Matt Prior: "The wicketkeeper needs to be the drummer of the band"

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You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Hello, welcome to the test match special pod ahead of the third Ashes test in Adelaide. Ball by ball commentary on TMS from 5 to 11 tomorrow night and through throughout the week. With us this evening, Stephen Finn, Simon Katic and Matt Pryor. And we'll get on to the cricket very shortly. But I, I would imagine, Simon, given the, the terrible events over the weekend at Bondi, that the atmosphere might feel a little different tomorrow in Adelaide.

Yes.

Good evening Mark and morning boys. Matty and, and Finney.

Look at.

Yeah, definitely a somber mood here and we. Well, I'm in Adelaide now, but at the test match dinner last night, all the flags were flying half mast at the ground and particularly in Sydney on Sunday evening. And yesterday at home there was a very somber mood because I think everyone's in a state of shock that this could happen at an iconic beach, probably the world's most iconic beach at Bondi and particularly on a Sunday evening after a beautiful day in Sydney. So I think everyone's feelings go out to the families and everyone involved to those tragic events and to see the innocent people's lives lost. Lost. It's just, yeah, unbelievable to think that this has happened in our backyard.

It is. Thank you, Simon. So Stephen and Matt are with us as well and as far as the cricket is concerned, there is a lot to be discussed. The England team news is out. Just the one change. Josh Tong coming in for Gus Atkinson. So that means Shahrod Bashir is out once again which I don't know. Were you expecting it Stephen?

Yeah, I kind of was expecting it. I think all the news coming out of the, the camp and the people who've watched the games, the warm up games and the Lions games have said that Bashir hasn't out bowled Will Jax in those situations. So I think it was kind of anticipated that he would, that he would get the nod ahead of shirt Bashir especially given his, his batting prowess and, and how that lengthens the eng.

Do you think this then Matt Evening by the way, do you think this comes down to simply form with Bashir?

I'm with Vinnie. It's, it's no big shock. I don't think that Bashir is not playing. Look, we'll obviously talk about Bashir and what he brings to the team or, or doesn't but I think Will Jax how he went about his chance in Brisbane was, was hugely impressive actually. I think England be very conscious that yes they've got to take 20 wickets to win the test match but they've got to try and get themselves in some position to take those 20 wickets which will be by getting runs. And the way Will Jacks played composure he showed. I think it would have been very difficult for the England management to, to sort of turn a blind eye to that. If Bashir played you know, in the warm up games as, as Finnie had suggested, if he had turned up and, and really performed well then of course you're probably going to give him a go. But if there's not much to give between Jax and Bashir from a bowling perspective but Jax adds the fielding side but more importantly the batting side then there's really only one choice.

So do you, do you when you talk about how he managed his opportunity in the second Test, are you talking more with the bat than the ball there and on current form and from what we're being told about show Bashir you're also suggesting that probably there isn't that much difference between them all when it comes to bowling.

Yeah. So. So, so will Jackson have much of a chance with the ball in Brisbane? But, but certainly first innings it was tense situation having not played Test Krieger for three years and I felt how he went about it, how he looked at the crease, his calmness, his composure where other players who are far more experienced batting higher up the order couldn't, couldn't quite do that. He, he was the perfect foil and certainly in the second innings batting with Ben Stokes the captain, he, you know, we. That was the first time, really, we looked like we had Australia asking some questions. And, you know, the camera kept panning onto Nathan Lyon and they're sort of, you know, selling the. SAT in the stands. And it was the first time England had actually put a partnership together where Australia, as I say, were, had no real, real answers. And a lot of that, yes, he had Stokes at the other end, but a lot of it was down to how Will Jax had batted. I'd actually thought that, you know, there's potential for him to bat higher up the order based on what I. What I saw there. Also, he looked really organized. He looks like he. He knows his game. It's one thing having all the shots as a batsman, but it's a completely different thing as to know when to use those shots in certain circumstances. And. And it looked from. From that evidence that he had that.

Matt talks about the camera panning to Nathan Lyon in the. In the second Test, he's made sure he's got his point across Simon in the third Test. I mean, he's right at the forefront of the Australian housery here, ahead of England selecting the team. I would be surprised if their number one spinner isn't playing, if I'm honest with you.

Well, we were all surprised that he didn't play in Brisbane, given the conditions up there. It looked like a, you know, a good batting track. We knew it was going to be warm and humid and there wasn't a lot of grass on the wicket. But look, at the end of the day, Australian selectors can look back and say they got it right because Michael Neeser was the man that pretty much replaced him and, and bowled beautifully and created pressure, particularly under lights. But that could have played out completely differently if England had taken their chances in the first innings and basically batted Australia out of that position on day two. And what I mean by that is the Stokes run out cost England being able to take the innings deep into day two and make Australia sort of start their innings later in the day. And that was costly. I think I agree with what Matt and Finney was saying about Bashir. I think, you know, in terms of form, that overrides everything. Jax put a high price in his wicket, and I think that's where England. That's the. That's the sort of flick of the switch they need in this test. It was only really Root Stokes and Jax that put a high price on their wicket in Brisbane. The others didn't. And they paid the price for not getting 450 in the first innings. And as a result, Australia controlled the rest of the test match. So I think if they do that, they're in this series and can get.

Back into it, back to the sort of Bashir Jax discussion. Then, Steven, on the one hand you could go, well, hang on a minute. England had been planning for a while how this attack was going to shape up in Australia and now it doesn't appear to be going that way at all. Or on the other hand, you go, well, they've got to show strong leadership here and if they've been planning for this for ages but somebody isn't delivering, they have to change their plans. Which, which side would you be on?

I think you have to be pragmatic in the situation. I don't think you can preempt, especially on a tour like this, someone playing months and years out. You can hope that they will be able to, and you can hope that they'll be able to play a big part. And this week we kind of foresee spin playing a part in the game. Nathan Lyon is the leading wicket taker at the Adelaide Oval ever. Second on the list is Shane Warne. There's going to be 37, 38 degrees here in Adelaide this week and it's a pitch that's a good pitch, but starts dry and then gets drier. So it wouldn't be a surprise if spin played a big part in it. There's kind of similarities and you don't know what's going on and you don't know exactly the situation. But I went on the tour of 2013, 14 with great hope of playing a big part of being one of the main bowlers in the team, in the squad, helping us retain the Ashes because we held them at that stage. And I ended up not playing a game of the five. You're kind of the forgotten man on tour. I was compounding bad habits in the nets by training harder and harder and I got myself in such a tears that it got to a stage where the leadership group couldn't have picked me to go out and play in a test match because I wasn't in the right mental or I wasn't able to deliver the, the skills that were required of me. So there's the human element of it as well. And to look further ahead that if you throw someone into this environment and they're not quite ready and they're not quite right at such a young age, like, yes, he's, he's played for a few years and, and he's played a Decent amount of Test matches. He's now the youngest player ever to take 50 Test wickets. But at such a young age, if, if you're not quite ready, we, we've seen how harsh this environment can be. It might be kinder not to play him in that situation. So yeah, there's probably more going on behind the scenes and yeah, you have to, the management have to select the people they think can go out and deliver and this is the 11 that they think can.

Do you think Simon, sometimes that, that difficulty that Steven has alluded to there when you are a touring side is not understood by the cricket in public, should we call it like that? You know that if you are touring and not being selected actually then getting the opportunity to show what you can do is actually quite limited on modern tours.

If Finney's absolutely spot on, I think formal always overrides anything that's happened in the past and we're in completely different conditions to what he's been playing in over the last few years and he's never, Basheer's never played here in Australia so it was always going to be a big challenge. And what it highlights also is the lack of preparation with England in this situation because they played a couple of games at Lilac Hill amongst each other, they don't really know where everyone's at on the, on the fringes. And that's what highlights, you know, the decision around not playing these tour matches. And I think the last time England won here in 2010, 11 they played three games. One was at the Wacker, one was Adelaide over one was the MCG. They won all those games. Yes, it was a better England team but you know, there's no substitute for match hardened match practice to know exactly where you're at because you get instant feedback with bat born in the field. So they've taken shortcuts and they're paying the price because of that.

It's difficult to know, isn't it Matt? Then how we. How show Bashir kind of gets himself back into this again?

I agree fully with, with Finney and what another thing I'll throw in the mix, right? He's a spin bowler in the nets. I can tell you now not many batters are blocking the spin bowler back. They're absolutely trying to hit him for six every single ball and if you get out in the nets it doesn't really matter. So poor old show Bashir has got his only opportunity to show the selectors coach captain how good he's going bowling in the nets because they're no warm up games and no practice matches and every batsman, Brooke Root Stokes, he's got to go and batter. He's trying to hit him 100 meters out the net with, with no accountability or whether they get out right. So that isn't, that is another, another element. And as Finnie said, for a bowler, if your only opportunity is in nets and on the training ground, it's very hard to get, to get ahead you, you can't take wicket, you know. Yeah, okay you can look, you can tell okay guys in rhythm or not you can tell these things. But, but if it's a, if it's a half, half call, you're kind of always going to go with a guy that's got a bit of match practice or played in the match previously. If it's a borderline shout. So for, for Bashir right now it's, it's really. This was the game he had to play. I think Adelaide takes spin. The last time England won in Australia 2010, 11 Graham Swan took five wickets to win the game. This, this would be the game that showed Bashir would, would play and they'd say right, spin is going to play a role. He's our lead spinner. He gets a go but he's missed out. So I don't really see how he comes back to it. Look, who knows. England also know that they have to win this game for the series to still be alive. So what happens after this is almost irrelevant.

If they lose, can you understand the selection of Josh Tong for, for, for Gus Atkinson?

Yes, I, I can. Okay. They haven't played a lot of test cricket as in days of test cricket. What did they play? Six out of, you know, six so far. 10. However, the intensity of those games, the heat, Brisbane was a flat wicket right as well. Atkinson steamed in. It's always, it's always an amazing thing in cricket. The batsmen don't score runs and one of the bowlers misses out. You know that was. We always had Finn, Finn Broad, Anderson always complaining about, about that. You know, you guys don't get the runs and one of us has to, has to mix, mix the drinks. Which, which doesn't doesn't always make sense. But I think they want to change something. I think tongue bowls are slightly different length. Finney will obviously be able to talk more about this, but tongue bowls are slightly fuller length which I think is what, what England have been missing. Something that Stark has done brilliantly and, and that that will offer something quite different. I suppose the conversation really is around Atkinson versus Kass, I think a lot of people would have suggested maybe Kass misses out. He. He really didn't look in. In great nick. Didn't have a great deal of rhythm. But I think there's something showing here with, with Stokes and certainly how he was at the end of the last Test match. He, he's looking for guys who, who are willing, who are still in the fight and want to get in the fight and want to get in the battle. And I think that Bryden Kass is one of those guys. He charged in and charged in and charged in and chased every ball to the boundary. He, He. He strikes me as one of those. One of those guys you want in the trenches with you. And I think Stokes sees him, sees him as that. So maybe he's been selected as much for his mentality as that is as actually his skill level.

Come, come to the makeup of that England attack then. With you, Stephen, in just a moment. But Simon, you have coached Josh Tong and in fact, in the hundred, he did get Steve Smith out. And in fact, he's got Steve Smith out in four different innings. Dismissed him every time he's bowled to him. County Championship, the hundred twice at Lords. But as a. What. What is he like to coach? What will he bring to this England team?

Well, for a young guy, I think what he brings is 6 foot 4. He's got height. I was surprised he didn't play at the Gabba, given that. I thought England got their selection spot on in Perth, playing the battery of four quicks and then having Stokes as the backup so they could use them in short bursts. And obviously when Wood went down, they had to change that dynamic. They probably saw the wicket at the Gabber and felt like they needed at least a spin option in Jax. But, yeah, I was surprised he didn't play up there purely because there is pace and bounce and it doesn't surprise me he's been picked here. I was surprised it was at Atkinson's expense because I think Atkinson is a better bowler than Brighton Castle. I think that shows in his, you know, stats so far in his career. But also he. He bowled really well in Perth. He didn't get the rewards there, Atkinson, but he built up pressure and that's what stood out on that that first day. They complimented each other well. But I agree with what Matt said about cast. There's no doubt he kept trying. The problem is when you're trying, you keep going halfway down wide. He kept getting smashed everywhere and that. That's something that, you know, as soon as you're not, you're leaking runs. The way he was, hard to build up any pressure. So as much as he tried well, I still think it comes down to being able to execute your skills. And I thought we saw that pretty well for Mackinson in the second inning, so I'm surprised he missed out. But I think if they make the change, they should have made the change with one of the batters. I agree. The bowlers always pay the price. I would have put it on the batters in this situation. Gordon, we're playing one less. Jax moves up to six, someone bats at three. Whether it's Stokes, Pope misses out and you go right, you guys get the job done. Knuckle down, someone makes a big hundred. Root did it at Gabba. Now it's time for Brooke to clock on, Stokes to clock on as the leader. Jax batted beautifully, put it on the batters, have the extra bowler in there, whether it's Bashir or Tom or Atkinson, and go that way, down that path because you need to take 20 wickets. And you know, I get you have to make runs to win tests, but I just think they had to put it on their batters in this test because it should be good batting conditions and it's going to be red hot here. So have the extra protection with the ball because the England bowlers are underdone. Let's not forget they couldn't back up in Perth. It was hot in Brisbane and now it's going to be hot here in Adelaide. So I would have gone the other way and Ollie Pope would have played the price.

Yeah, I think they're all very, very valid points, but nice to hear some batter sticking up for the bowlers as well in that situation. But it's. Yeah, I think what, what Tongue will bring is, is in a really attacking threat. And I think at times England have struggled for those, for those breakthroughs when they've been big partnerships or. I think he's just got that. Something bit different about him is angles beyond the perpendicular, which is different to the other bowlers. And he can swing the ball away from right handers. So. So, yeah, I think I was a bit surprised that it was Atkinson that missed out because he's only taken three wickets in this series so far. But. But you look at his style in Australia, that good control, hitting, the bounce, he can be a really difficult customer to deal with. So it felt like he could have a bag of wickets around the corner. But I would agree with Matt's point that I think Stokes is looking around that dressing room and thinking, who's in this with me? And I don't think that's saying that Atkinson isn't.

Does that come.

I just think he get.

Does that come back to his. His mentality. Comments interview after the. After. And I'm not. Again, I'm not saying it's not a reflection on Atkinson, but do you think it's what he feels on cars, bearing in mind what he talked about the dressroom mentality under him?

Yeah, well, me and Matt spoke to him directly after that game and he had this look in his eyes. He was considered in what he said, he was thoughtful in what he said, so he clearly meant it. Sometimes when comments like that are said in press conferences or interviews, it can be a bit emotional because it's really raw. But he was thoughtful in the way he chose his words when he spoke to us and when he spoke to the other press. So, yeah, I think certainly knowing Ben Stokes, his character, he wants to be able to look around the dressing room and see people who are going to be visibly there on the field. Because I think that was a bit missing in the England innings or the first innings in the Gabba as well. And Matt picked up on it whilst we were there. Was that energy and presence in the field, wasn't there the entire time when it needed to be. And I think Brydon cast brings that to the team.

Let's hear from the England camp. Here's Harry Brook.

They were shocking shots. I admit that every day of the week, especially that one in Perth, it's nearly a bounce and I've tried to drive it.

It's just.

It was just bad batting. The one in Brisbane I've tried to take for six. So, yeah, that's what I mean when I. When I try, when I try to say that I need to rein it in a little bit, I can. I can almost just take that and hit it for one and get down the other end. Whoever else is in with me at the other end can just get on strike and just keep trying to rotate. But I'll be the first person to stand up and say that they were bad shots and, yeah, I don't regret them, but if I was there again, I'd try and play it slightly differently. Most of the time when I've been overly aggressive is when we've lost early wickets and I've tried to counter, punch and put them back in, back under pressure, and I tried to do that in Perth. In the first innings, I played quite nicely, gloved one down the leg. Side. But yeah, I tried to read situations as well as possible and then it all depends on my execution and so far my execution hasn't been as good as it has been at the start of my career.

What have you learned personally?

Sometimes I've got to rein it in a little bit, learn when to absorb the pressure a little bit more and then realise when the opportunity arises to put pressure back on them. I feel like I probably haven't done that as well as I usually do in this series so far. No reason behind that. I just haven't identified them situations well enough.

Is there anything you're going to alter.

About your game this week?

I'm just going to to see and adapt as well as possible and the great thing about batting in the middle order is you get to watch for a little while. So I'll be thinking about my game and the risks and the options that I have before I go out there.

Do you like what you're hearing, Simon?

I loved it. I picked him as being England's most dangerous player leading into this series and the reason I said that was because having watched him closely over the last sort of three or four years in England in all formats now is that he's got the ability and, and got the time, most importantly, which a lot of players don't have. And I think he'll go on to be, you know, a great of English cricket because he just does things so easy, easily. He can score all around the wicket and he can do it against both pace and spin at will. But what I would be saying to him is, mate, you bank 100 runs for the team first and then you can play basball all you want and get your next hundred off, you know, the next 10 or 15 overs if you want, once you've banked those runs. Because he could be a real threat. We saw it in Perth. He looked really dangerous in that first innings. He was a little bit unlucky to get out, caught down leg side. But then from here on in he's been undisciplined and I reckon the reason in everyone was so disappointed with him in Brisbane was because he gets the 30 effortlessly. And then the very first ball of what was probably going to be the toughest spell of the the day against Mitchell Starr. He doesn't have a look at him, doesn't sort of sense, right? This could be Australia's last chance here with an older ball, tries to flash, the one gets out. All he had to do was just ride that spell out or just have a look for at least an over doesn't do that. Pays the price. And then it opened England up and it's just that lack of game awareness that he shows at times, which is probably frustrating because he's got all the talent in the world. He just hasn't applied it at the moment. But I think he could swing that around for the rest of the series.

Look, he's a fairly experienced cricketer already and I apologize, Stephen, if this question isn't really directed at you, but more at Matt and Simon in the middle. And you go first. Ma. Did it take you a while, many, many tests of test cricket to be able to identify what you needed to do in certain situations? Because that was the phrase that Harry Brooke used. I haven't identified the situations. Well, does it, does it come with experience? Is it about a philosophy? What is it?

Well, they always say you can't buy experience first and foremost. And the more, the more times you in, out in the middle in different situations and you make you. You learn from your mist. Know cricket is a game of failure more often than not. And, and each time you fail, you learn, or certainly the best players learn from that and don't make that mistake again. I think that's one of been. That's one of the frustrating things with Brook and, you know, I said it when I was out there in, in Brisbane. He. He, for me, is the best young England batsman I've seen. And I include Peterson, I include roots, I include any. Anyone else that during my era has turned up. Brook, the way he lines it up, the shapes he gets into and how cleanly he strikes a ball, and also how many. He. He mentioned the word options. The problem he has is he's got so many options. You know, one ball, he can probably play six different shots to right. Alistair Cook was very lucky. He only had three shots his whole career, so he didn't have many choices, whereas Brook's got so many. But it's, it's, it's, it's again, applying the right shot in the right situation to the right to the right ball and also sometimes putting your ego to one side. I think this. You know, I hate this word basball, to be honest. It is a media name. You know, it's a media term. But there's been a bit of ego play and in, in series like the Ashes, you. You have to put that to one side and words are used, absorb pressure. My, My worry for quite a while now around this basball mentality is that. And I understand when McCollum first came into the Dress room, right, this, this came about. He, he wanted to create a, a culture and an attitude within the dressing room that allowed batsman to play freely. Someone like an Ollie Pope, right, who, who looked timid and scared to get out because the, the press were going to nail him. So Baz came in and said, right, we're going to play with freedom. Stokes is our leader. He's going to lead from the front and show you what you guys can do. Fantastic. Love the idea, love the ethos. It then went a little bit too far where accountability and responsibility was sort of deserted for this sort of fearless laissez faire approach. And they went so far down that route that actually it's quite hard to then bring it back. So when someone does play a terrible shot, coach and captain can't go. Well, that was a shocking shot, mate, you know, in the press. Whereas I think Stokes has got to the point certainly at the end of last Test match where he's like, right, enough's enough. We've, we've, we've copped, you know, the coach and I have stood in enough press conferences backing you guys after you play terrible shot after terrible shot. We need to cash our chips in now. We, we've invested a lot of time into you guys. We, we need this back, we need this repaid. So Harry Brooke, you are that good, you can absorb pressure, you can make a decision that actually in that moment when Stark is going to bowl the most difficult spell, you're going to be the guy that stands out there and does not play a shot for 45 minutes. Because you know, if you get through that, you've got dog it, you know, a niece at the other end that you can hit wherever you want. And that's the sort of decision making in that crucial, crucial time where, where, where Brooke does and a number of the England players need, need to improve. One thing I will add though, is if, if he does do that, my good God. I'm excited as an England fan because at Adelaide on what is a phenomenal batting surface, usually Brook with his head on. I'm expecting a pretty good return.

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You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

You do sense, don't you, that the. The mood has changed, Stephen. I mean, most of the interviews, in fact all of them probably since the second test ended, have felt like they've been saying things that England fans have probably wanted to hear.

Yes. Yes, it's. Yeah, it's been a slight change of tact, isn't it? I think to admit that you've made mistakes as well is something that's quite difficult for players in press conferences like that. But I think my gut feeling is that there were a few home truths delivered after that last Test match. And I think Matt's right that Ben Stokes, as someone who's proud and who is very good at recognizing those situations in games, would have stood there and said, come on guys, this is, this is, this is a really important moment in our journey as a team. Now we cannot afford to throw those positions away because the big frustration the first two games, as we've all alluded to, England after four sessions in Perth was so far ahead of the game it seemed inconceivable that they could throw it away. And they did because they didn't recognize the importance of that first hour of making sure that they then could grind Australia for the rest of that day. They missed that opportunity, they lost that test and the same on day one, that moment in Brisbane at the Gabba, England win the toss, bat first, they have the best of the conditions before the pitch is cracked and before it starts going a bit more up and down. They got themselves in a position to be able to negotiate that twilight period, and they didn't. And you must be, as a coach or a captain and the cap's been a coach, you must be sat there tearing your hair out that your players don't recognize that situation. So I think that the home truths delivered between the second and third Test, hopefully now have switched those England players heads on. And that's reflected in the way that they're speaking in the media.

The only issue is that as a coach, I don't reckon I could be pulling my hair out, one, because I got less of it these days, but two, because the whole ethos has been around playing this aggressive cricket. And the problem is you reap what you sow in this game. And these guys have been playing like this for three years now. The problem is it doesn't suit in these conditions against a new ball, against the quality of this Australian attack. So that's the problem. You've got as a coach, you've been wanting them to play this style of cricket. Take the game on, take the game on. I heard about their training yesterday. Apparently not one player was blocking the ball in the net, so just laying into it, smashing everything. So the problem is, if you want to go down this path and play ultra aggressive, you can in the right conditions, but you've got to earn the right to do it. And they haven't earned the right to do it in the first two tests so far. Root and Stokes were the standouts in that first Test and Crawley, sorry, Crawley in the second test of the Gabba. And so they've shown the way now as to how to have success in these conditions against the Australian attack. You've got to wear them down. India have done it in the past, here in recent times. And that's where, as a coach, the messaging has to be really clear now, because they have to temper the game plan because it hasn't worked being ultra aggressive. This is probably the conditions where if they do get set, you know, maybe someone can go big if they wear the opposition down. And I think that's what this young England attack needs. They need to have Australia in the field for a day and a half and wear down some of these older batters to give them a chance to knock them over cheaply when they do get their time in the field.

And so I want to turn it to when England are in the field, though. And I know, Matt, when you were There at the second Test, some of the stuff you're saying on telly, frustrated about England's lack of energy at times, England's lack of zip at times. And yes, it was tough and yes, there are long periods where your backs are against the wal, but you still need people to keep spirits up, don't you? And I think, I think, if memory serves me right, that frustrated you.

Yeah, pretty frustrating. Yeah, absolutely. It is what you do as a test cricketer. It's a non negotiable. Building intensity on the field is, is what you do as a group and it has to be. You've got to view it as ultimately, when you're in the field together, it's 11 versus 2. And you've got to make the two batsmen feel like it's 11 versus 2.

Does that start with you in your role as wicketkeeper?

It certainly did in the group that I played in, in the dressing room that I played in and had a bit of a chat to Ian Healey when I was out there. And it certainly was his mentality. Brad Haddon for Australia, he very much can talk about Gilchrist and what he did in that group. But, you know, I, I was always brought up that the Wiki Keeper is the drummer of the band, right? So that, that, that's your role. You've got to be that guy. And it's not necessarily, you know, sledging or anything else, but it's just your intensity and your action and your, your body language as much as anything else. Now, these guys do a load of fitness work off the pitch. What's the point of doing that if, when you get to a hot day in Brisbane, everyone disappears? The reason you do all your training off the pitch or the training in the gym or the shuttling is so when it comes to that moment, you've got what you need. You've got what you've got, got what you need in the engine and you got the engine to then be able to dig deeper and shuttle and hustle around and everything else. Now, there's a number of things here for me. One is the intensity that you create around the batsman and feel that they're being hunted, literally being hunted. And that is the Wiki Keeper's role, to get your slips, you gully. And this is. And you're doing this because you're taking away from the captain. The captain's got enough to think about. He's got to be thinking about who's bowling next, what field placements are what, what plans they're executing to individual Batsmen, etc, etc, the wiki keeper then takes the role of running that group, everyone else on the pitch. So you're grabbing your point fielder, your gully, your extra cover, anyone that's around him and saying, right, you get that ball to me, every single ball. Because we want to put these batsmen under pressure.

If you are of a, you know, a quieter individual, say, can you still be influential as the drummer behind the stumps?

As I say, for me, it's, it's not about noise, it's about actions and it's about what you, you know, you, you can. So there's certain things, sorry, if you, if you're quiet, you're introverted, you're out of form, you, you can nick a ball, get out, you can have no rhythm when you're bowling. But, but shuttling between, oversight, that's a choice, right? That's a physicality. That's, that's something that you can do whether you're the noisiest man in the dressing room or the quietest. That's, that's just an action. Running up to the stumps every ball and demanding the ball from the field is to throw it into you so the batsman's having to jump out the way each time they throw it at. Throw it at you. That. That's a choice that you don't have to say a word. You, you can just do that through your actions. When there's a half chance you appeal, you scream as if your life depends on it. Because you want that wicket, because you're playing in the actress. This is, this is what it means to you. You don't just sort of hold a hand up and go, hey, well, come on, guys, we. We. This has to mean more. And again, it's that intensity in the field that is a decision. Now, the other thing for me is that the importance of this. I think it was Steve Waugh that said that it's the window to how they are in the field, is the window to the team soul. And you're giving a lot of yourself to the opposite. So when you're batting and you're watching a team in a field and you feel like you've got them on the ropes, I tell you, every player is watching every other fielder and going, who's out, who's gone? Who's giving it a. Who's throwing the towel in, you know, who can we pick on next? Because they don't fancy it. Now, you can't give anything of yourself when you're, when you're in the field. You can't look like you've ever been defeated. And as a group you have to. Now, if someone disappears, that is the keeper's role to go and grab that person and say, hey, come on, mate, you, you and me, five overs, we're shuttling together. Or every time you drive a dive on a ball, get it to me, I'll get it back to you. Come on, let's, let's, let's get something going here. Because that also then adds and helps the bowlers out. There was an example where Joffre was mid spell when, when Stark and Boland were in the middle of that partnership. He just finished bowling dives, balls hit to him, he dives full stretch to his left, stops ball great stop right. He's then sort of like peels himself off the outfield, has to then pick the ball up, walk to the other end to give the, the umpire his cap and then bowl his next over. Not one England fielder went up to him and gave him a pat on the backside or anything's great effort made love that. We're right behind you, we're all in. Not one player. Now, the group that won in 2010-11, we made, we made a deal that no bowler would have to walk an extra 20 yards to give their cap to an umpire because if we can save them 20 yards, times that by how many times they bowl and over times that by how many days in the field over the course of nine weeks of Ash's cricket, actually that's more than 1 or 2% that you add and it's giving something of yourself to your teammate to say, you know what, I'm going to put myself out there to get your cap, run it to the umpire because I want you to focus on the job that you need to do, not worrying about walking to the umpire. Now, that's going to probably sound like a ridiculous thing, but it's these little touches that go a hell of a long way when you're in a super intense competition like the Ashes.

It doesn't sound at all if I actually. Stephen, what it, what it shows is every individual taking responsibility for the greater good of the team.

You talk about bowlers setting the tone and the bowlers need to go out there and hit their strap straight away, which England didn't do in that last Test match and allowed Australia to get that flyer with, with Weatherald and head in their first innings. But, but the way that the, the fielding team operates and the way that the energy is in the field, the bowlers feed off that as well, it means that you just have that few extra percent, your knees pick up a bit harder. Someone dives on a ball at backward point and it zipped in over the top of the stumps. That is something that creates an atmosphere for a bowler to feed off. So it's absolutely critical to. In times of the game where you need to puff your chest out and you can't disappear because you know that Australia are building a partnership or they're slightly ahead of the game, that's where you can't disappear. So it is critical for the bowlers as well.

Turning it to. To the Australian side of things then. Cummins and Lyon both back. Simon?

I believe so. I was at the Test match dinner last night and Pat, whilst he didn't quite give it away, sounds like he's going to be back out there. And Nathan Line made it sound in no uncertain terms that this is his ground. As Trinity Riley said before, leading wicket taker at this venue in Test cricket. And he's got the great Shane Warne covered now, so. And given the heat here and the nature that is a red ball Test during the day, I'd be very surprised if both those two don't play. I guess the only uncertainty now surrounds the makeup of the batting lineup. Does Kawaja come back in? Does Inglis sort of make the. The sort of cut after sort of getting 20 odd at the Gabba? Or does Webster come into play and give them that extra all round option given that Cummins is sort of easing back into it?

So what would you do then?

Look, it's interesting. I wouldn't be changing the batting order up top. I think it's put England on the back foot. We saw that last Test. I've been really impressed with young Jake Weatherall. I think his footwork's been really sharp. I think he's looked to put away the bad boys and naturally aggressive player. I like Travis Head at the top because I just think if he bats for any length of time, the opposition bowlers know they're under pressure. This is his home deck. I'd be loathe to change that because, you know, the other day, none for 120 off 20. That takes all the pressure off Labishane. He becomes a different player, Smith becomes a different player and it just flows on through the innings. So I'm not sure I'd be letting England back into that by changing that up. It would be a tough call on Kawaja because he has been excellent over the last four years, but his last 12 months he's been on the decline and hasn't been anywhere near the same player against pace bowling. So that's the tough one. Do they bat him in the middle order? It's probably not his best spot but you know that's, it's going to be a tough one to call, I don't think. I think English is a very good player, but I could see Webster coming back in. I think he was pretty harsh to miss out in the first place. He's had a really good 12 months, good all around cricketer, very good fielder and I think that's something that has Matty mentioned it before. Australia's fielding compared to England's has been worlds apart in this, this series and it was highlighted at the Gabba given there were so many drop chances by England. His fielding is superb, great catcher, can field anywhere. So I wouldn't be surprised if Webster plays this Test.

So, so if, what would you do with Australia's. Would you leave it as it is, Matt? They're batting lineup and if Cummins and Lyon, who are you taking out?

I mean it's a real selection headache. Right. I, I'd be happy as an England fan if Kaja comes back in, if I'm honest.

Yeah.

And I, I feel that they might do that mainly because it might be his last series, you know, with the injuries he's had, et cetera, et cetera. Do they, do they want to almost give him a run out? Because if he doesn't play now actually does he ever play again? Who knows?

Not going to be sentimental though, are you, when you're two nil up in the Nashes? Surely not.

It's the other side to the Aussies, mate. I've seen it before. No, no, absolutely. They're not going to be sentimental at all. I, I think only they will know how they want to play their cricket. But the, the signs are they want to play a pretty attacking Travis Head coming in, in Perth and doing what he did. It's, it's pretty difficult to say to him, right, okay, you're going to go back down the order. I heard David Warner saying that, you know, Travis Head down the order is only harder. Makes it only harder work for England. I don't necessarily agree because if they can, if they can nick Kwaja off. I agree. Weatheralls looked really organized. He looks like he's, you know, typical guy that's had to wait his, his time to get into a Test team. He's, he, he's walked out to bat and Test cricket now knows his Game knows his scoring options. Looks very, very organized, you know, very good on the short ball, you know, great if if Kwaja then comes in a bit out of form, backs not 100% nick him off early, England will probably feel like they've got a chance. Whereas I think if you ask the England bowlers who would you rather bowl at, they would, they would take Kuaja rather than Travis Head and as Kat says, you know, weather Orton and head back for, for any time at all. They get ahead of the game very, very quickly because neither of them score slowly.

Who do Cummings and Lion come in for then, Stephen? Is it simply Doggett and Nisa Nissan?

Doggett? Yeah. I'd say be surprised.

Bit unlucky on for Nisa isn't is it is.

But that's what makes Australia so dangerous is is the fact that they can change a winning team. We can have all these conversations about, about shuffling a winning team. Usually you would stick to it. The one caveat is that the Pat Cummins is an amazing bowler. I love watching him bowl. He's not played cricket for quite some time. He's come in off the back of a stress fracture. And for all the criticism for England being under prepared and undercooked physically going into this Test series from a bowling perspective, it's going to be hard for him to to get immediately up to speed if England make him bowl spell after spell, which again is something you would hope the England batters will be looking at this and thinking, okay, this guy's a great bowler, but there's no substitute for making your body robust through playing cricket. So you hope that those batters do recognize that making him tired and getting him into later spells will make him be less effective as a bowler. As that goes on.

Where are England's chances to win this then, Steven and do you think they can Will?

I think when I looked at the series as a broader picture, I thought the first two tests were their hardest, especially the Gabba Test match because of the bounce that's on offer. And I looked at this one as their best opportunity as a team with the way that they play, the pitch is generally very good for batting. And if they do manage to get a big first innings lead by making or score. Sorry. By making those adjustments to their batting style that they've spoken about in the press between these games, I think it makes England a really dangerous team this week. So I think there's a realistic possibility that England win this Test match.

Okay. Do you think England are dangerous, Simon?

Oh, they are if they apply Themselves, They've got the talent, there's no doubt about that. We saw it day one in Perth. You know, they were in the driving seat in that test and they only have to apply themselves at the right times for another hour to crack Australia. This test might be a bit harder with someone like Cummins coming back in, but Finney's spot on. He might be underdone. He was underdone last year in the first test in Perth against India and Australia lost. So that's why I think Webster might play, just to give him that little bit of extra insurance with the ball. But, yeah, England can definitely win if they get a big first innings. I don't mean 400, I mean 450 plus. And it's not just the runs. It's making Australia stay out in the field in the heat for four or five sessions. There's plenty of time. These tests aren't going five days. Bat deep in a day two and see what happens to the opposition. They don't do that enough. And if they do that, they'll get success if they do that. But they've got to do it first.

Okay, Matt.

Yeah, look, it's, it's, it's always going to be their best chance. I agree with Finney. I, I also think, you know, beware the wounded animal. They've. They've been written off left, right and center. And this group of players under, under Stokes and McCollum, you know, they don't really know when to lie down and die. It's. It's going to be a hell of a comeback if they can do it. But this, this is the game. It's. It's now or never.

And would you go with Finney that Adelaide is the island, their best opportunity?

Yes, definitely. I, I think, you know, Perth and the Gabba was always going to be, going to be tough. And England will actually rue those, both those test matches because they had opportunities in both. You know, I thought I was gonna be flying out to Brisbane with England 1 nil up after the first per test match and then suddenly turned on its head. And Brisbane, there were, there were times where, as Kat says rightly, if England had applied themselves for an extra half an hour, even not even an hour, they could have got ahead of the game and said, as we spoke about earlier, you make your mistakes once in Test Creek, you can't do it twice. I hope that we're going to see an England team with, with some serious steel. And if they do lose, it's going to take something special from Australia. Or certainly a lot of fight from them. Again, agree with Kat the the ability and the talent in this England dressing room is in abundance. Those players are outstanding cricketers. It's just the mentality that needs to shift the understanding that you are in an Astrid's test match and you have to fight for every inch.

Matt, Stephen Simon, thank you. See you all soon. That's the end of 5 live cricket as well. TMS on air from 5 to 11 on Tuesday night on Sports Extra Play getting underway at half 11.

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