McCullum sacked as Test coach

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It's been announced by the ECB that Brendan McCullum has been sacked as England's Test coach after 4 years in charge, but he will remain in charge of the white ball teams. The England and Wales Cricket Board have released a statement in the last few minutes saying he will stand down. But in his statement, McCullum says, of course I'm gutted not to be continuing, but I respect the decision. Well, I'm joined now by the BBC's chief cricket commentator Jonathan Agnew, our cricket correspondent Stefan Schermeilt, and former England fast bowler Stephen Finn will join me here at Lord's in just a couple of minutes. Uh, Aggers, Steph, here we are, 2 weeks on from Ben Stokes stepping down in the middle of another Test match, and we have the second half of that management team at Stokes and McCullum who's announced that he is stepping down. Stefan, first of all, just give us a bit more detail of what the ECB statement says.

Yeah, yeah, Ellie, like you say, it's another Sunday, isn't it? Another staggering twist in the unraveling of the England team. Stokes made that stunning announcement to step down as captain, and now McCollum's exit, well, it brings a definitive end to the Bazball era. And that quote that you mentioned from the statement that the ECB have released, what Brendan McCollum said, of course I'm gutted not to be continuing, but I respect the decision. So let's be in no doubt here, Brendan McCullum has been sacked as England's Test coach. The director of cricket, Rob Key, he's going to remain in his position. This decision has come around after a couple of weeks of the ECB hierarchy, um, reflecting on the situation surrounding the men's team. Of course, we've had on-field results— England have lost 7 of their past 9 Test matches— and a string of off-field problems as well. And so now we are in a situation where the England men's Test team has no head coach and no captain. They will need both of those by the time the next series against Pakistan begins on the 19th of August.

Well, Jonathan, what did you think when you heard the news for the first time?

Yeah, not really— I mean, not really surprised. I mean, all this began with a bang and it's ended with a bang. I mean, it really has. Um, and it's, you know, you read, you read the ECB stuff and you wonder why they've sacked him. I mean, there's extraordinary things they've said here. He leaves the Test team well set and poised to achieve great things. So why they sacked him? They sacked him because a lot of ill-discipline, as we know. The Ashes, an awful lot was said about that, about on and off the field. And I think off the field is just as important here, the lack of discipline that there has been. And that is, I suspect, has been Richard Gould's primary concern here, because he looks at the cricketing landscape at the moment, particularly of the men's team, and it's like it's been napalmed, you know, the actual image of the image of the men's game is very, very poor, uh, make no bones about that. Uh, and so they have to be seen to be, to be gaining discipline, I think, and taking more, more control of the English game. I think what this does do is this probably hardens up the odds on, um, Brook becoming, uh, the next captain. I, I don't— I just don't see how Brook and McCullum could have worked together, really. Too much of a likeness. Again, that lack of discipline. And bear in mind, you know, Harry Brook clearly is at the center of, of a number of those, uh, those problems. He, he does seem to be playing with more maturity and playing very successfully, albeit in T20 cricket at the moment. This is a massive step up, and I, I, I do struggle to have, to have seen the situation in which McCullum and Brook could have been in charge of the men's Test team at the moment going forward. I, I, I, I can't— I just don't see that. So who will come in? No, no idea at all, but I don't think it'll be somebody as, well, as loose, if you like. I mean, you know, that was very positive at the start of all this. I think it's important to remember that when McCullum and Stokes did take over, English cricket was a real mess. It was in a real mess, and they did revolutionize it, and they won, what, 10 of the first 11 Test matches they played together, and in wonderful, unforgettable ways too. But their problem was that they didn't check it. And it was unsustainable in the end.

Let's bring Stephen Finn in on this. I mean, what are your emotions here, Finny? Because I mean, as Jonathan says, it's been a hell of a ride, hasn't it really? Or certainly the early part of those 4 years were.

Well, those sound like words that Brendan McCullum would use, wouldn't he? A hell of a ride. Um, it's kind of the way he played his cricket and seems to have coached it as well. And like Agus says there, when he came into the job, uh, they'd won 1 test in 17. Um, and the feeling around Test cricket was pretty low, to be honest. Um, and I think that in those first couple of years, they, um, they, they achieved some really commendable, amazing things. Um, they made people believe again, but, but then they just failed to temper what they were doing slightly, um, in order to then win those big series. And I think what has ended up counting against Brendan McCullum, um, in his tenure as coach and, and with what they achieved in the first couple of years is the inability to beat India and Australia both home and away. And that's why I think his contract was due to run until the end of next summer, and that's now been brought forward to now, July 2026. So, uh, it's a shame because you did see in those first couple of years what the team was capable of, um, but it did feel like something was going to give, especially after the way that New Zealand series finished.

I mean, he is staying on as white ball coach, as we've said. England now number 1 in the the T20 rankings after their series victory over India over the last few days. But let's hear what Brendan McCullum had to say after the series defeat to New Zealand just a couple of weeks ago. Aggers asked him whether he wanted to continue as Test coach.

Yeah, of course I do. Look, my commitment to English cricket has never wavered. I firmly believe in the direction that we can get this, uh, get this team to take. And this is a disappointing result because we would love to have been able to get the right result in the series and show some of the improvements that we'd we tried to implement from Australia. I thought Lords was an excellent example of that. The second Test match was clearly difficult, and in this Test match we had our chances whilst not being able to get across the line. But I'm excited about the level of talent which sits within English cricket. I'm very confident in the direction that we need to go and what changes are needed to be made and how we keep improving. And with that, you know, the enthusiasm for the job It doesn't waver.

This was going to be a reset, wasn't it, this series? You know, try and put things right and on track again. You've lost the series, there's been off-the-field stuff. Do you think you have reset and gone forward? You've lost the captain, the most influential player. Where do you think English cricket stands now as opposed to the first day of this series?

I think we've got to admit that we made some mistakes throughout the series and ultimately didn't, didn't get what we came for, which was to a series win. You know, it's— there's been a bit going on off the field. There's been lots where we've had lots of things we've had to deal with off the field. And, you know, some of those things can be, can be quite big distractions. And one thing I was proud of is that the guys were actually able to still galvanize as a unit and stay close as a unit. And, you know, I thought that would give us our best opportunity in the series. We weren't quite able to get there, but there is some good stuff. And, you know, I still believe that we have a firm direction of what we're wanting to do and how we're wanting to play and what we're wanting to achieve. And just because you haven't won doesn't necessarily mean that those things are wrong. I think we will continue to look to improve, we'll continue to look to evolve, continue to look to, whilst having our identity, keep progressing and improving and ultimately become a better cricket team. And I'm excited about what that looks like. And as I say, my affection and enthusiasm for the job hasn't wavered, and I'm excited about what the future holds.

Well, that was Brendan McCullum speaking to Jonathan Agnew after the Test series defeat to New Zealand a couple of weeks ago. I mean, I guess it's interesting to hear that, isn't it? Because you kind of have a picture of how this summer has unfolded so far for the England men's Test team. I mean, I'm sitting here at Lord's, that first Test match won in 2 and a bit days, um, and you thought, okay, well, maybe it's all going to be fine, maybe this, this can carry on and, and sail off into the sunset towards the Ashes next summer. But now thinking about it, should they have, before this summer even started, have said, right, we're going to have a complete reset now, and a reset means a total change of personnel?

Well, I think they hoped they weren't going to have to do that. They wanted Ben Stokes to stay. Let's be honest, he's the most influential member of that team. I think, you know, I think that the two vulnerable men have always been McCullum and Rob Key, who's the managing director, who once again emerges from this with his job intact. Despite signing off the Ashes tour and so on. I mean, I think he really must have been under the spotlight. So, I mean, maybe he's still in credit for having appointed Stokes and McCullum, you know, quite radical appointments in the first place. But no, they needed— I think they needed to see that there was going to be a change. Lord's was a strange game, it was a poor pitch, New Zealand had had very little cricket. Then, as we know, there was the drinking episode after that. So all the debutants coming in for the Oval, Worthingham lost, and then of course, uh, all the shenanigans a couple of weeks ago at Trent Bridge. It has not been the reset that English cricket needed, uh, and I think, I think, I think, I think they generously gave everybody a chance. I think that Richard Gould, uh, the chief executive, you know, he, he tried to show faith in, in what he had, in the structure that he had, and it didn't work.

Steph, do you think that Rob Key's position is secure now, or could we see more changes?

I do think Rob Key's position is secure, but that is not what I've thought for the past couple of weeks. So what we've been hearing from the very top of the ECB ever since, um, England lost that series against New Zealand is that they've been reflecting on the situation around the England men's team. And to me, it felt like strangely McCullum was perhaps, um, in a more secure position. And I suppose it goes back really to that period after the Ashes when the ECB had a chance to make a change. And as Aga's just mentioned, it seemed at that point that Stokes was the man who was more secure in his position as captain, purely because he's Ben Stokes and he's so hard to replace. England are going to find that out in the coming months and years. But England didn't make a change. They backed Key and McCullum thinking that they could turn things around. And as you said, at Lord's we thought they had. Then it all unraveled because— or starting with incident in the nightclub involving Stokes and Gus Atkinson, and that seemed to be pretty much on Keyes' watch. There was a bit of confusion over the curfew, how that was communicated, what the players thought they should be doing when and where, and that is the responsible— responsibility of the director of cricket. So when England lost against New Zealand, and that is their first home test series defeat in a series of 3 matches or more since 2012— England just don't lose home series like that very often. It felt like Key was the most vulnerable. Instead, it feels like that maybe Key has made the decision to remove McCullum, and that is helping him stay in his job. And I do wonder, you know, how has that conversation gone down? Brendan, we don't want you to be Test coach, but do you fancy staying on with the white ball team?

Was this, was this inevitable, Finney? Do you think that he would go when, when Stokes had gone, or could he have carried on with potentially Harry Brook as the Test captain, or, or was— did one inevitably follow the other?

I think had there been someone other than Harry Brook— so Harry Brook feels like the next England captain across all formats now. Um, I think he's really captained well, and, and the way that he's led the team in this T20 World Cup— sorry, in the, uh, in the T20 World Cup, and then, um, in this India series that they've, um, that they've just been playing to number 1 in the world, that their team is now number 1 in the world in T20 cricket. And he's captained smartly and has won almost, I think, 90% of the games that he's captained, and he's captained 30 games in the T20 format. So, um, yeah, I think that without other options, having McCullum and Brook together didn't feel like the next step forward for the Test team. Um, and as it happens, without the lack of other options, Brendan McCullum is the one who's, um, who's ended up having to make way there, which, um, yeah, It's been a weird few weeks.

It's been such a weird few weeks. And you know, one of the things that I've enjoyed so much in the last couple of weeks is focusing on the Women's, um, T20 World Cup, you know, the final here at Lord's, this Test match that we're watching here at Lord's. And we are, we're watching, Steph, today and tomorrow, the last two days of two of the greatest players to play the women's game, Heather Knight, Tammy Beaumont, completely overshadowed now by this. And I mean, this is annoying me quite a lot, I've got to say, Steph. But, but, you know, what is about the timing of these announcements.

Yeah, and there's— putting Ben Stokes's retirement to one side for a second, it, it was the, the fallout of what happened, um, in the nightclub when that curfew was broken that really, um, angered the people at the very top of the ECB because that came— the fallout of that came at the start of the Women's T20 World Cup, and then all of the attention was on the men's team. What would happen with Ben Stokes and Gus Atkinson particularly? You know, Stokes not playing in the second test against New Zealand, then coming back for the third test and then retiring. And you're right, there is huge, significant, historic goings-on in the women's game at the moment that the ECB would have wanting to be, be celebrating. And particularly in the case of Heather Knight and Tammy Beaumont, they've got a wonderful moment coming over the next couple of days. So I do think that the timing of this announcement is slightly strange. It's also in between white ball series, one only finished yesterday against India. England player one day at Edgbaston on Tuesday with McCullum in charge. But it's just one of those things that as soon as McCullum knew that he was no longer going to be the Test coach, it would have leaked out. They just would not have been able to control, um, that coming out to, to the media and to the rest of us. But you're right, in what should have been a really, um, significant period for the England women's team, news from the men has completely overshadowed them.

And we've seen quite a lot of the, um, of the, of the big beasts, as it were, of the press pack who are turning up this afternoon Lords, having not been here for, for the first few days of this Women's Test match. I mean, Jonathan, for this team at the moment, this, this Test team, I mean, it's just all a bit of a shambles, isn't it, really? No captain, no coach. Um, what have we got now, about another couple of months or so until the series starts against Pakistan? There's a lot of sorting out to do.

Well, I'll be very interested to see who they appoint as coach. I mean, at the moment, you know, all the really top ones seem to be very comfortably positioned with, with just the nice pickings of franchise cricket that pays them well and means they're not away from home for months. And I don't think there's the scrutiny either that the England coach has. I mean, he really is under the spotlight, like the England captain. And that's where I still very much have my reservations about Harry Brook, um, but more temperamentally, because, because the England cricket captain has to be a statesman. And that's not sounding pompous or old-fashioned, but it just happens to be a fact that the English cricket captain has to deal with more things than just changing the bowling. You know, we go to places that can be quite volatile, and you do have to command a bit of a presence. And I'm not convinced about Brook in that regard at the moment, but he can convince me, and I hope that he does. But as far as the rest of it, well, you know, you're playing for England, you get on and you play. And I think looking back, and we've sort of touched on this already, But looking back at these last 4 years, the disappointment for me has been the complacency, the arrogance, the determination, stubbornness not to listen to outside voices, not to listen to people saying, "Look, come on, you can't carry on playing like this," and to listen to nonsense like, "Oh, I didn't mind being caught on the boundary on 98 at Lord's in an Ashes Test match," or the nonsense like, "They could score as many as they like, we'll chase them down." You know, I'm not having a go at Ben Duckett necessarily, but there's a lot of nonsense spoken. You think, come on, if that really is the mantra in the England dressing room, this is going to blow up. Listen to some common sense. Listen to people who, you know, are just not being negative, they're just trying to in fact be positive and say this is— a lot of what you're doing is really good, but it's unsustainable like this. You cannot play one-dimensional Test cricket in which you just attack, attack, attack. We don't play for draws was another one, wasn't it? You think, what? It has to be more mature than that, has to be more professional than that, and it had its opportunity to do that. I think winning 3-0 in Pakistan was incredible. No one has ever gone there and done that, and that for me is probably bad ball's biggest moment, to go there and to do that. But that was the point in which I said, right, how are we now going to work out where we are and how we're going to actually, you know, make us more sustainable?

Who's your money on, Finny? Would Andy Flower be— I mean, he seems to be the name I've heard most mentioned, and I think Michael Vaughan was talking about this at Trent Bridge as well and say if you've got a combination of Harry Brook, because we haven't— there isn't really anyone else to choose as the Test captain, arguably, at the moment. Is Andy Flower the right man? I mean, he's a very different style of coach from Brendan McCullum, or certainly was, wasn't he, in the early, you know, kind of around the time that you were playing?

He is, but I think you do need that difference in opinions and the ability to have a debate and disagree but then come out of it both on the same page moving forward. And I think by the sounds of it, I've not been coached by Andy Flower since he was England coach, but he's softened just slightly from the person that he was then to the one he is now. And clearly going around playing franchise cricket or coaching in franchise cricket would do that to you. But I agree with Aggers, I think you would need a very fat and empty checkbook to be able to go to Andy Flower and say, write a number down and tell us how much it's going to take, because the scrutiny is just that level on top of what you experience, I think, in franchise cricket. So Andy Flower, I would imagine, would be the top target, but I think it's highly unlikely that he takes the job. And starting a new franchise in the London Spirit here and all of that it takes to build that up, I'd be surprised. Jonathan Trott is someone that I think to keep an eye on because he is shaped and formed in the mold of Andy Flower, both as a player and in the way that he's coached. He's had to deal with quite a volatile situation by coaching Afghanistan for the last 4 or 5 years, and I think that that would grow you up as a coach quite quickly, to be able to be dealing with, with everything politically and funding-wise from that perspective, to still go out and compete in World Cups as Afghanistan have done so I think reflects well on him. So he's someone that is coaching, I think, down at Glamorgan as a batting coach at the moment, but with head coaching international cricket experience, an excellent Test player, and more of the Flower mold. So, um, he's someone that I think I keep an eye on.

Steph, any, any, um, rumors that are hitting your inbox at the moment?

Just before we go into that, can we just get Finney's opinion? I just wonder if it's sending a shiver down his spine just thinking about Andy Flower coming back to, to English cricket with the way that he used to rule the dressing room with an iron fist. How are you feeling about that? Vinnie?

Well, he's not coaching me unless he's coming in to coach me as, uh, on, on TMS. We could ask, um, we could ask. Yeah, he'd instill some discipline in me.

Uh, and Andy Flower will be the name on everyone's, on, on lips. And, and Finney's right in terms of whether or not he can be lured back from the franchise world. What I think is interesting is the split in the jobs once more, because by the time Andy Flower finished his spell as England coach, he was only the Test coach, um, then as well. So it wouldn't be taking the entire 3 format job. Maybe that's enough to lure him back. Um, Richard Dawson is someone that's been touted for, um, international— an international job. He's the Glamorgan head coach. He's done a really good job there. Gareth Batty has won the county championship numerous times with Surrey. Ryan Campbell, he's an Australian, but he's up at Durham. He has coached all around the world, is a very impressive guy. He's been impressive up there at Durham. Andrew Flintoff, we haven't mentioned him yet, have we? He's the England Lions head coach, um, but he has said before that he doesn't want to be the coach of the senior team. And I'm just going to throw a delicious name out there who is also working in English cricket at the moment: Darren Lehmann, the former Australia coach, is the Northamptonshire head coach. I wonder if he'd fancy a crack at being England head coach and taking on the Aussies.

Well, Justin Langer is also a name that I've heard mentioned in and around and spoke passionately throughout the Ashes, didn't he, about what he felt England could do a lot better. Um, has experience with Australia clearly in all formats of the game. So another name to keep an eye on.

Whoever it is, it will be very spicy. It will, but it has to be different, doesn't it? And I think— and is it right to try and make it completely different? I mean, with the group of players that you've got who've grown up under Bazball— because I think that's also worth remembering, that Bazball started with a team of players who had been around the team such a long time, you know, Broad, Anderson, Bairstow, the like— have all retired in the meantime. Joe Root, really the only survivor of that pre-Bazball era now. Do you think that it needs to completely reset to where we were at the end of the Ashes in 2021-22?

No, no, the players, the, the players who are likely to be picked, uh, in the forthcoming series against, against Pakistan, yes, they had, they have had a taste of, of McCullum, and they need to keep that positivity, you know. They need to keep a lot of, a lot of it was really good. A lot of it was really very good indeed, and that's got to keep going in the right direction. Where it failed was the lack of accountability, the lack of discipline on and off the field, and the lack of the check to say, "No, hang on a minute, this is getting out of hand." And we do need to fight for draws, because actually hard-fought, earned draws in cricket are good. And we need to— there needs to be that check. But I hope that going forward, those same players will keep much of the positivity that they've had.

Do you think there is any question, Steph, about the fact that we're now in this situation where, you know, you could have that overlap? So McCullum coaching the white ball team, you know, going into an ODI series which starts on Tuesday at Edgbaston. Um, you've got a ODI World Cup at the end of next year as well, but you've got players playing across both— across all formats. So Harry Brook potentially as England captain in the red ball team, also playing in the white ball team, are you gonna— is there a danger that you're gonna get mixed messages and everyone's gonna get incredibly confused and you don't know who to listen to?

I think it's a really good question because it's a really difficult problem to solve in that it's so hard for one person, one head coach, to be across all three formats. But when England have tried it it hasn't worked. One of the, one of the formats has, has suffered. And one of the reasons really that Brendan McCullum ended up taking on the white ball job when Matthew Mott was sacked 2 years ago is that McCullum was such a huge presence in English cricket by that point, and the Test team were doing pretty well, that it just felt like anyone else who'd come into to be the white ball coach would have just been in McCullum's shadow. And so whoever's going to be the Test coach has got to be able to work alongside Brendan McCullum, to not be, um, concerned by the size of his personality, or to not be affected by what McCullum calls an informal, um, style that he employs. And so yeah, maybe the mixed messaging is, is a good point in terms of if we're going to have a white ball, white ball coach who is informal, and then there are a lot of players who are coming back to work for a Test coach who is going to be different to McCullum. It's a really good point. And the other point that you made, Ali, which is spot on, is that when McCullum came in, he liberated a group of cricketers that had been losing a lot. They'd been beaten down by COVID and they just needed freeing up. Um, Jonny Bairstow, Chris Woakes, Mark Wood, Jimmy Anderson, Stuart Broad— the list goes on. Now, when McCullum has regenerated a team with some younger players who've been needed to be taught really how to play Test cricket, he hasn't been able to do that. It's no coincidence that now a white ball team that is full of quite experienced players— Joss Butler, Liam Dawson, Joffa Archer— again, just full of those cricketers that have been around a long time. He is freeing those guys up and they are having good results. Now England need to find someone to nurture this young team and shape them into the— for the rigors and demands and constantly changing challenges of Test cricket.

I tell you what, thank you all so much for coming on and talking about this. Um, Finney is here with me at Lord's. Um, Steph, I think you were in the swimming pool with the kids when the call came through.

Uh, just loading them into the car, getting ready to take them to the swimming pool, so they had to be dragged out of the, the car. Um, at the moment, Ellie, as you know, my other half is editing this show, so I've had to call her mum in to look after the kids. Tomorrow it's down to Edgbaston because the, the first One Day starts on Tuesday. One poor victim England player is going to be put up to speak to us tomorrow, and they're going to be getting asked a lot of questions about Brendan McCullum, maybe Baz himself, who knows.

And Jonathan, what were you supposed to be doing with your Sunday afternoon?

It was going to be, uh, well, it's still going to be a big moment. Um, the, the gleaming pizza oven was going to be used and is still going to be used for the first time. I had a go at trying to sort that dough out this morning. I sent a photograph to Emma, my wife, and she said, what that? And I said, I don't know. Uh, so how, how on earth you get that dough from being like a blob into something that looks beautifully circular, I don't know. But I can guarantee it won't look like that in about 2 hours' time.

Ali, I'll just jump in here as well, because me and Agus have been speaking quite a lot recently about what might happen in English cricket and all the things that are going on. And the other day I phoned him up. I can't remember what I said I was doing, but Agus told me that he was about to build his garden furniture, and he was, he was a bit worried about, you know, putting it all together. I think someone had forgotten the umbrella and everything. Yeah, and I got a picture at the end of the day of the sofa beautifully built, the umbrella over it, and a very pleased Agus.

The trouble is, as always with these things, there were 2 bolts left over. I still don't know, I still don't know where they're supposed to have gone.

I thought this was going to be some analogy about the state of the England men's cricket team, but, um, but maybe it still is. A couple of bolts missing still.

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Well, now let's hear from the ECB Chief Executive Richard Gould. He's been speaking to Alison Mitchell.

Well, let's talk about Brendan McCullum. He's no longer the men's test head coach. Whose decision has that been?

Yeah, that's a decision that, that gets pushed through myself and with Rob Key, and we also have a performance committee and the board, but myself and Rob being the main decision makers in that. And, you know, these are difficult decisions because Brendon has been the head coach of the Test team for over 4 years now. May, when he arrived, just over 4 years ago, and I think we've seen an incredible time with the England men's Test team in terms of what they've done, the way they've captured the imagination of the public, tried to play in a, in a different way with considerable success as well. But unfortunately, over the last 6-9 months, the results haven't been where we'd want them to be, and we just think now is the right time for a change because we've got an Ashes series again here. This time next year, we'll be in the middle of an Ashes series and we've got, we've got 10 tests leading up to that and we would like to try and make the changes now or as quickly as we can to ensure that we're in the best place possible.

When was the decision made and when was Brendan informed of it?

Yeah, we've been having discussions with Brendan specifically on this for the last 24-36 hours. Prior to that, we know we'd had some open discussions in terms of of splitting the roles and how it could look like. You know, Brendan is disappointed, wanted to carry on in the job, but is also a consummate professional, a really good person, and has very strong ambitions still for the England team. As we see, you know, from last— from good result last night, going number 1 ranked T20 team in the world. You know, he is clearly one of the best coaches in the world. And our job now is to find another to complement him alongside him looking after the men's Test team.

You say the time's right now. Why was the time not right after the Ashes? Because there's been an awful lot that has unravelled since then with Ben Stokes retiring as well and leaving the game. Is this a recognition that actually this is a move that should have been made much earlier?

Well, I would contest no, because certainly I wanted to keep the management team in place. I think we saw with the Women's Ashes 18 months ago when we had some difficult times in there that you sometimes need to make changes sooner rather than later. But what we saw immediately after the Ashes in terms of a semi-final of the T20 World Cup and the white-ball squad coming together in the way that it did and the determination to learn lessons from the Ashes. You know, in previous years, maybe you do a clean sweep and you lose some of the lessons. So we were adamant that we wanted to try and learn those lessons, and we were fortunate enough to have a group of coaches and cricket leaders that were determined to get revenge and learn those lessons and to move on. But sadly, you know, in terms of New Zealand and the way that that test series ended up, we didn't get the results, and we are in a results-based business, and it's the results ultimately that determine what happened.

And no bigger results than the Ashes. And of the, the 3 key figures of that campaign then, Ben Stokes, Brendan McCullum, both gone. Why does Rob Key remain?

Rob Key remains because he is a very significant leader within the organisation. He's got lots of experience, and we always want to be able to work as much as we can in terms of the long term. You know, as you rightly point out, that we are, you know, we know that we've got a new captain to select, we now know that we've got a new Test coach to select, and we want to, we want to, we want to be able to do that from a position of stability. We recently brought on Marcus North as the national selector, and, you know, behind those individuals is a very large and competent and capable team that sits there, whether it's analysts, whether it's medical staff, performance directors. And so, you know, we've got a solid, stable team, and we just want to make sure that we, uh, the way we make the changes in the right areas.

Does Rob Key have your backing into the future then?

Of course, yeah, of course. I mean, that, uh, you know, otherwise, uh, decisions would have gone the other way. And, you know, these are, these are two-way conversations that happen between myself and Rob and Brendan and others on a regular basis. You know, when you're working in, in high-performance sport, you always know that there is, uh, you know, there is potentially a time limit on, on, on your, on your ability to continue doing the job. And, you know, your aim is to try and do as many good things as you can in that time that you've got available.

I remember the briefing that you gave in, in March. We gathered here at the ECB offices, and you and Rob Key talked about wanting the team, but specifically Brendan McCullum, to evolve as a coach. Was that a miscalculation?

No, I don't think so at all, and I think Brendan is a better coach now than he was this time last year. For the Test side? Not for the Test side because the results have not gone our way, but But, you know, everybody needs to always learn and adapt every day, every month. I know I do. And, you know, when you're working in high-performance environments, that's what you see and that's what happens.

Do you have any regrets over Ben Stokes' situation, the way that was handled and ultimately his resignation, his retirement? How did that unfold from your perspective?

Ben is— Ben will go, I think, into history books as one of our best ever players, best ever captains. He did the job for a very long time under very intense pressure, and I am personally grateful for him, and I know that supporters, cricket supporters across the country country are grateful for everything that he's done. But as we've seen, great players, they come to an end. Heather Knight unfortunately will be retiring at the end of this Test match. Tammy Beaumont also retiring. Unfortunately, it does get to the time when people feel that they need to move on. Our job, I think, in sports administration is to try and make sure that we keep the best players on the pitch for as long as possible, and if they go out at a moment of their choosing then that's not a bad place to be.

Do you feel what happened around the celebrations post-Lawrence, that that played into Stokes' decision to ultimately step down when he did?

I don't know. I don't think so personally. I think this was something that he's been thinking about for a while. He said it himself. But, you know, these are sometimes complicated situations. What I'm pleased though is that he was able to decide to leave at a moment and a time of his choosing, and not many sportsmen get to do that, or sportswomen. You know, often it's the call from the selector that ends your career, and I'm just delighted that whether it's Ben or Tammy or Heather, three genuine giants of our game have had the opportunity to make make the decisions themselves.

You have got to now find a new head coach for the Test team as well as a new captain. What comes first?

Uh, coach. Yeah, very much in terms of coach, because the coach will have their own views, strong views no doubt, and work with Rob Key and Marcus North to assess all of the options and then go from there.

Would that be a full open recruitment process? Interviews, that type of thing, advertisements? Is it an advertised position?

Well, it's advertised. People know that it's available as of today, but in terms of this process, it will be a targeted selection process. We often do a lot of work in terms of planning as to succession, etc., and, you know, we're no different. I will always keep a shortlist going of coaches and various other positions, and And in truth, this position is probably one where the shortlist is no more than 6 to 10 names globally.

Anyone who has been approached already?

Of a diverse nature. In terms of conversations, they will start to happen now, and Rob Kee will be leading on those. We don't— did not want to start a process until we'd had good, honest conversations with Brendan, because that wouldn't seem right. And so those things are in train now.

And of course, having had a coach of Brendon's skill set, mindset, the way he ran the team, what type of coach do you want to take the Test team forward now?

Well, I think that's when you look at the skills that we've got and the talents that we've got within the team, it is, you know, it is a team that has been playing, it's been playing relatively aggressive cricket but there are always options for the pattern of play to change depending on what the coach wants and where the coach believes those skill sets are. So look, it's going to have to be an individual that complements the skill sets that we've got within the players and can bring the very best out of them.

The timing of this announcement. A lot of fans jumping on social media suggesting why now in the middle of a women's Test match when a lot of the limelight even for the T20 World Cup was overshadowed by the events around the men's Trent Bridge Test match. Was there any consideration given as to when this was announced and why now today?

Certainly consideration, particularly with Heather's departure last night, you know, an England semi-final event last night, Wimbledon's final going on today, and the fact that our men's team also assembled for a white-ball series tomorrow at Edgbaston. So, you know, the timing is never ideal. The focus that we've been putting and seeing on the women's game over the last 3 to 4 weeks during the Women's World Cup has been extraordinary. You know, a quarter of a million game, people coming through the gates, viewing figures have been really strong. I think it was 400,000 on Sky last Sunday for the semi-final, and here where MCC have done an amazing job with 30,000 tickets sold. You know, I, I think the, the, the women's game in England is stronger than it's ever been, and having just returned from an ICC conference in Edinburgh, you can see every other member country is looking at the the level of excitement and investment that we've got going into our women's game, and they're slightly envious, and so they should be, because women's cricket is on the march.

And finally then, do you expect to have a head coach or want to have a head coach installed in time for the first Pakistan Test, or might we see an interim?

I think we would like to see a coach installed for that. You know, clearly, you know, the individuals that will be within our shortlist will have other commitments, etc. You know, they may be international cricket, they they may be county cricket, they may be franchise cricket, and we'll need to work through those. But ideally yes, but alternatively an interim solution could be in place if that allows us to get to the best possible decision later on down the line.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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