye to a captain because you do— yeah, I mean, you've done it with me. You have a sort of, you know, a bit of a relationship goes, isn't it? And it is, it is hard. Up and down, it's tough, tough for them coming out when they've lost and got a you know, standing, talking from a microphone straight away. And he's always been good fun, it's always been challenging with Ben.

Yeah, yeah, he has. And I, I think he answered my, uh, fuel on the fire question. I don't think I'm going to go looking for anything.

I'm done.

Yeah, I think my log collection in my garden will stay in my garden. Uh, oh, let's see. But oh, he's been great, hasn't he? I mean, I think when you're, um, a captain of England, you, you've got to have more to your kind of strings than just playing. You've got to be able to understand the media, you've got to be able to talk, you've got to be able to talk yourself through a few tricky positions. You obviously have to explain a few times why your team have lost, and you've got to be a very good actor. You know, I think it proves that, you know, everyone's a human being. And when you've seen Ben Stokes saying he's done, he's gone, you know, it just shows you, you can be as tough, and he's as tough as any cricketer that's ever represented represented the Three Lions. But eventually, you know, everyone has a moment where you've just had enough, and it's obviously come for Ben Stokes now.

Yeah, 'I'm done, mate.' That kind of said it, didn't it?

Yeah, and there was no doubt about— when you look at him in the eyes, you can always tell, can't you? When you stood there looking someone in the eyes when they answer that question, um, and that can tell you if there's a bit of a glint there And he, by the way that he spoke and what he looked like when he said there, it makes me believe even more that that truly is the end. And the way that he, we've talked about his character, um, how about he latches on to situations and is impulsive on the pitch when making decisions, that makes him a brilliant player. Maybe that has happened off it with his decision to retire. And as soon as he's decided that that is what he believes is the right thing to do, he's done.

In a way, I think it's probably better for the team to know, you know, because it'll stop the likes of myself, you, Finney suddenly going, "Just keep going otherwise, don't you?" Yeah, it will, and I think if he can make that decision, and in a few months' time, let's just wait and see what happens, but at the end of this season, he'll no doubt go and play a few games for Durham, and if he says, "Look, I'm completely done," I think it'd be quite good for the England team in a way, because then they know. They know that they've got to try and create a cricket team without an incredible all-rounder. How are they going to fill that void? It'll be down to Marcus North, the selector, to try and work out a formula with obviously the coach. Let's see who the coach is in a few weeks' time. Who knows what's going to happen? But English cricket now will have to find a formula without— you know, if you look at, you know, in the '80s, both of them, it's quite easy to pick a team because you've got an incredible all-rounder. I was very fortunate to have Freddie Flintoff. And obviously over the last 10 years English cricket have had Ben Stokes. So your team almost picked itself.

It needs one, it needs one.

Yeah, well, it's a great opportunity for a load of young players. I can't think of any that stand out at the minute. I guess Rayan Ahmed would be a spinning all-rounder that has an opportunity. But, you know, it's an opportunity now for the team to move on without an incredible player, an incredible person. It's not just his game they're going to miss. It's that mentality. And I look around this England team and I think, 'Where's that mentality going to come from?' He said 'maybe' when I said, 'Did the last 2 weeks have an impact?' I would say definitely. You know, I mean, you know, I think he's been thinking for a while, but, you know, when you have done it for such a long period of time and you've given English cricket so much, and it probably that kind of vulnerability stage which he was at, when you need your whole team to back you, i.e., the whole of the ECB to suddenly get behind you, and they didn't, I would think that was the final nail.

Cookie, I don't know how much you heard of the Stokes interview there. Did you manage to get some of it or not?

Pretty much, he hasn't said anything different to what he said yesterday. And the way I enjoyed your little jousting, it was quite good fun at the end. But as far as coming back, no, I think, as you asked me at lunchtime, I don't think he is. I think generally, you know, as I said, he hasn't played a huge amount of cricket look at the last couple of months. So that stuff has been on his mind by the looks of things, and he's come back here and he hasn't felt the same. And he hasn't— and Australia, going away to Australia and losing like they did as a captain is a really hard place to come back from. And the energy that he puts into everything, to me, sounds like he's just had enough. And it's not just the energy for himself, it's the energy for the team, the empathy he has, you know, the care for the team he has, the care for his teammates. It's a— he properly has thrown himself into this job. So I'm not— I am not surprised. And, and this is a day to remember what he's done rather than trying to add more and more narratives that we like.

Anyway, we're trying to kill the narrative, I guess, in just getting absolute clarity. What have we got? We've got, uh, Joffre Archer's Player of the Series for England, Nathan Smith for New Zealand. Got my eye on Tom Latham over there because he's only the fourth, only the fourth New Zealand team to come here and to do this. So it's really quite very, very significant indeed for his team. Congratulations, Tom. Well done. Only the fourth team to come here and do this. What does that mean to you?

Yeah, really special. I guess when you set out at the start of a tour, obviously the end goal is to, I guess, be in this position we are now. To me, it's the— I think the hard work that we've put in, you know, we're faced with a little bit of adversity in this Test match especially, but to come out and play our style and stick to our brand as best we can, to me that's the most pleasing thing. And I guess to be standing here now, yeah, I guess it makes it all worth it.

Yeah, I mean, a bit of adversity actually. You've been trying to stick a side together for most of the series.

Yeah, we have. But I guess, yeah, first couple of games, you know, we were right. But, you know, coming here, we had obviously 3 changes and then a concussion. Replacement bowler going down today, another bowler on half a leg, you know. So I guess that's just, I guess, moments you look back on and, you know, just really proud of the team effort. I think that's probably been the most pleasing thing. It's been different guys have put their hands up at different times. And you know that throughout a series is, you know, you do rely on your whole squad. And we've certainly seen that this series.

Yeah.

And to come back from Lord's, I remember talking to you then. I mean, it's a crazy game and what happened and little cricket afterwards to come back as you have. You must be really delighted. Yeah, I think like, yeah.

In terms of the result. Obviously didn't fall our way at Lord's, but, you know, I said after that game that we did a lot of good stuff, you know, throughout that Test match. And, you know, it was a bit of a flip of the coin in terms of, you know, which way the result could have gone. We obviously fell on the wrong side, but I think the way we were able to, I guess, come back and play our style at the Oval, and same here on a wicket that's, you know, it was reasonably flat, to, I guess, get as much out of it as we could. And And the guys, yeah, stood up over the last couple of days, which is really pleasing.

Well, they did. Just one more. I mean, I see Darrell Mitchell standing. I saw— I don't know how the camera homed in on his ribs up there, but they're horrible. That's a brave innings.

Yeah, yeah. I think, you know, someone like Darrell, I guess when situations get a little bit tricky, he always tends to stand up for us, which is, you know, a perfect scenario for him to come in. And I thought what him and Rakshan did yesterday today to be able to, I guess, settle the nerves in the dressing room, you know, throughout that first session, you know. Then for him to be able to kick on with the rest of the order, and for him to, I guess, bring up a milestone was, you know, obviously really special and a really important innings in the context of the game. So hence why he's standing there with, you know, the big champagne, which is great.

Well, you could have had it too. I mean, you must be delighted as captain as well to contribute like that with a really big hundred.

Yeah, I think anytime you win the toss and you decide to bat, yeah, I guess you want to set the tone. And, you know, it was very pleasing. Obviously been a little bit light of runs this series, but I guess when, you know, the team needed it, it was nice to be able to stand up and I guess make a significant contribution. And I guess more the partnership with Dev, I think, was probably the most pleasing thing to put the guys in a really good position. You know, probably would have been nice to kick on, you know, get a little bit more from the position we were, but I guess in the context of the game, you know, it was a really good partnership to set the tone. And yeah, obviously very pleased to Enjoy the rest of the day, Tom.

I'm sure you will. Thank you for speaking to us every time, by the way. Much appreciated. Congratulations, Tom Latham, captain of New Zealand. Oh, we've got a quick change.

Brendan—

New Zealand to New Zealand. Brendan McCullum, where do we start? Do you start with the result, I guess? Disappointing end to the series.

Yeah, obviously disappointing. Came in with high hopes and going 1-0 up in the series, we were very confident that we're going to be able to get a series result. But unfortunately, the relentlessness of the very good New Zealand side put us under pressure. We weren't able to sustain some of those moments throughout, which, which is a reflection from our point of view. And ultimately we're just a bit outclassed towards the end.

Yeah.

Did the pitch and conditions create the, the, that sort of chase, if you like, last night and the rather unusual approach to chasing down a big target?

Yeah, look, it was definitely situational, I guess, from our point of view. We felt we were quite a long way behind the game with the pitch deteriorating the way it was, and obviously going to be faced with the trickiest batting conditions on day 5 as well. We also thought and felt that scoring was going to be incredibly difficult once the ball got soft, and to be able to try and maintain a cruising speed which would be required on the last day, if we weren't able to eat into the target enough last night, was going to be very difficult. So we obviously didn't want to be 4 down last night, but I thought the approach to try and take out as much of the chase as we possibly could last night and then hopefully be able to give ourselves an opportunity today. But, you know, in the end, a couple of direct hit run-outs as well didn't help. But, you know, again, it was sort of— we were a long way behind the game, so we had to to try and find a way to be able to pivot and hopefully be able to come out with the result. But we weren't able to do it. We were beaten by a better side.

Right. Ben Stokes, Brendan, were you surprised by his decision?

Oh, look, surprised enough. Surprised would be the word. Stokes and I have been speaking a lot over the last couple of weeks, and I'm not going to go into those conversations. But when he tapped me on the shoulder yesterday morning when we got to the ground and said, Baz, I'm done. My first reaction was to try and talk him down and to try and slow things down a little bit.

You did try.

Yeah, of course I tried, but Stokesy had made up his mind. It became pretty, pretty obvious that he was keen to step away. And from there, I guess it sort of turned to just a bit sad, really, you know, sad because for 4 years we've worked intimately together and we've been through a lot together, you know. We started this journey and And we sort of tried to build and shape what we think is the right way forward for this cricket team and to try and help English cricket. And it became obvious that, you know, it hadn't been easy on Stokes. It's a long time to captain an international cricket team and the English team in particular, and the scrutiny and the pressures that come with it. But I'd rather look back on the fondness of our time together rather than sort of focus on anything else. Like, I think he was an inspiration to work with. I call him a good friend, and I wish him all the very best for the future.

Talk about the journey. Are you still on that journey, Brendan? Do you want to carry on?

Yeah, of course I do. My commitment to English cricket has never wavered. I firmly believe in the direction that we can get this team to take, and this is a disappointing result. Because we would love to have been able to get the right result in this series and show some of the improvements that we had tried to implement from Australia. I thought Lords was an excellent example of that. The second Test match was clearly difficult, and in this Test match we had our chances whilst not being able to get across the line. But I'm excited about the level of talent which sits within English cricket. I'm very confident in the direction that we need to go and what changes are needed to be made. And how we keep improving. And with that, you know, the enthusiasm for the job, it doesn't waver.

How about the new captain? I mean, you've even sat and thought up there about that and what the process might be to who that new captain will be.

Yeah, look, we've got lots of options, right? There's a lot of good leaders within the side and lots of guys who will, I'm sure, do a fabulous job when the time comes. But I think for now it's just a matter of us trying to enjoy Ben's last day as as England captain. And then over the coming days, weeks, we'll start to put some plans in place there. But for now, I just wanted to kind of focus on Ben and everything he's achieved for English cricket. He wore his heart on his sleeve throughout his entire time, not just as a player, but even more so over the last 4 years as a captain. And we want to make sure that he enjoys his final day in this dressing room as England Test captain.

Just the last one for me, Brendan. This was going to be a reset, wasn't it, this series? You know, try and put things right and on track again. You've lost the series, there's been off-the-field stuff. Do you think you have reset and gone forward? You've lost the captain, most influential player. Where do you think English cricket stands now as opposed to the first day of this series?

I think we've got to admit that we made some mistakes throughout the series and ultimately didn't didn't get what we came for, which was a series win. You know, it's been a bit going on off the field. There's been lots where we've had lots of things we've had to deal with off the field. And, you know, some of those things can be, can be quite big distractions. And one thing I was proud of is that the guys were actually able to still galvanize as a unit and stay close as a unit. And I thought that would give us our best opportunity in the series. We weren't quite able to get there, but there is some good stuff. And, you know, I still believe that we have a firm direction of what we're wanting to do and how we're wanting to play and what we're wanting to achieve. And just because you haven't won doesn't necessarily mean that those things are wrong. I think we will continue to look to improve, we'll continue to look to evolve, continue to look to— whilst having our identity, keep progressing and improving and ultimately become a better cricket team. And I'm excited about what that looks like. And as I say, my affection and enthusiasm for the job hasn't wavered, and I'm excited about what the future holds.

Brendan, thank you for talking to us. I'll see you at the next one. Brendan McCullum, England's coach. Well, his enthusiasm for the job remains. No question of anything changing there, at least from his perspective, Michael.

Yeah, we'll wait and see. I mean, let's let the dust settle. But you know, the batting last night has been a continuous trend across the last 4 and a bit years. Nothing seems to have changed in terms of the smartness required in the key moments in Test match cricket. In the winter, they got a little bit of a leeway of maybe that was the time to make the change, but I've seen enough to suggest that the coaching team here are not getting the maximum out of this team. You know, we saw that last night. It's been dumb cricket for for too long and for England to really get back on track. No Ben Stokes. Let's see who's going to be the captain. We talked about the reset and the reset happened in a way, but it didn't happen in terms of any changes. And I just can't see how, you know, the team move forward without a change because the style of cricket required to be the best team in the world is not the style that we saw last night. What we saw in Perth, what we saw against India at the Oval. Last year, what we've seen for a couple of years. And if England Cricket desperately want to be the best team in the world, I believe there'll be better coaches out there to maximize more out of this team.

He also said that there are a lot of natural leaders in that team, and I asked him about, um, the new captain. So we, we've talked about Brooker, we've talked about Root, but I, I'm wondering who else he might, he might have in mind.

Cookie?

Yes, Jacob Bessel's captain to they pushed him forward for a T20 captain, uh, role in Ireland. I, I think where we're at now is actually after the initial burst of like Stokes and McCullum, you know, we, we then had, uh, we've now had a period of, of results going downhill. That is, you know, 2 wins out of— I want to say 11, is that right? 2 out of 10. And I don't quite know what's happened just before that as well. So they're on a downward, downward spiral and What we— Australia is an incredibly hard place to go and play and win.

Do you agree with that, Finney?

I do, and I think that the question now is going to be how do you form a rock-solid bond between the new captain and the coach? And that's the question that's going to have to be asked by the hierarchy.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

The ultimate cookout starts with the ultimate ingredients. At Whole Foods Market, no antibiotics ever burgers and kebabs are prepped and ready to throw on the grill. Fire up a juicy ribeye, grab creamy potato salad and savory flatbreads from the prepared foods department, and round it all out with 365 brand condiments, chips, and dips at everyday low prices. Whole Foods Market, make your summer sizzle.

ODOO, providing tools for businesses across industries into one fully integrated platform. Whatever your business needs, ODOO is committed to providing it. Learn more at odo.com.

Right, here's the man of the match, and well played too. I, I've seen those ribs on the telly. If I, if I give you a quick— no, I'm not going to do that. They look sore.

I'm not sure you want to see my rig on the telly, so I don't know how that's—

we've seen it already.

I don't know how that's snuck up there. But, um, yeah, nice, nice to get the win and win the series.

That was a brave knock.

Ah, thank you. Yeah, no, it's— I guess it's just part of the job, isn't it, when you play Test cricket? Yeah, try and find ways to get the job done, whatever it might be. And yeah, nice to, nice to get the win.

Yeah, well, what does it mean? I said to Tom Latham about, you know, you're only the fourth New Zealand team ever to come here and to win, and that's, that's really significant.

Yeah, look, I guess you look at our history, we did it in '99, we 1-0 series before the Test Championship a few years ago. But I guess to come here and do it in a style that's true to us as Black Caps and as Kiwis is something we're really proud of. And it's gonna be a cool one to reflect on.

Yeah, there's a lot of talk about brands. I mean, England's attempting this brand. What is the Black Caps brand then? Is it just that fight?

Yeah, look, we're a small country down the bottom of the earth, and it's something that I guess we pride ourselves on is that, yeah, we just We get stuck into whatever's needed to be done and try and get the job done. Sometimes it's being pretty and sometimes it's getting dirty and doing the little things really well. So yeah, just really proud of this group. I think the way everyone stepped up at different parts of the series as well as the squad is really cool to see.

Yeah.

And just one about the future of Test cricket, really. I mean, here you are, you're winning, you're beating teams. There's always kind of New Zealand's lumped in with those. Well, the future of Test cricket in New Zealand, you know, kind of lumped in with the West Indies. Do you feel that as players or not? Are you constantly having to fight for Test cricket in New Zealand?

Look, for us, it's probably for people more powerful than us as players to decide, but for us, we just, we love playing for our country. We, we love competing across all three formats, and we've done it as a group for a long time now. So we'll just keep enjoying representing the Silver Fern in New Zealand. And yeah, what will be, will be in the future.

Daryl, it's lovely to talk to you.

Thank you.

Well played. That's a very brave innings. Daryl Mitchell. The man of the match. If you just talk about the New Zealand brand, if you like, because everything's a brand these days, Michael. We know what the England brand has tried to be, and it's, it's, well, it's obviously come unstuck again. You know, fighting, hard work, is that sort of stuff that actually— not rocket science, is it, Test cricket?

No, I mean, it isn't. And ultimately it's about winning. You know, New Zealand has now won 8 of the last 9 Test matches away from home, so they're not a team that can only play in their own backyard and They can get on the road, they can get on the plane, and they work away. I mean, as to mention, you know, they won last week by over 250 runs and this week by over 150. They've hammered England. You know, this is an England side that was at full strength this week, and New Zealand have got such resilience and just a get-up-and-go attitude that, you know, you lose Jameson, you lose Henry, you lose Glenn Phillips, and they just get on with it. You know, the toss was a good one to win. You know, they won a good toss and they maximized it with that fantastic opening partnership, but I'm sick and tired of hearing about brands. I just want winning cricket teams, you know. Your brand changes throughout the week, you know, because your brand might be aggressive. Conway and Latham, that first afternoon, they got the chance to be aggressive, so they took it. You know, Darrell Mitchell in the second innings, guess what he needed to do? He needed to dig in because he needed to bat a long period of time to wear the pitch down. He knew the tactic that England were throwing at him with the keeper stood up was quite a tricky one, and You know, that's Test match cricket.

All this— it's been flexible.

Well, that's what I'm saying. This, this, this Test team from England have given us a great ride. It's been great fun, but they don't win, and they don't win against the better teams. They've been exposed against India, they've been exposed against the Aussies, and now they've been exposed against a good New Zealand side in their own backyard, and lacking a number of top players. And at the time of need last night, when they threw up a tactical maneuver in Ben Stokes at the top of the order, no problem. So you get to 50 for 0, and then a really good team goes, we've actually won the moment, just hold your chips a little bit closer now. But we continuously, and have done with this Test match team, we just throw everything in, and then we lose 4 or 5 quick wickets and you lose the Test match. And you know, it's not just been last night, it's just been a continuous trend. And you know, English cricket has got to be brutally honest with itself. The T20 team got to the semi-final of the World Cup, but the last 5 T20 England teams in World Cups have made the semi-finals. So whichever combination you have as captain and coach, for the last 5 times in World Cups we've made the semi-final. You know, the 50-over team over the last couple of years, you can't tell me that's improved. You know, there's a lot of work to be done with the 50-over team. We were the world champions. Yeah, world champions to now just an okay 50-over team.

And the challenging few weeks too.

And the Test team has got our greatest batter at 4, a hugely talented batter at 5. We've got one of our greatest, if not cricketers, at number 6, Ben Duckett, who's a wonderful opening bat. We've got Geoffrey Archer, Josh Tong, Gus Atkinson. You know, English cricket has the talent, but to lose by 253 and by 150, I'm sorry, somewhere up at the hierarchy of the ECB, they've got to realize, they've got to realize it's unacceptable to keep losing Test matches, keep losing series. And if you lose against the better team because you get the wrong end of the conditions, you stick your hand up and say, look, were a little bit unfortunate. We gave them a little bit of a week last week because of the changes, so we weren't quite as harsh on them at the Oval because they had 5 new players in, 3 debutants, so you have to be patient with that. This was the week, this was the week where England arrived full strength and they had to produce the result, and they couldn't produce the result. So in my eyes, I can't see what's going to change going forward unless you change a bit of the backroom, a bit of the management, and we need the reset to start now. They've tried the reset after the Ashes. It hasn't worked.

No, it hasn't. They're in a worse state now than when they pressed the reset button.

Absolutely. So now is the reset. Ben's just said he ain't coming back, so you can park Ben Stokes. They've got to rebuild this England Test match team into something that's going to be very, very competitive. And they play Pakistan in a few weeks' time. They'll challenge England. You know, you'd expect England to win. We're at home, but we expected England to beat New Zealand. So don't be surprised if we lose that. Sue. Then go to South Africa, a quality side. Bangladesh after Christmas, and then it's pretty much into an Ashes series where Australia will arrive, and they'll have been planning for next year probably since the last Ashes series. So Andrew McDonald is a wonderful coach, a strategist, and they'll arrive next summer with a hugely experienced cricket team. And as we speak, we're 9 Test matches away from the Ashes. Could you sit here now and tell me what England's team is going to be? Australia will know their team pretty much now they will going into next summer. We've got absolutely no clue.

Do you think there'll be changes, Cookie? I mean, do you know how these things work? I mean, can a new captain come in and in the current structure and, and, and I don't know, click, click with the coach in the 4 years and, and actually produce a winning formula, do you think?

Well, I feel McCollum's like main method of coaching has been trying to take pressure off players, trying to play relaxed, be relaxed in the changing room, and I don't think he's going to change his ways. So whether— so as the hierarchy of the ECB are happy with that, then the captain will then fit in with that, with that mold. So that, that, they're the questions which the, the hierarchy need to answer. And think, because like, if Buchanan then changes who he is, what makes him different, which they loved at the beginning of it, then is he being authentic to himself? So this is where it's getting confusing. The bond between the captain and coach, quite clearly, I think, is something's definitely happened. And we've seen when you're not everything, when not everything's aligned, you see like results on the cricket field which show that, you know, to be really consistent, to be really good, everything has to be aligned. It doesn't— and it's not, it's not just aligned for a short period of time, it's aligned for a long period of time. And And it takes time to build the culture you need, the side you need, and the players to fit into that. So that's what I'm— that's what I think is the question to be answered. How brave are they? How brave are they going to be?

It's—

they've got it. This is what I told at the beginning. This is when— why you get paid the big bucks as a leadership group, because you make decisions which you're judged on in hindsight. And they made the big decision after the Ashes where the first time in history no one got moved on and the results haven't improved. So now we've lost the captain, so that's one— do you know what I mean? So it's— so your judgment on that decision hasn't improved. Now you're going to get judged on what you do now, and that's why I say they take a lot of money out.

We've actually lost the, the one person that we know improves the team, and that's Ben Stokes. Um, you know, you look at the course of the last few years of Baz McCullum's coaching kind of regime Pretty much every time it's got tough, there's been a message to the players to go out and do what they did last night. That's been his way. It's like freedom. At the start, when you've got all the senior players that have been playing for England for a period of time, I think he was a breath of fresh air to the likes of Broad, Anderson, Woakes, those kind of guys, Joe Root, that have been around for a while. And you can get a little bit tired of traveling the world and playing a certain way. I thought he brought the energy. You know, now he's got a really young set of players. They need coaching, and it can't be that that in a pressurized situation, the only way that you can coach is to create a vibe in the dressing room. You send your young players out. I mean, Dale Gay walked out last night at number 6, played a reverse sweep first ball. Seriously, I mean, it's just madness, and it can't be that all you do is— there's no consequence for performance. That's been a problem. Players have been allowed to pretty much get away with this method because the coach has allowed it to happen. Look, if English cricket wants to go on this roller coaster ride for a bit longer, I'll enjoy commentating on it because it's great fun, but if they want to be the best team in the world— and that's something I go back to Giles Clarke when he was the chairman of the ECB, he publicly said we're going to be the number one team in the world. I don't hear anything like that from this ECB. I hear lots about other stuff, but they never say publicly we are going to be in 4 years' time the number one cricket team in the world. If you set that goal, you have to go and get the best of the best, and at the minute I don't think we've We've got the best of the best.

Let's bring in Gerry McConigle. We're about to watch New Zealand celebrate the lifting of the trophy here. Tom Latham just giving his thoughts over there. We heard them earlier on. That's quite something, isn't it? You know, just the fourth, the fourth team to come, to come here and to win. You've done it, and what, what it means a lot, doesn't it?

It'll mean a lot to this team. Different side than we had, but, um, calmly resilient side. I think they play for each other. They care about each other, they grow up together actually. I've got families all around me every, you know, breakfast time and they're all together and all the families are growing up. So if someone doesn't have a good day, someone else fills the gap. And that's what I think we've seen over it. If you go through, that was Conway and it was Latham for a start, and then there's some runs scored, there's a run out by Nicholls, everyone has done something. If you start to look at Yes, the performances, then why New Zealand have put themselves into this place, and that's why they're standing up there basically.

Tom Latham has given Ben Stokes a big hug. He's paid tribute to him there, and now the winning captain of this series, Tom Latham of New Zealand, is going to get his hands on the trophy. There's some champagne ready to go as well. So he was talking about— there we go.

Not doing the hacker, are they?

That'd be too much to bear. No, I hope not. Anyway, uh, well, well done then. They do deserve it. And as he was saying, you know, patching teams together, the retirement of their best batsman after the first Test match, injured, you know, patching up bowlers here and so on. I mean, they've done it the hard way.

They have, they have. They've, they've had a second side here really, and certainly in the bowling ranks, haven't they? But as I say, someone drops out, someone comes in and does the job. And so it's great to see Smith getting the Player of the Series, really. 2 years ago he wasn't really playing a lot, but he's improved markedly in that time.

Does beating England, do you think, maintain interest in Test cricket? Oh, it keeps me going.

I know you do.

We love Test cricket.

I know you do. Don't look at me when you say that.

It's a pleasure. But I can't explain it more than that.

Breathe life into New Zealand Test cricket. I mean, people talk about, you know, New Zealand's always lumped with with the countries that, well, it's going to be the big three test crickets on the way out. It's only going to be Australia, England, and India. They'll never play test cricket again. But actually, the fact they come here and they beat England here, yeah, that kind of defeats that argument, doesn't it?

It kind of does, especially when you put it alongside going to India and beating them 3-nil, which wasn't long ago either.

Yeah, that was an amazing achievement.

And we're going to Australia shortly.

That could be tough. That's over Christmas, I think, isn't it? Oh, we'll wish you well because we're actually— we, we all keys. Thank you for your company this series as well, as always. There we are, Jeremy Cody, uh, part of our commentary team, of course. Right, okay, they've had their celebration in front of us here, uh, and gradually people are, are filing away. Uh, Andy Zoltzman's up there in the commentary box for a few last, a few last statistical thoughts. Andy?

Well, yeah, a rare home series defeat, uh, for England, just their third since 2012. The other two were in two-match series to New Zealand in 2021. Then you've got to go back to Sri Lanka in a two-test series in 2014. Only the sixth home series defeat England have had in their last 46 home series since the 2001 Ashes. So a great achievement for New Zealand. It's their second come-from-behind series win in their test history. They only previously did so in the 1999 series, uh, in England. It's the third series England have lost having taken the lead in the first test in the last 3 years. They did so in India in early 2024, in Pakistan later that year, and now at home against New Zealand. They only had one such series in the previous 23 years where they'd gone ahead and then, and then lost the series. Uh, just a couple of quick things on New Zealand's players. Daryl Mitchell in this match, 105 catches excluding wicketkeepers, only the 4th time any player's ever done that in a test in England. Joe Root did it once in 2015 15 on this ground against Australia, and the great Garfield sobers twice in his career. Nathan Smith, 16 wickets at 23, is the best series figures for New Zealand against England, uh, this millennium. Um, and, uh, so just looking at sort of Bazball as a whole, 49 Tests in total, 27 wins, 2 draws, and 20 defeats. But that what they achieved in that spectacular first year, year and a half, they've not been able to sustain. They won their first 3 series but only 3 of their last 10. That's excluding one-off Test matches. 4 drawn series, uh, in those 10, uh, and 3, uh, 3 defeats. Their last 10 Tests, as you said, 2 wins, 1 draw, 7 defeats. That's their worst 10-Test run since, uh, the last year of Joe Root's, uh, Joe Root's captaincy. And, um, overall, uh, looking at the, the runs per over, 4.45 over those 49 Tests. And to illustrate how unprecedented this approach was for, you know, and it's had successes and it's had numerous failures as well, particularly towards the end, um, that's 0.6 per over faster than any other team has scored over a 49-test sequence. That equates to around 50 runs per day of batting faster than any team has scored in the history of Test cricket. Um, in terms of the players going for those two key batters you mentioned, Joe Root and Harry Brook, Brook now 8 Tests without 100. That's the longest run of his, uh, his career. He's had 12 20-plus scores in that time but only one score over 60. Joe Root, his first series without a century, again excluding one-off Tests, since the Pakistan series late in 2022. He's had just 3 50-plus scores in his last 8 Tests, having been phenomenally productive over the previous 2 or 3 years. So a couple of slight concerns over England's two key batters. And, uh, yeah, all in all, looking back at the, the, the story of, of Bazball, the early successes were unable to sustain. When they started playing teams for the second or third time, those other teams had started to understand maybe how to neutralize England's approach, and they didn't have that experience in the bowling attack they had with Broad and Anderson and, and Woakes and Wood in that first, uh, that first, uh, glorious period. So yeah, a fascinating story that's maybe fizzled out to a slightly anticlimactic end.

Yeah, fair enough. Thank you, Andy. It's possible that we're going to snatch a word with Joe Root. Well, Joe, what was your reaction when you heard that Ben Stokes is going to retire?

An array of different emotions. Clearly he's someone I've played cricket with and against since being 12 years old, so probably my oldest friend in the game in that regard. Yeah, so clearly he's been forever present in my international career, you know, close friend, and just the things that he was able to achieve. I don't think there's any many players that can say they've made so many memorable moments and put themselves in those pressure moments and delivered as often and as frequently as he has for England. Remarkable career, a brilliant leader of men as well, and he'll clearly be sorely missed.

Of course. Did you try and talk him out of it at all?

Well, we obviously had a good conversation about it, but I think that should stay between the two of us. I know exactly what it's like to have the opportunity to captain England and the effect that it can have on you, and but also how hard it is to, you know, have to say goodbye to it. And it was nice to be able to talk that through with him and him to have someone that knows exactly what it feels like and has been through that before. But ultimately it's his decision and he's got to be able to, um, I guess just enjoy the rest of his career and whatever that looks like. And, um, you know, I hope that is exactly what happens now from this point onwards, that we can all remember what an incredible player and influence he's been on English cricket. And, um, you know, he can enjoy whatever he chooses to do next.

So typical that he got that with it yesterday.

It's the best Ben Stokes thing ever, innit? I mean, um, yeah, it's, uh, it sums him up perfectly, really.

Yeah, yeah. Where, where, with England now, and that's the question, with that huge hole, um, as captain, but also that, you know, as, as all-rounder, it's such a, such a massive position that has to be filled.

Yeah, I mean, um, clearly there's, there's things to work out down the line, but I think today and It should be about Ben and celebrating him and his career and everything that he's achieved. And, you know, as a team, we were so grateful for all of it he's done for English cricket. And, you know, I think that has to be the main focus. Clearly, there's things further down the line that need to be looked at by people that are in those positions.

Would you do the job again?

Like I say, I'm not looking past celebrating Ben's career and seeing where we land further down the track.

It's not a no though.

Like I said, today is— all my focus this week has been about trying to win this game and win this series, and it's bitterly disappointing that's not been the case, especially knowing that it's going to be Ben's last game. So more than anything, just want to make sure that he feels that, you know, it's something that he can remember fondly. And yeah, that's all that really matters at the minute.

Yeah, sure. Did it feel different? I mean, there was talk about, you know, there was a reset at the start of this series. I mean, did you feel on the back of that disappointing Ashes tour that it was a bit of a different feeling about the way things were done?

Um, yes and no. I mean, everyone was fully committed and invested in what we were trying to achieve, which was winning the series and how we were going to do it. And I thought we prepared very well. We were very clear on what they were going to throw at us and, um, you know, how we were going to break them down as a side. And just at times, I don't think we were able and good enough to match them. Which is very frustrating with the talent that we've got and the players we've got. Clearly it's been a very strange series with a lot of different players playing throughout 3 games. But, you know, we have to learn from some of the stuff that they did and learn from some of the things that we did as well, whether that be good or bad, and make sure we keep evolving as players and as a team and moving towards the next target, which is being absolutely ready for what Pakistan bring later on in the summer and being the better of those two sides.

Joe, thanks for talking to us. I hope you enjoy your afternoon with Ben. Thank you. So that's it for this Test series. Coming up, we've got the Women's Test against India, and of course there's a 3-Test series for England's men against Pakistan. But there's a busy week of live cricket ahead. Tomorrow is the ICC Women's T20 semi-final. That's from 2:15. That's Australia against the West Indies. On Wednesday, it's the first T20 between England's men and India from 5:15. Thursday, England's women against South Africa in the second women's T20 semifinal from 6:15. Thanks for listening.

Five Live Sports.

My favorite World Cup moment? It's the first World Cup I properly remember watching. Argentina '78. The ticker tape, Mario Kempes, Ari Hahn scoring goals from miles out. And always one of my favourite World Cup moments, Archie Gemmell's great goal for Scotland against the Dutch. What makes the World Cup such a special tournament is the atmosphere, the colour. It is a meeting of the nations and of people who love football. The People World Cup 2026.

Listen on BBC Sounds. How did a boy called Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos?

On Good, Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, MrBeast, made his fortune.

He's buried himself in a coffin for days, counted to 100,000 on camera, and even recreated Squid Games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet.

But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000.

So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism, or is he just the king of the attention economy?

Find out on Good Bad Billionaire.

Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.