Joe Root: 'Ashes doesn't need pink-ball Test'

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Hello, I'm Eleanor Oldroyd and welcome to the Test Match Special podcast in Brisbane, four days out from the second test of the Men's Ashes. We're in the shadow of the Gabba and I use the word shadow advisedly because we've taken shelter under the awning of a cafe just around the corner from the famous old ground, the floodlight standing out against the blue sky. It is absolutely cooking in Brisbane today, I think about 35, 36 degrees. And we've just been standing watching Joe Root doing his press call with the assembled media and there were hats, there was sunscreen. I've got my own personal fan here, handheld fan, because it is so hot here. And Henry Moran, Andy Zaltzman and I are sitting with a cooling drink and Henry, we're just very glad that we only have to broadcast in this temperature and not play cricket in it.

Well, Ellie, as if there was ever a reminder needed of the challenges of playing in hot weather. Well, Joe Root, as he stood there looking at the various journalists, written and broadcast, standing there sweltering in the heat. Just a reminder that sometimes as we offer our thoughts and criticisms from the cool of the air conditioning, we've got absolutely no idea how hot and challenging it is out there in the middle. And I bet he longs to say, you lot couldn't last five minutes playing cricket in this heat, but it's an intense environment already.

Nothing says welcome to Brisbane more than a bunch of stuff sweaty English journalists gathered round by the wheelie bins, z waiting to talk To Joe Rood.

Yes, the, the, the glamour of the press corps. Yeah, it's, it's, it's toasty. And that's, yeah, that's, that's something I think would be quite hard to analyze having not. Not sort of experienced it as a. As a player. I mean, it doesn't really come up in my, my stats. There's no filter for performance when it's over 35 degree and humid. So it's, it's one of those variables that cricket throws up that makes it such an intriguing sport.

So we've heard from Joe Root today. So it is the start of training in the nets here at the Gabba Henry. So the England team getting out there, going through their paces in nets that we're told replicate the conditions out in the middle at the Gabba as well as anywhere, can.

Yeah. And again, this continues that conversation and debate and perhaps moves it on decisively about the Canberra decision and not sending the batting unit to play in that Lions match against the PM's 11. Because you've got soil and again, the temperature and again, the environs of cricket in this part of the world that are going to more accurately replicate what England are going to be facing. It won't be the same as a match. Of course it won't. Time in the middle, the hostility of being out there with a crowd in front of you, all of those things. But if you've got the likes of Harry Brook, Zach Crawley, Joe Root himself in the net, getting dedicated time over the course of the next three or four days, it's going to be invaluable. And the Gabon nets, we're reliably informed, are a pretty good representation of what they'll face out there in the middle too. So, yeah, it's going to be a really valuable few days, this for England. And also the other factor that is quite beneficial to them is they've had a little bit of luck with the weather the last couple of days, because yesterday at Alan Border Field stayed dry enough for them to have a good net session before the rain came in the afternoon. Today at the Gabba again, sun shining and they're going to get the chance to go through the preparation they wanted to do.

Well, let's hear from Joe Root. Not the start he wanted to. This Test series where he is seeking that elusive Ashes century down under scores of naught and eight in Perth. He's been speaking to our chief cricket writer, Stefan Chemolt.

Joe could just start with a quick bit of housekeeping. How's Mark Wood?

Yeah, he seems pretty good. Well within himself anyway. You know Woody pretty well and you know he'll do everything he can to be as well as fit as soon as possible. So we'll see how things unfold over the next little while when, you know as every opportunity he gets to play for England, put his heart and soul into it and go as fast as he can, the next little while, he'll be all about readying himself as best as possible.

There isn't too much you haven't seen in test cricket. Have you ever known a reaction to a defeat like we've experienced in the past week?

Probably not, but I've not seen many games like that either. So it is what it is in many ways. We'll do everything we can this week to ready ourselves to get used to these conditions. It's obviously very hot, very hot. Different to what we're experiencing in Perth. There's a pink ball element to it, so having those night trainings is going to be crucial as well. Making sure you maximise that time and ready yourself as best you can in that respect. And getting used to the surfaces here as well. Again, different challenge, different thing to a different opportunity, I guess, to go out there and find ways of scoring runs and taking wickets. So it's just being really clear on how we're going to approach that individually and building those big partnerships. So set up games and being as we were in the first innings with the ball, if we can carry that sort of form, we're going to ask a lot of good questions of their batters.

Ben told us yesterday that you guys have reflected on what happened. How did you reflect on your own returns?

Well, I was pretty disappointed in terms of the numbers. First thing is, I thought it was a good ball. It's one of those things that you can get early on. You've just got to try and find a way to get through that little phase when it's tricky at the start. And then second innings, I thought my tempo was really good, just made one mistake. You play a miss at that, or it goes between the keeper and the stumps at four, you never think of it again. So I think it's having a bit of realism, understanding. Yes, there are things that I might have done differently if I get an opportunity again. But also it's not the end of the world. I know I'm a good player. I know I'm going to be able to score runs again. And just making sure I'm really clear on how I want to construct in innings against the pink ball in these conditions, against this attack, that's what this week's about. That's what the next four days is for. Just ready yourself as best as possible with the rest of the lads and, you know, having those good conversations around things about how we can work together and build those big partnerships that are going to set up games for us.

Would you have liked a bat in Canberra?

No, I think this is the best way to prepare, personally. Like I say, as you can tell, it's very different in terms of the humidity, the heat, the surface is going to be very different. And the fact that we're all together and we can ready ourselves as a group, I think, is also very important too. Of course, time in the middle is one thing, but making sure, as an experienced player and someone that's played a lot of cricket, I feel like I know what I need to do to get the best out of myself and how I want to ready myself for this next game. And that felt like the best thing to do was to be here and utilise this long lead in at this ground on these surfaces. So hopefully that works out really well for us.

You've played in all of England's pink ball Test matches. You've been captain for a lot of them. What are the different challenges of playing against the pink ball?

I think how quickly the game can change at different phases of the day, it can feel quite placid and you can feel quite out of the game with the ball, and then very quickly things can turn around. Similarly with the bat recognising those moments and utilising them best you can, when to maybe put your foot down and maximise the good batting conditions and similarly being able to manage it when it changes and how quickly it changes. I think previous tests that I've played with the pink ball, it hasn't got darker till later. I think here it looks like you're going to have half of the game under floodlights and sort of in that twilight phase in the middle session, which normally comes around the back end of that second session and the start of the last session. So there'll be different elements to contend with. But that's all part of the fun, right? That's what it's about. Can we be skillful enough and brave enough to be better than Australia in those big moments?

What about pink ball cricket as a concept? Because I think I can say that there's one country seems to play a lot of it and that doesn't seem particularly fair. Does the Ashes need pink ball cricket?

I personally don't think so, but.

It.

Does add to things. It's obviously very successful and very popular here, and obviously Australia have got a very good record here as well. So you can see why we're playing one of those games and ultimately, you know, two years out, that it's going to be there. So it's part and parcel of making sure you're ready for it. And, you know, a series like this, does it need it? I don't think so, but it doesn't mean that it's, you know, it shouldn't be here either.

And just this week, coming off the defeat in Perth, you know how quickly the momentum can get away from a team in an Ashes series. I mean, it just adds a little bit of mustard, doesn't it, to what's coming up in the next few days?

Yeah, but I also think that this is a very different team to the previous Ashes teams I've played in out here. And one thing that we've done previously is respond very well to bad weeks of cricket. And when we've made mistakes, we've come back out and we've put a really good performance in. So that's something that I expect us to do this time round and that's the opportunity that's ahead of us. So I think looking at it in that respect, obviously, understanding the challenges that Australia pose and all the stuff that they. All the good stuff they played last week, can we respond well to that? Can we have good answers for that and put a really good step forward in the start of this game, you.

Only meet to remind you of England's record at this ground. It's a chance to make a bit of history here.

It is a chance to make a bit of history and it'll make it all that bit sweeter if we get over the line here. I've played in other venues where we've had terrible records and come out and won, and it's a great feeling. So that's the carrot that's dangled in front of us.

Cheers, Joe.

Thank you.

Cheers. Thank you.

Well, so that was Joe Root talking to Stefan Shemelt, and by the sound of it, he is not a fan of the Ashes having a pink ball Test. I mean, it's where we are. We're here at the Gabba. We've been at Adelaide before doing this, Henry. That's the way Australia like to do it, but it's not the way that England have liked to do it over the years.

It felt like he wanted to say that and make that Point. And he was quite eager to get on the front foot about the necessity of a pink ball test match in an Ashes series. Look, there are really good reasons for Australia wanting to One, they've got a brilliant record in pink ball cricket. And yeah, in the same way as they used to start a series at the Gabba because it was such a fortress for them, but also because they want matches in primetime in terms of a television audience. You get that on the east coast when you play in Perth because of the time difference. You get that. Of course, with a day night test match and the rest of the series, we're into Christmas holidays. So once we get to Adelaide, Sydney and Melbourne, that audience is available to watch because people are taking time off work. And so there are arguments as to why they would want to have pink ball cricket. But it's a fair point that not many countries do play it regularly. We saw a little bit of an explosion of it in the sort of mid to late 2010s, but actually it's really Australia where these matches have been played more regularly and they have got this brilliant record playing in them.

And what is that record?

Well, that record for Australia, 14 pink ball tests played, 13 wins, one defeat. That defeat was here in Brisbane against the West Indies. A fantastic game of cricket. West Indies won by 8 runs with Shamar Joseph taking 7 for 68. And I think being tracked with the longest celebration run in Test cricket history when he took the final wicket, bowled up Josh Hazelwood and seemed to do about four laps of the ground.

Absolute scenes.

Wasn't it a fantastic win for West Indies? And actually Australia's record at Brisbane the last few matches does give England a bit of hope. They hadn't lost a test in over 30 years at the start of the decade. But the last five tests, they've only won two. They beat and beaten England and South Africa. They've lost to India and that game with West Indies and they had a draw with India at the Gabba as well. So it's not quite the fortress that it once was. But that said, well, England's record in day night tests, one two, lost five. Although they did win one in, in New Zealand relatively recently. Although none of the only Stokes of the current bowling attack was, was part of that game. But yeah, it's a definite strength for.

For Australia and Mitchell Stark in particular. I mean, he already decimated England at Perth, didn't he? And, and now here he is and you know the, the man with an astonishing record with the pink ball.

Yes, he averages 17 in his, he's played all 14 of Australia's pink ball tests. 81 wickets at, at 17. So that's a, a very healthy set of stats over 5 wickets per match at a tremendous average. I mean most bowlers have done better in pink ball tests. But Stark by a really striking margin. Pat Cummins also averages 17 in pink ball tests although he won't be playing here. Nathan Lyons averaging 25 in pink ball, 43 wickets in 13 games. That's quite significantly below his career average. They have broadly been much lower scoring games than day tests. I've compared it over the last 10 years. The first pink ball test was in the 2015, 2016 season. So basically 10 years ago. And the overall runs, runs per wicket is about 5 fewer in day night cricket around about 25. This is bowling averages versus 30 in in day cricket. So it's quite a pronounced drop off and particularly for pace bowlers who average a little under well 23.7 in day night cricket compared with 29 in day cricket. Spinners 30 in day night cricket compared with 32 in, in, in day cricket. So it's, it's been a bowlers game generally and Stark in particular has, has taken advantage of that.

I think the psychology behind it is what makes it so interesting in some respects because Mitchell Stark statistically bowls quicker with a pink ball than he does with a red ball. And it's the same athlete running in and hurling the projectile down towards the other end. But it goes quicker when it's in, in his hand when he's playing in pink ball cricket. Is that because perhaps it's a little bit cooler in the evening and he can get in there a bit quicker? Is it because he has more confidence because he knows he takes wickets? All of these really interesting elements. I think the other factor is the psychology of captains and how sometimes selections, perhaps you get a little bit hoodwinked by thinking the ball's going to do more than maybe it will. And certainly in previous couple of Ash's test matches played at Adelaide Oval, England have been quite vocal in the fact their bowlers weren't pitching it up enough. And all this conversation about we're saving Jimmy Addison and Stuart Broad who missed out at the Gabba last time to save them for Adelaide Oval. And there's so much talk and conversation about what the ball's going to do, how it's going to behave and how teams can best utilize it. Ben Stokes declared at Mount Mangalui to ensure that England got the opportunity to bowl when it was dusk There's. I know Joe Root doesn't like it, but for fans of the science, I suppose, both psychologically and meteorologically, it's interesting.

Well, I. I wonder, Zoltz, if you look back to the very start of the Ashes history and the fact that in two years time, in 2027, there's going to be the 150th anniversary Test match in Melbourne under lights with a pink ball. I mean, should that be happening? I mean, you're a purist when it comes to these historical moments.

I think, yeah, ideally it would be a day game. I think. I'm not totally opposed to pink ball cricket. It provides a different challenge. I think there's maybe too much of an element of fortune in it in terms of, you know, when teams are bowling and batting. So I don't quite see the need from a cricketing point of view. I don't think there's any need to have the 150th Test as a day night game or indeed this game as a day night game. But it does provide a different challenge. We saw two quite different games on the last tour. The Adelaide game went deep into day five. Josh Butler had a marathon rear guard, got something like 26 off 200 balls. England only just lost that game in the final session. But the Hobart game was a rapid three day game with multiple collapses all over the place. Mark Woodbowl, tremendously in that game for England. They got nine wickets, but England ended up being thrashed, as they tended to be in that series. So, yeah, I'm not a massive fan of it, but it does, I guess, provide a bit of texture across a five test series.

Well, it's always very interesting to hear from players who played in these pink ball tests and find out what the ball does specifically to make it more challenging, whether you're batting, bowling, fielding or even keeping wicket. And the former Australian wicket keeper and captain Tim Payne is currently coaching The Prime Minister's 11 in the pink ball game that's happening up in Canberra. We'll hear his thoughts on the pink ball in just a second. But first, Simon Man's been talking to him about the regeneration of this Australian cricket team. What is the new generation of talent coming through?

If you believe I've said this a few times, what you read and see in the media, at times it can sound like the cupboard is a little bit bare, but certainly from what I've seen In the last 12 months, there's a huge amount of talent, probably as much talent as we've ever had. Coming through. It's just that I think the upbringing of these cricketers now is now around T20 and white ball cricket. So skill level is through the roof. But I suppose the focus for us is teaching these younger guys how and when to use all the skills they've got now. But certainly in terms of talent, Australia's really well placed. We've just got to sort of coach that talent into performance.

Are we talking bowlers or batters? Is it strengthening the bowlers?

Yeah, I mean, in this role with Australia we've had, you know, I've seen really good, young fast bowlers come through. We've got really, really skilled and highly talented batters and some good quality spin behind Nathan Lyon as well. So, you know, you don't get exposed and see a lot of these players because our Test team and one day team has been quite dominant and T20, we've won all those World Cups in the last few years in a Test World Championship. So the senior teams have looked the same for a long period of time and a lot of guys underneath probably haven't got the exposure that you would like, but that's a sign of a great team being ahead of them.

You haven't got a new Shane Warne.

Coming through, have you?

No, well, probably never will we? I mean, he was out of the box and one of a kind, but certainly even, you know, just being in India in the one day series with Tanvir Sangar, he's an exciting talent, highly skilled, lands the ball really well and someone that I think will do a fantastic job once opportunities arise post Adam Zamper and Nathan Lyon.

Why do you think England teams find it so hard to win in Australia? It's one series win in place on 30 years.

Oh, it's no different for us going anywhere else, is it? I mean, we forget that at times. We haven't killed it in England for 20 years either. And India's been a challenging place for everyone to go and play. I think it's what you brought up on, right? You play in certain conditions your whole life and then I think fans and media just expect you to be able to walk over to another country playing different conditions, different bounce, different spin different balls and just be able to, I guess, Forget, you know, 25 years of muscle memory of a certain length coming through to a certain height. And you know, I know everyone judged the English boys really harshly in Perth. That is a foreign place for Australians to play. Most of us, unless we grow up in Western Australia. So to be fending at balls and nicking off and looking silly in Perth is not just an English thing. We've done that ourselves. And you know, I think the positive thing for them now is they've seen it at its bounciest and the rest of this year should get a little bit easier for them.

Well, Brisbane, I mean that's normally a struggle for England and you've got to.

Throw in won't be as quick as what you see in Perth and probably not quite as bouncy, but it's sort of. You're sort of going from Perth to Brisbane. And then as I said, I think Perth is now the quickest and bounciest wicket and it's the hardest place to start. No doubt England gabble will present more challenges in terms of the swing with the humidity in the pink ball. Definitely. But again, I think the English have used Duke's ball so the swing shouldn't be as big an issue as the bounce was in Perth.

You're pretty well placed on pink ball because you've played five pink ball test matches. You actually played a pink ball test at Brisbane. Just explain what it's like.

Yeah, again it's just slightly different. The ball behaves slightly differently. It's a little bit. I explain to people all the time it's easier to see. The ball looks a bit bigger I believe. But it's hard to pick up the detail in terms of the seam and the riding on the ball. So it's not always easy to see which way it's going. The seam's not as clear to be able to pick up little things like that. So if you've seen guys by wobble seam with a red ball is a little bit easier than it is with a pink. Seeing which way it might be spinning from a spinner that can spin it both ways is difficult to pick up with the pink ball. So again it's just different little challenges that you don't get with the other game, which makes it difficult. But I think yeah, the Aussies have been playing really well with the pink ball. We play it occasionally in shield cricket and the test boys have been really successful over the last sort of five years.

What about the time of the day?

I mean, does it get tricky?

I mean you're well basically batted and you've kept wicket in to ping ball games.

If the ball's new under lights, yeah, it's a real handful. If it's old under lights, I didn't find it too bad. But yeah, and even catching I found it's just a little bit harder to judge the distance. I found wicket keeping in a pink ball game, for me, I would have sore hands at the end of a day's play, which I didn't have in a red ball. I think it was just the ball would sort of just get on you a little bit quicker. Judging the distance was a little bit harder again because the ball looked a little bit bigger. It just got on you a little bit quicker at times. But yeah, for me playing in it, I loved it. I thought it was just another different challenge. I know at times in cricket we may have too many different formats and too much going, but certainly when it was in Adelaide, it was a great week, great ground to play it. I don't know, it's at the Gabba now, but it was always a test match that I really look forward to.

How long did it take you to.

Get used to playing with a pink ball? I mean, could you do it in practice?

I'm used to it after practicing. Or did you have to play?

Yeah, I think everyone's different. And again, I find a little bit the same with the stuff you mentioned with the night time and the ball moving around a bit. I found, you know, when you're in change rooms that talk about it a lot, it tends to happen and you're worried about it. Whereas if you just go out with a really clear mind and play what's in front of you. Most top line test players will adapt to whatever's in front of them. But yeah, I mean, I like to have a bit of a look at it myself. I wasn't, you know, Joe Reed or Steve Smith, that's for sure. So for me, the more I could see it, the better I felt and the more relaxed I felt when I went out to the middle. Other guys are happy to go straight out and you're sort of seeing that, I guess with the preparations this year, this Ashes series, England aren't using this game. Some people, it makes a lot of sense too to them. Clearly they think they can go without it, which is. Which is fine.

What do you think about that? What would you have preferred to have.

Done as a player? For me, I would like to have a look at it. I would have asked to, but I wasn't a three format player. I wasn't playing IPLS, I wasn't a wanted player around the globe playing 12 months of the year. So when the summer was on for me, that was my time to shine and to train as hard as I could. But I played with Steve Smith and Pat Cummins and Mitchell Stoke. These guys are playing cricket Travis Head 12 months of the year. So any time you can get them off their feet and freshen up in a big series like an Ashes, it makes sense as well. So I get it from both sides.

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One other talking point that's emerged in the last couple of days, Henry, is the fact that the pitch at Perth is still under discussion. We heard, didn't we, that it had been given the highest possible rating by the match referee in that game down at the Perth stadium. But Usman Khawaja was not a fan. I mean, he didn't have the best Test match, let's face it. But Uzi had some rather disobliging things to say about the pitch at Perth.

Well, he did, and words that aren't necessarily safe even for a podcast, Ellie. And his descriptions of it, not terribly complimentary. And a piece of something is what he described it as. Cricket Australia apparently meeting this week and asking him to explain himself about the criticism. But you know, the ICC have judged it to be very good. I did wonder whether Cricket Australia publicizing that rating because it actually was quite hard to find on the ICC website. Sometimes when a pitch is controversial, there's a bit more of a song and a dance about it. But it was almost as though Cricket Australia was saying, yeah, England, you lost in two days. And don't you go blaming our pitch either. But Usman Kawaja, you know, speaking about the 19 wickets that were lost on the first day, there's a statistical argument to say the pitch was difficult to bat on, but then rather unhelpfully for his argument, Travis Head had a slightly better time of it when he went out there and scored that quick 500. So it'll be interesting to see, to see how that plays out this week. And of course Kawaja is one of the big selection questions for Australia, whether he keeps his place in the side. I'm not sure he's necessarily endeared himself with the powers that be at cricket Australia though, but he is a big.

Hero here, of course. I mean, you know, he's a, well, I mean an adopted Queenslander, isn't he? I think Osman Kawaja and the pictures all around the ground, you know, it does make you wonder, Andy, whether he, this could be his, his big farewell. I don't know. Or maybe he'll go out and score 150 under the lights and, and we won't talk about it till the end of the Ashes.

Yes, that's possible. I mean his recent form really since sort of halfway through the 2023 Ashes has not been very good. He had a double hundred in Sri Lanka, but not a huge amount other than that. Having had a tremendous few years after coming back in the team spectacularly at the SCG during the last Ashes here and getting hundreds in both innings, having been out of the side for a while, he's Australia's oldest opener since 1953. But we've seen as Jimmy Anderson the shining example, how age is not what it was in cricket and in many other sports as well. But I think it's more the long term form that Kawaja has had that is the concern for Australia in terms of the pitch in Perth. We looked at the ball tracking data during the game and there was actually below average amount of swing through the air and sort of a fairly average amount of sideways deviation off the pitch. It's always hard to know exactly how to interpret those because the overall figures don't necessarily tell you about the sort of individual balls. But clearly it was a difficult pitch to bat on. A number of players have said, you know, very experienced players who've played a lot of test matches said that they found it challenging. We saw Steve Smith having one of the most error strewn innings of his long and illustrious career. So elite players were struggling on it. But then at the same time, through most of cricket history on a pitch like that, you wouldn't have seen players trying to counteract it by driving balls on the up through the offside or trying to hit balls over deep Set fielders. So it was played on a difficult pitch in a very modern way, which led to sort of three rapid innings. And then we saw, I guess, the good side of modern batting in the way Travis Head played in innings that would have been largely inconceivable for most of cricket history.

Well, absolutely no problems on that pitch for Travis Head, as you say, Andy, that record breaking century from him. And he's also been talking to the press at the Gabba here this afternoon.

It's been nice to be away from.

It for a week and I think the madness starts again.

Getting to Brisbane now and we're fully back into it and it feels a little bit like going to Perth.

It's just when I start now. So they want to get to Thursday.

Want to get going.

So again, start the prep, start the.

Process again and crack back in and.

Just try and be playing. Keep away from all the other stuff.

Travis, Australia sort of embraced pink ball cricket more than any other country. We spoke to Joe Root earlier on and he said he wasn't sure the Ashes needs a pink ball test. What do you think?

Well, LA's pretty good if you've been down there. I think he is going to be. I think we sold out four days.

Here, so we'd be sold that anyway, couldn't it? Whether it was playing with a red ball on it?

Yeah, it would be, but obviously we've embraced it.

We've been able to put out a good product.

We've been be able to play really, really well with it.

And pink ball, white ball, red bull. I won't use the next word, who really cares? But yeah, it doesn't need it, does it not? It's. It's a great spectacle.

We're going to have huge crowds again. Yeah.

Look forward to the week.

And look, if you win, you think it's great and if you lose, maybe not. So I don't know.

Both teams might have differing opinions by.

The end of it, if you get.

It, but I think it's a great for the game. I think it's new, it brings. We talked about T20 and you see.

T10 and you see all these different formats. It still works the same way. It's still five days, it's just with.

A slightly different colour ball and it brings a different atmosphere.

So Travis Head, guaranteed selection for Australia. I suppose it's simply a question of where they bat him, whether he opens again or whether he drops back down to the middle order. We still don't know about Pat Cummings. Henry though, even though he's not in the squad. There are quite a lot of hints that he could potentially return for this game, although arguably they don't. They don't need him. You know, Andy's just mentioned Mitchell Starks. Incredible figures in pink ball tests England, though there's, there's questions, aren't there, about who comes in and replaces Mark Wood after the news yesterday that he's not going to be fit enough to play this game?

Yeah, I mean, Joe Root, as we heard in that interview, was quite guarded in timeframes and when asked directly by a member of the Australian media, is there no chance he can play? He said, well, he'll do everything he can. Ultimate pro, one thing and another. I mean, he'll be a huge miss for England if, as we expect, he doesn't play. Wasn't training today, wasn't yesterday at Alan Border Fields, but he did arrive at training today. A huge amount of strapping on that left knee as well. And look, he will do absolutely everything he can to be available. He had a brilliant time of it in the, in the Hobart day night game at the end of the last Ashes tour in Australia and England would love to have him available equally. They've got this big collection of fast bowling options and they've got pots and tongue playing in the, in the match at Canberra. So they do have bowlers getting some miles in the leg. So, yeah, that would be the obvious solution for England, just a, like, for, like, replacement if they want to go down the route of five seamers. But there is the prospect Sher Bashir could get an opportunity. Nathan Lyons pink ball record is a good one and there is the potential England will look at Bashir and think, well, we've been hedging an awful lot on you being a big part of our Ashes plans for the last three years. Why wouldn't we give them the opportunity if we think the conditions and the surface looks right? So it'll be interesting to see how England approach things. For Australia. I think the most likely option would be that you see Travis Head pushing up the order. I think he's, he's somebody who clearly enjoys opening the batting. Apparently he volunteered it when that second innings came around and Kawaja wasn't fit and available. That could then see Bo Webster coming into the middle order potentially. So Australia have got lots of options as well should Kawaja not play. And, and I think that the Pack Cummins thing, well, they're enjoying it, aren't they? They're having a good time just dangling that out there. And saying, well you know, you, we've said he's not available but I'm not gonna completely rule it out.

Well, in terms of England spinners, in looking at the scorecard from the day night game in Adelaide last time, England spinners did quite well. Unfortunately those spinners were Joe Root, David Milan and Ollie Robinson who bowled a few overs of off spin. So Lyon picked up, picked up wickets for Australia in, in that game, five in the match. So yeah, spin can be, can be effective. We saw in the, in the, the last Test that the pace that England used, it was the first time in a Test in Australia that England have averaged faster average ball speed than the Australian Sematak. So comparing Sematak with sematak since the 2006, 07 series, only by a little. But it did show that that strategy of going with high pace, it was highly effective in that first innings and not effective in the second. But the game had taken a curious course by then. So yeah, it's interesting choices for England. One thing they will really have to, they have to improve their second innings record. Since the start of the, well the last two years since the start of 2024, this England team has been really struggled in second innings with the bat. In the first year and a half of basball, up to the end of the 23 Ashes, they'd been the most effective second innings batting team in world cricket since then, ninth out of the 12 Test playing nations. So that's a curious change in the way that they have fared under the Stokes McCullum regime. A number of the players individually have already poor second innings records. Ollie Pope, Zach Crawley, recently only Joe Root of the top regular top seven has, has not suffered a significant drop off from first to second innings over the last, the last two years. So that's something that England will really have to rectify if they're going to challenge in this game and the series as a whole. But here's something to cling to as a beacon of hope. Since the second World War 20 Ashes series in Australia. In the second Test of those series there have been three draws. So 17 games with the results and the winning team in the second Test has won the series in 16 out of those 17 occasions. So basically the first Test was completely irrelevant. By that logic, the third, fourth and fifth Tests are completely irrelevant as well. They've just got to win this one simple.

When you put it like that. The other factor with the selection of Mark Wood, Ellie, Just as something else to throw in there is England will be so Wary of the prospect if he was to break down. And I know that Ben Stokes has been really impressive in terms of his fitness as a bowler, but knee injuries can be problematic, hamstring injuries can be problematic and flare up. And we know that Ben Stokes, as fit as he is, is somebody that has broken down during, during matches previously. If England was to lose Wood and then, yeah, from their point of view, heaven forbid, Ben Stokes in the same game, nightmare scenario, you really are looking at trouble. So they will be perhaps just that little bit more cautious with Mark Wood, particularly because second match of a series, still three to come. There's going to be that sense that let's just be a little bit careful here.

Well, it's great being back here in Brisbane, in the. The Woolloongabba suburb of Brisbane, to be precise, which is the home of the Gabba, the Brisbane cricket ground. And we've come from Perth, where we had this beautiful modern stadium, the brand new or almost brand new Perth Stadium in, in the park on the banks of the river on the Burswood Peninsula, to a real old fashioned concrete bowl stuck on an intersection. Our taxi dropped us off at the Vulture street end of the ground. So it says everything, doesn't it, about the heat, the crowds, the sense of intimidation of playing at the Gabba. And it's something that England cricket players have talked about going down through the decades, including our very own Phil Tufnell. So we thought we'd get some Brisbane memories from toughers.

An interesting word, isn't it? The Gabatoire. It is a bit like that, you know, a very passionate Australian crowd in Brisbane, very vocal. They'll get stuck into you on the boundary and then they'll give you all sorts of stuff there. That is for sure. But I played a different Gabba there, the one with the, the dog track that run around it and the hills and, you know, with people on them and sledging you and what have you. But always sort of going to be fast and bouncy there. Not quite as much as Perth, but an intimidating atmosphere at Brisbane.

Go on, tell me more.

Well, no, it's just, you know, they're just. I think it's sort of. It's tropical up there, isn't it? There's a bit of tropics up there and, you know, there's, you know, the humidity and everything and a lot of sort of country folk come to the grounds, you know, and they're absolutely, you know, you're cutting in half and they, they bleed Australian and they bleed Australia. So they'll they'll have the crowd for sure on their side. And of course I went to university in, in Queensland.

What did you study?

Well, I didn't actually study left arm spin. Left arm spin. I went there for a summer when I was there somewhere for when I was about 16, 17 and tough cricket, proper tough cricket, you know, the guys don't mess about there and you know, they play it hard on good pitches. When you get in, you're only having a knock. You don't have a knock for another two or three weeks or something. So they get stuck in. And when you bowl, they expected, you know, the, the pommy. The pommy that they've got all the way over, get some wickets. But it was a great learning curve for me playing in Australia. Just about how tough it can be and how competitive it can be.

We'll get stuck into the game. You played in 94 where, where England. They lost, but we'll move on for that. Yeah, but, but what about Brisbane as a place toughers?

Well, very nice because it's, you know.

It is a bit tropical. The climate's a bit different. You're in the far north.

Absolutely. And you've got the Gold coast just up the road and the Sunshine coast just down the other end, I think is right. And so I had a wonderful time. As I say, 16 or 17 year old. I was really sort of taken under some of their wings, you know, and they, they showed me around. It was a fabulous spot, really down on the quayside and everything. So there's lots going on, you know, good vibes in Brisbane. You know, everyone's having a good time, but yeah, the cricket will be tough.

So. 1994 England take on Australia in the first Test match tends to be the first test intimidating place to go. It's not the first test in this series, of course, that that played in Perth. England were asked to field and Australia 426 England a response 167. Toughal actually went wickedless first innings but came roaring back with a fourfa.

Absolutely no. Absolutely. Well, that was when the first ball field of freighters Michael Slater slapped it over points head for one, bounce four. And you know, a lot of these deliver a lot of these first balls or first overs and what have you are quite telling, aren't you? And the head, the head did drop a little bit from ball one. You know, everyone's gone all crikey, what's going to happen here. But yeah, no bowled right at the second innings. I can remember Ian Healey coming out when he was batting, I think with Tim May or someone, and I'd got before for a bowl, an absolute ball of the century said to David Boone, pitched outside leg at the top of off. And I was getting into my work and then Ian Healey came, came out, he said, right, tough. No, I'm not letting you get your five for. You know, I sort of went, oh, okay, that's a bit up. You know, wasn't expecting you to let me get the fiverr. But he made it his point not to give me that five for first test match of the series. Not to give me that. Any of that sort of momentum or confidence. Confidence. And, yeah, I'll always remember him, you know, having a bit of a go at me about it, but there you go, it was good. Bowled. All right. Bowled.

All right.

Flat pitch, flat pitch.

Can I point out who. Who you got out, actually? Captain Mark Taylor.

Yeah.

David Boone with the ball of the century.

Mark.

War, Steve.

War.

You're not just mopping up a tail, then?

No, I know Ian Healy said. He said, we're not going to let you get your five for the tail. And they, they didn't. You know what I mean? Which I was a bit miffed at because that would have just given me that little bit of impetus. But, no, I mean, hard work there. I can also remember there used to be a. A hill down there where I used to field down at third man and fine leg. And about four o', clock, the sky went black with cans. There was a can fight, which apparently they do every day in the old ground. And everyone was just. Everyone just sort of started lobbing cans. It was amazing sight to see. Empties. They found. They turned all their empties and then just. It was pigging off everywhere. They was all coming over into the ground as well. So, you know, it's funny what you remember, isn't it? But it was a great atmosphere there.

Flat pitch.

Oh, absolutely. Flat pitch. Yeah. Good pitch. Won't be this time, I don't think. I don't think it'll be as spicy as Perth, but always that little bit of bounce. And I think that all Australian pitches, I think from little bit of bits and pieces I've been. I've been learning from, people are going to have this little bit of covering of grass and a little bit of help for the seamers. So, yeah, Australia feel very, very comfortable in Brisbane, you know.

Well, they talk about Fortress Gabba, but that wasn't breached. Has been breached in recent time, by the way. Shane Warne took eight for in the second innings. 1871.

Yeah, he did. He bowled Alex Stewart with that wonderful flipper. Do you remember? Gone back. He's gone. Bowled it short, cut him and we've gone. Yes, Al. Come on Al. And then he's, he's teed him up beautifully and he bowled in this flipper which he didn't really bowl. He only bowled it when he was young really because I think his shoulder hurt him after a while and he bowled this flipper to Stewie. Great player of spin. And he's gone back to cut it and I think he still had his bat up in the air like that as this thing has scooted past him and knocked his middle pole out and the place went absolutely mad. Yeah, Shane Warne, what a player.

See who didn't get out though?

Me. Didn't get me out. No, no, I think, I think I got, I think that's where I scored my first run. That might be my first test run, you know, in Australia. It was yes, little back foot punch off a Shane Warne. Glenn McGrath mid off, died full length and stopped it. Otherwise that would have been 42 from 25.

A belligerent toughnel. Not out.

Was it 2 from 25. I think the game might have been gone by then. There was a chance. I think Craig McDermott got a load as well.

Craig McDermott got twofer in the second innings, first innings it was 6 for 53 for McDermott. Toughner was out, caught Taylor Bold worn for an 11 ball duck in the first innings.

But you know, well that was Phil Tufnell with his memories of playing here in Brisbane. I mean England's record here at the Gabba Zalts has not been all that clever over the last few series.

No, they lost one here in the 198687 series game in which Ian Botham got a spectacular, spectacular 100. That's setting them up for a for a two one series series victory. But since then, seven defeats, two draws. One of the draws was a great draw when Cook, Trott and Strauss scored 517 for 1 in the second innings. After England had a big first innings deficit in the 201011 tour. They then won the second test in the series 3 1. The other was a rain affected draw in 1998 99. Australia had much the better of that game and the margins of defeats since England won in 1986, seven 2x10 wickets, one by 9 wickets, one by 184 runs, one by 227 runs and two by over 380 runs. So it's tended to go quite badly here, Ellie, with that one extra minute.

Ago, you were telling England fans why there was reason for optimism.

Well, there's reason for optimism. The thing is, Henry, as I've said many times before, you can make a stat, whatever you say, if you treat it right. So we can cherry pick these stats. And if England do win in Brisbane, they've had five wins in Brisbane. They had two before the Second World War at the Gabba, only those two since the Second World War in 78, 9 and 86 7. They also won a game with the exhibition ground. They played one Ashes Test here in 28, 9 and they won the series that time as well. Out of their five wins in Brisbane, four times they've gone on to win the series. So we can focus on it being the second test being crucial and the fact that if England wins at the Gabba, it's basically in the bag. Historically done.

Easy. A few little thoughts from locals who know these parts very well. Matthew Hayden, the most obvious of them, the former Australian opener, reading what he's had to say about this ground. And Australians love it because it is hostile.

It is different.

He describes it as a very unique ground. There's an air of arrogance and confidence at the venue. And he describes it as the most hostile environment that was possible in Australia. So that's what's waiting for England and indeed their supporters that are beginning to arrive, hoping for a little better than those that had two days worth of action in Perth.

Thank you, Henry. Thank you, Zoltz. A reminder that every ball of the Men's Ashes is available to listen to on BBC Sounds and 5 Sports Extra, with the Test at the Gabba starting at 4am on Thursday 4th December, every night of the game, however long the game goes on for. Alex Hartley will be hosting the Ashes Daily debrief on the iplayer, where you'll also find match highlights. If you haven't had enough of Zalts for today, test your trivia with today's Ashes Daily quiz, available only on BBC Sounds. To find it in the Test Match special podcast feed, just search Ashes on Sounds. Thanks for listening. We'll speak to you next time.

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