Jos Buttler on white-ball captaincy, his Test career and The Hundred

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You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Hello and welcome to the Test Match Special podcast with me, Stephen Finn. It's been nearly six months since Joss Butler stepped down as England's white ball captain. He led the team to victory in the T20 World cup in 2022, making England the first side to hold both white ball world titles. But that was followed by disappointments at the 50 over World cup the following year and and this year's Champions Trophy. I spoke to him about his reflections on being white ball captain, what he thinks of his time in Test cricket and his excitement at playing in this.

Year'S Hundred the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

I want to start right at the beginning though of your career and the way that you play, like how individualistic it is. How did you learn that in an era when it wasn't that common to play as you do?

I think to be honest, right from the start I've always been drawn to players who did it a bit differently. So Adam Gilchrist was initial, you know, as a wicket keeper batsman his style was quite different to the mould at the time. So I was really drawn to that. And then someone like Kevin Peterson, I loved the way he came into English cricket and was un English basically, but always been drawn to those type of players, players whether it's cricket or other sports, so wanted to try and emulate that, try things, do things differently and I think I was quite lucky when I got onto the Somerset Academy. Jason Kerr, who's now the head coach at Somerset, would almost start sessions with a bit of a free go at stuff like you can do whatever you want, try things out half an hour of and that really suited me. I'd bat left handed or try different shots and stuff like that and that sort of just Married up with the way I saw the game and wanting to try and do things a bit differently or just find my own style. And I've been through stages where you're trying to copy others and try and go away from that, but I think basically you're just trying to be the best version of yourself. And I always, yeah, right at the start was sort of drawn to players who had a bit of an X factor or did things differently.

Did other sports influence you at times when you were younger because you're very good at everything annoyingly apart from football, but you're annoyingly good at everything other sports, hockey or something influenced the way that you play some of those shots, the scoops and the rounds.

I just liked all the other sports. Anything with the ball I was into. I liked just trying different things and I think they're all mixed up together. I know that people will say certain players that's a shot from this sport or it's from that sport but I think the hand eye coordination stuff just kind of goes across the board. But yeah, I just enjoyed other sports. I think there's different merits to probably specializing early or trying to have a broad view and try everything. But I was into everything. I liked trying different things. Yes, maybe there are things that cross over or can come into cricket from other sports but really I think if you're just playing with a ball and it's hand eye coordination or you're trying to hit a ball, I think it all kind of just mixes into one as well.

Yeah, there's a game that I actually saw you, I reckon the first time I properly watched you play an innings at lords in the 40 over final you got 80 odd off 50 odd balls, do you remember that? And did that feel like a big innings in a final? I think you were 20 years old at the time, do you remember that?

Yeah, I think that was against Surrey in the final and I'd had a really good season with Somerset in that role as sort of number seven coming in at the back end of innings and yeah, that was a huge game for me as a. Unfortunately we lost the game. But personally to perform at that stage and in front of a big crowd and Lords finals were something I used to go and watch as a kid so that was pretty cool and that was probably just sort of getting to the sort of steps in your career that okay, I can do it in this environment or under this pressure or against this bowling attack. So it was really important moment personally for me to sort of another tick in the box And a confidence builder that, okay, maybe I can do it here, maybe I can go on to the next level.

So you get to that stage where you've done it domestically, you've played in that big game at Lords. You were then in England squads regularly, but you made your T20 debut in 2011, your ODI debut soon after in 2012. Did you feel ready to step up to that level at that stage, at.

Such a young age, I felt like I had the potential. And at times now when you look back, you're like, well, they picked you, so they must have believed in you. But I didn't say I felt ready. Walking into a dressing room with guys that established international players that you've idolized and actually been a young kid when they started their careers. So it felt strange. It took me a good year, to be honest. It's probably the only credit I'll give you in this interview that, you know, you and Morgz kind of took me under your wing and sort of showed me the ropes and looked after me. But it wasn't until I had that one over against Wayne Parnell at Edgbaston, where just before the T20 World cup in Sri Lanka, that had good innings, and that sort of gave me the belief.

I think that was the moment.

Yeah, that was a big, huge moment for me because I sort of batted number six, seven. Hadn't had loads of chances, really, but I hadn't done anything. And even though you've been picked and you want to prove yourself as much to the outside world and the media and the company, it's actually the guys in the dressing room that you want to walk back in and sit down next to them, and they go, yeah, this guy can play or he deserves to be here. And I hadn't had that moment, really, for me, up until then. So that was a big moment for me to just sort of feel like, okay, I can do it at this level against, you know, the top bowlers around the world.

Who were those people in the team at the time that you felt like you had to impress because there were big characters, weren't there, when you first came in? Kevin Peterson, people like that? You are now clearly that player to some young guys coming into the team. Do you remember who it was that you first walked in and thought, oh, man, I'm showing the dressing room with this bloke?

Yeah, I'd say the names would be Swan, Peterson, Anderson, who I think were sort of like. They just seemed otherworldly. They like, as if, you know, it's like being at Madame Tussauds, really. And so you're with them, but are they actually real? But they were guys that I'd idolized and sort of big characters in. And even though Stuart Broad was sort of one of those guys, he was captain of the T20 side at the time, so he felt, you know, he was obviously part of the reason I got picked and putting his arm around me. So that was good. But, yeah, I think it's sort of those players that, you know, have been established internationals for a long time. As I mentioned before, Ewan Morgz were great for me in sort of, you know, probably seeing a young guy. Just needed a bit of help and a bit of reassurance that you deserve to be here and you've been through it, you know what it feels like, and that they're the kind of things now, 15 years on or whatever it is, I look back about how valuable that is to have a teammate just sort of be there for you and sort of just reassure you and say, you know, you're going to be fine, it will all work out. At the time, it's all, yeah, it's fine for you to say, but, no, it makes a huge difference.

Are you aware of that? As a senior player now in the team and having achieved everything that you've done, is that something that when you see a young guy come into the team, you help yourself get around it?

I try and think so, yeah. And obviously have that experience of being captain as well. You know how important that can be. And sometimes it might not always be the captain that you find it easier to feel those words from. It might be senior player is actually easier to be more open with or be sort of. You know, this sounds. Because the coach and the captain, you sort of want to come across as you're in control. Yeah, exactly. You don't want to show any kind of weakness and say, you know, I'm feeling a bit unsure. So, no, I think definitely it's. As your career progresses, it becomes a really important part of your role. And even just talking about it now, it's something I'm like, you know, I've got to make sure in the hundred and get around a few of the younger players and sort of share some experiences. You don't want to come across like, you know, everything and you sort of impose yourself, but be available and actually understanding that as the more senior player and the guy who's been around a bit, you might have to make the first interaction, you know, you think, oh, my door's always open, people will come to me. But I remember being a young kid sort of thinking I'll go and ask Kevin Peterson a question is it was probably harder than if he just said to me, how are you doing mate? What's happening? So yeah, being aware of that's really.

Key then, the natural Progression. You've played T20 cricket for England, you've played 50 over cricket for England.

Test match cricket.

You played over 50 odd Tests. Ash's winner played in some really significant series. How do you reflect on your Test match career?

Unfulfilled, I'd say. I think as you said, I mentioned, I played a lot of games. I was really fortunate in a way probably to play that many. But I had periods in my Test career where I felt like I was understanding how I wanted to play and contributing well to the team, to some good series wins. But I never probably had that for long enough and I probably never was entirely comfortable with my identity as a test cricketer maybe and how I was going to play and. And that's only down to me really. I had huge support. Joe Root was a brilliant captain for me. He really pushed me and believed in me. But I just felt like I never quite sort of had that. Had a couple of moments where I thought I understand it and I'd break through.

What were those moments?

Series against India in 2018, had a brilliant IPL and came back into the side when Ed Smith became the selector. And I felt very in control of my game, very comfortable with how I was going to play and sort of it was quite an unheard of role, a specialist batter at number seven. But it was kind of a free hit for me really, which was great and so that was good. But I just never had it for long enough, consistently enough. And I probably just battled myself too much. I was probably too hard on myself maybe. I always sort of, in one day cricket, I'm always trying to dominate the bowl and I probably didn't quite work out how to do that in Test cricket. I was probably too reactive to the ball coming down as opposed to trying to impose my game and be in control. But yeah, I loved Test cricket. I just thought it was like the hardest exam you could do, but if you did well, it was more fulfilling than any cricket you can play.

You still feel like that?

Yeah, absolutely. Even recently during the blast game, the test was on and Jimmy and I were sort of sitting sat next to each other and he said, oh, do you miss it? I said absolutely, I miss it. I wish I'd done better at it. So I could still be playing. Yeah, there's something, you know, you're exactly the same. You've experienced it and played in great Test matches and you can't replicate that. And we're very lucky in England you get so well supported. You know, the crowds are amazing. So, yeah, absolutely. Miss it. Miss it immensely.

Do you, do you look at the. Because you say like you're very self deprecating but you say unfulfilled. Do you look at this era now, The Stokes and McCullum and the way that they play Test cricket, as you're describing it, looking to be imposing on the front foot. I mean, I look at it as a bowler myself and I think, man, if I played in this era, I'd have had so much fun. I probably would have got more out of myself. Do you have any similar feelings with that?

Maybe a few times, Yeah. I think you. There'd be a great leadership group to play in and I'd love to experience that. But I had some great. It's very easy to say that and think, oh, it's not my fault I didn't get the most out of myself. Well, definitely you can only score your own runs and obviously you need people to help you and create the environment to do that. But I don't want to feel like I'd say, oh, I'd be amazing if I played in this team because I had my go, I had loads of chances and I just personally never quite cracked it. And I talked about that moment at the start of that over against Wayne Parnell, which was for me, massive. And it's like at that moment, fleetingly in Test cricket, where I was like, this is the thing. But yeah, I think having worked with Brendan McCollum a little bit, he would have been brilliant for me as a person and as a player to probably take away, alleviate some of the noise in my own head that can get there. So, yeah, I think the. And what I love about what they've done and what they've done with Test cricket is I think everyone, player and stuff, whether you're trying to get into that team or you've played before, you'd be like, I'd love to play in that side. And I think that's one of the greatest credits you can give those guys is that everyone would just be desperate to play for them.

Yeah. And talking about those tougher times and it's easy. Like you look on social media and everyone's lives, looks amazing. Like an Instagram reel that when you found those challenging Times, because you've had a very long international career now, 14 years or so and still going. And what were those tougher times? Can you identify any particular flash points? And then how did you come through it to still be a very good and better player? The other side of it, Yeah, I.

Think to play for as long as I have, I think the longevity thing is the thing that probably pleases me the most. To be able to still be playing and play at a high level. I think it's one of the greatest compliments you can give to sports people to be able to play for a while and you have to have a lot of resilience to be able to do it. Cricket's a tough sport and it can be pretty unrewarding at times and you need to find ways to deal with that. So I think having good people around you, that's been a big part of it for me. Neil Fairbrothers, I say he's my agent, but he's more of a mentor, really, and he's a friend who's really helped me in my career and looked after me over a long period of time. Like you say, when you get those low moments of rebuilding you and pushing you back up, obviously family support is crucial to that. And I think it's probably, you know, getting dropped is actually not the worst thing because you. You fear getting dropped and you think, you know, you walk down the street and you let Betty's talking about my form, or you go and order a coffee and you think, I wonder if they're thinking you deserve to be dropped and you got no runs last week and then it actually happens and you get left out and you realise that, yes, you care and it's disappointing, but it's not that big a deal, you know, it's not the be all and end all and life still goes on. It doesn't actually. Giles gave me a great piece of advice, actually. He said, just because you had a bad day at cricket doesn't mean you're a bad person. And that was a big part of it for me as well. Just cricket isn't me. It's just something I do and trying to manage that, the emotions that come with that. And sometimes time, you just need a little bit of time when you get dropped or you get left out and you just need a bit of space from it and then you see it all becomes a bit clearer again and build yourself back up. Yes, I'm still a good player. I just didn't play that well on that day or for that period of time and to know that you can come back from it. And I think once you do come back, then you feel like in a better place the next time you get back involved in that environment or. And then you've got stuff to call on, you know, okay, well, you can maybe start to feel some of the feelings you had when this happened before and know maybe how to cope with it a little bit better and to. To be able to just manage your feelings. Because you got a lot of time as a cricketer, I think you've got a lot of time to think and sometimes you can overthink stuff then psychologically, through. Through your career.

There was a period. I can't remember exactly when it was. You wrote on the handle of your bat, didn't you, to let it go effectively in rather looser terms. Yeah. Like, what drew you to that? And then how much have you changed from that? Was that a marked moment in your career?

Yeah, that's actually the Wayne Parnell moment. So Mark Borden, who you'd know well, who was the psychologist with the England team at the time, I went to him before that in and had just said, I'm struggling a bit. I just feel a bit like I haven't proved to the rest of the guys that I can play. So we sat down and sort of. He asked me a few questions about, what is it when you feel at your best? Just try and describe it. And I was describing a few things like I'd do with, you know, technically or mentally. And then I basically said, you know what? I just walk out there and when I'm really clear, and I basically say, don't worry about it. And he was like, that's it. That's your mind. That's all you should work on is trying to get to that point.

Is it still on your bat?

Yeah, still there. Yeah. So, yeah, it's been a real constant reminder for me. And it's something I. Yeah, some days look at it a lot when I'm batting. Some days I don't even think about it, but it's just a nice grounding kind of thing. And it helps me deal with lots of situations, whether it's in cricket and you've got out or you're worried about playing a shot, or you need a bit of extra conviction to do something. Yeah, it's just been something that was a really helpful tool at the right time when I needed it. And probably by coincidence, that innings happened straight after. But it's sort of when you get that relationship between, okay, this is My thoughts. And then you have a really big moment in your career. It's a really strong sort of bond between them.

So you progress through the England ranks. You played all three formats, you've become a regular in all three formats. Owen Morgan retires and you're captain of the England white ball teams. I always saw you as a natural leader and someone who led within the dressing room, both like vocally and with your actions. Did it feel a natural transition to go from vice captain to captain?

Yeah, it did. I think having been Morgues vice captain for a long time and so probably being the most senior player in the side, it felt very natural that I was take over at some point. Probably came a bit earlier than I thought, but certainly felt ready for it. And obviously it's such a privilege to get to captain your country is something I was very proud to do. Obviously had the high of winning the T20 World cup and then some very challenging times within that as well.

Have you allowed yourself to reflect? Like it's now four or five months since you stepped down. Have you been able to reflect and enjoy the good times? Because that can get lost in amongst the rubbish sometimes, can't it?

Yeah, I have. And I think actually it's something I've become more aware of is the more time and space I've now got from stepping down. Yeah. Reflecting on some good times and actually probably a bit more understanding and sort of the sort of cloud kind of left side. So you can see it for a bit clearer as to why things didn't go so well or things that I would maybe have done differently or things that I should have acted on different bits. I think it's just become a bit clearer. I think when you're in it, you're kind of so determined to try and make it right and your ego can get in the way and say, no, everything's fine, I can do it.

You like put a wall up around.

Yeah, absolutely. And I certainly did that. And I think that's probably one of the failings of that time in the end was that probably just needed to need a bit more help or a bit more sort of openness with people or something like that. Yeah, it's becoming a bit clearer. I think certainly as I'm getting more space from it and sort of understanding how I was feeling in that time. And you know what? The 2023 World cup was incredibly difficult and sort of like I didn't. Even though we played badly, we played way worse than I would think we could ever play. And for that World cup to happen the way it did was probably a huge confidence shock to my captaincy.

And everything was in the method or.

The factors, just everything.

Because to me, watching from the outside, that core of players that built between the 2015 and 19 World cup played together a lot. And clearly you get confidence with that. Between the 2019 and 2023 World cup, you didn't have that. Do you think that was a factor?

Yeah, it was a factor. It's one of many factors, I think. And that's where you sort of go actually. The transition from that time of 2015-19 to the, you know, whenever Morgz was going to move, move on. And obviously we're all sort of a similar age bracket as well. Those players were, you know, very much in our peak at 2019 and it all worked perfectly. So actually when I look back and you say, oh, it's maybe everyone maybe assumed white ball cricket was in a great place and would just continue. But I think actually that role of taking it on from Morgues and creating another dynasty or whatever it may be, or whatever word you want to call it, was going to be very difficult. And it's not something I was unaware of. I actually remember having a very clear conversation with Rob Key about that. But it's just the way sometimes timing and things don't quite work out and we had some tricky decisions to make along the way which maybe affected everything really. And it's just, I've just found it really interesting having this time to reflect and get some space from it to go, you know, these little things, how much of effect it can have, what little things? Just sort of, you know, relationships between, you know, the coach and captain or certain players or how to manage, you know, one very difficult selection was sort of around Harry Brooke and Ben Stokes and sort of that we had sort of 16 to get into 15. And, you know, even the way I now I reflect on how that sort of few weeks pre World cup would have maybe affected the whole group going into the World cup and stuff like that. So, yeah, it's just sometimes like little moments that through no fault of your own and at the time you're doing the best with the information you've got. But I think, you know, maybe there was a bit of a misalignment for people and sort of, you know, just didn't go into that tournament thinking maybe everything was as rosy as the series. Victory against New Zealand sort of made it look.

Was there one particular thing when you, when you decided to step down? Was there one particular Thing that you thought, I've just had enough of this. I don't need this in my life anymore. You don't need it in your life. Like the one thing that made you just think, you know what? I think I'd be better off for myself not to do this.

I just thought my race was run, to be honest, from having been involved, like I mentioned, in that 2023 World cup as captain. The 2024 T20 World cup, even though we got to the semi finals, was, you know, sort of. It felt like from the outside that wasn't really good enough. And we say, oh, we only beat X, Y and Z to get there. And I just knew for my captaincy we'd need to do really well in that Champions Trophy and win some games. And obviously McCollum had just come in as the coach of everything, and I was really excited to work with Baz, but we'd had a tough series in India, which can happen. They're pretty good at home. And I just knew that more so for me and then more so for, like, the outside world, we'd have to do well straight away to sort of validate me continuing as captain because I was sort of the only one left from all the time before. So I just knew that it was the right time for me to sort of get out the way and sort of take that. But. And I just think my. Yeah, like I said, my race was run. I think comes a time in leadership where you probably think you've had some moments that haven't gone like you want them to, and it does. It just takes away from the power of your leadership. You know, you just feel like you're not delivering the messages with the same conviction or you've not got the same level of respect. Because I always felt respected from the guys, but just like, well, what we've been talking about or you've been trying to drive forward just hasn't quite worked. So it just felt the right time to move on. And, yeah, I feel obviously sad to step down, but obviously privileged to have done it as a great.

And a World cup win.

Yeah, exactly. So you have to remember. Yeah, exactly. And that's a very special time. And, you know, the thinking about that tournament was. Was awesome. So, yeah, it's just probably the. For me, the big, big One was that 2023 World cup in India was. Was a real kick in the teeth and sort of a confidence knock as. As a captain.

So you step down as captain, you then go to the IPL, you have one of your best IPLs and ever, averaging 60, striking at 160. Your relationship with franchise cricket has always fascinated me because you, Kevin Peterson, Owen Morgan, guys who've consistently played it, have always said how positively that has impacted your game and your wider game. Seven IPL hundreds. Is that true that you feel as though playing in the IPL makes you a clearly better player and franchise tournaments in general?

The IPL is fairly huge, huge impact on my career. I remember you talk about like moments in your career where you sort of light bulb moment or something. My first ever IPL was sort of like there's something different about the best players. Their mentality is different. It was just clear and obvious in the ipl, all the best players in the world are all in the same place at the same time. And one of the best things I've always enjoyed doing is just watching and just noticing. And at the ipl, you get to train obviously with the guys in your team. Some of the best players in the world, and two teams are training at the same time, so you can watch the opposition practice as well. And there's just a clear difference in the mentality of all the. I'm talking like the top percent of the players. And that was a big moment. Right? I need to try and get to that. I want that. I want to be that. I want to be the best player in the world. So that was one moment. And then again, sort of at 2018, I think it was my first year with Rajasthan Royals, I had this moment. How come it's Kohli's day every day? You know, like he had an amazing tournament and just sort of maybe the 2016 tournament, I think he scored 900 and something runs. But you always see the interviews of people. Oh, today was just my day. Everything worked for me. And it's like, well, can't just be, you know, why is it Kohli's day every day? And it can't just be because he's technically better or something. And it's again, coming into that mentality thing. So at that age, being 27, I think I was. I spent a lot more time on the mental side of the game. And that being at the ipl, there was something I really worked hard on that sort of understanding how I could. Yeah, I've got all the things I want technically or talent, etc. But how can I build that within the game? And one thing, other thing the IPL does is sort of demystify people, you know, so suddenly you're playing with some players that you thought were you know, the best players in the world and they never have a negative thought and sat in a dressing room with them when they get out and they're berating themselves like, you know the same, and they're worried about the game coming up and you're sort of like, okay, these guys are normal as well. So, yeah, franchise cricket's been brilliant for me. The IPL has been amazing for me to rub shoulders with all these players and the coaches that you come across. And it also puts a lot on you as the player to turn up at a franchise team. And the coach, yeah, as an overseas player, you've got huge expectations. And the coach says, what do you want? How do you need to prepare? So you need to know the answers to that, to say, okay, this is what I need from you. This is how I get the best out of myself. This is how I'm going to give the best to the team. And so that's been a big part of my sort of understanding of me as a person and a player to then be able to travel the world and go, I can dip into different tournaments and perform well.

So we're in the fifth year of the hundred competition. You didn't manage to play a game last year because of a bit of old man's calf, which all of us have fallen foul of at some stage. Are you excited to get out there in an English franchise competition? That feels like it's quite a big thing.

Yeah, absolutely. I've loved the hundred. I think it's been brilliant. It's been, you know, like you say, having played in different competitions around the world and seen the sort of impact that the franchise things have had and the sort of crowds and the standard of cricket, I mean, it's exactly what you want on your own doorstep. So, yeah, to be able to go out there and play at home in front of the big crowds and obviously with just eight teams and the condensed talent, which we have a lot of in England. So, yeah, it's a tournament as well. When you talk to other players around the world, they're all desperate to come and play. So I think it's a really exciting time for the hundred. Love to be involved. Obviously missed it last year with an injury, which is a shame. So, yeah, looking forward to it even more so probably this year.

And you've got a young whippersnapper wildcard. James Anderson, you played with him domestically, but it's good to see him still going.

Yeah, amazing. And I know lots of people, people were like, oh, why is Jimmy carrying on he's done so much in international cricket, but playing with him, he just genuinely loves cricket and he loves competing. And he obviously is competing and doing.

It well and getting better and he.

Feels like he can still do it. So it's been amazing, actually. Just play some blast games with him and skill level is obviously still there and how much he just loves, you know, trying to contribute to the team and when I'm just. He's also been amazing in the dressing room. I've noticed, you know, I mentioned start of my international career, I thought Jimmy was quite an intimidating guy. If I miss fielded off him, if you miss field one off him or you don't pass the ball to him correctly, he might not speak to you for a week or so. But it's been amazing to see him in the dressing room with some of the young Lancashire lads and sort of. They're all getting to hang out with Jimmy Anderson, which is quite, like, surreal, I think, for them. And obviously he's. He's got a real passion to help. He wants to get into coaching, I think, at some point, and coach players, not just be like Jimmy Anderson, who is there to sort of take a mitt. He actually wants to really make an impact, and I think he's been doing that even while he's now playing as well as he's doing his own stuff. It's been pretty cool for the guys to have him in the dressing room.

So, Joss Butler, 50 over, World cup winner, T20 World cup winner, Ashes winner, IPL winner. What is it that keeps you going and keeps you motivated? Now, you're young and you're fit and you will play for a significant period of time, but what's that one burning light that keeps you going?

I think competing is one thing I love doing. I love getting out there trying to win games of cricket. And I think also batting is one of those things that you're trying to sort of master it and you never will, or maybe other people do, but it always keeps you coming back for more. What can I add to my game? How can I improve? What can I do better? Or sort of different shots that I might try? Even recently, I never used to run down the wicket much to seamers, and it was a conversation with Kumar Sangakara. He said you could add this to your game. So that's something I've been really working on. I like having something to go to practice every day that I'm intrigued to find out more about or have a passion to get better at. And I think when that stops because the games take care of themselves, because you sort of playing in front of a crowd and there's a big game and you want to win and compete. But I think the love of practice is the thing that I still have. Very much so. Just I really enjoy batting. I can sort of see it now that, like looking through your grill, tapping your bat on the floor, it's like kind of your. Sadly, it's just a happy place, you know, ready to try and whack 1.

Licking your lips because Stephen Finn's bowling at you.

Yeah. So no, I think as long as that's still there, I'll be sort of really keen to keep going as long as I can. But I also don't, you know, you don't want to just sort of. I don't want to do a disservice or anything to your team, you know, if that isn't there, then you just have to be honest with yourself, I guess, and say, you know, maybe, but it's certainly very strongly still there at the moment, so. So that's a big plus for me.

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He scored goals, lifted trophies and broken records along the way. There it is. It's a day to remember for Wayne Rooney. And now he's got a podcast.

Welcome to the Wayne Rooney Show.

Twice a week, Wayne Rooney, Kay Curd and me, Kelly Summers break down the biggest stories in the Premier League and beyond.

As much as you'd like to say it, loyalty in football now is non.

Existent, whether that's from players or managers. Plus, we'll hear the funniest, wildest and.

Most outrageous stories from Wayne's career.

The Wayne Rooney Show.

Everybody's talking about it.

Listen on BBC Sounds.

This is the story of the one. As a custodial supervisor at a high school, he knows that during cold and flu season, germs spread fast. It's why he partners with Grainger to stay fully stocked on the products and supplies he needs. From tissues to disinfectants to to floor scrubbers. All so that he can help students, staff and teachers stay healthy and focused. Call 1-800-granger click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

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