Is Buttler England's greatest white-ball player?

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

Pop quiz! What's in your kids' lunchbox? At Whole Foods Market, they've already done the studying. Over 300 food ingredients are banned from their shelves. No hydrogenated fats in the peanut butter and no high fructose corn syrup in the cookies. And for sandwiches, there are no synthetic nitrates or nitrites in any of their deli meat., so you can pack lunchboxes with peace of mind. Get back to school ready at Whole Foods Market.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Daniel Norcross. Welcome to the Test Match Special Podcast, behind the scenes at Trent Bridge, where the great and the good of TMS have descended for the BBC's TV commentary of the Hundred. But away from the action on the field, Jos Buttler has become the top run scorer in T20s across his whole career. So that includes Internationals, Franchise Leagues, The Blast, The Hundred and so on, taking over from Kyron Pollard. Butler averages over 35, has faced over 10,000 balls, has hit over 600 sixes and 1,348 fours. He gave his thoughts to Stephen Finn after breaking that record.

It feels great actually, yeah, I think, yeah, really proud of that. It's a pretty cool record to have and I think I've got the most runs out of anyone at this moment. There'll be, you know, someone will go past it one day. But yeah, I'm really pleased with that. I'm really enjoying my batting again at the moment and feeling really good. And yeah, obviously to score that volume of runs is great.

And just finally, of all of those T20 runs you've ever scored, what's your favorite innings?

Have you got a favorite, Noel?

Oh, that's a question on the spot. I think Do you know, my favourite would be the 100 recently against India, and also to the meaning of it and really needing those runs and after a bit of a fallow period in an England shirt to just all that and sort of know, yep, I can still do it. So that'd be my favourite.

That was Joss Buttler with Stephen Finn at Old Trafford, and I'm here at Trent Bridge. I found Dawid Milan. How are you, Dawid? You played under Joss Butler when you won that T20 World Cup out in Australia. Just give us a sort of flavor of what he was like, both as a sort of leader, a tactician, that sort of thing.

Yeah, he's— well, look, Joss is the batter we all know. As the leader, it's very— I wouldn't say less documented. I know he had his struggles towards the end, but if you look back to that 2020 World Cup, which we won in 2022 in Australia, I think him and Matthew Mott deserve a lot of credit for for that. I think Jos especially, we lost a close game against Ireland with rain. I was batting at the time and forgot about the Duckworth Lewis. I haven't said that on air before, but I forgot to look at the scoreboard, and with all my experience, and we lost by 5 runs. And the way Jos handled that, the way he was in the change room, he was quite firm after the game. I think Motty, from memory, tried to sort of smooth it over and say, oh, we, you know, we still got 'couple of games and things will go our way.' And Joss was just straight to the point. I remember it quite clearly. He had those angry eyes of his on, and he was straight to the point and said we weren't good enough. If we want to win this tournament, we need to pull our socks up and we need to be better in all the sort of the areas where we were poor. And I guess after that, we ended up going into the next couple of games and we had a really good win against New Zealand. We had a washout against Australia and we managed to get through to the playoffs. We had a good win against Sri Lanka as well. At the SCG, and it was amazing how Jos developed as a captain before that because he'd just taken over maybe middle of that year and we hadn't had a great start in T20 cricket. We'd lost quite a lot of games leading up to it, and then we went to Pakistan and he was actually really good in the sense that he allowed players to decide where they wanted to play, get prepped for that World Cup, do all the preparation we needed. And then after all of those things that went on behind the scenes where we hadn't won that game against Ireland, the way he pulled together as a leader was brilliant. And I still look back at that and think that the way him and Moti handled that loss against Ireland was the turning point in us winning. And we can talk about how he, how he took the initiative as a leader and won that semi-final. Him and Alex Hales played, you know, one of the best T20 innings as a partnership probably ever seen in, in a World Cup to win that game. But I think a lot of credit needs to go with how he managed those situations because it was very easy for not any other captain to just throw the towel in and just disappear. And he stood up as a leader.

I mean, that's fascinating, isn't it? Because we sort of see him as a kind of, not a laid-back figure, but as a quietly spoken guy. Piercing eyes, quietly spoken, but there's steel behind him, isn't there? And there has to be in order to, you don't score 14,800 runs without constantly questioning your own technique, your processes, and just having a pursuit of excellence.

Yeah, exactly. You have to have a bit of dog about you to become a professional cricketer and an international cricketer that plays for so long. This game knocks you back so often, and he's always had that inner steel. And yes, he is introverted, but he has a side of him that when he decides that that's coming out, you know, he expresses himself in, you know, the way he bats, he expresses himself, he expresses the way with how he looks at you. And every now and again when he does say a few things, you really feel the emotion that he's sending through to you with that. But yeah, look, he's the gentle giant, if you want to put it that the way we see him and the way all the public see him. But behind him, he has that inner steel that has made him the cricketer that he is.

And lastly, I mean, it sounds a very frivolous point to make, but it just made me think of it. You're talking about the gentleness of him. He's even got quite a gentle tell when he does that little shoulder wiggle. But what often comes straight off that shoulder wiggle is something truly murderous. The ball just goes sailing over the bowler's head.

Yeah, it is.

It was weird. He just randomly started doing it. I think he was I think it was to relax his shoulder, and then it's become sort of, you know, like it's associated with when he's going to go after you now. And as soon as he starts doing this little trigger with his shoulder and then his back foot starts going across, that's when you know as a bowler you're in trouble. And more often than not in his career, as proven by the numbers in his T20 career, that when he starts doing that, you just don't want to be bowling as a bowler.

Thanks, David.

Pleasure.

Uh, daijinsaigo, got Emilio Gay with me. Uh, Joss Butler today. Gone past Kyron Pollard, leading run scorer of all time in T20s. That is an incredible achievement. What have you got to do to get there?

Uh, well, I don't know. I think if I didn't know, I'd probably try it. But yeah, longevity is probably the hardest thing. Obviously it's incredibly hard to get there, but to stay there is one— to get there is one thing, to stay there is another. So I think it's skill over such a long period of time gets many bowlers. There's no blueprint on how to get him out. Obviously everyone knows how good he is at scooping and things like that, but he's got power and he's got brain behind it. So yeah, unbelievable.

I mean, you're a fair bit younger than Jos, so you've grown up watching him. Was he an inspiration to you? Was a 10-year-old Emilio watching Jos Butler going, I want to do that?

If I'm honest, I was more looking at Red Bull Cricket and thinking about how can I leave a ball or maybe blunt it down the ground. But yeah, no, of course when I've gone to try and bring in white ball into my game. I have looked at certain parts of his game, obviously. Of course, he's so good just from an entertainment factor. I love watching him bat.

And it's not just in T20 that he's excelled, of course. I mean, he does have Test match hundreds, but as an ODI cricketer, he's still massively important for England, isn't he?

Oh, massively. Yeah. The aura he has walking out to bat. I was watching the Lords ODI only a couple of months ago and walked out and got, I think, 30 or 40, if not many. But just walking out to bat, 4 down England, Josh Butler walks out to bat, and when you have that, it's just, as a bowler, demoralizing, I think. And you go, I have to get this right, otherwise it's going to all parts.

He's the third leading run scorer in T20 international history, behind only Rohit Sharma and Babar Azam. Is he the greatest England white ball player, or Or is he still sort of vying with Joe Root for that, do you think?

No, white ball cricket, he's the greatest in my opinion. 100%. I think Joe Root would admit that. I think in white ball cricket, he's— his T20 game, obviously 50-over, of course, is very good. But there's just a certain level of wow in his game in T20 cricket where it's like a bit like when you watch Chris Gayle or AB de Villiers. There is that next level where it's like, I don't know how to coach that or teach that. That is just— he's a bit of a freak.

Uh, I'm gonna leave you alone. I've been interrupting your food. Tell us, what are you actually eating?

Nando's Fino Pita with garlic bread, and there's no chips, so mac and cheese.

Other fast food is available. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Pop quiz: What's in your kids' lunchbox? At Whole Foods Market, they've already done the studying. Over 300 food ingredients are banned from their shelves. No hydrogenated fats in the peanut butter and no high fructose corn syrup in the cookies. And for sandwiches, there are no synthetic nitrates or nitrites in any of their deli meat. So you can pack lunchboxes with peace of mind. Get back to school ready at Whole Foods Market.

I've got Ebony Rayford-Brett alongside me, and Ebony, we have been so fortunate to live through the era of Jos Buttler, who today went past that 14,802 runs of Kyren Pollard. I mean, he has been the standout English T20 batter, hasn't he?

Yeah, look, he's provided so much entertainment. You know, he's just always had that 360 game. I think he's alongside that sort of era around Eoin Morgan where English cricket shifted. He is the person who most probably drove the style of batting, you know, reverse sweep, scoops, power. One of my favorite shots he does is, I don't see many people hit a Yorker for 6, and he's been able to achieve that. So I think he started that whole movement that we now see a lot of players come through and can be expressive. But the fact that he's still going, still looks fit, I feel like how many more runs can he have? You know, look, he's changed the game and it's brilliant to watch him make this milestone.

He also captained England to victory in a World Cup. And you know, I know Owen Morgan did that in 2019, but there are not many England captains out there who've won world titles, and he did so out in Australia. There's, there's one standout moment for me. I'm sure you remember it well. England against India, semi-final at Adelaide. They're set 170 to win. He goes out to bat with Alex Hales. I think the Indian journalists, the Indian fans thought they'd got more than enough Well, they knocked that off, did England, with 10 wickets to spare and 4 overs to spare. It was amazing.

Yeah, I remember that very well, Dan. You're right. It was one of those moments where, you know, it was the big moment, the big, you know, team in India. Everyone really thought that England were, you know, maybe had no chance really. But that's what he did so well. He was able to marshal a team over the line from behind the line, which wasn't something that was typically English. And to see that transition of how, you know, he was able to lead the team to drive that scorecard and just make all that impact is brilliant. So for me, the question is not so much what he's achieved now. It's like, what is left? Because I think players like him and Joe Root, you go, they could have another 3, 4, 5 years, who knows? Then what is possible, Dan? And I know you like to crunch numbers. Well, what could he achieve?

Well, what could he achieve? 16,000, 17,000? I mean, it's to win an IPL, perhaps. Is something that's still going to keep him going. To win another World Cup with England. I mean, I think there were concerns, weren't there? Maybe a year or so ago when his form was dipping and we saw a little bit of it actually in this year's T20 World Cup. But we now realize that that was a temporary blip because the way his form has come back in the last 3 months has been scintillating to watch.

Yeah. And even, you know, he had a tough 12 months or so, lost his father and you could see, you know, there was an impact there and there was a few special moments of late where his whole family were down when he was scoring down at Lord's and having such an impact. So you can see that he's had to really deal with the ups and downs of a career, the ups and downs of real life, and also continue to perform. So the fact that he's been able to weather those, come back and come back stronger just tells you what kind of character he is.

So is it possible that he might end up actually being the oldest ever England white ball player? Can we get, extract another 4 years out of him?

Yeah, I could see that. You know, I know because Jimmy Anderson, he wanted to— well, Jimmy Anderson's not giving it up, I feel like. We might see Ben Stokes in domestic cricket and you never know where he goes. I think this era are just fitter, very driven, and there's so many exciting possibilities. So I say at least another 3, 4 years, at least.

Hear, hear. I've got Ali Mitchell alongside me. Ali, you have been commentating on Jos Buttler since he was probably about 18 years old, haven't you?

Over the boundary at Taunton playing for Somerset. He made his T20 debut, didn't he, in 2009, but What a remarkable achievement. And what I think for me always stands out about Jos is his composure, his quiet nature in contrast with his explosive batting and how effortless he makes it look. And you look at the scoreboard and suddenly in a blink of an eye, he's racing towards 50 off barely any deliveries and the records, he just knocks them off, knocks them off, knocks them off. And this one tops the lot really, doesn't it? When you think of the fact he's done it for so many different teams, for England and the franchise teams, the domestic teams around the world in so many different conditions. It's a staggering achievement, really.

I mean, it's an incredibly competitive environment now. We've got these franchises all around the world and people are playing franchise cricket. You know, someone like David Miller seems to be playing almost 200 days a year. It's a bit of an exaggeration, but For Joss Butler to be top of the pile, was it— did you kind of think this when you first saw him all those years ago? Did you see his talent and think, I think that guy's going to be around for a very long time dominating the cricket scene?

No, I never think like that. But you saw him evolve and evolve pretty quickly and then getting into the England setup. And I think he was almost one of the first players to, from the England side certainly, to start maneuvering that ball 360. I remember doing an interview with him during COVID I think it was, about the art of 360 batting. And you know, you can recall in particular a time when you would start to see him do that little push-off. Now he steps sort of back to leg but then pushes off to create the space to the offside to then be able to flick it away behind or play sort of, you know, an early ramp shot before the dill scoop became a thing and before the ramp really became a thing. That Joss Butler was sort of doing that. It's just been a real pleasure to be able to watch somebody of that caliber in an England shirt primarily, and you know, also as captain leading the team to that T20 World Cup in 2022 was a huge Philip for him. And I think somebody of his caliber deserved to be a T20 World Cup winner and a T20 World Cup winning captain, no less as well. But yeah, his batting just phenomenal. So always come back to the fact that he's such a quietly spoken guy. It's at kind of complete odds with the explosiveness of the way he bats. So there maybe needs to be that internal calmness in order to deal with the pace of T20 cricket, to have that composure to strike the ball so cleanly.

And lastly, I mean, his fitness as well, because one of the things that people don't really comment on a lot is that he's kept wicket most of the time that he's been scoring these 14,800-odd runs. That means he's always in the game while they're fielding. And then ends up going out to bat, often opening the batting. I mean, that is a really tough physical gig, isn't it?

I think it makes him the supreme pro, doesn't it? The absolute professional to be able to look after your body, to be able to do both those skills and disciplines. And maybe, maybe keeping wicket helps him a little bit with his batting. He's in the ideal position, isn't he, to gauge the bowling, to know what the pitch is doing. You've got the best view in the house as a wicketkeeper. So perhaps maybe that, if that has helped him, he'd be the one to answer that. But yeah, to combine the skills, I think for me just puts him, you know, in a whole nother category. I mean, he's passed Kyren Pollard's record, not by many. I mean, we might see Pollard still got— he's still playing, isn't he? Still going to play in the CPL. So we might see a little bit of to and fro between the two of them. But yeah, I think the fact that he does keep wicket as well absolutely places him right at the top of the tree in my book.

Thanks, Hattie. Let's head back to Old Trafford where Stephen Finn has been speaking to another of Butler's teammates, England pace bowler Mark Wood.

Would he— where do we start with Jos Buttler?

I mean, top of the tree now, isn't he? He's right at the top. He's the main man, you know, played for a lot of years now. And you look at the guys that are on that list, some, you know, modern-day greats. And I don't think it'll be until Jos finishes that everyone will see how amazing he's been for England, how amazing he's been in franchise cricket. But yeah, for me, possibly our greatest ever white ball cricketer. Someone that's been reliable, dependable, and someone who has really capitalized the game in this country, or, you know, revolutionized the game in this country, where, you know, not everybody played the scoop shots, not everybody could blast the ball out the park, and he's made it cool. And everybody, you know, if you're a young kid nowadays, you want to be— who do you want to be like? You want to be like Jos Buttler.

What is it, do you think, that makes him so special? For me, it's the way that he's managed to evolve his game over time and keeps finding that motivation. You've shared dressing rooms very recently with him. What is it firsthand that makes him so special?

I think what makes him so special is the human side of him. I think, you know, he's obviously got this amazing talent and works very hard at cricket, but like, he's incredibly humble. Desperate to do well. Um, like you mentioned the word evolve, he never stands still, he wants to get better all the time. And I think the best bit about Josh, what makes him special, is he doesn't realize how good he is or how much the players think of him. I think he would, he would laugh it off or he'd brush it off, or he gets disappointment. And at times I can see, you can see with Josh because he gives it away with his eyes, he gets these red eyes on when he's angry or he's disappointed. And sometimes you can say that it's almost like the weight of the world is on his shoulders because, um, of the way that he's played, or maybe because he doesn't do as well as he'd like. But absolutely every game I've gone into, or every game I've gotten into with Joss and the team, I've always thought he's going to do well. And I— and sometimes I wish he had that belief about himself, which is why you asked me what's so special about him, is that he doesn't realize how good he is or how much his teammates think of him.

Or—

and I'm a pretty twitchy lad when I was at the bottom of the order. Even when number 1 and 2 guns in, I'm twitching at number 11. But every time someone like a Joe Root or someone like a Jos Buttler is at the crease, you feel a little bit better.

Do you think he'll be bothered by the fact that he's just become the leading T20 run scorer ever?

Nah, I don't. I honestly don't. Knowing Jos, I don't think he'd be bothered at all. You know him even better than me. How do you think? I mean, for me personally, I think he'll reflect on it when he's finished and think, that's pretty cool. But while he's playing, I don't think it'll bother him one bit. What do you think?

Yeah, I, I would tend to agree with that. I just think that he's so motivated in the short term, and I think one of the things that's made him a really great player is, um, his ability to just focus on what's next, like what's immediately in front of him. And I mean that from a game-by-game basis, but then when he's out there, um, in the middle, he seems able to just compute games in advance and kind of anticipate and understand what's going to come next. Is there one innings or one moment that you can remember? You were part— my mind immediately goes to World Cup semi-final that you guys won in 2022 against India at Adelaide. Is that his best ever T20 performance?

I certainly think that's right up there. I mean, that was— I mean, for me, you think of specific games and that is a personal performance. But that's a game that, because of his personal performance, I think of that game and think, wow, that was incredible. To be— I mean, I had no part in that, but to watch him and Hale's belt India, who are a superpower everywhere— I mean, that was in Australia as well. So amazing to watch. And the other one I really think of is a 50-over performance, um, with Joss, is when he and this, it relates to T20 as well because it's, it's the way that he plays. He got 100 at Sydney when, um, we were— we'd lost a couple of early wickets, and in typical Josh fashion, and the way that he does in the T20 as well, he took a few balls to get in, and then by the end he went ballistic. And then, and he could do that, and that just tells you what kind of player he is because he doesn't just do that in 20-over cricket, he does it in 50-over cricket where he could take a few balls to get in, and then once he's in You know, you miss a Yorker and he's got that sort of hockey, he can carve you over extra cover mid-off. He's also played a few shots recently off the back foot where he can hit you over like long on, and he hits the ball so crisp and pure. And another favorite of mine of Joss is the old salute to Cottrell. I mean, that was— I was at that match, and amazing that he, you know, Cottrell, I think he's just getting Morgan out when we're on about 400. I think Joss took offense that 'Look, why are you celebrating like that when we've been carting you around the park a little bit?' So he just gave him a little cheeky salute back. And I can remember asking Joss, I was like, 'So what were you thinking next ball?' He's like, 'Just don't get out, just don't get out.' Well, he didn't want to. But yeah, I think for me, an incredibly loyal person, and he's a hugely popular bloke within the group. I mean, you haven't played for a little bit and you're still really good friends with him. I haven't been amongst the team for a little bit, I'm great friends with him. So like across whoever has played with him, has always— he's been a hugely popular guy in the dressing room.

522 T20 matches, just shy of 15,000 runs, 9 hundreds including that run of hundreds that he went on in the IPL in the year where he scored 4 hundreds in an IPL season. So, um, it's crazy. And his relationship with the IPL I think has been trailblazing in the sense that he was one of the first people to go over there and play season after season and pioneer that for other young English players to do that after him, which I think has increased our capacity as a T20 international team.

And I think he'll not like me saying this because he's such a down-to-earth bloke, but he's made it cool for an Englishman. I think he's brought his own brand. Again, he'll hate me saying that, but like, Joss Butler as a brand you can associate it with the IBL. I certainly associate with the Pink of Rajasthan. I know he's played at other teams, but you think of where he did his damage in the Pink of Rajasthan. A lot of the times players in IBL move around teams, but sometimes, sometimes some of them stick or they have personalities that suit. And his brand is all over Rajasthan. And I know he's not there anymore, but I certainly think of him being there. And you know, now he's continued at Gujarat and he's played at other teams as well. But you know, he's made it cool for players to go there and realize that you can really make a name for yourself and really become a star on the world stage. Not just an international cricketer, where I know that he's a proud Englishman, he's won a World Cup and he's been a captain, but also you can make your name for yourself in franchise cricket and build your profile there.

Well, Jos Buttler is the leading T20 run scorer in history. He's gone past Kieron Pollard into the top spot. And there's plenty more to come.

Thanks to Woody and Finney for that, and thanks to you for listening to the Test Match Special podcast. Subscribe on BBC Sounds to get a notification every time we upload a new episode, and look out for the BBC's TV coverage of The Hundred. Just search for The Hundred on BBC iPlayer. Thanks very much for listening. We'll speak to you next time.

What's that saying about not letting the truth get in the way of a good story? Well, I'm Kyrill Prince, and I'm in the way. Online, I catch out some of the biggest names in football, holding their tall tales to account. But now the tables have turned. Can I spot the truth from the lies as those same guys who I try to catch try and catch me out? Roll the tapes. I'm Kyrill Prince, lie detector, on the Football Daily podcast. Listen on BBC Sounds.