Knight bows out at Lord's

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But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000.

So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism, or is he just the king of the attention economy?

Find out on Good Bad Billionaire.

Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Night Waits on 99 still, and it's forward, pushing through the offside.

There it is.

Beats the dive of the fielder at short extra cover. Is happy with that single. She won't be happy with the situation in the game, but will and should feel an immense amount of pride at that innings. The England captain removes the helmet, waves the bat around the ground, and everywhere you look, supporters applaud what has been a superb performance from England captain Heather Knight.

Heather Knight is the victorious England captain. And England, ladies and gentlemen, are World Cup winners!

This one is pushed away. Is this going to be the century? She'll have to be quick, diving into the ground, and she makes it, going for the single. The bat is raised, it's the century that Heather Knight richly deserves. She has played extremely well. It got a little bit tough in terms of even getting her bat on ball yesterday late on, but it's still an exquisite innings. 3 figures for Heather Knight, desperately needed by England in this situation. And she had to be quick running through for that single, shy of the stumps, but she made her ground.

Knight is on 98.

Sutrit Rank moves in. It's a horrible ball. It's chopped away out to the deep. How many is that going to be? Is it going to be the 2 she needs for 100? I think it will. A little fumble in the deep and Heather Knight turns and comes back for a second run to bring up 3 figures. Off comes the helmet, the bat is raised around Marnika Oval, and the England captain for the first time in T20s reaches 3 figures. It's the first time in a T20 World Cup an England player has reached a century.

Heather, huge congratulations. What a phenomenal career you've had. Not many get the opportunity to retire on their own terms. When did you know?

Oh, I probably knew for definite probably 2 or 3 months ago, start of the season. I was pretty sure that I wanted to finish Home World Cup, Test match at Lord's. Yeah, it's obviously a very unique summer, an amazing summer. I've absolutely loved it. It's been so fun to be involved in. But yeah, as you know, each— we've probably discussed it a lot as friends for like the last year or so. Like, it's been at the back of my mind. And yeah, a lot of people that have retired have said to me, you'll know when it's right. And I thought they were full of rubbish and I thought they were convincing themselves they'd make the right decision. But yeah, I just knew. I knew it was the right time for me. I'm really excited for what's next and I'm really happy and content with my decision and Yeah, looking forward to a couple more days hopefully, and yeah, finishing up a place that is hugely special for me. Lord's is an amazing place. I've got some brilliant memories here. So yeah, I've known for a little while and yeah, obviously now everyone else knows as well.

Sometimes you might know, but actually it's harder to actually make it a reality. With the Ashes next year and after such a disappointing campaign last time round, Did you think you could hold on that little bit longer?

I thought about it. Obviously the nature of international cricket at the moment, there's always something to the next tournament, the next Ashes, whatever it is. There's always something around the corner to kind of keep going for, I guess. So yeah, it did sort of cross my mind to have one more go at the Aussies and I love Ashes cricket. I love playing in Ashes. So yeah, it certainly was something that I thought about. But yeah, to be honest, like I feel like after this summer probably haven't got the energy to keep doing what I need to do to be an international cricketer. And I've kind of always said that if I'm at a point where I feel like I can't give everything to the team, then that's the time for me to step away because I always wanted to be that person that, yeah, gives my full self to what I'm doing. So yeah, I feel like after this summer that probably isn't going to be there, that drive. And yeah, it wouldn't be fair to me or to anyone else to kind of hang on. So Yeah, it just feels right. It feels really special. I'm so happy, so content, and yeah, it just feels like the time for me to step away and move into a whole new world of retirement.

We'll come to that in a moment. The aftermath of the Ashes was a difficult period for yourself. How much did that contribute to this decision as well?

Yeah, of course it was tricky. Obviously, like, the injury was really tricky last year. Yeah, having to kind of go through that rehab and try and get back. And yeah, that was certainly something that did take a lot out of me. And obviously the aftermath of the Ashes, as you know, took a lot out of me as well. But excuse me. Yeah, I don't think it's contributed massively. I think, yeah, I know that I've kind of run my course a little bit and I have really enjoyed this period of my career, like going back into the ranks and Just being a player. Yeah, just being a player and being able to contribute in a different way. And yeah, I feel like I'm still contributing with the bat, which is really nice. And yeah, just having a slightly different relationship with some of the players in the dressing room is— yes, it's been really nice actually. I have really enjoyed it. But yeah, I just feel like that energy is kind of not there to continue anymore. I've had an amazing summer. I've absolutely loved it. I've thrown myself into it and really enjoyed it. Yeah, I felt like I've really— I'm still playing alright, to be honest. So that's a hard thing to step away from. But I also always wanted to sort of leave when I was still wanted, I guess. So yeah, I'm super happy and ready.

A bit of a rollercoaster week for you, obviously the World Cup final here at Lord's and now the first ever women's Test match here. So special occasion. A lot of different faces within this group. So how was it received within the dressing room last night and When did you know that that was the right time to tell everyone?

Yeah, so it was a tricky one actually, because a lot of the girls that I've played a lot of cricket with and that I'm close to in that T20 squad aren't here this week. So I was sort of, do I tell them? Can I trust them to keep it secret? That sort of thing. So I thought about speaking after the World Cup final, but it didn't feel like the right moment for me. I told a few players, I told Charlie Dean the day after the the World Cup that I was going to retire and then I've sort of gradually made my way around a few of the girls before it went out publicly. But yeah, I decided kind of yesterday at tea, it just felt right. It felt like the right time. I was keen to get it off my chest and keen for people to know. So I told Amy Jones on the balcony actually whilst we were watching cricket yesterday, which was a really nice moment. And then I sort of grabbed Tammy and apologised for stealing her thunder. Just as we were leaving the pitch and told Nat then as well. So yeah, obviously telling the girls in the dressing room and all the staff that have contributed so much to my career was a hugely emotional moment, but really nice, really nice to kind of share that with them. And yeah, pleased to get it off my chest because obviously I've known for a long time. I think maybe a few were surprised, but a lot of them kind of know where I was at and know that it was probably the right time for me and that I was super, super happy with my decision. Yeah, it's nice that everyone kind of now knows and yeah, I can go out and really try and enjoy today's game and try and enjoy being out there and being at Lord's. And obviously love Test cricket as well. Like I probably wouldn't have wanted to finish in any other format. Like it's probably some of my best memories have been in a Test match shirt. So to be able to go out there, even if it's another day in the dirt with the girls, yeah, I'm sure I'll really enjoy. The last day or two to come.

320 international appearances, which is the record number of appearances for England Women. It's been a stunning career. You won a World Cup here as captain in 2017, but going back even further, you were part of the MCC Young Cricketers. So yes, a lot of fond memories, a lot of fun here at Lord's. I remember those days as well. But it's a ground that you've been associated with for such a long time and just hearing you there talk about, you know, what a special moment it will be for you to finish here. You've got your family here as well. Just how big an occasion will it be, you know, when you walk out for the final time?

Yeah, it is really nice. Like, it is a super special place for me, and a few of my uni mates actually reminded me last night that I actually got my call-up here to England. So I was playing a university competition in the indoor school and it sort of went on the tannoy that I needed to come to reception. I had to ring Clare Connor and yeah, I actually got my England call up here. So that's, it's kind of really nice that it's come full circle. And like you say, it's a special ground for me. 2017 World Cup final, winning a Hundred final. Obviously it's my home ground in the Hundred and then obviously going into my role as general manager with London Spirit. So yeah, it's a place that feels like home for me. And yeah, it's mad really because obviously the history of of the ground and how the women before have fought for us to play here. So yeah, it feels like really special now and I feel so welcome and so at home and at ease here. And yeah, there's no other ground that I'd rather kind of finish up. So yeah, it's going to be really special. Like, I'll probably be a bit awkward and won't want all the attention on me a little bit, but it's been super nice for my friends and family to be here. Yeah, I've had them all up in a box for the whole week. So yeah, obviously they've kind of known that this is going to be my last game. So there's certainly a lot of emotion with them and it's been really nice and really special just to hang out with them and enjoy it and yeah, just have them here supporting me.

You've achieved so much across your career. You know, the first England player across the men's and women's game to score a century in all formats, having led England to World Cup glory here on this ground as well, as I mentioned before. It feels like you've experienced this ground in so many different ways, but across your whole career, what's been your proudest moment?

Oh God. Yeah, lots, I think. I think being able to go on the journey with the game, I think has been really special. Like obviously women's cricket was so different 16 years ago and how it's evolved, how it's got to the place it is now. Like I've been so privileged to be a part of that. It's probably been the biggest privilege to have a small influence on that. And I think probably the proudest moments are probably the ones that the people maybe don't see, like the work behind the scenes, the resilience to keep coming back after setbacks. And like a lot of the work that I probably did around trying to grow the game and like a lot of work with the PCA in terms of when I was England captain trying to improve conditions for us, trying to get more professional contracts, trying to, yeah, get the game where it is today and be a small part of helping shape that. I've been really grateful to go on that journey with the game and yeah, just super grateful for the people that I've shared it with really. Like that's probably the biggest thing that I'll miss and the thing that I'm most grateful for is the people in the dressing room, the cricketers that I've played with, the staff that have supported me often selflessly and been there for me in the good times, but also the tough times. So yeah, it's certainly the people that I miss and yeah, I'll just go away being just super grateful for what I've experienced, like coming from deepest, darkest Devon and a little girl never realised that I could experience what I've done in the game. So yeah, I'm very, very happy and very proud to have done that.

We knew you were always going to be capable of great things when you turned up for Reading, when club cricket was bigger than county cricket back then. You scored a century on debut. We knew then that you were going to be a superstar. Special cricketer and then obviously bumping me off the captaincy to become Berkshire captain. We knew you had incredible leadership qualities. How do you think you've used that when it comes to actually growing the players as well and the young players that have come into the game?

Oh, that's a part that I've absolutely loved, whether it be as captain or now as a senior player, like just being part of the start of young players' careers. It's like, it's so special. Like even like little Tilly, 18-year-old, coming into the dressing room and sort of being a part of her career and getting to know her and some of the younger players that I hope I've had a small influence on. And yeah, it was really nice in the dressing room. Yeah, the reaction from the girls, even though they probably, some of them knew it was coming and some of the messages that they sent me was a really nice touch. And just to know that, yeah, I've I've kind of hopefully helped them in some shape or form and like they've helped me massively as well. Like, yeah, the contribution that players have made to my journey, staff as well, like they've picked me up when I've needed it, inspired me, been a huge part of some special, special memories both on and off the pitch. And as cricketers, you share so much time together, you spend more time with with your teammates than you do your family and your friends. So yeah, it's a hard thing to say goodbye to because those guys have been alongside me, a lot of them for a long time. And yeah, I'll miss them, but hopefully they'll still want to hang out and enjoy heckling them from the crowd with the pims in my hand, I'm sure. But yeah, it's been amazing. And yeah, certainly the people that have made it really as enriching an experience in 16 years that I've had.

You haven't really changed your character in all that time either. Still happy to have a bit of a laugh with everyone. And I guess that kind of team culture, that team environment has been so important for you. You know, where are you going to find that going forwards?

Yeah, it's a good question. Like, that's the thing that I will miss as well. Like just being part of going on a journey with people, like having a common goal and just enjoying the day-to-day things that you do. And like even yesterday, just like watching the girls, the different characters in the team is just what makes cricket and what's so special about it and sharing those moments with those girls. And yeah, I think Shelley has come out a little bit in the last months, my alter ego that likes a little prank. But yeah, hopefully I haven't changed too much. Like I feel like I've kind of grown up with this team and it's It's certainly shaped who I am as an individual, not just as a cricketer, but as a person as well. So yeah, I'll go away with great memories and yeah, I'll certainly miss the people in there.

16 years of playing for England. Can you dig in one more time?

Well, I hope so. The body's not as good as it used to be, that's for sure. Special shout out to the medical team actually, they've somehow got me through 320 games. Taken a lot of patching up, so I'm truly grateful for them. But yeah, I'm ready to give everything for however long this game lasts. Obviously we're in a bit of a tough situation, but I'm really excited to get out there with the team one last time and yeah, try and give it everything and yeah, try and see what we can do. And yeah, I'm going to miss batting as well, so I'm really excited to get out there and bat again. And yeah, hopefully I can spend a little bit more time in the middle and really enjoy it because Yeah, just the mastery of the game has been something that I've really, really loved. And yeah, trying to master myself on a daily basis is something that I really enjoy and one of the toughest things. Cricket always challenges you as a person and the mental side of the game is a part that I've loved working about myself and trying to find different ways to get the best out of yourself. So yeah, I'm looking forward to hopefully doing that for one more time.

When I think about your legacy, that's probably what I go to is your mentality and your ability to fight back when you're under pressure and in games, outside of games, you know, when you've had your back against the wall, you've been able to come through. You've consistently got better as a cricketer. When people questioned you as a T20 cricketer, you went out and scored 100. When people questioned your captaincy, you went out and led the side to victory. That transition from Lottie to yourself, you handled that so well. You know, any time you've been in a difficult spot just here recently in the World Cup against the West Indies. It was a difficult pitch to bat on when people were questioning place in the side. You stood up there, mate, and I think that's what you can be so proud of on your journey. And I think you've inspired a lot of people in the game and outside of the game as well. What about for a young girl coming into the sport now? You've seen the transition and the change over the last 16 years. What message would you give to that young girl who's coming in?

I just enjoy it. Like, I think I'm really proud of where the game is at. And like when I was a kid, it was men's cricket that I was watching and it wasn't visible for me or there wasn't a path for me to be a female cricketer. And obviously so privileged and grateful for the career that I've had and the people before me that have played like yourself, Ish, to get it to where I've been able to experience. So yeah, it's really cool now that a young girl is in a another better place. And yeah, I guess it's for the youngsters in the dressing room as well to now take that forward and keep pushing the game to the heights that it can reach because it's really special. But yeah, that's certainly something that I'll love. I had my 6-year-old niece here this week and yeah, she's just kind of getting into cricket and just to see her experience that and find love in sport is a really, truly special thing. So Yeah, it's, it's pretty cool.

You've been an amazing role model for the game. Enjoy it one last time.

Thanks, mate. Appreciate it.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

This is summer at its peak. Whole Foods Market Summer Fruit Fest is your invitation to eat the season. Fresh, organic, and bursting with flavor. Start your day with peaches and organic blueberries and yogurt. Build a grazing board with fresh fruit, prosciutto, and artisanal cheese. Then fire up the grill with No Antibiotics Ever proteins and fresh produce. Savor the season. Shop Summer Fruit Fest at Whole Foods Market. How did a boy called Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos?

On Good Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, MrBeast, made his fortune.

He's buried himself in a coffin for days, counted to 100,000 on camera, and even recreated Squid Game, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet.

But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism?

Or is he just the king of the attention economy?

Find out on Good Bad Billionaire.

Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm sitting here with Isha Guo, who just did that interview with Heather Knight, teammates, longtime friend. You've known Heather since she was, what, 15? All the two of you were, were 15 playing for, for Berkshire together, and two World Cup winning teammates here, uh, in Alex Hartley and Catherine Siverbrunt. Um, Isha, from the interview you've done, it was clear that she had included you as one of her confidantes in chatting about her retirement. Did you believe her, and you're confident that she is content with this decision?

I think she is. Refreshing honesty is what I think of when I think of Heather Knight, because I wasn't expecting her to reveal that she had me as a confidante to speak to over the last year or so. I was just very much there as a guide. I still didn't know when she was thinking about actually talking to the team and and retiring for sure, because you just never know. You might be out there and suddenly you've got a taste for it again, and then you go, actually, I can keep going. So, you know, when she called me last night, you know, it was, it was very clear that, that she was ready to, to stop. But I do— she is one of those players that has found things outside of cricket as well. She, you know, whenever she went on tour, she would always try and get away and you know, go hiking or just find something different. So someone who can be passionate about lots of different things, and I just think she's, she's really looking forward to having that break now. Um, funnily enough, I actually just bumped into Elisa Healy, who sent her a message this morning to say, enjoy retirement, mate. I'm absolutely loving it. So yeah, look, I do, I do think she is— I mean, she's achieved everything that this game has to offer, pretty much. So she can be so proud of of everything she's done. There have been some really, really incredible highs, there have been some lows as well, and every time she's been able to kind of be— learn from those experiences and be accountable as well for her actions. So I think, you know, she should be really proud.

Yeah, Katherine and Alex, you both won the World Cup under her. What was she like as a leader for you, Katherine?

Um, yeah, she was, she was an inspiring figure. So I really look up to people who, you know, do what they say they're gonna do and practice what they preach. And that for me is all I need to become a better person and a better player. And Heather was certainly one of those people in my career that I would take inspiration from. She always trained extremely hard, her work ethic was second to none. She has a team-first attitude, not selfish at all according to some. And she would put her everything on the line. She'd walk through a brick wall for you. You know, she would bat for 1,000 hours. And she would show immense character. And passion for what she did. Um, yeah, and, and never wavered either. She always stayed so strong and not emotionless, but, you know, solid. You wouldn't be able to get penetrate that. Obviously, as a captain, that's really important to keep your emotions in check, something I struggled with my whole career. So yeah, very inspirational and a great cricketer and person.

I've never met anyone like Heather Knight in the best possible way. I've never met anyone that works harder. I've never met anyone that leads from the front in the way she did. I've, you know, I've never met anyone more resilient. The word resilient gets used a lot in cricket, but Heather Knight is so resilient through hip surgery, snapping a hamstring in World Cups, losing the captaincy, having that freedom to be who she wants to be, and then doing a hamstring again and missing the summer and coming back time and time again and still being the best version of herself is, is an incredible test of character and like shows what she is really about. When she got the captaincy, I've never seen anyone take feedback on as well as she did. You know, there was a lot of chat on, could you try and be a little bit more caring? Because she, you know, everyone's different, got different personalities, and that she worked so hard on that. So, so hard on making sure that if she hadn't picked you for a squad or a game or whatever, she'd be the first person to ring you and check if you're okay. So she had to really develop that side and she did it really well. And she's done it like just being able to not only go through the emotions and the roller coaster of women's cricket, but within herself as well. And everything she's had to change for the game, everything she's done for the game, but everything she's had to do for her own personality as well. She's truly, in the best way possible, an absolute animal in the way that she's been able to do everything that she has.

She has, and she mentioned, Nisha, some of her best memories for her have been in a Test shirt. What do you recall when you think of Heather Knight wearing the whites and playing Test cricket?

Well, she was made for Test cricket. I mentioned that story there. She came and played for Reading, and people had already been talking about her as this kind of tough player from down in Devon and who backed herself as well, which I think grated people initially. The fact that she was so confident when she first came came into, you know, county cricket and then eventually into the England team. And she liked to have a bit of a laugh as well and be a bit cheeky. And I think there were some that just didn't quite take to that initially until she started obviously putting those performances in. And, you know, I think quite early on we could recognize that she had leadership qualities as well. So yeah, scoring that century, you could tell that she was going to be brilliant when it came to the longer format. I just, you know, watched her a lot with the bat, and straight away you could, you could see that, you know, she just loved being out there. Played the first Test match with her in Bankstown. Unfortunately, we lost that one. Katherine was there as well against Australia. It was, it was, yeah, it was tough.

I was on the sidelines.

Oh, were you not playing that?

No, you were exceptionally—

Oh, thanks.

I think you got 10 for it, didn't you?

No, not in that one. No, no, that was, that was 2008. I'm talking about 2011 in Bankstown.

Oh, okay.

You were there.

Yeah.

Do you not remember?

I remember, was it a hat-trick of Renee Farrell? Yeah, I've obviously erased that. Not a good memory.

Um, but yeah, I remember her being quite chirpy there as a player, right? And getting stuck into the Aussies.

Yes.

And, and then obviously, you know, she went on to, to play many more, but scoring a ton against Australia. I remember the one in Canberra as well which was honestly, that was probably one of the best knocks I've seen from her.

Test match knock, 168 not out, and a really tense climax, wasn't it, to a draw.

I think one of the best knocks she's had actually, not just Test match cricket. The way that she managed to gain back control of that Test match for England, to then draw that Test match, showed what she's actually all about character-wise.

Yeah, I want to ask about her alter ego.

You talk about her being a bit of a cheek. She mentioned that interview with you, Isha. What is this alter ego and when does it surface?

What goes in the chamber stays in the chamber. Ah, she's retiring. I can't tell you the other half of the name. Shelley obviously rhymes with something, but she lived it to a max. I think when she first came in, an incredibly silly side, and Sarah Taylor was incredibly silly, and those two sort of became pals. And, you know, the silliness between them was where sort of the spark person was created. And everybody had their own sort of alter ego. Like, I was Ethel, exaggerating Ethel, because, you know, I like to put some—

you don't need to explain it.

I think the salt and pepper gets put on heavily. But yeah, they were the fun times when we were all celebrating wins.

Yeah, Shelley emerged after the World Cup win.

We didn't have any money or any people watching any of our games. We've got to really get the entertainment going for ourselves. You find these strange ways when you're younger to entertain yourselves, and they, you know, for me and probably for Heather, they were some of the best times of our lives and some of the best memories.

I think it came from her playing club cricket down at Plympton with the boys because she, she already had that as a teenager, just that chirp, that, that ability to, to be antagonizing to, to people. Um, and she won't mind me saying that. She, she knows that that's what she's like, very witty, very To the point and dry, yes.

So sarcastic, but you never know. You're like, have I annoyed her, or is she taking the mick out of me? Not quite sure. And then that side of Heather, the pranking side, and there are so many stories that aren't mine to tell of, you know, her pranking teammates and doing all sorts. Took over the captaincy, she kind of had to put that to bed a little bit, and then it was so nice to hear her say, that side of me's come back out again over the last year.

Quite another transition, isn't it, when you finish captaincy captaincy and slip into the ranks.

And you can sort of just— probably a weight off her shoulders and going, oh, I forgot that I don't have to have these meetings all the time with the PCA about improving the women's game and equal match fees and everything, everything that comes with captaincy. It's a very, very stressful job, um, you know, not having to pick sides and just going and playing and then just relaxing.

We can talk about her and the feats about becoming the first English player man or woman to score a century in all three formats of the game. She achieved that in 2020 when she got her maiden T20 International hundred, that one in Canberra. But it's also the off-field impact as well, Esha, and you've been witness to a lot of that work on the, on the PCA and the way she advocated. And she strived for others and for the wider game, not just her own cricket, her own batting, her own stats.

Absolutely.

And it needed someone like her, to be honest. You know, I was on the England Women's Player Partnership with her, so there's TEP and there's EWPP, which the PCA formed in this transition from, you know, the, the initial professional contracts of '18. When was it, 2014?

And she was one of those who got—

she was. And, and it wasn't just about the money, um, you know, it very much needed her to kind of manage hearing from the players about what was necessary and what they wanted, um, in terms of not feeling like second-class citizens. So making sure that families could come on tour and feel supported in that way. And, you know, other ways that the women could feel supported in that area. And, you know, very much worked together to kind of manage that transition to now we have, you know, 180 professional cricketers. It was a big moment in time, and she very much led that with the rest of the player group.

Yeah. And I guess Nat Zverbruntse is one of those who is benefiting from that with the two of you having Theo and everything that's come as regards contracts. There's a lot of people behind the seen to have had an input in, even from within Team England itself?

Yeah, there's, there's, there can't just be fight from one place, right? When, when we fight to make things happen, it's a collective effort. There's all— there's never one person behind something, right? Because it always takes a bit of influence, a bit of noise, a bit of hard work to really push things forward quicker than in another 5 years' time. Myself and Natalie, we sort of thought about that, you know, before, a good year before we did, and it was right, let's start having these conversations, and then there was that, a group made with the doctors and the physios and the consultants from fertility clinics and it was just like, right, this could happen, and then the county started getting involved and we sort of having these surveys and these questionnaires and And even though the questions were sort of going on, and then the ECB know obviously that this is the way the Australians are doing it, because you always look at who's leading the way, right, with stuff, and then you want, you want to follow in suit or set the standard. And there's so much work that's been done on, on so many different subjects, and she would just be really happy and proud to, as we were, to have a small part in that becoming what it is today. Yeah. And so I'm moving on.

And it's right that it is acknowledged at somebody's retirement that the work, as she put it, or as you put it, you should, in the interview, that people don't see behind the scenes. So much is important.

So many, so much. Yeah.

On the field. How did she manage you as a fast bowler, Katherine? Not a loaded question at all.

Um, good question.

It was, it was such a Extreme transition, right? Because I obviously knew Shelley. It was all about Shelley, and me and her bonded a lot on that level because I'm a bit of a Shelley in my own way, um, in a really sensitive way. And I really missed that side of her. So when she became the captain I never got— we never got that back. It almost became like, these are my serious boots and this is my serious hat, and I've got to be this person now. And I was really sad about that because I'd lost a lot of teammates, you know, Ish, Nikki Shaw, so many along the way. And you have that thing where you just, as you keep going, you sort of consistently keep losing the people that you have for certain things. For your downtime, for your serious chats, and I suddenly lost Heather as that person. And then that was a really hard transition for us actually, and the way that we work, because suddenly, like, obviously if I threw a tantrum, she couldn't be on level with me. She had to dull that down and really get me to focus and control my emotions, which was so strange for me. Because she suddenly just felt like this member of staff, this— and it was a really hard bit to do because one minute you're best mates and you're, you know, you're daft, and then the next minute she's your almost your— your senior, isn't she? Yeah, I guess. Yeah, it's a very strange thing, but it took a lot of time, a lot of work, but we did for a lot long— a lot of time we worked so well together.

And on the field, if you said I'll need this end, Skip. She gave it to you?

Not always, but that was what was— I think that was the good bit that I never— I never saw this bit in our relationship till after. It was good for me because I needed that, but I didn't want it at the time. Do you know what I mean? It's a hard thing to explain.

You can look back in retrospect.

That was good for me. She actually gave me what I needed to carry on.

Yeah, I think that was one of her huge strengths as captain, was understanding and getting to know every player and what they needed. So, you know, Katherine needed something completely different to what I need. I needed a hug, a pat on the back, and just say, I'm with you, and just, just look at me at extra cover. Because if I looked around the crowd, I'd be sick. I'd be so anxious and I wouldn't want to be there. So Heather would just be like, look at me, and we'll just, just me and you here, nobody else. And Katherine didn't need that. I needed that, you know. Anya didn't need that. And she knew everybody and the youngsters coming through. She, she got to know them and she used to say like, what's your routine? So I make sure that I know you're doing minute before a game and the occasion doesn't get on top of you. And that takes a hell of a lot of energy, especially when you've got to warm yourself up and concentrate on yourself. And I think that just shows that she's very, very selfless. And I know that there's been a headline today calling her selfish for retiring. I think you couldn't be further from the truth.

For retiring timing-wise during the test, which is not an unusual thing for a player.

No, I, I think that couldn't be further from the truth when it comes to Heather Knight.

Isha, we've talked about the highs, the World Cup win, the hundreds, the victories. The lows come as well. How hard was the 16-nil Ashes for her when she lost the captaincy? Yeah, it was close to her.

Yeah, very difficult. Very, very difficult. I think in the way and the manner of it all was quite brutal as well. And I think she obviously understood that with more visibility comes more criticism and more pressure and And when you have a scoreline like that, you have to expect that, you know, heads are going to roll. But I think, yeah, that was a, that was a tough time for her. I think any time losing the Ashes was a difficult time, to be honest. I remember 2015, that was particularly brutal. And actually, you know, we didn't talk too much about cricket. And again, she won't mind me saying that she's quite stubborn, which made her a good leader. But it was very hard to break that. Hard shell exterior. And I think she realized after then that vulnerability was important too, not just for her friends but for teammates. And I think, again, when you talk about her learning from experiences, she definitely did that. And I think at some point after the Ashes, she had to just take it on the chin, get down to business, and I think again, testament to her character, she just slotted into that team. I don't think a lot of other captains, previous captains, could have done that and just set back and, and allowed another captain to come in and thrive and try and be part of an environment that was going to come change completely. Um, and you know, when you think about all the headlines and how things were written up on the back of that Ashes, there wasn't a lot of focus on what, what they actually had achieved in terms of taking out that fear of failure for a lot of players through that period. I know it led to— you've got to see results, and we're seeing this a bit with the men's team right now. Ben and Baz at the start of that tenure, Joe Root, under Joe Root, 1 in 17 Test matches they won, and then they, they ended up winning a lot of Test matches soon after.

Need some water each.

I might need some water. You guys carry on, you know what I'm trying to say here, but but it very much helped this team get to another place for then Nat to come in and take over.

Yeah, and I think from that point of view is that they just started to change things and the team had almost changed and they're playing in a way that they're not used to and they didn't get the results straight away but we're starting to see those results now. And also that was very alien for Heather to play like that, you know, you think of Heather Knight, she was built for Test cricket, uh, very alien for her to go out and be like right, let's take the game on. And she did it so well. In another way, she's adapted her game.

Yeah, yeah, we've seen those performances right through the latest T20 World Cup. Again, the evolution through Test matches, through ODIs, and, and still being successful playing in the T20 team right up to now, her international retirement. Um, very final thoughts. The players are coming back out for this afternoon session. Mention her nickname Shelly, the nickname Trevor all through her career as well, for people who have forgotten or can't remember where Trevor came from.

So I played with, um, a girl called Daisy Gardner who played for Berkshire, and, um, it was— I think it was an England trials that basically they just met, introduced herself, misheard her name, and she forever became Trevor.

Right.

Trev for the rest of, rest of time.

To her retirement.

It's on my phone as Trev.

Is she?

Same.

A marvelous servant to the game, a career as captain which even spanned 2016 to 2025, 3 different coaches and 6 different prime ministers during her captaincy. And Mark Lane, Paul Shaw, Mark Robinson, Lisa Kightley, to John Lewis, to then Charlotte Edwards, she has been the consistency throughout the last 16 years of international cricket. Ishagur, Alex Hartley, Katherine Siver-Brunt, thank you very much indeed.

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