"It's Cricket's turn now": all eyes on the 2026 Women's T20 World Cup

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. It's a huge summer for England's women. Hosting the T20 World Cup gets underway on the 12th of June, and Test Match Special will have ball-by-ball commentary of every single match of it. New Zealand, the reigning champions. England, the last time they hosted a World Cup, ended up winning the thing. Uh, and I'm delighted to say I'm alongside two members of that winning side in the form of Katherine Siver-Brunt and also Alex Hartley. So, uh, much to look forward to over the course of the next few weeks and months. And one thing we can say is that this is an England side where, although a different format, change is afoot. Just what is it, 3 debutants and 7 changes for the last time they played an international? I mean, it's a huge shift.

Yeah, it is. And it's, it's one that, you know, you look at how England played in that 50-over World Cup and, and it almost felt like a few changes were needed, and only because it felt like we need— England needed more batting and I think their bowling's been their strength for such a long period of time, and you know, you've got great bowlers sat on the sideline as well. But England need a little bit more with the bat, and I guess this is a huge opportunity to try and find those batters, and especially left-handed batters as well, in Greencock and Kemp.

Indeed. And, uh, and Catherine, I think one thing that we, that we knew from Charlotte Edwards' approach to leadership was that she was going to look at the county game, look at the performers, and give opportunities to players.

Yeah, she's not shy to do that, is she? She's not shy to say, if you go to your counties and score a lot of runs, that we'll just ignore you because we actually just like the England team as it is, and you know, they've got experience, and I'm just going to remember everything they did in the past. She's obviously showing us that she will live in the present, and if you score a lot of runs, Emma Lamb, which she did, you'll come into the fold and if you do that here, then you'll be a regular player here. But she's also not worried to— about changing that too. If somebody can't continue to play, to score those runs, Tammy Beaumont, you will go back out the squad and we'll bring someone in. So I think that's the right thing to do because there is such a thing as being in form and out of form, and you want to be playing with as many people as you possibly can who are in form. So you can't always just rely on what you used to be able to do. So it's, it's a ballsy call, but it's, it's, you know, a good one too.

I think that's the thing, isn't it, Alex, is you want that sense of jeopardy in your place. And for a long time, that's been a criticism of England.

Absolutely. I think for a long period of time, even when me and Catherine were playing, we knew what the starting 11 was going to be, and we definitely knew what the 15 were going to be. And then even over the last 2 or 3 years, you knew what the 15 was going to be, but You know, leading into this World Cup, we all knew that there was going to be some changes, you know, more changes to this ODI series. That's only a good thing, you know. It shows where women's cricket's at in the professionalism of the game now, how it's changed, how, you know, kids are coming out of school being in full-time athletes, being professional cricketers. They can almost go, right, okay, well, give it another 2 or 3 years, these kids are going to be so good at cricket because they've been doing it for so long. It's no wonder that the, the squads were the same for as long as they were because we weren't professional cricketers.

There's been quite a lot of chat, Katherine, about England's winter and, um, the fact they haven't played a match in over 6 months, 192 days between the, uh, the T— the 50-over World Cup semi-final and the opening international of this home summer. Uh, I mean, what has been going on behind the scenes? You will be more aware than most, being, uh, being married to the captain.

Yeah, it's difficult, isn't it? England is England. We have a very, very long winter. We have a 6-month, 7-month winter, and it's tragic. That's why everybody goes abroad. But luckily there has been, like, our most desired, most sought-after players have been playing cricket all winter. I should know that because I've been absolutely everywhere and I'm exhausted. But they've, like, Danny Wyatt, Nat Sciver-Brunt, they played Hobart Hurricanes. Both did brilliant. They won the tournament. Danny scored the most runs in the tournament. She's come back, continued that, scored 200s at county, um, you know, and that had a fantastic IPL again. Um, other people got opportunities. I thought Dani Gibson, Freya Kemp, Paige Schofield, they really shone out in the WBBL, and that was really positive. There's some really great positive stuff over that winter period from a select few, but it is sometimes always, you know, the most sought-after desired people, and some people do fall by the wayside on that, which is sad, but it is just the way it is. Reality. Yeah.

What really, really makes me laugh though is the fact that there's too much cricket, they need a break, everyone's playing too much cricket, there's too much cricket in the calendar, all these competitions, we can't possibly have another one. They've not played cricket for ages. Well, why are they not playing cricket? Well, who's winning here? Nobody's winning. They're playing too much cricket, they're not playing any cricket.

They've, they've trained a lot, they have trained a lot, they've done a lot of camps.

And what I'm saying is, it's like, from our side, it's they're either playing too much and now not playing, it's not, they're not playing enough. So I think it's like England can't help and the management can't help the way that the schedule has been.

Where do we get those games from?

When Lottie took over, the winter was already planned, it was already done, there was no series planned in there. And I think she's made the best out of a bad situation by taking everybody to South Africa and having those intersquad games. I think they were brilliant, you know, huge fitness camps, you know, they went to the army and they've all come together as a team. And I think she's trying to gel the team together, and she's trying to give them the cricket that they need leading into this World Cup.

How would you think they are as a, as a unit? How do you think that the winter has been in terms of that?

Um, generally, if you— Al, it's, it's quite a difficult period, isn't it? Mentally, it's mentally tough. Like, there's a lot of cold times outside, under 10 degrees. There's a lot of indoor training. It gets monotonous. It's rubbish. So those away trips that they get now, they get quite a lot they're really beneficial. I think there was meant to be more opportunity, but then obviously the war happened, flights were scarce, or there were— you know, we rely on the UAE for a lot of our cricket, a lot. So that was just taken out. And then obviously all the other places are booked. Yeah. So you can't just, you know, change away. So it's been— it has been a really difficult situation last 6 months. But I think the team as a whole, there's a lot of good things in there. There's also some difficult things in there. There's some people at the right stage, there's some people not, there's some people learning quickly, there's some people not. And so I think they're just at a point where they're all just trying to get those people to come together when it matters, and there's still a couple of months to do that. So things like the, you know, the Army 3-day camp, that's a goal towards that. Yeah, and it's going to be difficult because there's so many new faces, so many new people. You can't just get to know someone if you're from Somerset and you're from Durham. You can't just get to know someone in a 3-day camp. It's gotta, it's gotta grow. So we've got to give these girls room to, you know, get better, perform better. But I think our T20 squad, that's pretty nailed on, isn't it? They all know each other very well. There's a lot of experience in there. I don't think there's anything to worry about with that squad. It's more the squads here. For the ODIs and, and maybe beyond that.

But that's the point of this sort of slightly unusual, uh, squad, if you like, in terms of unfamiliar faces in the ODI series, because the key of this summer, of course, is the World Cup, and that has been the focus. It's a home World Cup, and England in T20 cricket have a massive opportunity to do something really special.

Absolutely. And I hope that England as a nation not only get behind the team— let's just say England lift that trophy on whatever day it is.

July 5th starts on June 12th. Every ball of every game available via the BBC.

There you go, July 5th. I'll be there. It's definitely in my calendar as a working day. But say England lift that trophy, I hope that the ECB capitalize on that in a way that didn't happen in 2017.

See, that's interesting because I think they've acknowledged that now.

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think, you know, 2017 could have been such a pivotal moment for women's cricket, and we talked about it.

Still not sour.

We've talked about it being a watershed moment, and, you know, the likes of could we have had a Women's Blast? But no, we kept with the KSL. We didn't have crowds, we didn't have people supporting us as teams. And obviously there were people there, there'll be people listening to this being like, I've been there from the start, but they're the anomaly. No, we want thousands of people coming to watch women's cricket like we get in The Hundred. And I think since then, and since the start of The Hundred, women's cricket has grown so much. The support is incredible. And we always talk about, Henry, 2020 2, 21 Ashes in Australia and England didn't win a game, nobody spoke about it at home. We were out there covering it and there was no newspaper coverage, not the fact England hadn't won a game. You go back a few years later, they don't win a game, it's everywhere. There's so much interest, there's so much scrutiny, but that's a good thing because people care about this England team.

Yeah, and that needs to be embraced. That scrutiny has to be embraced, enjoyed. And take me inside the difference, Katherine, of an England squad playing a home World Cup compared to playing any other series, or indeed a World Cup overseas? What, what is the difference?

Um, I guess, well, I can only speak personally. I guess my experience of that particular thing is I got a lot more energy from, um, from the crowd, from if anybody was bothered, if anybody was watching me. If, if no one was sort of at the ground, it's like you, you wonder what you're doing it for. You've only got your— you, you're doing it for yourself. I love this game. I'm going to do the best because I want to do the best, you know, for my family and me and, and this team. And then it's like when there's a crowd there, you've got— suddenly you've got a million eyes on you and you're like, there's the pressure I need, there's the fight, there's the spirit, and I need to tap into that energy. You need that to dig into a different level of yourself. And I think a lot of the girls will experience that this summer, and they'll either die a death and want to be— dig a hole and get in it, or they'll shine and thrive.

Because you go back to the Commonwealth Games of 2022 and England underperformed. They should have been in the top 3 and got the medal, but they didn't.

Crowd— I think, you know, that was the first time I've seen thousands and thousands of people watching women's cricket, whether it be England or not. Because what happens is you get tickets in a ballot and you go 'Oh, I've got the cricket, alright, we're popping down.' Edgebaston's completely full. And England did underperform, and the Commonwealth Games is forgotten about, really. You know, it was like, it was a weird time where the head coach was leaving and England didn't— it felt like that was like a real pivotal England, something has to change from this moment on.

There was a lot not right as well in the changing room, etc. So, yes, it was a strange development process for Feels like there's been a lot of that though, like building blocks to get, and even Lottie's having, you know, a hard time of it now.

But I think when you—

In what sense?

I guess with all the pressure on the fact that she's not been head coach. She's been a very successful coach, right? She had the Vipers, won everything. She had the Southern Brave, won everything. She went to Mumbai, won everything. She's just like this winner, winner, winner. So it's like, right, come, she's waited so long to be England coach. She wanted to wait for the right time. Because obviously she had to grieve for herself too. And she's in this role now, and it's just like everyone expects her to win everything, but she's got a big task on her hand because she had some retirees. You know, like the Kiwis, they're gonna have 3 players with about 900 caps between them retiring in one go. Boom. What are they going to do then? They're going to have a rebuild, 5, 6 years. It's going to be— that's gonna be hard. And I think that will happen with England too at some point. So Lottie's got—

I think that's already happened when you and Anya left.

Yeah, exactly. And she sort of got the beginning of that, didn't she?

So, and then now it'll happen again where Dani Wyatt-Hodge, Tammy Beaumont, Amy, Nat, Heather, they're all of a certain age, they're all the same age. And it's almost like, okay, well, we've got that, that core of 4 or 5 players that we're going to work around, but they can't play for the next 10 years. So you have to develop everybody else underneath them while you've still got Amy Jones, Nat Silver-Brunt, Tammy Beaumont, Dani Wyatt-Hodge in the, in the ranks. And then you sort of like Charlotte Edwards has bravely done here. Okay, Tammy's not scored runs, let's bring in a youngster, and it'll be the next keeper. Okay, can we give a keeper a couple of games? Jonesy, really sorry, but you might have to miss out on this series because we need to see somebody else keep. For the first time in what will be 30 years, feels like that we've not had Sarah Taylor or Amy Jones.

I suppose the question is, it's all well and good being on that development pathway, but with a home World Cup The onus is on winning. It's not about development, it's about the here and now, because it doesn't get bigger than a home World Cup.

That's true. And you know what, I am really positive about the squad this year. I've got a gut feeling that we are going to do very well, if not win. And I haven't felt that gut feeling for a long time. When we were— I made some ballsy predictions, very negatively thought out predictions, but I did. On the Ashes, I said we wouldn't win a point. And I said, um, in the World Cup in— where were we? Dubai.

Yeah, Dubai.

Um, that, that would be a shock knockout. I didn't predict what happened in the 50-over World Cup. That was a shock. But I— that's how I felt about that. I'm sad that I felt like that, but I did, and it did turn out that way. What I feel like now is completely different. I'm really excited about this squad, and I think they're going to go a long way. I think I've seen, I've been dying to see some changes from Freya Kemp, from Dani Gibson, especially those two, because I see Freya as like a nat, and Dani is just, we need so many world-class all-rounders. They're so important, and they've, you know, everybody's, Charlotte's all about the all-rounders.

You can tell by this team today.

No, it is so important, and that is, if you look at her teams, that's a recipe for us for success. And so that's why I have this gut feeling about how, how well they're going to do. I just think they are. And I think the vibe for it's good too.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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It's funny how you get those feelings. What was the feeling ahead of 2017?

I was so naive, Henry. I honestly, I was like this little pup that just played a series in the West Indies, and next minute you're at a home World Cup. I used to be shocked every single time my name was on a team sheet.

But what will these players be experiencing that is different about a home World Cup to, to anything else?

I think it's—

I think you want to fight harder.

Yeah. And the, the fans and the papers and the fact every games on the telly and on the radio, and there's just more people, there's just more eyes on you.

It felt like you, you should win. Like, we, we, it was almost like every time we went out, it was like, you can't lose.

Yeah, it's like we were actually here to win, but specifically for you.

But is that a benefit? And do you see in those— do you see in this team that that's a benefit?

I don't see why not. I think especially when you're looking at the T20 squad and all the experience that they've got there, I absolutely don't see why that wouldn't be a benefit.

And all of your family and friends are here, all of them. Whereas obviously when you go abroad, it's very limited, mom, dad maybe, if you're lucky. So, you know, it just feels like there's, for some stupid, and it shouldn't feel like that, 'cause you should do your best every single time. But the thought for me was I had to try harder.

[Speaker] But I get that. I mean, you look through all history of all sport and home teams just disproportionately outperform when they, you know, have the backing of the crowd and all of those things. It is just the nature of, I suppose, of human beings. But I suppose the question that England will be asking, and Charlotte Edwards will be asking of those players, is can you seize that energy and use it in a positive way? And how did you do that? You lost the opening game in 2017, and then you went on the run.

I don't see why any of these girls firstly can't do that, because they've all played in front of bigger crowds when they've been playing in the Hundred. They've been playing out in India, they've been playing the WPL. They've all played in front of massive crowds. I think from my point of view, back in 2017, that first game was— we we all came off and we were a bit shell-shocked in the manner that we lost. And it was obviously sat in the dressing room and we all had 10 minutes of rage and, you know, sadness or whatever it was, in shock. And then it was almost like, well, let's not let that happen again.

And yeah, we did our normal. We just went out and we performed as we normally do, and it didn't work. So it was like— and I want to swear now, but I'm not gonna— it was like, oh God, yeah, that was embarrassing.

Like, have we just let that happen?

What, what literally just happened? Smriti Mandhana, his front foot pulling me for 6. What on earth? And it was like, all right, these lot have turned up, they're not messing about. That was really hard, it was embarrassing. Let's not happen that— let it happen again. And from— we needed that spanking to go, our normal's not good enough, let's think outside the box, let's be a bit more ballsy, let's be a bit more brave. And actually try harder, and we did.

And it was Robbo that was— he basically was just like, look, you've, you've lost that game, but you, you've all lost that game, you know, we've lost as a team, um, learn from it, but we don't talk about it again and we move on. And that was literally it. It was like, we've lost that game. And I remember Robbo being like, we'll just play them in the final.

We've got 3 members of that England squad: Heather Knight, Dani Wyatt-Hodge, uh, and, uh, Nat Siverbrunt who played in 2017 that will be part of the England T20 World Cup squad. They've got a big role in guiding the side as individuals.

Yeah, that's— they've got a huge role. There's nothing quite like experience, is there? There's, there's also nothing quite like a fresh player who's fearless and doesn't quite know what they're stepping into.

Yeah, that was your role.

That was, that was, that's almost a bit of a blessing.

Tillie Cotting-Coleman, you, you have Catherine's going out and playing, and she's been playing for the last 10 years, and she feels every single emotion when she's out there. She's felt these emotions before. She's been hit for 6, and she hates it. She hates losing. I'm going out, and I'm going, I've never done this before. It's fantastic.

Look at all these people.

What are your plans to Alyssa Healy? I don't know, I'm just trying to hit the top of off. And it's always the easiest way. You need somebody, and you need players without the scars to bring that not ignorance, but that—

it's the middle ground that worries me. Yeah, people have had a little bit of a sting, but they've lost their, you know, they're not giving a shit.

Yes, yes.

So it's more like the, the 25-year-olds who've had a bit of a, a bit of a go and actually have had some bad, bad feedback from the outside noise.

Yeah.

To then, oh, how will you go then the next time you come up against Healey when the last time she hit you for 30 and won over? Will you remember? Will that actually stop you? Is— they're the people I worry about, not, not the experience. And the people that we actually put all the weight on the shoulders, I don't worry about them. They're used to that and they like that. And I don't worry about the, the opposite end of that.

Interesting.

So yeah, whereas, you know, like a Sophie, this would have been a much better experience for her before. Now I'm worried for her.

All those scars have been knocked out of semifinals.

Lots of people have faced her many, many times.

What about the legacy and success of other English teams that have had brilliant times of it and inspired the nation, as we often say? Uh, Red Roses, Lionesses, home World Cups wins. I mean, it, you know, it all adds to the overall picture.

It's our turn now, isn't it? You know, you talk about the Lionesses and the Roses, how they've done it. I think it's a huge opportunity for England to turn around and go, now it's our turn. It's the cricket's turn. You know, we saw how, I guess, everybody got behind the Roses, and it was almost like, I'd never watched England rugby before, I'd never watched a rugby game, but all of a sudden I'm chanting and cheering, I'm getting behind the girls, I've actually got an England rugby shirt, and I've never worn one before that World Cup, and now it's like, right, okay, cricket's turn now.

[Speaker] And the players will know that. I mean, they are saying, oh, you know, it's a great opportunity regardless of what's happened before, but when you see the impact things like the successes of those two sides has, Mm, was the rugby and the football—

was the competition as level as it is in this? I feel like the competition—

the rugby, they were very much expected to win.

Yeah, whereas I feel like cricket, especially T20 cricket, sometimes it's just like anyone's game.

But I think the point is, is your casual fan who has seen success for England sides, they will think, well, England, when they host World Cups, they win them. So I fully expect them to win this. What's going on if they don't?

And yeah, well then, if you're a casual fan, read up on some Sport a bit more because, you know, you know, you can't fully expect somebody to win a World Cup.

However, that's where the opportunity comes because it is those fans that maybe don't know as much.

And it's— you want to be entertaining, and I'm going to really throw it back to John Lewis. You want to be inspiring and entertaining because that's where you get more fans. And there's a balance to be had of working hard and winning games of cricket and inspiring and entertaining. You've got to be able to do both.

I always think the most entertaining thing is to win. I mean, regardless, that's what fans want, regardless of of anything else. Um, that England squad, by the way, there is plenty of experience across it. Um, Nat Silverbrunt, we mentioned Lauren Bell, uh, Charlie Dean, Sophie Ecclestone, Amy Jones, Heather Knight, Dani Wyatt-Hodge. There's plenty of experience there, so they have got some good guidance within the squad.

You know what I was saying about my gut feeling on it? Because you've just obviously reeling off names that aren't too— like, there's no new miracles in there.

No.

Like, so what I'm saying is that I think a lot of those players are in form, whereas in the last few years I feel like maybe 2 out of 6 have been in form at that time. Whereas I think that if you just look at the last few weeks of domestic cricket, if you like, have we seen that many hundreds in quite some time? No, it's exciting, it's an exciting time. Like, the people going away for a month but scoring hundreds of runs in a particular tournament. Like, we've not sort of had this nice little turnaround coming into where they're all sort of peaking at the right time. That's what's exciting me, whereas, you know, before it just beat one or two.

And just briefly, what have they got to do? What's the minimum really for England?

Oh, if they don't make a semi-final in the group they're in, that's a disaster.

Uh, I mean, I can't disagree, it would be a shock. If they did not make the semi-final.

I mean, you look at their group and, you know, you don't have to play India, Australia, or South Africa. Yeah, that's— you're already going in. But you— they can't be overconfident, and you can't—

you can't not look at someone like the Windies. Like, they can literally score 100 off 50 balls, so watch out.

Yeah, the England squad, I should say, is a strong one. It is one with plenty of experience and more than 960 caps worth of T20 international cricket. So there is a lot A lot of, uh, of bodies of work there, uh, and, uh, and a head coach as well that captained a T20 World Cup winning side in 2009 to boot. All gets underway on June 12th with the final at Lord's on July 5th, and you'll hear it all on Test Match Special, every ball of every single game. Thank you, Katherine Siver-Brunt and Alex Hartley, World Cup winners with England in 2017. That promises to be a brilliant tournament when it gets underway, and we'll bring it all to you.

Five Live Sports, BBC Women's Football Weekly, the latest news, insights, and analysis from across the women's game.

Dame Serena Wiegman, welcome to the— are we including Dame in your title now?

You know how much an honor that is. And it's remarkable team under this remarkable woman. We want to play in a way that they can show their skills, so that's what we try to to do, win the World Cup. It's a dream.

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