Key: 'England have not wasted summer'

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Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat. About a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, The Iliad, and The Odyssey. And that's with Kael Smith-Bynoe joining us. And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist, discredited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desiree Burch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parrott. So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to You're Dead to Me wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you.

Bye.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello and welcome to the Test Match Special Podcast. This is Henry Moran. Just 24 hours after Steven Fleming and Joe Root were appointed England's men's Test head coach and captain, Director of Cricket Rob He spoke to the BBC in an extended interview with me at Lord's early on on Friday. Make sure you subscribe to the Test Match Special podcast so you never miss an episode during this incredibly busy summer for English cricket. To come, we'll hear the thoughts of former Test batter David Millan and 2017 World Cup winner Alex Hartley. But first, let's hear from the only member of England's leadership team to keep his job. I asked Rob Key why Steven Fleming got the role of Test coach.

I think he's going to be outstanding. When we started the process, what, about a month ago, I think it was really important to me— you try and— my job really is to set the direction of travel, the way you think the England team needs to go, and then bring in the coach you feel who can deliver on that. I felt that over the last 4 years there's been some outstanding stuff. 4 years ago For me, it was about changing the mentality of this England team, and I think Brendan and Ben did that brilliantly. And there's been so much good stuff. The last 6 months have been really tough, sure, but there's been so much good stuff that has happened, and you don't want to lose that. So it's really important that you don't bring someone in where the pendulum shifts right the way to the other side and you come risk-averse, lacking optimism, all of those things. And I think Stephen Fleming will just refine refine what is a potentially world-class team. At the moment, we've lost an entire generation, bar Joe Root, of player. We've lost over 1,000 wickets in the last, what, 2, 3 years for different reasons. But there is so much potential there, and Steven Fleming will be the person, I believe, who can really realize that potential. A bowling attack that can go out there, be relentless, and batters the same. Who can go out there, score runs, adapt to conditions, win Test matches, win series, but then sustain it as well. English cricket has had periods where we've been really good for a bit and then it falls off. We beat the sides below us and we compete against the ones above us. We want to create a system where we want to make sure that English cricket actually not only has success, sustains it, and I think Fleming will bring all of that.

Was he the first choice?

There was the start of it, we probably had, what, 3, 4 different people. And I never look at things like first choice, it's different styles, different identities, different ways of doing things. And Stephen Fleming, I think, is the best person for exactly what we need.

Not Andy Flower? He was never somebody you wanted?

No, Andy Flower, I spoke to Andy Flower as well. He made it very clear that he didn't want to put himself into the process, which was fine, I appreciated his honesty. But I couldn't be happier with Stephen Fleming. I think he's absolutely the right person, and I think when people get to see him, they'll realize just how good he is.

Who else was in the frame, particularly where are the England coaches?

I interviewed a number of England coaches actually. I'm not going to go into who because I don't think that's fair for them as much as anything else. And it was, it was a really good process as well to start understanding. And part of when Stephen Fleming and I started speaking with each other, that was a really important thing for him as well, to make sure that we connect with that game, that he connects with the domestic game, English coaches. It's been a problem for some time in English sport, whether you have people at the very top of these jobs who are from England, whether you go overseas for them. And actually, it's our job to make sure that when these jobs come up, that you do have English candidates who are top of the list. The very first thing that I had to do was get the best coach for this job, and I believe we've got that, irrelevant of where they come from.

The series in Australia was, by everyone's acknowledgement, defining for the Brendan McCullum era. He wasn't sacked after that, so what changed with the New Zealand series?

Well, results, clearly. I think we tried as best as we could after what had been a really important time, so 5 Test matches before that Ashes, everyone was talking about the side was out there, there was so much optimism going into that. I don't agree that Australia were a poor side. This rhetoric that Australia were rubbish— Mitchell Starc is one of the best bowlers in the world, Scott Boland is one of the statistically one of the best bowlers. They're now talking about him being in that batch ahead of the big 3 that they have. That is not a poor Australian side. So as much as that period may define Brendon, Ben, myself, and everyone else's eyes. I don't— I think they've done so much good for English cricket. I think it's completely unfair, the rhetoric where Brendon doesn't care. He could have walked away at any stage, Brendon, and he's taken a lot of flak, and he cares deeply about English cricket and trying to take it forward. And he's— his conduct and the way he's carried himself throughout this process as well has been outstanding. I can think of— I can't think of many people people that would have conducted themselves in the manner that he has throughout it in the last month. And I believe we've got, in Fleming and McCullum, we've got the two best people to take English cricket forward at the top of the tree.

Some might argue it's been a wasted Test summer in terms of the leadership, given that there was this sort of interim period, I suppose.

No, I don't agree with that. You never know what might have happened if we'd have done it a different way. I think we've now got Flemingham, McCullum, a white ball side that's what, just got to number 1 in the world in T20 cricket. That's a new generation a year and a half into a project with Ben and— sorry, with Harry and Brendan. They've just beaten what, the world champions in ODI cricket. I think in the Test summer, you never know, we've still got plenty of time to come. You never quite know what would have happened if we'd have made different decisions. We may not be in this position now where we've got, I think, the two best coaches going.

Could Ben Stokes have survived under a different coach, do you think?

I think that actually Ben was very clear on why he retired in that last game. And the same thing, I feel, count myself to be incredibly privileged to see probably as close a hand as anyone at what is probably one, been one of the best leaders in English sport. Not just captains in English cricket, but leaders in English sport. The way that he was able to transform an identity, a culture, a mentality. And that's not even mentioning the player he was as well throughout that. So English cricket has been one incredibly fortunate to have Ben Stokes as a player and a captain. And I reckon we'll see the repercussions of his leadership of this Test team continuing on, and any success they have will be because of what he's put in place.

There are some that say, well, McCullum's gone, Stokes is gone. How's Rob Key survive?

That's probably not a question for me. My job is to go out there and try and find and do the right thing that I think, or bring the right people in to go out there and help us sustain some success for this England team, whether it's white ball formats or Test match cricket. Whether I should have survived or not, or how I did, that's a question for the people above me.

But you're passion and determination to see this succeed is, is unbound.

I, I think all of those things, of course, but I actually think it's a realistic thing we can do. You know, as I said, this team now, they've lost a generation of players, bar Joe Root. I think Joe Root's going to be an outstanding captain. He doesn't have to deal with all the stuff that he had to deal with last time at the end of that reign. So I'm excited to see him. I have so much optimism. I look at the players, that's what it's always about. You look at the potential of that side. You know, we went in an Ashes series with blokes who play, what, 10 Test matches, 6 Test matches? Wait till they've got 25 Test matches behind them. What I'm seeing them do in the Hundred at the moment, you know, for once English bowlers in white ball cricket are the best one. They're the ones that you want. They're the ones you want to sign in this competition. Competition. So as much as I have passion for it, I think we've got a real chance to do something special.

Who approached Joe Root? Whose decision was that?

So throughout the process with a number of the candidates, you're asking these questions. I was very clear that I believe the process had to be coach first, captain second. The coach has to feel that he's got a say in who's coming in. So Steven and I spoke about that at length and we both agreed actually that Joe was the best person to do it. We clearly spoke to Joe as well, and his enthusiasm— I think the opportunity that he feels to continue something on that Ben Brendan had started, to refine it. Yes, he's now got, I believe, one of the most experienced coaches of international players going. He's got one of the best coaches, if not the best coaches, that he's going to get to work with in Steven Fleming. So I can't wait, and there's nobody who deserves a great period more than Joe Root. Do you worry about his form? I think he's the greatest player we've ever had with the bat, and every single time that he's had adversity or anything, the one constant has been his game. I think there's two ways to look at it. He could end up— this could be the thing that spurs him on for even longer. He's the best batter I've ever seen play for England, and I think he'll continue that.

Just finally, when can we judge this, this new phase? At what point will you say, yeah, this is, this is the point where we can say whether this has worked?

There's sort of two ways to answer that. When will you judge it? Probably in the first Test against Pakistan and on from there, and then every day since. To me, it's about making sure that this team, the refinement that you want to see, batters that go out there make good decisions, score runs, and play innings that win Test matches for England. A bowling attack that is relentless, does the basics really, really well with all the skill and attributes that they have. That's how I judge things, and hopefully that takes care of results. And clearly the big moment comes with that Ashes series next summer, but you want it to be— you want it to go on for longer than that. Australia's dominated cricket for for a long time. India are going like that. We need to be up there as well.

Rob, thanks for your time.

Pleasure.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode, I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, The Iliad, and The Odyssey, and that's with Kyle Smith-Bynoe joining us. And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist, discredited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desiree Burch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parris. So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to You're Dead to Me wherever you get your podcasts. Fast. Thank you, bye.

Well, the thoughts there of Rob Key, and some, uh, pretty interesting ones at that. Alex Hartley, David Milan alongside me. Uh, first things first, your reactions, David, to the appointment of, of Stephen Fleming and Joe Root. First of all, Stephen Fleming.

I thought Stephen Fleming was a, a pretty good appointment. Um, someone who's free to the market now, experienced in coaching around the world, um, coaching franchise cricket, um, very well respected, got a good aura about him, good presence, able to build teams and able to help teams win by creating a, a good environment, um, and a good team spirit. Um, I must admit I'm slightly surprised about the Joe Root, uh, bit, but I can see why listening to Rob Key, why he's gone that way. Harry Brook has got a lot on his plate. I thought Harry Brook was going to be the one that was going to get the job. I guess that also was dependent on the coaching staff. One of the reasons I would say Joe Root would fit for the new way that they want to go— if Harry Brook was the captain and he ran down third ball to the seamer in his first test, they probably would say, well, we're still back to where we were. So I guess the safe option to bring Joe Root back, who apart from his last 17 or 18 Tests actually had a really good record for England as, as, um, captain, is the safe option from that point of view. Because it does show a new direction of travel, that they want to go away from the reckless bazball, if you want to put it that way, to the more conservative traditional Test cricket.

Yeah.

Al, what was your reaction when you first heard the news? Because Steven Fleming's one of those names we've heard all about over the years in terms of the successes at Chennai Super Kings. But, you know, is there a difference between coaching at that level in domestic cricket or international?

Well, I just thought he was available. He lost his job at CSK, didn't he? So then he was available. Um, we don't know who the ECB approached before him. We don't know if people turned it down, if he was first choice. These are all the questions that we, we don't—

Well, well, Rob Key said that, you know, that Andy Flower was approached but didn't want to take part in the process. Lots of people were interviewed, and Fleming being the most obvious candidate from everything that was said.

Well then, I think that says enough, doesn't it? Available is what I would call that.

That's not a ringing endorsement. I wouldn't—

I'm not, I'm not saying anything against his coaching, by the way. I, I, I think he's done a fantastic job. Um, I think he's, you know, he can do a brilliant job for England, but it just, it just all feels very peculiar to me, and it feels like the summer's been a bit of a waste.

Now that's an interesting point, is it, David? Because the thing that I was trying to get into with Rob Key was, if this was a defining series in the Ashes in Australia and England failed so badly, why then have the New Zealand series and that be the straw that breaks the camel's back?

Yeah, I agree. I think the, the interesting bit is that they decided that that was the right way to go after the Ashes, and then 3 tests later they've decided, oops, maybe it wasn't the right way to go, and now we're going to change everything. So we're going to get a coach in who is more adaptable, who understands conditions, who is, who is a natural winner, um, and has done exceptionally well with all the teams he's been through. But then also to take a different captain who is going to be going down a different route with the way he sees the game, who is— I mean, Joe Root's the greatest player that's ever played for England and one of the greatest players ever played the game, but he sees the game differently to what a Ben Stokes sees it and probably sees it differently to what a Harry Brook sees it. So they've gone with the, the option that I guess is probably the new direction of travel that they want to go. But it doesn't—

or is it just a safe—

that's what I was going to ask. Is it a safe option?

But I guess the question is, who makes the decisions? Is it going to be Joe has come back and they've offered him the job and it's on his terms? Or is it Stephen Fleming has come in and it's on his terms? Or is it Rob Key's direction of, this is the way I want us to play play Fleming, you're the man to do it. And Joe Root, you just there to set the field. I, I don't know how—

has Fleming had any say in who's captain, or has that all just been Rob Key?

Well, from what Rob Key says, it was a case of when new coaches were identified as possibilities, it was all part of the discussion, you know, who would you want as captain, and then you go to Root.

Yeah, I feel, I feel sorry for the Mitchell route. He's not, he's not going to turn it down.

He's almost there by default.

He does everything for this England side, doesn't he? You know, he is the greatest of all side— of all side— of all time, and will do anything for England. And you, you ask him to jump and he'll probably say how high and when. And they've said, will you do that emergency test? He said, of course. Will you captain? He's not going to say no, is he? And I think it can't be Brook. I don't think he's mature enough to captain England in all three formats at the minute. I think there is a good captain within Brook somewhere, uh, but I think he's got to, to grow up a little bit. Jacob Bethell has too much to prove skill-wise to, to be captain. I know there's been talks of him potentially being a captain further down the line, but he's 22 years old, um, so there isn't really anybody else.

And just to go into what Alex has said there, if they seriously want to win the 2027 World Cup and the '27 Ashes that's a lot on one person's plate to give it to Harry Brook. So you fully understand that there might be a different direction of travel with the thought process and how they want the Test team to play, but also a good, I guess, looking after a player who's so valuable to, to England, to be able to say, actually, we are going to focus on you winning the, the 50-over World Cup in '27. Joe, you go and try and win the Ashes for us, and then after that we can reassess and see how, uh, Harry Brook has done, how his leadership has grown, and whether that is a possibility of him taking over all three.

It's funny, isn't it? You know, we, we were talking, you know, as we have for ages, about how Ashes define you as a captain and a coach. Well, Steven Fleming's not got any time to warm up into this and he's straight into an Ashes. Does, does he get the leeway or does that define him as a coach?

Well, this is what's interesting, isn't it? At what point are they going to judge this as success or otherwise.

Can't be after the Ashes. He's not— for me, it can't be.

But is that—

I signed a 4-year deal, hasn't he? So it won't be after this, it'll probably be the next.

But that's quite a useful position to be in, isn't it? Because from their point of view, they can all say, well, it's too early in the process if they don't go well in the Ashes, or wasn't this a marvelous appointment if it does.

I just find it all so odd how they've appointed a new coach but he's not available yet until the end of the international summer. Um, it just all feels a little bit last minute and it all should have been done earlier. But then, you know, Baz and Stokes at the start of the summer were very much keen on being in charge and taking this team further, and Stokes retired and Baz got sacked, and here we are.

I, I love the way you just seem so exasperated by it.

Just like, come on, can we not just have like 6 months of straight down the line normal cricket without ridiculous stuff going on behind the scenes?

No, I think—

is clearly not.

What about Rob Key's position? Because I asked him, you know, why is he the one that hasn't been spoken to or, you know, or had the tap on the shoulder?

But well, he might have if that's why he's made the decision on Brendan Cullum. You don't know what happens behind the scene. Rob has come in and he did a brilliant job early on with the T20 World Cup in 2022. He were, you know, oversaw bringing in Brendan McCullum. The Test team actually did really well for a period of time. They, you know, they looked like they were changing the way they'd gone about it in their previous regime where they won 1 out of 17 Tests, and the Test team was flying. Then it just sort of felt like it sort of stagnated a bit. And, and I guess now is the time— well, it was probably the Ashes was probably the time to make the decision. They've waited a bit longer now, and now he's made the decision. And, and I guess as he said in his interview, he he doesn't decide whether he keeps a job or not. There's someone above him, and if someone keeps telling him, we think you're the right man, then it's his job to then find the right people to work. And he thinks that Stephen Fleming is the right man, um, and Harry Brook is— so, uh, sorry, not Harry Brook, Joe Root. So that's the position that he's in at the moment.

Um, what about the prospect that was mentioned elsewhere by Rob Key of Ben Stokes, that door not quite being closed? Because I find this just— just cut the cord. Be done with it or not. Don't— this narrative dragging on, I just don't see how it can be good for England.

But if then Rob Key's saying it wouldn't surprise me if he came back, what's actually happened between— with Ben Stokes's retirement then? If Rob Key's saying I'm not closing that door, what's actually happened? Something else has happened then, isn't it?

Or he's just saying he's unpredictable and he might just turn.

Well, that is right as well, but I just don't believe nothing else has gone on behind the scenes. I really don't.

David.

Yeah, well, if he comes back, that's like— it sort of reads between the lines that there might have been a falling out somewhere between people. I'm not— that's all speculation. That's not me having any insight or any fact, but it would be strange. I mean, I know he's come out of retirement from the— for the white ball stuff before, and if he comes out again, then, you know, it sort of goes— to me, it goes a little bit against what Ben Stokes and his brand is. His brand has always been about the team. It's never been about him. It's always been about leaving England in a good place and if he was to retire and then come back out again, I'd feel like that becomes about him, and that's not his type. And I wouldn't put it past him doing it, but it probably isn't the best look.

Are you excited by the, by the prospect of this new leadership?

It's not happening for ages. We've got to, we've got to get through the Pakistan tour first, haven't we? And then get excited by it. I, I, I'm in of the mindset that I'm looking forward to Steven Fleming being in charge and seeing what he does with this team. Um, I think they do need to rein it in. I think they need to be a little bit stricter with certain things and what goes on off the field and on the field. Um, but I just, I would love Joe Root just to be able to play cricket.

One of the questions I was going to ask is, is Steven Fleming part of the selection for this Pakistan series?

Presumably not.

Well, if he's the coach moving forward, so what's he going to do? Are you going to just pick teams, a team for the next 3 Test matches against Pakistan, and then he walks in and goes, I don't like the look of them, bye? Or is he going to have an input in some say this is the way I want the team to play, go and find me these players for this series, and then he watches from afar. So I guess it is a tricky situation. Does Joe Root then suddenly pick it? Does Marcus North, a selector, then have the full say? Like, how does it actually work? And I guess they obviously know that because they would have discussed that before it, but I guess they're questions that we would like to know and understand. So everyone, when the team walks out next week, we know that this is the team that Steven Fleming and Joe Root and Rob Key and Marcus North want moving forward?

I think if the 11's very similar, then it's the way that they've been going, and it's, it's, um, picked by, I guess, what's happened in the last couple of months. But if you see Rory Burns and Tom Sibley, then that might be a new, a new way of things looking at it. Mala, strap your pads on, you might be coming back.

Oh no, please no, I've got no interest.

Right, you two, thank you very Thank you very much indeed. And of course you can follow that series starting on August 19th. We'll be live on air on BBC Sounds Test Match Special at 10:25, highlights with Today at the Test as well. Uh, it continues to be a fascinating and remarkable tale of, of English cricket that just keeps on giving and, uh, and causing Alex such exasperation. But there we go. By the way, I should also mention every ball of this year's 100 available to listen to on BBC Sounds, matches across BBC iPlayer and BBC Two across the tournament as well. So keep an eye out, uh, for Test Match Special regulars being on your TV screens as well as your radios. Thanks so much for listening, we'll speak to you soon.

This goes beyond what the KGB did back in the days.

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I'm James Montague, and from BBC 5 Live, this is Sports Strangest Crimes Presents: Shadows on the Pitch. Listen on BBC Sounds.

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Hello, Greg Jenner here. I'm the host of You're Dead to Me, the BBC comedy show that takes history seriously. Every episode I pair up a top historian with a fantastic comedian and we have a lovely, funny, fascinating chat about a different subject from world history. And in this new series, we're beginning with an epic voyage through the story of Homer, The Iliad, and the Odyssey, and that's with Kyle Smith-Bynoe joining us. And then we'll be learning about Francis Galton and the racist, discredited pseudoscience of eugenics with Desiree Burch. We'll meet many medieval saints in their bone boxes with Rachel Parris. So if that sounds like your sort of thing, listen to You're Dead to Me wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you, bye!