Mark Wood on injury, Ashes, and Stephen Fleming

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio Five Live. So I've got Steve Flynn. I've got Mark Wood alongside me as well. Hello, Woody. It's lovely to see you. I guess I've seen plenty of you over the last few weeks on the yes on the telly and heard plenty of you on the radio. I'd rather be seeing you out in the middle.

Dulce tones on the radio.

Well, I don't well. Yes, indeed. I love that. You've got a very soothing, soothing accent as well.

You've just gotten the soothing voice there, haven't you? Just— you've been introduced as the soothing voice.

Yes, your accent's a lovely accent though.

Thank you.

I mean, once you start to understand it, it's a bit of breaking through, doesn't it, Finney?

It does a little bit, but I, I played with Woody for about a good few years. Yeah, so, uh, so I've, I've, um, deciphered it. I understand everything.

Let's just start with that because I've got such lovely memories, would have you charging down the hill here and bowling at ridiculous speeds.

Yeah.

Um, are we gonna see how you're getting on? When's your last bowl?

Uh, my last bowl was in Australia, so November time. Yeah, a long time ago. Uh, been a very frustrating 18 months.

Um, off the back of that, when to actually— you know, you're, you're a cricketer, you're a bully.

It's, it's hard, but what else can I do? Um, you know, all the jokes of, oh, he's a jet again, all that kind of stuff, like You just have to wear it, don't you? So you just wear it and just say, look, that's the way it is, there's nothing to do, and try again, try again. And, um, you only get one career, and you know, you're a long time retired and things like that. So I'll keep trying until my body says no. But, um, you know, it's been a tough one, this one.

Yeah, I mean, you get up in the morning, you've got a couple of kids, haven't you? I mean, you sort them out, but is it quite— you can't—

I miss it. I mean, I definitely miss it.

Um, you can't do anything, you can't do any running or anything?

Not at the minute. I'm close to running now after this, having this second operation. I'm close to running now, so I'll have a, you know, get up to speed with my running and then, um, see if I can bowl after that from there, really. And that's the next step— run first, then see if I can bowl, and then make a decision on my career from there.

Yeah, filling a day must be quite— I mean, homes under the hammer and that sort of stuff.

I mean, well, the kids keep— I mean, it's been nice being in the holidays, the 6-week holidays, because obviously I've done a bit of commentary and the kids keep you busy. But when they go back to school, it's, uh, yeah, it could be pretty tough when you're just trying to fill time. I mean, I'm desperate to To play cricket, and I generally love it. I would play for Ashington if I could.

You would?

Yeah, my club side. And you know, I love the game, so I would love to play. It's just again whether my body allows me to do that.

Yeah, play as a batsman for club cricket, could you?

I mean, no, I don't think my batting's that good.

Oh, that hook shot was coming on nicely. Yeah, no, not often it's prime.

I'm not sure I'm making the top 7 in my club side, that's the problem. So, um, yeah, I, I would love to play some sort of cricket, especially my boy here. He's getting into it a little bit. He does his All-Star Cricket, and I coach at the cricket club there, so That's given me something to look forward to on a Friday night. So All-Star Cricket with him, and one day I'd love to play a game with him.

Yeah, nice. Oh, well, that's a nice dream. Yeah, good. Finny, you've had these breaks out too, haven't you? I mean, yeah, it's not, it's not easy, and you kind of, you sort of disappear off the radar as well, don't you? Oh, Stephen Finn, you know, I remember him. You know, you haven't— he hasn't been seen for months.

Yeah, well, and I think that's the thing. The hardest thing that I found was the realization that the show goes on without you because you feel such an integral part of whilst you're in the dressing room and whilst you're there playing and performing, you're on tour. But then watching from afar is actually horrible because you're sat on the sofa watching your mates and they're all laughing and joking on the TV and you're thinking, hold on, how can they be happy without me there? It doesn't quite feel fair. So you've got that, like, there's that side of it. But then for a fast bowler, and the thing that Woody has always managed to do through his injuries is come back and bowl the same pace and, and come back and have that same zip and bite. But I had a big knee injury in 2017 and never regained that zip or bite again. And then you're constantly chasing a version of yourself that you can't obtain anymore. And you remember what it was like to, to run down the hill at Headingley and bowl 90 miles an hour. You remember what it was like to— if someone drove you through the covers, to be able to keep them on their toes by bowling a good short ball. But then when I came back to play, especially the last time that I tried, you bowl a ball, someone drives it through the covers, you then bowl your bouncer as the follow-up because your mentality is still of that 90-mile-an-hour bowler that you remember that you were, and that gets pulled 30 yards in front of square. And you're there thinking, this isn't the same game that I remember playing 5 or 6 years ago. It just doesn't feel the same. And that, that was the realization that came to me. I I could have retired much earlier than I did. I knew I was never going to get back to the same enjoyment of playing the game as when I could bowl the pace that I used to, but I clung on. And then, yeah, there was a couple of light bulb moments in that last year or so where I was just like, I enjoy sitting up here and talking to you and all the great people we work with far more than fighting this version of myself that I wish I could obtain again, which I couldn't.

I wouldn't go back to bowling. 80 mile an hour. If I'm, if I'm in, I'm all in. Otherwise, I just, I don't see the point in me.

Even if you play the game with your boy in a few years' time?

Yeah, but maybe club cricket like that. But like professionally, I don't think I could go back and just bowl 80 mile an hour and just, it just wouldn't feel like me or it wouldn't be me. And I don't think I would enjoy to, to, to be that version of myself, like Finny says. So I'd have to be all in or different skills too, though, isn't it?

I mean, look at Mohammad Abbas or look at Ollie Robinson the way—

yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's not that I don't respect it. I mean, the These guys, my point is, if I bowl 80 miles an hour, there's 100 bowlers better than me doing that. So it just doesn't feel like I give the best version of myself, really.

So, um, it's all or nothing.

Yeah.

And especially maybe if I was 24 and this had happened, and I'd say, right, I can fashion myself a career by being that 80-mile-an-hour bowler. But now being 36, I'm like, well, do I want to come back for a year just to, just to do that? A year or two to do that? I'm not really sure it benefits me. As well as anybody else.

I think that the thing is like that, and what happened to me was I was still trying as hard as I— I still felt as though I was running up as if I was going to bowl 90 miles an hour. I was, I was running up trying as hard. When it left my fingertips, I was grunting as if I was bowling 90 miles an hour, but it's coming out 81, 82, and it was just a completely different game. I couldn't brace my knee any— I could never brace my knee again after my first knee surgery. I couldn't then whip over the top of that knee. So I was bowling through the crease as opposed to slamming down and, and bowling into the pitch. So, but I just lost any of that kinetic whip over the top of my front leg.

Yeah.

And however many drills I tried, however many mental challenges that I would set myself to try and force myself to brace my front knee, I could never do it to the same extent again. And that's why I had that 10-mile-an-hour differentiation in pace between me at my best and then me at my worst.

But it is quite ruthless, Woody, isn't it? I mean, I remember Stuart Broad, uh, he did an intercostal in an Adelaide Test match, uh, one Ashes 2010. Nasty, wasn't it? I mean, it was. And, and his— actually, his, his mum was flying out, um, for the next Test match, which was Perth, but almost immediately he was injured.

Bang.

So like a guillotine, you're not with us anymore. And in fact, he came and worked with us on the radio during that match. And I remember him seeing his mum who just arrived. It was all very heartbreaking, really. She'd flown out to see him play and he was absolutely hopeless. But it was just like, boom, that's it, out you go. Thank you, not with us anymore. A replacement was flown in, can't remember who it was now. And, you know, life in the England camp goes on. And has that been like for you?

Have you had much of England connection or is it all now Durham once you're done with England have looked after us from a medical point of view, the physios and the doctors and things, because obviously I'm still contracted to England. I think come September that might be a different story if I lose my contract, which is probably most likely. But, you know, I've been very lucky to play and for as many games as I have, and didn't think I'd play as many as what I would get to, so, and achieve some great things. I think I look back at it more as I've been very lucky, really. I'm mean, the stigma of injuries is always going to follow me around. I wish it didn't because, you know, I put in all the hard work, and—

Yeah.

But it just seems to be that I'm always going to be associated with, with having injuries. I wish my career had been slightly different in that sense and felt that probably the last 5 years is the best I've bowled for England, and I felt threatening every time I'd played. So it's just a shame that it's come around at this time, and the longer it goes on, it sort of It diminishes you in a way that you just— that fight in you that you want to keep coming back, it just whittles away slightly every time because it's been 18 months now. So Champions Trophy is when I first hurt my knee, had the surgery, built myself back up for the Ashes, played one game, and now I've been out for ages again. So it just whittles you down. I think that guillotine that you're talking about is like you just feel like you're distant from the team, and at times can feel a little bit embarrassing, you know. You feel like— My job is to be a cricketer, and I haven't been a cricketer now for 6, 7, 8 months.

And, um, would you pop downstairs now to the dressing room and go say hello?

Uh, I would, yeah, I would, I would, I would do that. But, um, like Finny says, the team does move on, and whether I would want to do that when it's their sacred space, I'm not sure. I would say I would pop down if they invited me, but I wouldn't, uh, wouldn't just turn up, even knock on the door and walk in. No, no, I don't, I don't think you should do that. Would you do that?

No, no, I— and you're right, you kind of want to be respectful of the guys who are in there. It's such a massive character.

Um, at least to see you, Woody, I'm sure they won't, you know, close the door in your face.

Not today, thanks. Um, but you're right, you're just respectful. I think you understand when you're in that dressing room how sacred those 4 walls are. And even though you feel like you're just on the outside of it, you kind of feel like you're intruding a little bit, even if you're not. There's absolutely no way Woody would be intruding if you went down there. But it's your perception as a player. And yeah, that's something that's really, really challenging when you're fighting injuries, when you're in and out of a team because of it. Um, you kind of— you're desperate to feel part of it, but you just don't quite feel like a true part of it. Um, because you feel— and the embarrassment is a real thing. Like, you, you kind of feel ashamed that you're letting everyone down, even though it's not your fault. You do everything you can to be fit.

Yeah.

fit. You do— when you play, you try your absolute hardest. It's not— injuries are injuries. They happen for fast bowlers. And yeah, the embarrassment of it, I think, is something as well that you kind of go in there and you feel like you've let yourself down, you've let your teammates down.

It's just—

that's how you feel within your own brain. There's no way anyone else feels that. But yeah, it eats you up inside.

And sometimes make dynamic changes though as well, I guess. So like, I remember Durham. Alan Walker used to sit me. I remember we had Dale Bankenstein as captain at Durham, and I was just a young lad coming through. And then Banks was sort of like—I don't know if he's moved on or if he retired—but then it was like I remember sitting at Wack. Alan Walker was like, "How we're going to move on from banking?" He was like, "Every team moves on." So you would never think James Anderson, Stuart Broad—you would just move on. You know the lads I played with: Wokes, Finn, Anderson, Broad—all these guys—they're all gone now. So like the team. Evolves and the next cycle comes through. Yes. And ultimately, we're talking about going in the dressing room. Yes, I know a lot of these lads, but this is a new, newer team to me. My team, the only ones that are really left is Root, you know, Stokes was there, like the previous team. Yeah, most of them are gone now. Moeen Ali's gone, like all these guys that I would have played with. And even I look at the One Day team, the 2019 team is like Jos Buttler, Maybe Archer, Rashid. That's that's pretty much it. Like everybody moves on. The team recycles. The dynamic changes. These lads form bonds and go on tour with each other, and that's the way it is. You want to hang on as long as you can because I love playing sport. I love playing for England. There's nothing like playing for England. But like you can't be so naive to think like oh that you deserve to be. The team moves on, and that's the way that sport happens, and that's the way that sport should be. Yeah.

Wait, I can't remember when did you actually leave the Australia? Did you leave straight after Perth?

I left after Noosa. I got out of there. You're on your own, lads.

Yeah, but actually, I mean, to be fair, you're a teetotaler. You weren't one of those with trays of beer.

I think that's why they sent me home after Noosa. Like, you haven't done a good enough job. You get yourself out of there.

I'm surprised they didn't have all the photographers lined up. Well, there's Mark Wood. He's on Coke Zero.

Yeah, I didn't, uh, I didn't fit the form there, did I? I mean, when, when there was that thing with Ducky, wasn't there, when he— video, and they were like, um, why is none of the lads looking after him? I was in bed 3 hours ago before that. I was well tucked up in bed.

So now you can look back at that. I mean, and I mean, you know, the part of the tour that you're involved in, how, how do you look back at that? Because there's no doubt there's a big disappointment everywhere about it. Would you have done— would Would you like things to have been done differently?

Yeah, I look back on it shamefully, I'd say. Like, you feel— I feel shame. Like, we should have won that first game. I think the whole tour is different if we win in Perth. Um, you know, Australia were there for the taking. We had a 100 lead, then we didn't get enough runs, but we still felt because of the 2 scores in the first innings of each team were quite low Aussies bowled out for 150, we got 180 or something like that. And then when we're bowled out, it's disappointing because you haven't had your feet up very long. You're thinking like, we're back out there again. But I also felt confident because we bowled them out first innings.

Yeah.

So I'm thinking, well, if the pitch has got— if we bowl like we did first innings and the pitch has got a little bit in it, then we can bowl them out again. But then the game just seemed to be fast-forwarded, which is why I sort of feel shame. It's like the game was finished. I looked up, I remember at one point Yeah, it's a massive bowl stadium.

Mm-hm.

And Gus Atkinson was bowling. And we were just bowling bouncers at head and he was smacking them. And then I remember looking up at the score and going, this game's finished. Like, it's just been in fast forward. And then I stopped the play. I remember going over to Gus and going, look, what are we actually doing here? Because if we don't— this is literally like the last resort. If you don't change it now, we're finished. The game is literally gone. They need like 60 to win or something like that. And I was like, look, if we don't get a wicket here, it's over. And then we had a little chat, a little think, and it just— he was just so good that day. But we were a bit off, they were a bit on, and then the momentum was just with them. But if we— I just look back on it and think, what a, what a shame. I mean, total missed opportunity.

And the whole tour felt a bit like that. I felt, I felt sorry for, for those who— for whom that would only be a one-off.

And, and I look back from a personal point of view that I just was nowhere near ready. I just wasn't.

What more could you have done? Nothing.

Played some games before, maybe. But I tried to do that. I tried to do— I tried to play for Durham. I tried to play the One Day Series in Ireland, which was a T20 series, but it would have been at least some cricket. Um, but obviously because they were frightened of my injury, that I was told not to then to bowl in that the practice game in Perth. And then come to Perth, my knee probably still wasn't right, and then my hamstring. Yes. And I'd never had a hamstring problem my whole career, never ever. And I think it was the hamstring was overcompensating for my knee, was protecting my knee, and that's why it got tight or sore, whatever happened there. And I just, I remember bowling in the nets at Perth, and I was almost convincing myself being like, I'm ready to go, I'm ready to go. And then in the back of my mind thinking, I'm nowhere near ready here, I'm nowhere near.

But when you know your body so well as a bowler, you know when something doesn't quite feel right, you'd imagine You're— what were you, 35 at the time? There'd be some degree of listening to the 35-year-old bowler who understands his body to say, what do you need to do to feel ready to play in a Test match? It's surprising that that wasn't the case.

They took me to New Zealand. Me, Tungi, Geoff went to New Zealand early because there was a one-day tour there. We did some bowling in the nets and out in the middle and stuff, but it's not the same. And secondly, whenever I bowled at, say, 80 or 90% My knee was okay, but then when I had to get my top top end, every time I bowled throughout that seven months from the operation to when I bowled at 100%, my knee blew up every time swollen, and then I had to either have an injection or I had to let it settle. And that happened three or four times only when I was at the very very top end. And then I went to Loughborough and we did a training camp there, and I bowled 100% there, and my knee was all right. And then they're like, "Right, we'll take you to New Zealand." But I wanted instead of going to New Zealand to. play the back end of September for Durham or the T20s in Ireland for England.

Play some games.

Yeah, but that was decided that that wasn't the best path. We're going to take New Zealand where the team is, get you amongst the team. You've been out a while, all that kind of stuff. And, um, look, the blame shouldn't be on anybody. The blame is on— the way that I feel about it personally is that I just didn't give a good account myself there. I bowled okay. But it just was. I've watched it back, and coincidentally, I remember Wokesy texted me at the end of day 1. He was like, what's wrong? I was like, what do you mean? He's like, you didn't look right. And it's weird that people can see that in me.

Yeah.

And he was like, you just didn't look like yourself. And I think people can see it's either my body language or my action or something. But I remember him texting me on the nighttime and being like, what's wrong? I was like, mate, my knee's still— it's still giving this jib. Like, I'm— it's literally like someone's ramming a hot dagger in the side of my leg every time I'm landing. And he's like, and that's an awful place to be in the middle of a game.

Mm-hm.

Because you're like, you've got nowhere to go. You're thinking about landing every time. You're not really in the battle. You're in the battle, but you're not really in the battle. And I'm trying to push the speed gun. I'm trying not to embarrass myself in front of 60,000, 80,000 people, then millions watching on TV. So it's a horrible place to be in. I've been in that position a few times where you're bowling injured. And I would never stop bowling. I kept showing up. I kept trying to bowl for the count. Happen if he needed it, but it wasn't, it wasn't the version of myself that was going to help the team win.

Yeah, there does seem to be an agreement now that there's going to be a warm-up game of a high caliber, proper caliber, before every Test series. I mean, presumably you'd think that's a good thing because you can bowl as much as you like in the nets, can't you? But so don't you need a game? A game?

Depends, like, it depends. I didn't— before that spell here at Headingley, I hadn't played a game. And I'd come off the back of a one-day tour, then I had an elbow injection, then I played the game here. So I hadn't played any cricket, but I was fresh. The difference between that and my knee is that mentally I knew I was ready to go, whereas my knee, I'd had all that backlog of months thinking I'm not ready to play here. Like, I'm just— I don't know how it's going to go. And I was almost convincing myself that the team were— the coaches and the medics were like, You look good. Like, that was almost convincing me, right? Actually, this is just the way it is. This is my knee now. I'm gonna— this is how I'm gonna be. And, um, yeah, so I feel a bit of embarrassment, a bit of shame, and just— um, can't use that on the radio.

No, you can't.

A bit of, uh, real frustration that that wasn't me.

Yeah. And when you left after Noosa and you went home, what was sort of the mood? What was the spirit like within the camp? I mean, was it kind of unraveling at that stage? I mean, the Ashes were still alive. Was it unraveling? It was 2-nil down.

No, not really. I think you were just searching. We're under big— I felt it was big, under big pressure. Like, people could say what they wanted about when Australia come here, the, you know, they go under the radar. But that— it's totally— if they get Followed like we got followed in Australia, I'll— I don't— I will be amazed because every corner we went on, every corner, there was a guy hiding in the bushes with a camera. Me and Stokes walked down the beach promenade front, just went for a walk, and this guy has fallen out the bush with his camera. And then we've got reporters running after us asking us questions. Like literally every— they were waiting to trip up. And people might say, well, then why give them an excuse? I kind of agree with that, and I think that's okay, fair enough. But also the scrutiny and pressure that the team was under, I felt even in the dressing room, it just felt like we were from a team that the environment was usually very relaxed, as in Baz's team, quite relaxed. That's, you know, this is the way we play, this is what method. There was some just— there was more heated discussions than I'd remembered in the team and more lads trying to get together and looking for answers. You know, when like things aren't going right and you're looking for answers instead of naturally them just playing out. And yes, you're almost like, not crisis, but like everybody's like, well, how are we going to fix this? Or the Aussies are doing this, how are we going to combat that? And it was just more of that than, than probably I was used to in, in that coaching era.

I think there's a similarity to in 2013-14 when we went down there and the team was a team that had some great players but coming towards the back end. And you just, you just want to feel like there's some degree of control. And I'd imagine if you're in a leadership position, you're there thinking, I just want some sort of control. And on that tour, Andy Flower went for like extra levels of control. You're not going out, you're not doing this.

It all fell apart.

And everything fell apart so spectacularly. And I think It's that pressure of always feeling like there's no escape ever, unless you lock yourself in your room and there's no danger in there. But you'll go mad. You can't do that for 3 months. So you want to go out, but it's so different there. You walk out the front door of your hotel, cameras.

Yeah.

And even—

But it has always been like that.

Yes, I agree.

But also, it shouldn't be an ex— like, this shouldn't be an excuse. Like, we didn't play well. let's get down to the main problem is we didn't play well. And, and a lot of the times we were doing interviews and things like that, I think we were saying outlandish things that probably didn't help the cause. But, you know, just, just where did things— when you asked us how it felt, it just felt like it was more like a huge pressure cooker, that more, more so than normal.

And I mean, we were both there at the back of the commentary boxes on lunch on day 2 at Perth.

Yeah.

And what happened in 2010-11 when we won down there was we turned Australia on themselves, and there was infighting, there were changes in the team, the press turned completely on the Australians, and none of the focus was on us. It happened inversely to what's happened on the last tour and on 2013-14, and it was there for the taking. I think that's, that, that's the thing that I found the most frustrating as someone there Desperately wanting England to win was that it was on our fingertips. The infighting had started at lunch on day two. They wanted Kawaja's head for the golf incident. Yep. They wanted the cap. They wanted the captains. They wanted Smith. There was just so many moving parts there that were ready to for Australia to implode, and a crazy hours cricket four hours later it's all done meant that they would they they then doubled down the other way on us, which meant that as soon as that had happened and the next ball was a pink and the next Test was a pink ball test, which I think is always going to be hard for England to win in a pink ball test because we just don't play it. And from that moment, it felt like the tide completely changed the other way and there was no coming back.

It was a great decision to send Head in actually to open, wasn't it?

That was— well, obviously, obviously now I look at it and think, well, that was the best to play like that. Yeah, I mean, even before the series, you know, I'm thinking, how do we get Head out? You think you've got to pitch it on the stumps and nip it across him, or you go bouncers and, and he's, you know, you can get him uncomfortable there. But he, to be fair, when we went bouncer, he played it pretty well. I mean, he even hit a short ball from Jof back over his head straight down the ground.

Smashed everything.

Yeah, so like, it just seemed to be when you bowl at players like that as well, they can create that natural carnage that then you go away from plans or you miss your line and length more because you know that you've got, you've got to be so specific, otherwise he hurts you. And yeah, he played phenomenally well. I think that'll be one of the innings where you look back on Ashes series to come away and say that was a fantastic innings, and that'll be remembered by people, especially in Australia. I think when Finney says it's a missed opportunity, I would agree with that as well, because Cummins and Hazelwood hardly played. Yeah, absolutely. And if you'd given me before the series to say they would play 1 out of 5 games, I'd have been like, oh, Yeah, fantastic.

Smith didn't play all the games.

So I think the feeling is it's just like frustration and, um, yeah, for me being a part of it, a bit embarrassing and a bit, a bit gutting really.

Yeah, I don't want to dwell on the horrid things, Mark, but it was, it was quite fractious at the end of that game and interviews and so on are always a bit tricky.

But I was in an awful position because I didn't bowl well. I was injured, and then you get walloped, and then the next news for me is going to be breaking Mark Wood's injured.

Gone.

So I have to live with that again, of it being headline news of, yeah, I'm like, I'm injured, we've played poorly. They're obviously gonna— the tag straight away is he can't get through a game, or whatever it is that I'm usually hit with. So I have to live that again. So we've been walloped, we're getting followed everywhere, my knee's hanging on by a thread, like It was just, it was a, it was a bad tour for me mentally. Bad tour.

What was it like in the dressing room immediately after that game when you walked off? I was, I was lining up with Ben Stokes, just a bit awkward. Stunned, I reckon.

Yeah, the silence. Shell-shocked, I'd say. Yeah, everybody was just like— so in the Perth, like, because it's got a— it must have a sort of AFL game, the team must play there as well. So it's a multi-sport stadium. Yeah, so the, the The dress rooms are quite big when you're inside there. They're like so up to date. Like you've got like spa room and like ice baths out the back.

Nice.

And then it's not like a traditional cricket dressing room where it's just a small square. It's like a big sort of like square, but it's like in a weird shape. Like you've got bits coming off it. So there's like little nooks around the corner where everybody is. And I was sitting in the bottom corner nook. So Archer was in the corner, then me. then Pope and Root. We were in sort of this bottom corner, and I remember we just sat there in silence for ages. And then I looked at Geoff and went, can you believe that just happened? And he just sort of like, like took a breath out and lifted his eyebrows. I think we were all just like, the game's finished? Like, it was, it was like, it would— didn't, we didn't just have a bad session, the game was done.

Yes.

That was the difference. It wasn't like you walk off in a bad session, you're like, Oh, that was tough. It was like the game's done. Like literally two hours ago, we were sat here thinking, "What quids in here?" Like we're doing pretty well. We're in Australia. A day has gone really well. We've bowled them out. We're ahead of the game with the bat. And then two hours later, I sat on my seat being like, "The game is over." And I think that's just that shell shock feeling of being like, "What's just happened?" And then you've got like Stokes and McCullum trying to like. like, not high-five the lads, but like lift spirits, being like just some sort of comfort, maybe a hand on the shoulder, or, you know, good try, or I don't know, something like that. Stokes then got to go out to media.

Yeah.

And everyone's just like, doesn't know what to do. It was, it was almost like it's 2 days and the game's done. You almost then, when you get back to your room that night— so you stay in a lovely hotel in Perth, and you get back to your room at night and it's like then the realization sinks in. This is the media, the outlets, it's home in England, and you're trying to block all that out as a player. You don't want to—

How hard is that? Like, what do you do to block it?

Well, I just, I just, when my phone comes up, you just scroll straight past it. Like, I just don't want to look, and you scroll past it. I turn my phone off. I only go on the WhatsApp with my friends. I wouldn't then go on the media stuff. But like, media's flying, England's waking up to, you know, fans aren't happy. You know, family members. It's weird because when you do well, you get a million messages. When you don't do well, it's only like a couple from your family are like, are you okay? You're like, I'm alright. But it's just, yeah, hard. Very hard, actually. Very hard. How hard? Very lonely.

Sorry, how hard was it? Because that hotel, there's a load of England fans as well would congregate there. How hard was it after that Test match to then the next day go down and have breakfast or have a coffee?

First interaction I had England found the lift. That didn't go very well, did it? No, actually, no. And then he proceeds to tell us, uh, I remember he went, that didn't go well. No, that didn't go to plan. And he was like, we've spent a lot of money coming out here, we're gonna have to go to, uh, such and such today. They were going, um, off the vineyard probably. No, where was that? Where's that? There's like a Margwell River, Old English town just south of Perth. Oh, Fremantle. Fremantle. We're going to Fremantle for the day, we're going to do this and that. We spent a lot of money to come out here. It's like, I'm sorry. Yeah, you feel it. You feel it from the fans. It's— that's probably why you feel shame and embarrassment and hurt, because you realize that, you know, people spent a lot of money. You realize that they're desperate for you to do well and you're representing them. So yeah, it does hurt.

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Talk to me about golf for a second, because that's something that was always pointed at.

Adam Pearce, this is an easy one for me.

At the last regime, so, and people have written and claimed that the players have become obsessed with playing golf. Now, is that the case?

Obsessed? Obsessed feels strong. I would say that they do like playing golf. I think it's the perception of how it looks to people. Is the worst thing than actually probably what it was for me as a player. For me as a player, we worked hard when we trained. Yes. Um, you know, in the morning, we got an afternoon. Yeah, nets were always— we would do specific things, especially when, um, Hotball was around, he the fielding coach. We would do great hard fielding sessions, then we'd— it'd be sort of relaxed into, right, what do you need? Right, today I need a ball out in the middle, then I want a ball at the batters in the nets. Then some days we would do Batters v bowlers in the nets, like a usual net session. So to me, that was relatively normal under the McCullum and Stokes era. Yes, the sessions were more relaxed than, say, other head coaches that I've had, but not necessarily at the point where I felt like we were just drifting through the motions as an international team. Then you add golf onto that, is that sometimes when the lads were— the way that we were playing the game or the style that we would play Then that allows that notion to come in, especially when you're not winning, of, well, should you not be trying to fix this, or should that not be— should you not be doing something different? But actually, I felt like the, the lads enjoyed golf. Is it a bad thing? They were getting to spend loads of time together. They don't just play golf, they're talking about the game. Like, if, if you're playing golf with me now, we would talk cricket, wouldn't we?

Yes, you would.

You wouldn't just hack it around, you'd say, oh, great shot. How well did Stark bowl there? Like, if next time, you know, he's bowling that wobble seam across the right-hander, do you think maybe if he's not swinging it, should we get across? Or that there would definitely have been conversations going on too, so that the lads are spending time together. You're getting away from the mental pressures of the, of the tour or at home.

And also, like, what's the alternative?

Yeah, I've always kind of argued if you train hard, like, I see, I see both points of how it would look. How the, the problem for me is how it would probably is perceived by the public. That's probably the bit that looks wrong to me. But I didn't play golf. I liked to get away and, like, if we were staying somewhere, I'd want to see where I was staying because you very often just fly into a place, a hotel, fly out, and you don't get to see where you go. So I would often grab Mark Saxby or Walksy if he wasn't playing golf, and we would go to a coffee shop or would find somewhere like, oh, let's— for example, in Dharamshala, we did that big walk up the mountain.

Oh, nice.

So we like to do different things. Um, I didn't think obsessed, but I think the lads certainly did like their golf, yes.

Yeah, interesting. And as a teetotal— and then, you know, I'm not looking to get people in trouble here— but were you comfortable with the sort of off-field socializing that was going on?

It's not my— that's not my— out of everything you've asked us, that's probably not my place to say. Like, everybody can do what they want and And I've never been a drinker my whole life, so it's not as if I've just cut it out to play for England. I've never done it my whole life, so I can have a good time. If the lads want to go out and, you know, have a good time, I'd be there with them having a dance and having a laugh and stuff like that.

But you can dance without having a drink.

Surprisingly well as well, actually. So for me, that's not— that's a management decision. And if they want to let the lads have a drink and have—

But you never felt as a Is it like a team game and you never felt that perhaps one or two might not have been ready to have given their best the next day?

Nah, not really. It was a bigger problem for me when I first started for Durham than, than what I felt for England. When I, when I played for, for Durham, the culture was very much like you have a curry the night before and a few pints, football fast, then we'll go on the next day and play against, you know, Yorkshire. Or that was the culture of the old-school cricket when I first started. And then it's become more professional since.

I think the word perception is the one that stands out the most there. I think as an England player, you're not silly. You have— you should have an awareness of the perception of what you're doing has on people that are watching you or spending money to, to go to Australia. So there are a few times where, I mean, you look at Noosa and, and sat brazenly like out under a canopy on the street having a beer, almost to say— not almost to say like, we don't care what you think of us, we're just gonna do like live our lives. How hard is it to take those beers and go into a back room where it's not possible for you to be photographed from the street doing that? It's the perception of those things, the perception of—

I wouldn't have done that. So if I was a drinker, I wouldn't have done that. But that doesn't mean to say that what they think is, is right or wrong, and I'm, I'm righteous and I would have done the right thing. I just, I wouldn't have done that from what it would— The optics of it. What people would perceive me to be.

Especially having 2-0 down as well.

So what Finney's saying, that would be my choice, but their choice is their own, and they're grown men. And if, if it's to your own detriment, like if you don't play well, then like you get lashed the night before And then you come out the next day and you play a terrible shot first ball and you think, well, maybe I shouldn't have had the NPS. That's, that's definitely your performance, whether you're staying in the team, your stats, your career. So that's up to you as an adult to do that. So what Finney says there is absolutely right.

Yes.

That my choice might have been different, but that's my choice. And I've made loads of bad choices in my career. This isn't like I would do the right thing, they did the wrong thing. That's their choice, it's up to them. And they would give you a different argument and a different— so if you had someone sat here in the chair that was different from me, They might give you a different— you might go, oh, actually, when you put it like that, I could see why you did X, Y, and Z.

Yeah. So are you surprised, Marcus, what's happened over the last month or so, the sort of the implosion of it? I mean, you know, you know Ben Stokes very, very well. Yeah. Um, the way that he left and—

yeah, did you see that coming? Um, no, from the outside. Like, when you're in it, it doesn't feel as bad, but then when I obviously have come out The whole thing just looked like a mess. Like it looked chaotic to me. That's the way I would describe it. Like you had totally different, like, like I was worried when Baz's interview come out saying, we just care about Stokesy. We just want him to be okay. I was then panicking thinking, oh my God, he's not, he's not well again. Or, you know, so I'm messaging Ben and he's going, no, I'm fine. So I'm like, well, Summit's not marrying up here. Either you're not fine and you're not telling us you're not fine, or there's a problem the other end, and I couldn't work it out. It just looked like the the problem I had at the time was that I was sick of seeing England cricket dragged through the mud when I care about England. I love England. My pride is to play for England, but it just felt like we were in the headlines every week for something negative. Every week it was the coach or the captain or the drinking or the team or the golf or whatever it may be, it was like every week there was a massive headline about the team being bad or negative. And the only way you could change that is by everything being quiet and winning games. And then we lost. So it's like, it just got like into too much of a storm. I think it got into a big thunderstorm that I didn't feel it had to be like that.

No. Make snap decisions, Ben, doesn't he? And on the cricket field is often a real strength that he's able to do that. I mean, did that feel like a sort of knee-jerk decision to you for him to pack the whole thing in?

I think he talked honestly, and when you watch him on interview, he talks honestly about saying when he knew, he sort of knew that was up. But I think the only thing I would say is knowing Ben well is when I watched these interviews, he looked worn out to me. His eyes looked sunken. His body language, he just looked like he was unhappy. He looked a bit miserable and a bit worn out. That's the way I would say. And he's given so much. Like, people didn't realize that behind the scenes he does so much to try and— like, he might come across it like— I've said this a lot, but he might come across as an alpha or a bit prickly and stuff at times. But behind the scenes, like, he's honestly so loyal to people, wants the best for everybody, tries to get the best, and will formulate plans of How can this team get better? What can we do differently? So he does work hard, and I think just maybe off the back of Australia, you know, that took a lot out of him, and he was down after that, and I just think he just looked worn out. Have you seen him since? I have, I have. I've seen him a few times, and he's a joint player for Durham. I think it's been a different kind of worn out because he's been on the county belt and going here, there, and everywhere and starting here, and but actually playing with his friends and, and, um, lads he grew up with— Graeme Clarke, Ben Rean, these sort of lads— I think he's thoroughly enjoyed that. And, um, his performances have been, have been good as well.

Can you see him sitting on the sofa next summer watching the Ashes from home on the telly?

I don't know. That is the, that is the million-dollar question. I would love to see him come back. Um, I think he could probably still have a world where He's certainly going to be good enough. It's whether he's recharged and he's got that hunger. That's it. When he retired, it was because that had left him. Yes. If that comes back, then absolutely.

But Joe Root's a big mate of his as well.

As well, yeah. But do you want to push Ben? Because he'd be the type of lad that would go the other way. if you could, if you constantly bombard him, I think he'd gone the other way and gone, nah, nah, that's it. Like, I think you're better off just let him make his own mind up.

Who did Ben's text?

Moeen Ali. He said, Ashes?

So he's done it himself.

Yeah, I think, I think his, his challenge and his realization of not playing for England will come in December when the guys go to South Africa to play that series. Because I think when you're playing county cricket, England cricket is happening simultaneously, but you're distracted, you're concentrating, you're practicing, there's something occupying your mind whilst England are playing. It's actually the first time that you sit down when you're not in an England dressing room anymore and you've got nothing else to do in December. We might be playing franchise cricket somewhere, but you— and you see England walking out on the telly on an overseas tour, that's the, that's the one moment where you might sit there and go I think, I think I want to do that again. I, I think that's— and that might be a marker as to whether we see him in the Ashes next year, how he feels in December when he watches England playing in South Africa.

I also think that if you asked every member of the playing group, they love playing with Stokesy. He's a great guy to have in your team. And the, the— again, the public perception of what's happened in Australia, everything still feels quite raw then, then you retire. So That rawness might, you know, people might at this moment in time might think Stokesy is like slightly negatively, but if you asked every player in that dressing room, they'll want him in the team, not just for the fact that he can have match-winning moments, but the fact that he's a great teammate and someone that everybody loves to play alongside.

Yeah, you talk about how he looked in those interviews. I can't remember, were you in Grenada when the team lost and Joe Root, that was the end of Joe? You weren't playing, I don't think.

I'd gone home by then.

You've been injured again. Yeah. Oh, sorry to bring that up. But the point I'm only making is that I interviewed Joe Root that day. Yeah. And he was like that. He was just like a ghost, really. Yeah. And here he is again now. Yeah. He's 4 years on, very energized and very up for the job. So actually, you can, you can, you can come.

And I think that's why it's so good for Rooty to be captain, is the fact that This is a completely different team and time. I mentioned before you had the big characters of Broad, Anderson, Stokes, Bairstow. You know, in his last team, he almost had guys who knew their own game, that could deliver when needed. Now he has a chance to shape a team and be like, he's literally the last man, main man left of that era, and he can help bring these other lads through and implement himself on that team. Whereas before, You know, he was captain, and, and, but he had these great players to, or to manage, and it was just— I think it'll just be different for him this time.

Yeah, and very different to Ben Stokes in terms of the dressing room.

Yeah, he's just— they're great mates, Stokes and Rooty, but they're different characters, different people. Under, I think it was Spoons at the time, Chris Silverwood, Rooty did a lot of the work. And I feel like with Stephen Fleming coming in, I think Flem will do a lot of that work that Rooty had to do last time and let Rooty just be sort of captain on the field and not in hotel rooms making decisions with— because him and Spoons did a lot of work together, right, in terms of selections. And, and I think that's probably ultimately what wore Rooty down, was that COVID. Yes, selections, lots of— It was a tough time. Very tough times. Yeah. Whereas I think when Flem comes in, Flem will do a lot of that and Rooty can just focus on being the captain in the middle.

Well, that Ashes tour, we both covered that Ashes tour, Rooty's last one as captain. And even, even us as broadcasters not being able to travel into certain states. When you were in a state, you had to be locked in your room. You have to, if you want to go out for a walk or a coffee, you have to show a COVID pass to get into places. I think it's easy for us to forget just how challenging those times were. And I think that was 10 times more for those guys inside the bio bubbles of wanting to keep Cricket Australia afloat, basically, by making sure the series happens. I mean, me and Henry got COVID in Adelaide and we were made to feel like we were almost on the cusp of shutting the entire series down and closing the door. I mean, we could have done with it.

It might have been the solution.

Closing the doors of Cricket Australia.

We weren't allowed in.

We weren't allowed in.

Well, we didn't have COVID. We weren't allowed in the ground.

So I think it's easy to forget that this is going to feel like an absolute breath of fresh air to Joe. Yeah. To be in this situation with a brand new fresh start without all of that rubbish that he had to deal with towards the end of his captaincy. So the more I've thought about it, when he was first announced as captain, I was kind of like, I remember how tired he looked in Grenada. I was watching on the TV, but you're there thinking, God.

He's like a ghost.

He looks— he doesn't look like Joe Root to me. But the more I've thought about it, I didn't want him to get to that place as a captain again. But I don't think it's possible for him to get to that place as a captain again because this is going to be a short, sharp burst, it feels, as a captain, doesn't it? Yeah, 18 months, 2 years absolute max, it feels. And it's a chance for him to rewrite his captaincy legacy, which I think he'll be enthused by.

So do you know Stephen Fleming well? Would he— have you come across him?

Yeah, I played under Flemming Chennai Super Kings in the IPL. I had one season with them there. He picked me for the first game. I had none for 43 and then never played again.

So he's a very good judge, is what you're saying?

So I don't know if that was because I got whacked or because he'd seen my injury record and thought I can't play back-to-back games.

Yeah, right. But I, I mean, I've only dealt with him when he was captain of New Zealand, so we actually came across him quite a lot. But you seem like a very sort of calm, thoughtful, measured fella, um, you know, quite, say, a, a contrast to what there's been, which has been much more exciting and passionate and full-on and all in and all that sort of stuff.

My thing would be, if Baz is on that end of the scale where it's like, um, you know, relaxed, not much, a small group, uh, not much analysis, that kind of thing from, from a team point of view, to Andy Flower on the other end who was in— not now, but in his previous England regime, like very data-driven.

Yeah.

Um, all about like run rate stats, very specific in his coaching, big coaching setup. I would say Flem's probably more on the bad side but more in the middle, so you haven't swung back the other way, but You've come a little bit more towards the yeah, the middle style of a more all-rounded style of coaching.

Yeah, because it's very easy to kind of just dwell on the last couple of years of the last regime, isn't it? But the first the first eighteen months were exhilarating.

Amazing. Yeah, and amazing to be a part of. I think as a player, you know, to win in Pakistan, we won three nil there, which was an amazing result.

Yeah, unprecedented.

Yeah, and all that. You know, great results in New Zealand series, India, other things. So we had great wins and series and test wins in specific places. So there was a lot to like about that. And as a player, you felt ten feet tall. It was great to be in that team. It was exciting. Things were relatively simple. But yeah, just it just faded away, I guess, at the end where it was hard to claw back. But in that initial period. It was honestly amazing.

How did it help you as an attacking fast bowler to play in that? Because I looked at those first 2 years as someone who conceded runs but took wickets when I played for England. I kind of looked at it and thought that just looks so liberating for a fast bowler to be able to, like, just not just all-out attack because there's more nuance to the game even for attacking fast bowlers. You're not just wanging it down there every ball wanting to take a wicket every ball. But it looked to me like the bowlers, especially the guys who could bowl quick, were just completely free. Is that what it felt like?

Yeah, you would have loved it because it was— there wasn't the same amount of consequence on it. So like, you didn't feel like you were just gonna be thrown out the team or if you had a bad day. And ultimately, it took the pressure off you because it wasn't about how many runs you went for. And that's a big, obviously a big part of the game. But it was like, how many chances can you create? What momentum can you give? Or what style can you help for the guy at the other end? So a lot of the time, although I sometimes I didn't really like it, was I would bowl with Bash a lot. So Bash would rattle through his overs, which meant I was knackered, but we, we would complement each other. And that was a style of play. We don't care how many runs you go for, Woody. Be aggressive, make something happen at that end. And they'll— and then we've got Bash at the other end to try and, you know, they'll attack him and that'll give her a chance. Woody, when you come on with walks, Walks, you're gonna do this. Woody, I don't care where you bowl it, um, have this kind of feel. This is how you're gonna— if you've got to try a yorker in the middle of a thing, if you've got to try a— you literally had more freedom and scope to try things without the same consequences. Oh well, if that goes wrong, that spell you've gone at 7, 8 an over. Yeah, but you created one chance.

Do you think that was also the case with the batting?

And then it certainly helped my batting. But you've got to back off. Back— oh, absolutely, I'll back off against 90-mile-an-hour bowling. But he used to say things to me like, oh, try and get the crowd going. Or I'd walk out and he'd gone, see if you can hit a 6 today. And he was very clever in that he would do that because that would have, one, appealed to me, but 2, if the crowd could get up and going and I was the last man out, then when we come to bowl, there's a better feeling around the group.

Yeah, sure. So what about frontline batsmen?

Do you think there was enough consequence or accountability for what time period you're seeing, because I would have— would you have said that at the start when Jonny Bairstow was going wild?

No, because he was— but he was going wild scoring runs, wasn't he? I'm thinking more maybe Ashes and some of them.

I'm just thinking like the, the difference is, is that the lads that were— so when they first started, Bairstow, Stokes, Root, these were lads who had played a lot of cricket, a lot of one-day cricket. And, you know, Jonny was arguably at one stage the best ODI batter in the world at one point. So he knew how to take people on and the right times to take people on and which bowlers to target. So then I guess as the team developed and then you had changes in personnel, you know, these lads maybe hadn't played that style first coming in, and maybe that's where at times it was hard.

But I guess what I'm saying is, do you think there'll be less pressure on some of the batsmen now to play?

It's hard for me, right, because one of my favorite players in the team was Crawley.

Right.

I loved playing with Zak, like loved it. He was an amazing player to play with, honestly, as a teammate, class. And people can say negative stuff, oh, he only averages this, only averages that, but his average was never brought into it in the dressing room. Never ever. It was never talked about. It was always about, get them on at the start, put them under pressure. We've got Root, Brook, Stokes, and the Hatch in the middle order. You know, if their bowlers are going to 4 or 5 an over under pressure and then they come in They're going to be under more pressure. So Zak was like, he would whack fast bowling as well. Like, he didn't score 180 against Australia if he kind of played. He didn't get 200 against Pakistan if he kind of played.

That innings in— So like, it was extraordinary.

So like, it's, it's hard for me to talk about because again, the public perception will be, well, how did Zak play 60 Tests if he averaged 32? But for me playing the side, I loved playing with Zak. I was like, I wanted to watch him and take people on. You had the guy that was 6 foot 6 and a guy that was 5 foot or 4 foot 3, and it was mint to watch them both bat.

Left hand, right hand is everything.

Like, I actually loved it. Yeah. And as a media, you guys could, would, and rightly so, for field, criticize and be critical of that. But I never felt that as a player in the group. I never felt that. Yeah, honestly, it was never taught about in the group.

So if I'm appointing you then, because Steve Fleming's not around yet, so you're, you're, you're the coach the next couple of games, Woody, uh, and you've got Joe Root now as captain, and you've got with this, this set of players, what's your blend going to be?

I'd get the public out and say block the bum off it.

We don't want that. We don't want that. What would you— what would you— what do you think? You've got a couple of dials there.

I don't know. I think— I think—

How are you going to blend it? What has been and what—

See, I was— I wasn't a maverick player. I was trying to— someone that would work hard. I wasn't the most talented player. I was, if anything, I was pretty average bowler, but I'd try my very best every time I played. And, you know, charging every time, whether it was flat, whether it was green, whether it was bouncier. So I'd want my team to be, if I wanted them to be someone, or how I view the game, my value would be never ever give in, you know, be not sensible, but let's be, play with common sense at times and hold values that are true to the country that we play for.

Yeah, but in terms of the positivity that was so good about those first couple of years, kind of how it finished.

Um, why can't you have an all-round? Why can't it be— why can't it be both?

Well, that's what I'm saying to you. So, so what's your blend? What, what's your ideal blend of, of how you think these next couple of years—

put me under pressure here, I guess. I haven't even got my level 3 yet, still in the midst of it. Well, talk about mentality.

Yeah. Um, how you approach it, because we don't want it to go back to blocking.

No, no, no, no, no. I think, I think Rooty's a great example of that, someone that's You know, you could tell how proud he is to play for England, and you want the perception of the England fans to be proud of their team. Rooty's a proud player, and every time he wears the top or he's got his pads on, you can tell that he gives his all. He's not the most athletic bloke at times, but he runs hard between the wickets every time. He concentrates for long periods of time. He carried the team on his shoulders in Sri Lanka when he got like 200 when it was red hot. Um, so I think you want a team to be a mold of that captain really, and the values that he holds strong are different, or slightly different, maybe similar in some ways, slightly different in other ways to how Stokes' team was molded. So I think going forward you want to be a mold of the best things that Joe Root brings.

I think you earn the right, don't you, in the game to have your fun and I think the argument against the team that played in the last 2 years is that at times they tried to have their fun too soon in games or in situations where it would then spiral out of control and then the game would be beyond them. So yesterday for me was actually a really good example. There was discipline with the ball, which we lacked in Australia, um, and, and cost us at the beginning of games where they got absolute flyers, and then you're chasing it from there. Robinson Just bowl consistently, hit a line and length, and set the tone, which I thought was excellent yesterday. But with the bat, Root and Cox in particular, to get through to the close when it was a bit cloudy— I know they were on top and the change bowlers weren't brilliant yesterday for Pakistan, but it would have been easy to just toss it away in that situation and nick one. Then you're putting Brook under pressure, who's coming in next, and then things can spiral from there. To see Cox, who is a naturally attacking player, leaving anything that was outside off stump at the end last night, you're kind of looking at it thinking he's earning his right here that if we do get play today and if we go through the day and they're 250 for 2, if he gets out playing a scoop or a reverse, I don't care because he's earned his right to get to that point where he can play like that. And I think it's just knowing the right time to differentiate between the two of them. Yes. Is the important way for this team to evolve, and I thought yesterday was good signs.

Positive, but but but with more flexibility perhaps.

Yeah, but I'd also I'd also flip that as well though. So let's you all as a as media, as players, as fans, you'll always go through the waves, won't you? Waves of right, we're not playing very well, so everything's doom and gloom. All of a sudden you come up on the wave, everything everybody's the best thing since sliced bread. Robospool fantastic here, yes. It's been a bit miserly. It's been great. We're at the end of August, nearly early September. The ball nips around. He's perfect, perfect for them conditions, and rightly so. He should be lauded for the way he bowls because he bowled fantastically well. The challenge for Robbo was in India, in Pakistan, in Australia away when it's hot under 5 days. So you have to ride that storm. All of a sudden, if Robbo went to Australia and he didn't perform well everybody would be saying we need faster bowlers. So you have to ride it and have common sense and a middle ground with everything. In Australia, the memo was we're going to pick faster bowlers because on previous England tours we've picked lads that don't bowl as— more controlled bowlers that don't bowl as quick, and it hasn't gone well for us. We're going to copy the Australia blueprint of 85 mph plus. The difference is they've played in them conditions for ages and were more accurate and bowled better than we did. But you can see why the blueprint was like that. So you have to use common sense at times.

Forces for courses.

With like, it has to be, it has to be a— like Finney says, earn the right. Everything has to be blanketed. If you get too up high with everybody is amazing and then it doesn't go right, you then hit rock bottom. If rock bottom isn't going well and then someone comes in and does well, you then skyrocket it up. You want that level to be a little bit more Sort of Lake Windermere, just just drifting and bobbing rather than the North Sea of crashing waves up and down. So you have to. I totally understand why people did things the way we were, but from fans or me looking on the outside, you can quickly shift from well why wasn't Robbo in the ashes? Yeah, of course. When he goes like that, this horses for courses. Why isn't such? Why didn't the batters play that way? And why doesn't so? If things go well, then it's like, well, this is an amazing style of play. If things go badly, then all of a sudden it's why we're doing that. So it's somewhere probably in the middle.

And it gets confused, does it not, when you have a tour of India or of Bangladesh or somewhere like that before you go somewhere where you actually need the quicker style of bowling? Because that type of— the quick bowler is not suited for there. They go to Bangladesh before this one-off Test in Australia, actually. So you're picking entirely different teams.

You have to be realistic, don't you? You have to be realistic. Like, if it's me and Finny going, if we're both fast bowlers and I don't bowl well, there isn't this, well, you shouldn't have picked fast bowlers. It's just that I didn't bowl well and should have bowled better. He could go and bowl absolutely brilliantly, and then no one is saying, well, you shouldn't have picked Stephen Finn as a fast bowler. So in the Ashes, did we look back and think that we bowled amazingly well? At times we didn't, but that first innings at Perth, we played four fast bowlers and bowled fantastically well. Yeah, yeah. So you've got to marry it up with both arguments, I feel.

Yeah, that's hurt that test, hasn't it?

Yeah, I cannot let it go on. Honestly, I brought it up.

I could see. I could see. Well, yeah, but you've been very honest, Woody. It's been.

It's been a really interesting chat about all of that, and I will not because we mentioned about the headlines at the end of day one of Perth. I'm just looking at Adam here. I'll be turning my phone off for at least thirty-six hours now. I mean, headlines that I've just no, you think I've just.

Lovely. We're just chatting away like, like, like 3 old mates, which is, which is great. And thanks. Good to have your company today. And you too, Finny. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So much sport today and all the goals as they go in up and down the league.

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