Leading England's Attack: Josh Tongue looks ahead after Ashes

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. England's men's Test summer begins next week. New Zealand are the opponents at Lord's, and we've got a women's T20 World Cup on the horizon. England beat New Zealand yesterday, so they're the two big, uh, focuses of the next hour. Matt Prior and Stephen Finn, two former England players, are with us, as is the BBC's cricket correspondent Stefan Schemmel. And I'm delighted to say as well From the men's camp, England bowler Josh Tong joins us as well. So I'll go come straight to you, Josh. I can't be bothered with Finny or Matt or Stefan. We'll come straight to you. They could talk, they've got plenty of time to talk. How would you describe the overall feeling within the squad and the camp after, you know, difficult times?

Yeah, it was obviously a difficult time in the Ashes. Obviously a bit of a new look squad now. But yeah, obviously we got to Loughborough yesterday, got around everyone, and everyone's coming to the camp excited.

When you all meet up again, do you immediately go into meetings, or is it a sort of more relaxed start?

Yeah, it's fairly relaxed, just seeing everyone, having a coffee here and there. First day was a bit of fitness testing to start. So yeah, I was on the bike. I didn't really enjoy the bike that much. Some of the lads were running around the track. And then some like strength testing. But yeah, it's fairly relaxed at the minute.

Before the other— before the others come in, how do you reflect on what was obviously a really disappointing Ashes experience from a team point of view and overall, but with positives for yourself? Because I would have thought the— I know it's a team sport, but the individual positives have to play a part in your psychology, surely.

Yeah, obviously when we were going out there, we were hoping to win the Ashes. Obviously that didn't go our way, but yeah, on a personal note, I was pretty chuffed how I went when I came in at that third Test match. And then obviously Boxing Day as well, which I'm always going to remember for the rest of my life, which was an incredible feeling. I think of 95,000 people there, family in. So yeah, it's— yeah, it was amazing.

How do you feel? How you feel? How's your rhythm feeling this season?

Yeah, it's feeling good. I'd say start first game, close on restricted overs against Glamorgan. It just felt like I was sort of in and out of spells, but as soon as that second game came, I went on in restrictions, so I was able to sort of get my rhythm. And yeah, I feel like I'm in a good place physically. I've got through a decent amount of overs in the games that I've played. Um, so yeah, I feel I'm getting there.

Can I just ask you, I'm not trying to get you into trouble with anybody here, but restricted overs, does it, does it frustrate you? I mean, we all understand the reasoning behind it, but you presumably know your body better than anybody and what you need. How much can you feed into the process?

Well, I think it was just due to obviously being in the World Cup I didn't play in that, I think, because my overs were fairly down from the Ashes. So we had to build my overs back up in training, and I wasn't meant to be playing that Glamorgan game. And I said to Kevin Shine at the time, I was like, I feel like I'm ready to play. So then he obviously had the chat with England, and they said, you can have 25 overs in the game. And I was like, that's, yeah, that's better than nothing. I'd much rather be playing rather than bowling into a mat. So it's definitely benefited me in that way.

Because you want to bowl, don't you? I mean, this is a big discussion we have a lot. You're aware of discussions that go on. As a bowler, you want to bowl.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I feel like I get better at each game I play, just getting that sort of rhythm. And like, obviously you can do so many overs in the nets against the batter, but when you get to outside in the middle against a different opposition, it's just completely different. The intensity goes up. So in that sense, that was good for me to sort of play in that second game against different batters.

What are you looking forward to this summer the most, mate? Is it slightly new look attack, isn't it? And a couple of new faces that you wouldn't have bowled with before, having cemented, in my opinion, your spot in the team throughout that Ashes series. What excites you the most about this summer?

I think obviously it's going to be two amazing series against two good teams. I want to sort of, if I do get the nod for that first Test match, I want to try and influence the game as much as I can. That's what I try to do in the Ashes in the winter. As soon as Stokesy gave me the ball, I tried to impact the game, and frankly, it worked in those games. And I want to put the team in good positions to win games of cricket. So hopefully, if I do get the call for that first Test at Lord's, I'm going to try and do exactly the same.

Josh, there's been so much said about the team performance in the Ashes. Of course, we don't have to go into that now because we've got you sat here. As I agree with Finny, a standout performer for the team, and congratulations to you for that. I thought you were brilliant. The question I have is, is what personally did you learn from, from the Ashes? What went well for you and what are you going to take from that and implement into this summer from a technical perspective, a mental perspective, whatever, whatever it may be?

Um, I think one of the biggest things for me was my fitness. Um, obviously it's a lot different bowling in the UK compared to Australia where obviously the temperature is 40 degrees, especially Adelaide Test. Um, I was actually over the moon how my body sort of pulled up after that first day. And in terms of like how I bowled as well, obviously I got some top-class batters out, like the likes of Steve Smith. So I think just having the confidence that I can get these good batters out and try not to bowl too hard and put too much pressure on myself. I'm such a chilled guy, and so I try and have fun as much as I can when I'm on the pitch. Obviously I'm going to have spells where I'm not going to be bowling my best, but I know if I just hang in there, I'm going to get a good spell, and that's where I'm going to get the wickets for the team.

Josh, you'll have seen all the, all the chat since the Ashes about, I don't know, how the England environment might change post-Australia. We know that there's, there's more coaches around the camp than there has been in Loughborough. I think there's a chef coming in before the first test next week. Does it feel different? What have you guys spoken about? Have you noticed, I don't know, change in approach?

Um, there hasn't been too much chat. It's been, it's been good training, to be fair, at Loughborough. Um, the intense has been really high. Obviously we've got Troy coming now who's been amazing with me. Um, he's been to a few of my games. He knows Shiny really well, so they've been speaking quite a lot. Um, and I know he's going to help so much for English cricket. It's obviously He's been with the likes of all the Aussies and the Indian bowlers as well. So it's going to help me definitely. And yeah, it's just good to be back around everyone back at Loughborough.

So when you say he's been amazing for you, what is he— yeah, I don't— we don't suppose you want to give all the secrets away before you start to play this summer, but what is he doing with you that is tapping into what you need?

I feel like because I'm such a chilled guy in terms of my approach to bowling, I'm He's sort of seen that already, not saying too many technical stuff with me because obviously I bowl past the perpendicular and obviously a bit of an orthodox position at crease. So yeah, he's quite a funny guy as well, Aussie. So yeah, he's just been very chill to me. Even today we had a double spell against some of the batters and he was just stood at the back Not saying too much, but if obviously if we needed to ask a question, he was there for us.

There's no Anderson, there's no Broad, there's no Wokes. You sort of keep talking how chilled and relaxed you are. Do you want to lead this attack?

Yeah, I'd say yeah, 100%. I've always wanted to play for England. That was my dream growing up as a kid. And yeah, I feel like if I try and I put good performances in for England when I get called upon. That's going to put the team in good stead. And I bowl for the team, I don't bowl for myself. If I do have to do the tricky overs, if that's going to bump the plans when Stokes gives me the ball, then I'll do it for the team.

What's that relationship like then with all the other fast bowlers? Because this isn't years gone by of, you know, '3 fast bowlers and there we go,' or '4 fast bowlers and the spinner and there you go.' You know, when you are on tour, you're seen as a group of 6 or 8 or whatever it may be. You are, you are seen as a pack that has to be rotated given the modern demands of the game. So do you view yourself as a team, or do you view yourself as in competition with each other?

I see it as a team. Well, we all want to do well, we all want England to win, and I'm sure the fans want that as well. So it's going to go through stages where people probably need a rest because obviously how hard it is on the body. And obviously we've got like Sonny coming into the squad who's young and enthusiastic, and he's fitting really well with the squad. And obviously Matty Fisher as well, who's with us part of the Ashes towards the back end, and he's a very good bowler. So I don't look at it as competition, I just think it's very exciting.

And what would a successful summer look like for you by the end of it?

Um, I feel like cementing my name in the first 11, um, and obviously winning the series as well, um, and winning games of cricket again for England. I think that's my main goal.

Thank you very much for giving us your time, Josh. Go well this summer. Good to talk to you. Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Cheers. Josh Tong with us on Five Live Cricket. I still go back, Finny, to— I mean, I know I shouldn't because there's lots of positive there, But bowling restrictions drive me round the bend.

Yeah, I guess that with your question. I thought I saw your face going a bit red on the screen there, Kappers, and that's why. Yeah, it's a funny one, isn't it? And actually, he gave a really honest answer, he said, and I commend him for taking control of his own game because sometimes it's really easy in that situation to say, I'll just bowl through to a mere But he said to his coach, I want to bowl game overs. And for me as a bowler, the difference between game overs— and we saw it for England in the Ashes, right? They were underprepared going into that first test. They didn't have the game overs under their belt, and that hurt them throughout the early part of that series. But he said, I have an opportunity here to make sure that I'm as best prepared for that first test match as I can possibly be. And the difference, honestly, the difference in your soreness, the difference in your intensity Everything about it is so different in a competitive game situation. So I commend him for that. And yeah, the restrictions are frustrating when you hear it in the plain light of day, but I would be the same as Josh. If I had 25 overs to bowl, I'd rather do it in a game than not.

How important is it, Matt, to find a leader for this attack?

Gonna be crucial. It's gonna be crucial. As we know, no Broad, no Anderson. Not even a wokes when, you know, Broad and Anderson weren't there, he'd sort of step in. But it is an exciting time. I think it is. It's an exciting time that you gotta remember when, I remember there was absolute turmoil when Peter Moore selected Broad and Anderson instead of Hoggart and Harmison. And it was the same conversation, you know, oh, these two young lads coming in. Jimmy Anderson used to get hammered for his technique. I remember boycott. We used to talk about in the dressing room, boys was all over him. You can't stare at your feet when you're delivering the ball. 'Who is this kid? He's gonna, you know, where's he come from? He's gonna go nowhere.' And lo and behold, he becomes one of the greatest, if not the greatest, we've ever had. So watching young fast bowlers come through like Josh Tongue is a— it's an exciting, um, new, new start. But they have to, they have to grab the opportunity. Um, I thought he was outstanding in Australia. I mean, he was really one of the— maybe even the only positive. Um, And let's hope he starts the summer well. I just think, Finny, on that point about bowling, we used to— how many pre-seasons did we do, right? And you spend hours. It's interesting you said, oh, the first thing they did in Loughborough was fitness testing, right? And you go and lift some weights and do a bit of a run around the track. But I'll tell you what, until you've done your first 7 hours in the dirt again, in the field, bowling, keeping, it doesn't matter what you do in the gym. The only thing that prepares you for playing is playing. And I wonder, from a bowling perspective, certainly from a keeping perspective, that's what it was. Um, is it the same with bowling?

Yeah, absolutely. And even as far as— so in the nets, I, I would be someone who felt as though I was running in hard in the nets. I would always try. I'd never coast in the nets. But, um, you wake up the next day, you're a little bit sore, um, but then you bowl in a game, and it doesn't matter whether it's a warm-up game— a Test match is another intensity on top of that, clearly— but a warm-up game, a first-class game, And I'd find I'd be bursting through my socks, like the force through the crease was so much more, my toes would be bleeding. You need to build up those calluses on the top of your feet that you get from bowling lots of overs. And you're right, Matt, that the only place that you can do that is playing competitively in the middle. And it's not a feeling that I wish to ever revisit because that first day, you wake up at 5 o'clock in the morning to go to the toilet and you kind of step out of bed, your first step, and you're like, okay, that's not too bad. And then you take your second and you think, I'm not sure I'm making it to the toilet here, and you creak your way there. And it's not a pleasant feeling, but you have to go through it in order to be prepared to play proper cricket.

Yeah, as someone who's 15 years older than you, Finney, let me tell you that that feeling will come back to you at some point.

Damn it.

Yeah, virtually on a nightly basis. Anyhow, Stefan, when you asked him that question about what has changed, were you expecting things to have changed immediately?

No, um, but I think it's a thing that we're all looking out for, um, probably starting from next Tuesday actually, when, when the media goes down to Lord's. So England will train on Monday, um, and we won't be there. Then, then we'll see them from Tuesday, train on Wednesday, and the Test match starts on Thursday. But that's all we've spoken about really, isn't it, since the Ashes, of what is going to be different. Because they haven't changed the personnel, they haven't changed the director of cricket, they haven't changed their head coach, they haven't changed the captain. And actually, when the 11 lines up on Thursday morning, most of the 11 will have been in Australia as well. They've beefed up the backroom staff. There's some new coaches that have come in. Sarah Taylor's come in with a, with a fielding specialism. Troy Cooley, that Josh Tong spoke about, but we were led to believe that Troy matthew keeley was coming in anyway even before the Ashes happened. There's a few other coaches around as well, but what is it that we're going to see different from England? What, what do supporters want to see that lessons have been learned? Go on, Finny.

What, what do you want to— this sounds like a pointed statement— what do you want to be different? Because you followed it closer than anyone for the last few years.

I think The main thing is, my problem with England is a lot of their problems on and off the field are self-inflicted. And if you go back to before the Ashes, most of their, um, most calamitous defeats came from when they were in positions of strength. Going all the way back to Wellington when they lost after enforcing the follow-on. They lost at Edgbaston in the first Ashes Test after they declared. They lost at Lord's in the Ashes after Nathan Lyon hobbled off. Um, they lost a Test match at the Oval against Sri Lanka that they should have won. Against India in that big run chase when Chris Woakes came out with with a dislocated shoulder when they needed— was it 70?— with 7 wickets in hand. A lot of those defeats were self-inflicted. Same again in the Ashes in Perth, they were 105 ahead with 9 wickets in hand and they lost. Can England— it's great that they had this reputation of big run chases in the fourth innings, but the reason they had big, big, um, run chases in the fourth innings is because they conceded a lot of runs anyway. So can they become a team? It's great that they had this reputation of being able to pull off death-defying run chases and victory from the jaws of defeat. But sometimes just hammering a team's great, isn't it? Can they, can they put those situations to bed when they get on top?

Um, this is our first Five Live Cricket since England announced the appointment of former Australian batsman and Durham director of cricket Marcus North as the new national selector. Now both Matt and Stephen were involved in this process. How— first of all, before we get on to the appointment of Marcus North, how thorough did you both find the process? Matt?

Well, I was involved. I don't think I went quite as far as Finney did. I had an initial conversation with Rob Key. I spoke to the recruitment guys at the ECB. And that's really, I never put a formal application in. So it'd probably be unfair of me to comment on how thorough it was, just off the back of those couple of conversations.

Okay, Stephen?

Yeah, well, I clearly didn't get it 'cause I'm still sat here with you three, so that's all good.

Every cloud and all that.

I know, I know, what a life. No, look, I, to be honest, in the end, if I was, offered it, I'd have, I'd have said no because actually I don't think it's the right time for me to be doing a job like that. Um, but, um, I was asked if I'd consider applying, and I have an interest in cricket administration. I'm involved in it at my, um, at my home club Middlesex. And, um, I love the broadcasting. I genuinely— it's something that I really love doing. Um, and it would take a lot for me to walk away from that right now. But, um, but yeah, it was something that interested me because it felt as though this job comes at a time when the person can make a difference to English cricket. Um, so I went through the, the interview process, um, and yeah, I felt as though it was thorough. You were asked about white ball cricket, Test match cricket, um, you were quizzed and challenged on the things that you said, and you had to be able to back those up. So Um, yeah, can I—

Steph is going to come in a moment, but can I just ask you what you understood the most important part of the role to be? Because the, the sort of title National Selector implies you, you pick all the squads, right? That would be what, what an implication is of that job title. But how did, how did you understand the role from the interview process?

Well, I think it's a little bit fluid as to who does the job, um, and I think that it's important that, um, it wasn't a role, um, that you had to try and fit a round shape into a square hole. I don't think it is a job like that. Um, I think the job has to morph to the person that gets its strengths. Um, I think clearly this role needs to be a bit more visible and a bit more front-facing, and I think we'll probably see Marcus North explaining more decisions. But ultimately, for me, I think it has to be a collaborative role because I don't think we're at a stage now in the cycle, especially with the fact that the coach and the managing director of cricket have stayed on in their roles. I don't think it's a time for the selector to come in and completely rip things up. I think it has to be collaborative, and I think that the role has to challenge but also give space for everyone to have a voice in the room. Um, but yeah, I, I didn't get as far as understanding how a selection meeting would work if you were to be the, the, um, the head selector, but, but certainly my feeling was that it should be a collaborative role.

It was explained— sorry, just quickly— it was explained to me that there wasn't actually a role description per se. It was more about finding the right person. And then fitting the role around the person, which was slightly confusing, if I'm honest. The questions I had were simply, you know, is this role gonna just be another tick box, or is this person gonna be able to sit there and challenge and actually have a genuine opportunity to influence English cricket in a positive way? I.e., if the coaching captain wants a certain squad, can you sit there and go, I don't agree with this, have we looked at this person, that person, the next person? What are the actual standards required to be selectable as a batsman, for instance? Do you have to average over 30 per se, you know, or hopefully more like 50, right? Like, what is actually the criteria for selection? Are those conversations going to be had? Is that what this person is going to do and bring to the role? Um, and I, I didn't really get an answer, if, if I'm honest. Uh, as I said, I didn't get very far in, in the process, but, um It felt very much like they were sort of throwing the net out to see what options they had. I think there were a few. Finney probably knows more than me, but yeah, there wasn't a role description.

I think just on the back of what Matt's saying there in terms of trying to find the right person, and I think a few of us— and I don't know if you were the same, Finney, when you were going through the process I was under the impression that the person who would get this job was going to become the chairman of selectors as we knew it in the past, and I don't think that's the case now. And it's interesting to see some of the wording that the ECB used when they announced Marcus North as the new national selector. I'll just pick a couple of lines out. It said, in his new role, he will contribute to the selection of all England men's squads. And then later on, as national selector, North will work collaboratively collaboratively on selection matters. So as it's been explained to me, is that Marcus North is not necessarily a chairman of selectors as we may have understood it in years gone by. I think it's much more a case of an equal voice on that selection committee. But also in the case of, of what Matt is saying in terms of finding the right person, I thought a lot about this through the process of England going through it. What makes a good selector? What is it? From Finney, from your point of view as someone who's applied for the job, and from Matt as a player who played in a really successful England team and a lot of that time, and particularly when Matt— when England becoming the number one side in the world, players seem to come in and hit the ground running a lot, which meant they were chosen correctly. But in all the criteria that you think of, of jobs that go into elite sport, I don't know, select a good selector, I don't know what that is. It feels a bit hard to define how someone would be good at that job.

Yeah, look, I, I think that For me, I think the major part of the job— I think that generally in the Test team there's probably 2 or 3 slots up for grabs at any one time. Um, clearly the, the opener and the spin position were the big ones, and the fast bowling a little bit, but more the opener and the spin position. Um, I, I think the, the big role is finding the next generation of players, um, and nurturing them and making sure that they're as best prepared as possible, that when they come into the first team, that they have the attributes and the mentality to be able to deal with international cricket. I think that is one of the major and main parts of the role. And then I think contributing to, as Matt says, challenging decisions. I don't think you're there to override decisions. That's not how I would interpret the job. I think you're there to challenge and provide checks and balances for when decision and selection calls are made.

It still is, it still is, um, you know, out on a limb, isn't it, cricket, or this system compared to any of our other major sports? You know, nobody, nobody challenges Thomas Tuchel's World Cup selection. Nobody challenges Steve Borthwick. Well, they may challenge him, but I mean, he, they, you know, he picks who he wants. Same with Steve Borthwick with the Rugby Union, or Sean Wayne when he was in charge of England Rugby League. He is anymore. It, it's— it does feel like an overcomplicated system, doesn't it, Matt?

I think, I think potentially, um, and I completely— I take what you're saying, but, but I think this word challenge is, is a really important one right now, where we've obviously seen a coaching captain get autonomy around not just the team, but also the culture by which they're going to play. Now, that's always going to be in the coaching captain, always going to be in charge of that within the dressing room. But with young players coming in, I think that it's very difficult for the England coach to be out. So one thing I would add to what the selector needs to do and what makes a good selector is they've gotta watch a lot of cricket. They've gotta be at the cricket grounds. And you know what? Not cricket that's being streamed to your phone. You need to be at the cricket ground because you need to see how players walk. You need to see how they move. You need to see how, do they walk into a stressful situation and make good decisions? Do they show intent? Do they not? There's certain things you pick up live that you can't pick up through a streamed feed. So the selector, and that's very difficult for an England coach, As, and I know, I know McCollum's, you know, popping it because he's not in the country and he should be here and he should be watching. But the reality is he has to coach the England cricket team and he has to get those 11 players right to go and win the first Test match of the summer. That's where I think you do need the support within the leadership group, of which a selector would be one of those people, because their role is to be the person that is out there talking to the directors of cricket, talking to the coaches, talking to everyone that knows, right, who are the young players coming through? Who's impressed you? Who should I go I go and watch? Who should I go and see? And then actually physically be there watching these guys perform so that they can come with not a guesswork, you know, not a bit of guesswork and a stat pack. Because the stats are all great, fine, but they've actually been there, they've seen that, they've seen the players, they've spoken to the players, and they can give a really good assessment of is this guy ready to play Test cricket. Because the step up is huge, let's make, you know, from, from first-class cricket, and that's not That's not putting first-class cricket down in any way, shape, or form, but the step up from first-class cricket in England to Test cricket is a big step. So I think the selectors' big role is to— or one of their important or key parts of the role is to make sure that they've assessed players that are ready to make that step up.

I think we could probably fill a whole show on how cricket is probably 20 years behind some other sports in terms of high performance. And you know, when I was mentioning that the the chef coming in to the England team next week, to Josh Tong. I think probably a lot of League One football clubs and even League Two football clubs have probably got their own at the minute. But in terms of when you're talking about the selection side of it, Mark, there's just a practical element of it, isn't there? For Thomas Tuchel, he can go and watch 4 Premier League matches in a weekend, and the England football team might meet up 3 times before Christmas and twice after Christmas. He's got all that time to go and watch, um, footballers play and As Matt said, you know, there's been some debate over whether Brendan McCullum should have been in this country in the early part of the season, but in defense of him, even if he was here, there's just not enough hours in the day for him to get around and see everyone. And if there was a player that broke their finger during the first Test match, um, he would have been with the England team and he wouldn't necessarily have had that bank of knowledge or been able to go and watch someone else in terms of a replacement. And England aren't on their own in having a selection panel. Every other country does it. And a couple of years ago, when Chris Silverwood was given the role of head coach and basically sole selector, the supremo if you will, it just didn't work. They've got to have that support around them because there's not enough time for the coaches to get around and see all the players.

So if it's about support, if it's about facilitating, if it's about talking to people and watching people, does nationality matter? Steven?

Uh, in my opinion, no, I don't think it does. I think it has to be someone who has sound cricket knowledge, someone who can spot a player. And you hear cricket former players and people say, can you spot a player? It is a massive skill to be able to sit there and watch a player and say he's going to be good, he's got what it takes, or looks to have got what it takes to be good. And I'm not sure your nationality, um, that really matters. And I think are we not going to support England this summer in the, in the football World Cup because Thomas Tuchel's the manager? No, I'll still be there in my England shirt, although it's got John Stones on the back, so hopefully he gets a game. But, um, look, I, I don't think it matters. No.

Have you ended up with the John Stones England?

Great footballer. Well, chap, is that— I'm 6 foot 8. Yeah, I played center-back. I like receiving the ball to my feet and passing it sideways. You know, I could spot a long ball over the top. He's, um, he's my man.

Uh, good. Uh, Darren, uh, Darren offside, um, Matt, they're saying they're trying to bring England cricket and county cricket closer together. I don't think they are. We've got a Kiwi coach, we've now got an Australian selector. I don't think that that's brought the game closer to the county game at all. I do think there's a big, big repair job there. Is that fair or unfair?

Well, I, I kind of agree with— I agree with Finney in, in regards to the fact that, okay, Marcus North is Australian, fine, get that. And that's, that's, that's quite frustrating. But it's frustrating because it would be brilliant to look at English past players, players, whatever it may be, to— for, for that role. Absolutely. And that would be, that would be the perfect situation. But ultimately, you need the best man for the job. And Marcus North has been involved in county cricket for a long time now. He knows county cricket very, very well. He knows everyone involved in county cricket very, very well. He's got a great reputation, I believe, in, in, in county cricket. He's trusted. Um, and therefore I, I don't— I, I take the point, and I take what I heard, you know, what Goffey had to say, and I, and, and Michael Vaughan as well, about, you know, pumping up our own and actually getting our own, giving our own the, the, the coaching job and the selectors role and everything else. I, I get it entirely, but first and foremost, you need the best man for the job. And when England go and win every test this summer, we won't be complaining. It's about— but that's what it is, performance industry, isn't it?

I mean, you balance out the fact that he is Australian, Stephan, with the fact that he's played for a third of the first-class counties. I mean, he's been around cricket in this country for over 20 years.

Yep, not only 6 first-class counties, he's— his wife is English. Um, before he worked at Durham, he worked at South Northumberland Cricket Club, and so he's involved in the grassroots of the game in this country. Then he went to Durham, he's been there, um, for 8 years. And so Matt's right, his knowledge of the game in this country, um, will be second to none. I think it's more just a case of the disappointment that no one, no one homegrown has been deemed to have the skills to do the job. And I suppose if you flip it on its head, can you imagine Australia giving this job to an Englishman and having allowed an Englishman to develop in their system in that way to get to the point where they would give that person the skills that they would become the most qualified person to become the Australian national selector? And I don't think they would.

Yeah, fair. Um, but I, I think, I think he's the right person for the job from, from what I understand of him. I, I think it's also, um, important— not important, I think it's a, it's a good quality to have not found— like, he was obviously a magnificent player, Test match hundred, Test match fifer, um, and played for Australia, but I, you don't get the impression He wasn't a superstar player. And I think sometimes those guys who found it harder at times in their career have a better understanding of the nuances of getting to the top level and wanting and trying to stay there and have a better understanding of that sometimes. That doesn't mean to say your champion players can't hold these roles or shouldn't ever hold these roles. But with Marcus North, when you hear him speak and you hear about how he conducts himself, you feel as though he'll handle those conversations and keeping players in the loop and things like that well, which is again, the communication element of this job for me is something that's really important as well because you want people to have morale. You want people playing domestic cricket to believe that they can play for England because that motivates everyone to lift the standard in domestic cricket. You want the guys who get left out, and there's a couple of guys who've been left out for this series, aren't there, in Pope and Crawley. You want them to believe that they can make it back so that they still want to try their hardest to get there. and I think that the communication side of this job is something that Marcus North will do really well.

And actually, just on that, that support for someone like Crawley feels actually quite important at the moment because he, he's struggling, Matt. I know he, I know he hit a 75 for Kent in the Blast yesterday, but County Championship, he struggled. A difficult winter and not in the England squad. It's hard, I would imagine, when, when you are left out and back playing county cricket?

I mean, it's really tough. It's really tough. Unfortunately, Binny and I have both been there. We've experienced it. And the way I try and sum it up is, you know, as a kid growing up, if your greatest dream is to play cricket for England, then your worst nightmare is to be dropped by England. Because it's not— it's almost worse than having got there in the— you know, not got there in the first place. You know, you've been there, you've done it, you've had the opportunity, and then you've been sort of, yeah, thank you, We've seen enough. Off you go again. So you go to some pretty dark places and have to do quite a lot of soul searching to come back again. So Zach will have had a really tough start to this summer. And you come back and it's typical with a couple of bad decisions, an inside edge not picked up, given out LBW, suddenly a great ball that nips back and clips the top of off, and you're thinking, oh, give me a chance. When the game's on top of you, sometimes Sometimes it just doesn't let you go. And actually, the best thing that can happen is that you get dropped because it takes you out of the limelight for a period of time and it allows you to just go back to basics, go work on the things that you need to do away from everyone watching you and come back stronger. Because the one thing there is no doubt is Zach Crawley is a very, very talented player. He's a very talented cricketer. He just has to go and work on a few very obvious technical issues with his batting. And I don't think the door's shut for him in any way, shape or form. It would just be— this will be the greatest challenge of his career. And if he can come through this, he'll end up coming back and playing a number more Test matches. I don't doubt it. And he'll have a far more successful time of it as well. I also don't doubt that. But, and it's a big but, can he, you know, dust himself down and go again? And what's his motivation for that, particularly with franchise stuff all around us and the ability to go and earn, you know, quite a lot of money sort of having a slog, 4 weeks here in the Caribbean, you know, 4 weeks in the Caribbean and a couple of weeks in South Africa. And you know, it's pretty, pretty tempting when you've absolutely copped it for a few months. But only he will know that. You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Matt Prior, Stephen Finn, Stefan Schemmel with us. The men's international summer then getting underway against New Zealand Thursday at Lord's. The women have a home T20 World Cup to look forward to. That gets underway in just over 2 weeks' time. They continued their preparations with a 7-wicket win against the world champions New Zealand yesterday, bowling them out for just 81 to seal a 2-1 series win. Here's Charlotte Edwards.

You know, it's been a good series. I think we've been put in a few different situations, and, and I think we've learned a lot. And I was just really, really really pleased with how the players sort of bounced back today. I think we spoke about a few things after the game the other day, and I think sometimes it's good that you get those kind of games where we were put under the pump by a very, you know, world-class player, and we reacted and we've come back with plans, and it's worked really well for us today.

A criticism of England previously is when put under pressure, they seem to wilt. Was that a bit of a worry for you during that game, and what did you do between matches pressures to try and just ensure that that doesn't happen should somebody like Sophie Devine get going.

Well, they had a day off yesterday in Brighton, so that's the trick, I think. I think we had a good meeting around the game about what we'd learnt from it. I think we're making improvements the whole time. The girls are responding really well to all the stuff we're throwing at them around the— you know, we've got a 3-spin group today and yeah, I'm just really proud with them because, you know, you have to show a bit of character today to come back when, you know, you have a team 11 for 4 and you lose the game. It was quite hard the other night. It was a sad dressing room, but they picked themselves up and, you know, put in, I think, one of the best performances in my time as coach, certainly from a bowling point of view.

A word on what you think is your best 11. Do you know that in your mind?

I absolutely don't at the moment. I think what players are doing is putting their hand up all the time. There's certainly different combinations that we want to look at. We obviously now going into the India series, so we'll have a couple of days off and we'll reassess. But yeah, I'm not 100% sure, probably more sure of the bowling. But you know, I guess the batters are, you know, giving us a few headaches, which you want, you know, you want people wanting to put their hands up. So yeah, we'll wait and see. And yeah, like I say, get back together in Chelmsford and take on, you know, the world champions in 50-over cricket.

Is this the strongest England squad there's been heading into into a World Cup?

I think there's been some pretty strong ones going in. I think we're a great squad. We've got good depth. I think what we have got now is options. And I think, I think every 15 of our players can play in the 11. And I think that's the situation I wanted to be in coming into this role. So I'm really pleased and they keep pushing each other to be better and that's all you can ask.

And just finally, looking ahead to that India series, Danny White-Hodge comes back and into contention. Still no Nat Sciver-Brunt though.

Does that make things challenging going into a World Cup?

No, I think if there's any person in world cricket you don't mind having, probably the lack of cricket she's had, it's Nat. We keep forgetting today we played without 3 of them and Lauren Bella, you know, we gave her a rest today. So that's been the most pleasing thing is that we've got this depth in our squad now and we've just beaten the World champion. So, um, yeah, really, really chuffed.

England coach Charlotte Edwards with Henry Moran. So Matt and Stephen and Stefan still with us. Danny Hazel, Durham coach, part of the England squad who won the 50-over World Cup in 2017, uh, with us as well. Did you feel extra pressure on a home tournament back then, Danny? And will that be the case for these press— these players here?

Yeah, I think there is naturally a bit more pressure as a— for a home World Cup. I think the, you know, the game's got a lot bigger now in terms of, you know, social media and the interest from around is a lot more now. But as Charlotte says, I think, you know, they've put themselves in a really good position. I think the challenge of India coming in the next kind of few days is going to put a real indicator of probably where they are heading into that World Cup. The New Zealand series, they've had the chance to kind of look at a few more players. So I think that's been really good for them to to be able to have that. But I think these next few games against India are going to be a bit more of an indicator of where England are heading into the World Cup.

So you don't judge a huge amount then from what they've done in this New Zealand series?

Uh, I think, you know, it's the first few games of the English summer internationally. I think what's been really good this year is we've seen a lot more England players playing domestically. Um, obviously, you know, with my background being involved with Durham, it's been really good to to see these players be involved. But I think, you know, New Zealand, I think Sophie Devine has been a massive standout for them. I mean, the few players that probably haven't quite hit the ground running for them, um, but I think India is going to be that bit more of that test heading into the World Cup.

When I'll bring Matt in here, and I'll be assuming Steph as well, but when, when Charlotte Edwards says she doesn't know what her strongest team is yet, I would take that as a positive. Would you, as a, as a former player, Matt?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, from a coach's perspective, it's exactly what you want. You want to have, you know, a broad selection. You want people knocking on the door, kicking the door down, saying, I need to be, you know, pick me, I should be in that starting 11. Absolutely. I think that then flips as you get closer to the tournament where you do want actually some, you know, real clarity on what your starting 11 wants to be purely because you want each individual to know what their role is and what their expectation is for that role going into a tournament. And if you can have that clarity, you get some wins under your belt, then that stands you in good stead. But at this stage right now, you know, having a number of people knocking on the door is only a good thing for England.

Uh, when, when you have as well, uh, Danny, if you've got 12 of this squad who were knocked out in the group stages in 2024. When you look at those numbers, they need to— those 12 need to channel the disappointment of what happened back then. But it also indicates that Charlotte has managed to refresh it a bit.

Yeah, I mean, there's two ways of looking at it, isn't it? You can either dwell on what's happened or you can use it as fuel. You know, knowing that environment, a few of them players, I'm sure they will use that as fuel. If you can't get yourself up for a home World Cup, what can you get yourself up for? So I think it's going to be a challenge, but equally I think there is quite a lot of pressure in terms of the rugby, the football as well, winning home events. So that's obviously going to be a factor. But I think if ever a team is pushed on from what's happened previously, it's going to be them. And I'm sure as they get closer and closer, Charlotte would know exactly the 11 that she wants to play. I think Nat Siver is is a big factor in that in terms of the injury that she's potentially carrying and how long that's going to go on for. So, but like Charlotte says, she's somebody who, you know, has a lot of international experience behind her. So I think that the excitement of a home World Cup will put them in a really good stead.

Do you think the success of the other England national women's teams does add to the pressure?

Uh, potentially. I think, you know, it's, it's, it's bit— it was built up a lot. I really enjoyed watching the, the women's in the Euros and obviously the World Cup, the rugby that we've just had. So I think it does play a small factor, but I think you've also got to be, you know, really focused on what you're doing. It can't bring you down. It's only got to kind of motivate you to, to want to be the best that, that you can be and put in the best performances And sometimes being your best might not always end up winning the tournament, but I think it's making sure that you put yourself in the best position to be able to do that.

Tell you what, Stefan, they've lucked out with the groups, haven't they?

Oh, they really— I was looking at this earlier on, actually. I'm trying to work out how they managed to end up in the group that they're in, and I couldn't work it out, to be honest. But England, they're in Group B. Um, and they've managed to avoid therefore Australia, India, and South Africa. In England's group are Ireland, New Zealand, who are the defending champions, but England have just beaten them in a, in a 3-match series, Scotland, Sri Lanka, and the West Indies. At the last World Cup, England didn't make it out of the group. It would be a calamity if they don't make the last 4 from that group.

I mean, that, that, that other group with Australia and India and South Africa in is in— is incredibly competitive, Danny.

Yeah, that's— it's a brutal group, isn't it? I think, um, yeah, I think naturally if you're maybe looking on paper, probably the winners look like they're from that group. I think, you know, Australia have historically been very strong. India especially, just winning the 50th World Cup as well. South Africa kept going from strength to strength. So yeah, on paper it would look like England have got themselves you know, a more comfortable group. But there's no hiding away from that. So I think, you know, does that pile a little bit more pressure on? Like, are you— should you be getting to semifinals?

Are you—

you know, it's the element of that as well. But I think, you know, New Zealand in there, defending champions, and the West Indies on that day can beat anybody.

Stephen, with Nat Sciver-Brunt, who hasn't played a part this summer, she has this calf injury, a calf tear, so she isn't going to be involved in the India series. You heard Charlotte there say, if there's one cricketer in the world you're not going to mind not playing too much cricket coming into it, then it would be Siver-Brunt. And yet at the same time, they're going to desperately need her fit, aren't they? I mean, that she could make the difference— well, more than likely will make the difference between winning or not.

Yeah, and also I think more than her cricket skills, I think her cricket skills will be fine regardless. I think she's played enough and is experienced and is the best player in the world, I think. So I I don't think that's going to be a problem. But as the captain of the team going into a tournament, and as a player playing underneath that captain, to have them out there making the decisions— because Charlie Dean's gut instinct, who's been doing the captaincy instead of her, will be different to Nat Sciver-Brunt. So when they get out there into the middle in a World Cup, the players might be a bit discombobulated by a change of opinion, and that can affect you a little bit. Yeah, you don't want to risk her, you don't want to put that calf under any undue stress, but it would be great, I think, for the team and the tactics and morale to see her play before the tournament. But if she can't, then so be it.

But the captaincy and the leadership points is valid, Danny, particularly when we saw in previous incarnations when Heather Knight wasn't on the field, how it crumbled.

Yeah, and I think, you know, Nat Spill, bit more of a bank of experience since, since the early days of captaincy. But you're right, it's— it's— you get used to somebody and how they lead, um, and then, you know, how somebody else comes on in their decisions. You can kind of be in the field and preempting kind of what direction you think the game is going in, and having, you know, two different people following them in various different games is quite challenging. But like you say, I think she's got very such a bank of experience now in terms of our captaincy. It's only going to kind of— and she's been around for a long time. I think the girls are equally understanding of how she thinks, how she operates. Um, and once you kind of get into them sorts of roles as a player, you, you're able to kind of predict sort of where the game is going and how you want to carry yourself.

Do you know how the, the build-up to this is going, Stefan, in what is an incredibly competitive sporting summer in terms of for England or— yeah, no, no, in terms of the tournament. Yeah, in terms of the tournament.

Well, they've sold more tickets for, for any— for this World Cup than any other previous T20 World Cup. They've set themselves the ambitious target of playing all the games at the big Test match venues, so it's going to be interesting to see, um, how those grounds are filled. So I think we're going to be in a slight odd situation whereby we are going to be told that there is record ticket sales, but at the same time you're going to see that some grounds can look empty from time to time. And sometimes there are going to be double headers whereby you might have an 11 o'clock start, say, at Old Trafford between two teams that wouldn't necessarily bring a big crowd in, and then it's followed later on by an Australia versus India where it's packed to the rafters. So I think it's going to be interesting from that point of view, and I think maybe in the early part of the tournament there is going to be a conversation around Why are there empty seats? Why have some of these games maybe not played at— been played at smaller grounds where the same crowd would have, would have made it seem full and made a better atmosphere? So that's going to be something that, that's going to be, uh, we'll need to keep an eye on. 150,000 tickets, I think, was the last number that I heard, which outstripped the T20 World Cup in Australia in 2020. And you remember that was the, the tournament where the final was played at the MCG, where they nearly sold out the MCG.

Because the, the assumption, Danny, isn't it, that is that after the 2017 World Cup it wasn't built on enough? As someone still involved in the game, do you go along with that assumption?

Uh, I think it took a little bit of time to, to move forward. Um, I think the domestic game itself has, you know, it went to a regional system and now it's gone into a county system. I think I think it maybe didn't quite catch the wave at first, but I think now that you've got the stability more of the county system, if England are to go on to win the World Cup, I think it will catch that wave again. It's only going to kick the game forward should they be able to do that.

How do they capitalize on it after this? World Cup?

That's a very good question. I think that it's probably more of a marketing area. I think it's, I think it's, you know, it's, it's the ability for, for young girls to be able to see the game, isn't it? Can we get more young girls involved in the game? Young girls and boys. I think it's, you know, we shouldn't just look at as, as women's cricket. Can we keep pushing the game of cricket forward, you know, as a whole? Um, but I think, you know, as a Women's World Cup, it's kind of catch the wave of young girls wanting to be involved in the game and seeing girls on TV playing cricket and that being normal. And then you kind of get the filter down towards the county game and into the lower age group systems.

I think, Mark, when— and it's Heather Knight and Nat Silverbrunt I've seen talk about this in terms of whether or not 2017 was capitalised on or not. The point that they've made is maybe just the systems weren't in place for the game to grow at that time. And in terms of, um, the Lionesses and the Red Roses and the success that they've had, um, I'd hope that England aren't thinking like that, that the players— because I think if you put yourselves under pressure in that state, you think, oh, the football team have won a World— uh, Euros, and the women— the rugby team have won a World Cup, therefore we've got to have this moment now. I don't think that would be particularly be a healthy place to be. The interesting thing from this team is the journey that they've been on. So we've just talked about the changes that maybe the men have had to implement after a poor Ashes. Think of the place the women were in after their Ashes series 18 months ago when there was accusations of, you know, not being as professional as they could be, fitness, dropping catches, all those sorts of things. Charlotte Edwards comes in, she's, she's a real stickler for those sorts of things. So you'd want England just to be at the best they can be to win this tournament I think would be a stretch, but you just want them to give the best account of themselves to show that they have wrung everything out of their ability. And then in kicking on, well, we've got The Hundred, haven't we? And all the investment that's coming in there. And so much was talked about The Hundred in terms of the men's game. Well, actually, I think the real interesting part of the money that's coming into, to The Hundred and the English domestic game is what could it do for women's cricket.

We will end it there. Danny, thank you very much for coming on. Uh, Stefan as well. Matt as well. Thank you.

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