Introducing... Sonny Baker

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk.

This is the story of the One. As head of maintenance at a concert.

Hall, he knows the show must always go on.

That's why he works behind the scenes.

Ensuring every light is working, the H.

Vac is humming and his facility shines.

With Grainger's supplies and solutions for every challenge he faces.

Plus 24. 7 customer support, his venue number never misses a beat. Call quickgranger.com or just stop by Granger.

For the ones who get it done.

This is the story of the 1. As a custodial supervisor at a high.

School, he knows that during cold and.

Flu season, germs spread fast.

It's why he partners with Granger to.

Stay fully stocked on the products and supplies he needs, from tissues to disinfectants to floor scrubbers, all so that he can help students, staff and teachers stay healthy and focused. Call 1-800-granger. Click granger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live. Hello, I'm Henry Moran. Welcome to the Test match special podcast. 22 year old fast bowler Sonny Baker could be the next big thing and could be in line for an England debut. He's been called out four squads as part of England's White Ball series against South Africa and Ireland in September. He's impressed in the hundred this year for Manchester Originals as well, celebrating his England call up with a hat trick as his side beat Northern superchargers at Old Trafford on Sunday. He's been sitting down for an in depth interview with BBC cricket writer Matt Henry. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

So sunny. I was going to start this talking about the hundred, but things have moved on since then. An England call up yesterday. Where were you when you found out? How did you find out?

I was actually at breakfast. Thankfully I'd got down a bit late so I was one of the only ones there, but I got a call from an unknown number and thinking I was going to be told I'd want an iPad or something and I was going to probably lose a load of money on my account. Yeah, I heard. Oh hi mate, it's Baz. I was originally a bit confused and then clocked like oh, oh, the Baz like right, okay. And then he said yeah, I want you to be involved in the South Africa one days and the Island T20 series. And I said to him, oh, I promise, I'm normally more talkative Than this. I'm just a bit lost for words. And he was like, yeah, I've heard. So I'm not sure how to take that, but I was pretty. It was pretty surreal experience and to be honest, I don't think it's all really sunk in yet, to be honest. It's a very. Yeah, obviously very special moment, but called my parents straight after. There's a coach from Somerset called Baz as well. So when I told my dad, oh, I've just spoken to Baz, he was like, oh, what did. What was he talking to you for? I was like, oh, no, Baz. So, yeah, it was very surreal experience and, yeah, very grateful.

Yeah. Did you tease the parents a little bit, was that. I've just spoken to Baz and see whether they worked out what that meant.

Absolutely no chance. I was straight in, dad. Well, I actually don't call my dad dad. Call him Bakes. But I was like, bakes, you won't believe this. I've just. I think I've been called up for England. Yeah, that feels weird saying that out loud again, but there we go. I don't think that's going to change, to be honest.

Yeah. So is it a surprise? I mean, you've obviously done well this summer. You got that England development contract last year. You must have known that England were thinking about you. But is it still a sense of surprise for it to have come this soon?

I mean. Yeah, I mean, you never really want to presume that anything's gonna happen. That's the thing. And I try really hard to take stuff one step at a time. I know it's a massive cliche and I always get quite a lot of chat from that, from my mates. I always say one thing, one step at a time, but I really do mean that I don't want to start thinking of stuff ahead. And, you know, as that mindset has shown, that stuff takes care of itself. When you just try and think about the now and, you know, just bowling to the next game and taking it bit by bit, that really, really does work. So to answer your question, was I surprised? I was. I was a little bit surprised. I didn't. I didn't really think about it, to be honest, because I was so focused on what we were doing in the. In the meantime. So, yes, short answer. Yes.

So the hundred, then. How have you found it? It's obviously been your. Well, can we call it a breakout tournament? I don't know. I don't know what you call it. You're nodding. So I'll take it like a breakout tournament for you. You've done, like so well in this few weeks. How have you found it? What's been that the highlight so far?

Oh, it's been amazing. Obviously, just to get playing opportunity makes a massive difference as that's shown this year. You know, Hampshire have shown a lot of faith in me, which has been awesome. Similarly to England Lions getting opportunities to play. And then again, Cat at Manchester has been just speaking to me throughout the whole of the blast, which has been amazing. Learned so much tactically through him and obviously working with Pop as well at Hampshire and now Killer at Manchester has been awesome just to get that opportunity to play. And I mean, that's what this competition is for, isn't it? It's to give people a chance to go and tear it up. And that's what I've been trying to do. But it's been very surreal bowling it, as I say, with my notebooks and stuff. We were talking about it just before this, writing notes on Steve Smith, thinking, am I actually going to be opening the Bowling at Steve Smith tomorrow? Really? Like, is this really happening right now? Seeing the bloke play on tv? I don't know how many times, but yeah, there we go.

We'll come back to the Notebook. So hold on to that. You opened, and you've mentioned this as well, opening with Jimi Anderson, you bowling from the Jimmy Anderson end. How has that relationship been so far and how was that experience and how is your relationship with Jimmy a legend, someone you must have grown up watching so much of? How has that been?

First of all, what a statement that is. Open the bowling with Jimmy Anderson from the Jimmy Anderson end. I mean, that's. Yeah, that says enough, doesn't it, really? But, yeah, Jimmy's been awesome, actually. I've been fairly conscious. I know I ask a lot of questions, so I've been trying to ease him into that and not just split AM straight away, but he's been really, really good with sharing information and. And yeah, I think I've done well not to bombard him, to be fair. I think I managed it pretty well. My temptation was obviously go straight in with thousands of questions, but I thought I'll be a bit more measured and take things bit by bit and more, ask around specific stuff that comes up in the moment. But yeah, he's been. He's been really good to talk to, obviously. Talked about his prep and stuff and, you know, longevity things, how he's kept going and what's worked for him. And he just says A lot of similar stuff that you've heard before but obviously just exemplifies it, really.

Yeah. How did the first meeting go? First time you met him, were you nervous then?

Yeah, 100%. I just, to be honest, it was just a load of small talk, really. I was really nervous. I didn't want to. I was expecting that he would have heard that I was going to ask him a lot of questions. So I was trying to put the feelers out of like, promise I'm not just gonna spray you, like I'm gonna leave you to do your own thing as well. I know you've gotta play the game as well. I'm not here just to spray you with load of questions. I'm not another interviewer, like, I'm just here to chat and learn as we go. But he really has been fantastic and, you know, good guy. I've enjoyed it.

Where does this reputation come from then? This reputation that you ask a million questions, is it a fair one? Do you admit that it is a. Have you always been like that?

Oh, absolutely. I mean, yeah, it's a fair one. That's why I was concerned about it getting round is because I do ask a lot of questions. I think earlier on in my career. I was talking to Pop about this yesterday, actually. He's a bowling coach, Hampshire, obviously. And we were saying how earlier on in my career, like when I was at Brave, I think I just asked not asked questions for the sake of asking them, but I sort of didn't know what answers I was trying to get, if that makes sense. I would just ask things to try and collect all the information that I possibly could to think, oh, I might use this in the future. Whereas I think as I've learned a bit more, I've probably got more specific with my questions. So I need to know this bit of information. Can we have a conversation about this specific topic and then try and work towards what answer I'm looking to get, if that makes sense. But yeah, the reputation of asking questions is very much fair. So I'll put my hands up and say, yep, fair enough, I don't mind.

Would there be an example of when that sort of worked for you this summer, a question maybe you've asked and you've got an answer that has been like that you feel like you've taken into a game and has gone, well.

Wow, that's a great question. Obviously there's lots of examples of tactical stuff. I mean, some of the conversations I've had with Kat as well, following games, for example, Essex obviously didn't go the way that we wanted it to. They chased down a lot. I'm not exactly sure how many it was, but I think my first over went for 19 and actually bowled pretty well, like based on the plans we had, analysis wise, like I was hitting the green box, so to speak. Like two balls, top of fourth stump, top of fifth stump. But Walt just cleared his front dog and slapped him over mid wicket, which is fairly humbling. But then Cat said, well, I mean they were chasing nearly 200, mate. Like they were obviously going to come out of the blocks flying. So I don't mind giving them one. Having one go at bowling the stock standard, starting with the new ball, swing it around corners, Happy days. But if you know a guy's going to come hard, you've got to have a plan in mind of what to do. And I think I was probably just a couple of balls late on that, where. Or maybe one ball late on that. First ball's fine. Good shot. Second ball, same area, another similar shot. You're like, okay, well now I probably need to mix my pace or go to Mallorca or do something different. And getting yourself ahead of the. Ahead of the rate in the over would always be a good thing. So starting with your best ball of if I want a dot because I know they're going to come hard, I might mix my pace straight away because that's the last thing people are going to expect if you're someone who bowls 91 hours. Oh, why is this 72 mile an hour off cutter about? So, yeah, I think that was probably the biggest tactical learning is more what are they actually trying to look to do before you even start rather than waiting and being reactive. So that was probably a good conversation I had with Cat specifically. But there'll be lots of different examples of that. That's just probably one I've come up off at the top of my head.

Was that spell against David Warner those first 10 balls the most fun you've had this summer?

Oh, I mean, similarly pretty surreal. And I mean, I can't really complain. As I said, he's been one of the best batters in the world for a long time. And you know, to bowl like that and have the ball swinging that way over the wicket, cross him. Yeah, pretty surreal.

So definitely was there much response? Because you. I sense for someone who likes to get in the battle with him, was he giving anything back out there?

I've never been. Am I giving David Warner any chat? He would take me down similarly to Johnny, I Just leave him alone. Like, I know he's a guy who gets real fizzed up for the competition and similarly has also been one of the best white ball batters in the world for a long time. Played in the ipl, I don't know how many times, both of them. So, you know, obviously a lot of respect there from someone who's not done a great deal yet.

So.

So, yeah, dishing out chat's probably not the play, I don't think. Just leave them to it. I don't mind having a smile and a joke like I bowled a couple down leg side at Davey going pace off. And then he said something along the lines of, oh, I thought you were going to go three on the bump there after I bowled a Yorker and it was like a dot ball or one, I think. And then I think I said, oh, yeah, I thought I was 2. I thought I was worried I was going to go three wides on the bump again. But yeah, they, yeah, they're guys who get fizzed up from competition. So, you know, some people, you're just better off leaving them alone. And those two are probably in that category, I'd say.

Yeah. The notebook then tell me, where did this start? So this is you take notes on every batter you face before you face them, after you face them, Is that right? When did that start firstly? And how was it? How has it come along since then?

To be honest, I think since I've started getting analysis on batters, I've written it down. I think probably part of that is just revision from school. You're used to writing stuff down and retaining information that way. And then probably once it started becoming a bit of a routine, it sort of built into, well, this is part of my prep now. This is what I do. I've got an analysis pack on guys from obviously the analysts we have. But I'll also compare that, like cross reference it with the notes that I've already got on people if I've played them before or. Because often the analysis is the same thing. Because if batters drastically change their game over two year period, that's a real good effort. Generally if guys are really strong hitting square, they'll still be really strong hitting square because that's their strength. Right. Or power hitters hit a certain way. Obviously sometimes people get better at certain things, but then you just adapt to the notes as you go. But I've just found it something that keeps me involved in the analysis stuff and really remember it enough that it's information that's on tap and not something that I'm battling and struggling to try and remember when I'm out there. Because that would be an absolute nightmare. If you're not really sure, oh, hang on a minute, was I meant to bowl wide or straight York? Was it this guy? And then you pick the wrong one because you weren't sure. You can't really justify that to yourself at the end of the game. Whereas if you're trying to bolster eight Yorkers and you miss and you gave six, you can live with that, especially if you know that's the percentage play. And yeah, similarly, I think probably while I was at Rockets the first year, was lucky enough to spend a lot of time with Wahab Riaz, but he was injured and I was realistically unlikely to play, but had just been pulled into. If someone else gets injured, give him a go, why not? Type thing, I think. And got the opportunity to ask him loads of questions, learn from him about reverse swing, about death, bowling plans, fields, ways he manages his body, how much. One of the things I've learned from him as well was trying to work out how far to go through the gears. I think barks and pop have really helped me understand what that actually meant when he was saying it. I don't think I understood that at the time. There's. Yeah, just other things like that that I write down in my notebook. Got all sorts of different things. Plans for winters, training plans, what I think I'm going to do with my time to try and use it most effectively. All sorts of stuff, to be honest. Loads of different things. Yeah, we were using it for cards the other day as well, so not the most efficient use of the notebook, but it was. Yeah, it was good fun.

Yeah. And I think Freddie Flintoff got, when he was Lions coach for the winter, had a bit of a word about it, didn't he? I think that you've said in an interview before it was not something he'd have used. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, well, I'm not sure. I wasn't around when Fred was playing and doing his analysis stuff. But yeah, I think he probably views the game slightly differently. I mean, he's probably changed now a little bit like his planning of the training camp we did in Abu Dhabi. I know it was obviously with the rest of the group as well, killer included in that. Scotty managing it really well, the snc. So obviously to plan something that diligently that doesn't happen by accident, that's a very deliberate process. And I think Fred deserves credit for his ability to do that. It was probably the best training camp I've ever been a part of. And some of the older experienced guys said similarly, that's the best thing they've been a part of as well. But yeah, I think. What was the quote he said we're very different characters or something like that, which people were like, oh, not sure quite how to take that. But I did ask him for clarification on that, I think at the time, and he was like, oh, I just meant by your notebook and stuff. We're just so different. It's really funny, two different people going about it differently. And I think he loves it, seems to get on really well. So no complaints my end.

Yeah, good. At the start of that Lions tour, if we go back to the winter, you'd obviously not played a professional first class game at that point. You played your first on that tour. Have there been additions? Exactly. That's how quickly things have changed. Were there additions that you've made to your notebook this summer? Maybe something about playing in Red Bull cricket? Or maybe it's to bowling at Steve Smith or Johnny bestow in the 100. Have there been a lot of additions you've made this summer? And could you let us into any of the secrets that you might have done?

I mean, to be fair, a lot of it isn't really a secret. It's just I've been talking a lot with Kyle Abbott about just being relentless and stingy and not allowing yourself to go for runs. I think there was a game where he bowled like 60 balls and 59 of them were dots in a row or something ridiculous like that. And I was just lucky enough to be bowling at the other end. And when there's pressure like that, someone's bound to get some poles at some stage and he probably deserved them. But I managed to pick up a few and that was the, that was the way of it, just keeping being relentless. Trying to bowl maidens, you know, 4Ds and tight leaves is pretty much the it's not a secret formula. Everyone knows how to do it. It's just the doing it part that's really difficult. So I think it's probably more personal things around what. What helps me be more accurate or what helps me get in the mindset of being more accurate rather than feeling the need to search for a wicket and trusting the process. And I don't think you can do that without having played. I think the biggest difference in the last year, to be honest, has been having playing opportunity because it makes Such a difference. Being able to learn things as you go. You can't really do that if you're not playing. I don't think. Or I didn't find that. I. Even with my notebook, even with asking thousands of questions. Until you've actually done it and you can use something as a point of reference, it's very difficult to have a real understanding of something like I can understand something conceptually without actually bringing it into practice. Because you've not done it, you've not got a reference point. So I think the main thing is just having more reference points now and being able to have examples of, you know, Vincy trusting you to bowl the first over of a T20, Vincy trusting you to bowl the last over of a T20 or the 19th or when we're, we need a wicket, we need to close up the pressure now and bowl you. Or being in a Red Bull situation where, you know, things have gone a bit flat. Can you change the momentum of the game then? Who doesn't want to do that? Right. Sounds so fun. Sounds great. Like just being given those opportunities is probably been the biggest difference, I think.

The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5. At the BBC we go further so you see clearer with a subscription to BBC.com, you get unlimited articles and videos, hundreds of ad free podcasts and the BBC News Channel streaming live 247 from less than a dollar a week for your first year. Read, watch and listen to trusted independent journalism and storytelling. It all starts with a subscription to BBC.com find out more@BBC.com unlimited.

I'm going to throw a stat at you. Only Joffre Archer has bowled more balls over 87 mph than you in the hundred this year. Firstly, did you know it? Because I know you are one for these things and secondly, what do you make of that?

Did not know that. I mean, yeah, Joffre obviously was bowling the speed of light the other game against the Phoenix I saw he was, I think there was like top 10 fastest balls and then suddenly about 10 balls later, I think he had 9 of the 10 fastest balls. 93 point something. And then Gliese obviously at 94 the other day. So there's some guys cranking it up, which is good fun. But yeah, I'm not sure what to take into that. Happy, happy days. Happy with that. Everything about. What's that 140k on 787. Yeah, that's. I'll take that for sure.

I know you've spoken in the past about unashamedly you enjoy and want to be the person who bowls fast. That is a big part of you and your thing as a fastballer. Is that fair?

100%. I mean, it's what I find fun about the game. The injuries I've had have almost given me clarity on that. I think having had a fair few, obviously stress fractures in my back and stuff, it's somewhat part and parcel of the game, but still frustrating nevertheless when it does happen. Yeah, I mean, it's just what I find fun about it. It gave me that real clarity of, you know, do you want to be that guy who's bowling 80 mile an hour swingers, which obviously requires skill even still, there's nothing easier or harder about it. It's just not what I find fun. I enjoy, you know, having people's gloves in front of their helmet and trying to blow their hobs out. It's much more fun for me personally. I obviously still have a great amount of respect for the skill in the game and, you know, I'm someone who tries to swing the ball a lot in the power play as well. So, you know, I just want to try and have both of those skills. I don't see why you can't try and have both. If you, if you can give it a go, why not?

Have you always been able to bowl fast? Where do you think it comes from?

I think part of it is obviously you have to have an ability to bowl fast, but a lot of it is probably the training. I did a lot of stuff. I did some stuff with Stefan Jones early on, but Since I was 12, I was always decently quick. I'm not going to deny that I wasn't suddenly from bowling real slow to nowhere. That was always probably my advantage. I was a bit taller when I was younger. I was like nearly 6 foot, I think 15 or something. Had a bit of a size advantage on people and sort of thought that was going to wear off at some point. A few people told me it was going to wear off actually and then just sort of kept increasing pace as I went through. And I think a big part of it is just having a real desire to bowl fast. That makes a big difference, I think. I actually got asked a question by one of the kids at the oval and he said, oh, have you got any advice on bowling fast and how do you bowl so quick? It was like, well, a lot of it is the real desire to want to bowl fast because it's hard, right? Some days you're going to go for runs and think, God, it'd be so much easier if I just bowled 70 mile an hour nibblers like, oh, I could know where it was going. Balls wouldn't get edged for four because there's not enough pace. There wouldn't be enough pace in the ball for people who would have to smack it for it to go to the boundary and I'd go for a lot less and suddenly I wouldn't feel so rubbish about myself. But you also then wouldn't have those days where it starts reverse swinging and everyone's thinking, right, give this kid the ball, let's go. It's all very exciting, people coming out the bar to watch, like, oh, let's. So, you know, it's a trade off, isn't it? And one that I'm happy to make. I know that it's likely to come with more injuries. That's okay with me. I'm at peace with that. You know, I've had a few. Hopefully I'm due a bit of luck for a while. Touch wood. Touch wood. But yeah, I mean I think a big part of that is a desire to bolt fast and I think before Guyana was probably up there with the fastest. I'd bold. I can't remember what the speeds were. They're decent. I remember being decent. That's a lie. I can't remember what speeds were.

Just trying to do what is your top? What is the high? I know you know this. What is the highest speed you've been recorded at?

It was 148. It was the fastest I've been at. Don't know why. I don't know why I lied just then. The. Yeah, but the. I was doing a lot of training with a guy called Aaron Lewis in. In Australia, power and pace cricket were really great. They rehabbed me. I wasn't really sure that I was going to get a contract. I'd been told before I went to Australia, this is before the year before the Lions. I'm not really sure. We're not sure whether we're going to offer you anything. Basically, you know, I was rehabbing from a stress fracture. It was meant to be a non union which means the bone just won't heal at any stage. It will stay cracked forever basically. And then had a scan while I was over there after doing a load of rehab with him and obviously did some bits nutritionally as well, which was great. But the. Yeah, the bone had healed and came back and felt in great nick and then carried on doing his drills and stuff. I still do them now and I think that's probably played a big part in the ball speeds I've been able to get up to as well. And I've probably noticed that as I've been playing more and you get less opportunity to train, you gradually start dropping off a little bit. But whether that's just general systemic fatigue or what, I'm not sure. But yeah, we'll see. Hoping to crank it up at some point this tournament, that's for sure.

Is the science of fastballing something you've always been interested in? Is that like a bit of a fastballing nerd? To some extent. I can probably think of a better way of phrasing it, but you know what I mean.

Yeah, no, no insult taken at all. No offense taken. The. Yeah, definitely. I think I studied biology when I was younger. I've always been interested in human performance and general things that. Because when I was injured originally I was trying to get into Oxford unsuccessfully by the way, for biology, but gave me a decent crack and did a lot of extra reading and things. My main things were around human performance because I felt I got twice the bang for my buck in that. Even if this all doesn't work out, I haven't just read a load of books on, you know, human development for the sake of reading them. I've read stuff on things I find interesting and human performance and diet and, you know, food science and general nutrition stuff. Like what? Things I could get out of the reading and, you know, fast bowling stuff thereafter has been. Sorry, has been very similar. I've always found Steph's stuff really interesting. He was obviously at Wellington College when I was at King's, so it's close enough and he's good enough. He sent me a message actually after to say congratulations and obviously Aaron did as well and they were working together at one point. I think they've gone their separate ways now, which is cool. But yeah, those guys have both definitely supported me. Probably Aaron slightly more hands on, but yeah, still, Steph stuff conceptually has always been really interesting to me. Even still I don't really understand all of it. I'm not going to claim I do because I haven't done a qualification with him, having spoken to him a lot about it. But yeah, there's a lot.

And that's about the science of bowling.

Yes, definitely. Stephen Jones is like ball speed, sciencey stuff. I actually spent a bit of time with Shabazz from Speed camp as well. He does Pace Journal and stuff. I'm sure you've heard of him. He. Yeah, similarly talking to him about what his system, his framework looks like around assessing fast bowlers. What does he do? He's given me a lot of nutritional advice which has been really do think has made a difference. A guy called Pete Marcasciano works with him.

What tweaks have you made? Have you made any specific tweaks that you've made?

Yeah, I mean, all sorts of stuff. It's just around optimizing things, generally speaking, a lot of it. Have you heard of bone broth? It's quite gone a bit popular now, actually. But it's what I think made a big difference to my healing in my back. One of my mates actually has been injured. He plays for Gloucester at the minute he's got a stress fracture. He was talking to me about what I did nutritionally, how I was doing, you know, obviously talked about just having a rough time of it as well. I can fully empathize with that. And we're talking about bone broth and how it makes a bit of a difference. Got a package actually from a juice company recently, which is good. Hoping to work with them a bit more moving forward, which will be exciting. Got a sponsorship with the butchers at Hampshire as well. So nutritionally I've been.

So it's protein, is it. Is that what is needed? It's for the uneducated. Is that what it needs? Explain bone broth to me then.

Bone broth, it's just got. So you basically put bones in boiling water, same as like a. Like a slow cooker. You just basically dissolves the minerals out of the bone. So obviously you get collagen in there as well. If you've got any marrow in, or you chuck your root, veg or whatever in there, a bit of black pepper and one, it tastes quite nice. But two, the nutrients you get from it are specific to bone healing because they're obviously all the minerals that have been drained out of bone. So just meant to help speed up that process.

And how often a day are you taking that in? Or how often in a week or whatever.

I'll try and do it every day if I can. It's just obviously difficult with travel and stuff. It makes it harder. Similarly with juices and other. Being on point with nutrition while you're traveling is very difficult. But I try, try where I can. And, you know, you can live with it. If you're doing. If you're trying and you don't quite manage it, then you can live with it. But there's a restaurant called Pho that does bone broth as well, actually. Extra broth. So my girlfriend was up having a something noodle soup from there and I was like, oh, great, I'll just have a little extra bone broth, thanks very much. Which is really good. Obviously can't guarantee what they've put in it. So it's always a bit like, oh, is it actually bone broth or is it just chicken meat broth? I don't really know, hoping it's bone broth but, you know, you do what you can. I suppose there's some other packaged things you can get from bone broth and stuff. But yeah, that. And I think that's made quite a big difference to my, to my nutrition because touch wood so far. Actually, I'm not going to say that, but I've been, I've been more fortunate with injuries related to spines since. So who knows whether that's plays a part or it's placebo. Even if it is placebo and affects an effect. Right. So I'm not going to stop doing it, that's for sure.

As you've mentioned, Australia's like played quite a key part already in your career at young stage. Been there the last two winters. What have you learned about bowling there? And you're probably guessing the question that may then come after this.

Yeah, well, I mean that'd be good fun, wouldn't it? But the, the main thing around Australia would be there's pace and bounce. Obviously tracks are harder. So I was actually wasn't that much swing other than when I bowled like with a brand new ball, there wasn't that much swing. But similarly, bowling with the kookaburra in the games here you really notice a difference when the ball goes soft. So even when it's hard tracks, when the ball goes soft, it's tough. So it's either trying to be absolutely relentless with your line and have straighter fields and have guys caught in front or, you know, obviously still use your bouncer. Actually, I think Fred was talking about the line at which you can bow your bouncer once. The. I think he used the expression. I'm not sure if it was Fred, but let's say it was. It feels like the air's gone out of the ball type thing where it's like you're whacking it in and just going and looping over the batter to the keeper. You're like, oh, mate, come on, please. I promise that was 87 at hand. It's not even making it to keeper. Like, oh, especially, especially on some of the wickets we've played on in the Kookaburra stuff here, really notice that. So it's more the line around your bumpers. Like if you're doing that and it's shoulder high on fifth stump, guys are going to absolutely smack that over mid wicket. So it's pointless. Whereas if you're leg side of guys like over their left shoulder, you've got one chance of glove to short leg, another chance of a top edge on the way through. Sorry, chance on the top edge on the way through, then you got gloves, a short leg, then you can almost get them on the way back through. If it dies and glove again, they caught back up with it. So you give yourself more chance. And also you can control where the ball goes. So if I bolt, fifth stump guy could back away or try and guide it. If it's pace and bounce, they could try and take it down there. They could top edge it. It could go over the keeper, it could go anywhere. Whereas if I'm keeping it on the left hand side of their shoulder, obviously right and batter left shoulder. I know the ball's only realistically if I'm over the wicket, gonna go in that direction, over, over towards maybe in front of square round back to fine leg. So I can set a field for that. And I have an idea of where it's going. So yeah, I think just things like that and using, using my wobble seamer. I didn't really use wobble seam very much, but in the games I basically just learned it on the fly. Really. It was like, right, I have to do something with it because I can't swing it because the ball's not going to swing. And sometimes, to be honest, another big learning is sometimes it's not your fault. When the ball's not swinging like I used to, probably because I've done so much work on my wrist, get a bit annoyed and beat myself up a bit. I'm like, I've lost my wrist again. I'm not swinging it. It's like, well, no, mate, the ball's just 40 overs old and wet. Like you're not going to swing that. It's a rock. Don't bother, just try and bowl wobble seam. And if it hits the rope, it hits the rope great. And if it doesn't, just more important about where it's trying to do something from. So if you're smacking it into channel 4th stump, hard length in Oz bit of carry, guys can back foot nick glove behind. Happy days. Tough, tough scoring shot. Back foot punch. Whereas here especially the utilita has been more knee roll, try and get people come forward and hit it straight because it's more likely to nip back, stay low type thing than it will be blowing their gloves off and keep her taking it over the head, that's for sure. So, yeah, I think it's just being a bit more. Being a bit more accurate with what skill you're trying to deliver. I think that's the main thing is where is the ball doing something from? Because, you know, even when the ball's not doing anything, Kyle Abbott can go at 0.001 and over. That's great skill to have, right? Like you can control the rate, the game's not going anywhere and eventually batters are going to go, right, I've had enough of this. I'm taking this guy down. I'll nerf hit it straight up the chute. Cheers. See you later, bud. And then you end up with 4th of next to nothing. Like he has basically every game. So he's been exemplary with that.

And if it is needed this winter, the bowling in Australia, has there been a note made about Steve Smith from that experience bowling to him, whatever it may be? Is there a note in the notebook that you may refer back on if it's needed?

I'll refer back to notes on any batters. But yeah, I mean, obviously Steve Smith is one of the Red Bull goats, so it'd be definitely be coming back to that analysis if I end up using it. But I mean, let's just worry about the next few games first. I think let's not get too far ahead of ourselves. We've got a hundred to try and win and then South Africa series to try and win and then Ireland series. Try and win. Way before we think about any of all of that stuff. But I do appreciate the question, though.

Well, that was Sonny Baker with Matt Henry there. Really fascinating to learn a little bit more about the tearaway fast bowler. That's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure that you're subscribed so you never miss an episode, including things like the Nobles Cricket podcast with Kate Cross and World cup winner Alex Hartley. The latest episode includes a fascinating interview with the superstar Australian Elise Perry. Also, look out on BBC Sounds for tail enders with Greg James, Sir Jimmy Anderson and Felix White. And also stumped the World Surface Cricket program looking at the global game with Alison Mitchell, Charu Sharma and Jim Maxwell. Thanks so much for listening. We'll speak to you again soon. We are back with the Fantasy 606 podcast. Whoa, whoa, Chris. I've got to stop you there. We have changed our name this season to the FPL Podcast from BBC Sports. All you need to do is search for FPL and if you already subscribe to our podcast, you don't need to do anything at all. Chris, have a guess what the code to join the BBC Sport League is?

Was it 5e?

It's BBC FPL.

Oh yeah.

Come and play the game with us as we continue to teach Chris about Fantasy Premier League. The FBL Podcast from BBC Sports.

Listen on BBC Sounds.

At the BBC we go further so you see clearer. Through frontline reporting, global stories and local insights, we bring you closer to the world's news as it happens. And it starts with a subscription to BBC.com giving you unlimited articles and videos, ad free podcasts and the BBC News Channel streaming live 24. 7. Subscribe to trusted independent journalism from the BBC. Find out more@BBC.com join.