New Zealand dominant in decider at Trent Bridge

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

So we had to look back here on the third day of the Test match between England and New Zealand at Trent Bridge, and it's been a day that has definitely belonged to New Zealand. England started it in a strong position, really, at 223 for 2, where they contrived to be bowled out for 354, conceding a sizable lead of 84. And then, after a little burst, they picked up a couple of early wickets. But Rachin Ravindra and Daryl Mitchell have got New Zealand into a terrific position— 120 for 3 at the close, a lead of 204 on a pitch that has really started to show signs of movement, danger, and peril for the batters. I'm delighted to say I'm joined by Sir Alistair Kirk, Michael Vaughan, and Jonathan Agnew to look back on the day. And let's start at the very beginning, Jonathan. England's two overnight batters would have been not just dreaming but genuinely expecting that they could get England into a position to get to 448 and beyond to give themselves—

well, I think all the talk up here was 500, 600, and they're going to bat on. And there was always that sort of cautionary tone of, well, hang on a minute, they're still over 200 behind, uh, you know. But it just felt yesterday that all the momentum was with England, that they were just going to carry on. But then 13 balls, of course, that had gone. Because both those two batsmen have been dismissed, Root and Bethell. And Brook apart, you know, I, I have to be quite critical of the batting. I've got to say, I don't think— I think there are one or two balls that, that, that did account for, for wickets, but not, not that many. We've got the same issue again with batsmen being wary of the wicketkeeper standing up to the, to the wicket, to the impact that that has had. Um, but that's a chastening day for England, that really is. Yeah, that's You know, New Zealand here in a fantastic position. They lead by 204, they've got 7 wickets left on a pitch that is, yes, it is, it is, it is increasingly misbehaving. But that is not the day that England would have planned at all. And, uh, well, they're facing defeat at the moment. I mean, you can always turn around again, but that's, that's, that's New Zealand's day.

Is it time to worry, Michael Vaughan, about Joe Root? Because it's a third LBW on an umpire's call we've had, and The New Zealanders got a very clear plan. They're keeping him and Brook tight in their crease and they're getting them out LBW, or at least keeping them quiet.

Yeah, I mean, Joe Root, I'm sure I'll work it out, but I just always watch this England side and when Joe Root gets out in a certain way on a consistent basis, and it's not been often, and this last, what, few innings, Matt Henry at the Oval and now Nathan Smith here, um, New Zealand have found a way, as did Australia in Brisbane with this keeper-up tactic to 80-odd miles an hour, quite skillful seamer in Niesen. Now we've got Smith, we've had Henry, we've got Volks. I just know, I've watched England enough that it sends a shudder down the England dressing room when Joe Root gets out. You know, this England batting lineup has got very good players, but under Baz McCullum in this England environment for 4 years now, they've only batted over 150 in overs twice. In the first. That's 48 attempts. So I sort of— I look back to this morning, I arrived like I just said, and I think most of us, right, well, the pitch was pure yesterday, I'm sure it'll deteriorate a little bit, and England will bat the day. They should be able to bat, you know, with 8 wickets in hand on that pitch against this New Zealand attack. You fancy that they bat the day and have a 100-run lead by the end of it. But actually, having seen Joe Root get out and then Jacob Bethell, I actually said to myself, why was I so confident When I looked at the stats of information that this team have delivered for 4 years, when they only bat twice in 48 attempts over 115 overs, and to get 500, 550, which we all thought they were going to do on this pitch, um, the history books of stats and information tells you that it wasn't going to be possible. You have to give New Zealand a huge amount of credit. You know, last week England were depleted, this week New Zealand are depleted, but they found a way, and they found a way with skill, they found a way with determination. Yesterday England dominated the day and I, I thought that would be it from New Zealand, but they found a way of finding a real kind of mindset of fight and skill, and they're the favorites to win the Test match from here.

That lower middle order, Alistair Cook played in a side which had a very strong lower middle order, 6, 7, and then an 8 and a 9 sometimes with Swan and Broad that were scoring runs, and there's no sense of permanence in that part of England's batting order, and it's a lot seems to depend on Harry Brook to keep things going. He couldn't quite keep it going all the way through to a century today, got another 58, but was undone by a good bit of bowling from folks. Were you surprised by how what is actually New Zealand's third string, Alistair, was able to bowl on this pitch?

Well, sometimes the captain, it's better being lucky than good, and I think Tom Latham, with the, the unfortunate, um, withdrawal of Blair Tickner with the the blow, which are archer nasty ball. But you ask every England batsman who they would rather face, it would have been Tickner rather than Foulkes, who's come off. And he's just found that perfect area of control. 8 to 1 man. Now the keeper comes up, he just bashes away. And he found a crack where it did all sorts occasionally, like some odd balls. You know, Harry Brook missed one by about, I reckon, 4 or 5 inches on 40-odd. And now that played doubt in England's mind. Then the odd one nipping back. It's a very simple ploy there, straight through fields, and England weren't good enough. Actually, I thought the lower order stuck around. We've seen quite a lot of the lower order, um, in with this team under McCullum, just backing away and trying to score as many runs as quickly as they can. Actually, Archer, Atkinson, they hung around really, you know, desperate to get as many runs as they can because suddenly runs became really valuable because we thought it was going to be a low-scoring game. And, and they were— they— so I can't blame them. I can't blame them. You're blaming the— you have to blame the top 7, because that's what it does. They're not— they haven't gone on to get that. The pitch was changed a lot more than I thought it did, but it still wasn't a pitch I think you would get out on. And then when England bowled it— not get out, that's not right— would have been as difficult as it was. Have New Zealand found something in that pitch that England couldn't do apart from, you know, 10 overs or so? Yeah, this evening Archer's bowling.

Stokes bowled again, clean bowled. It's happening regularly, isn't it? Yeah, and a big booming drive at a ball that wasn't there for it. Um, he's getting this habit of walking off as if he's been burgled, and that he's had the most unplayable delivery in the history of the game. Well, that wasn't— that was just a really poor shot selection. It just came back a little bit at him, but you know, but bowler's entitled to that. But massive gap, booming drive, and he's getting bowled too often. And I don't know how many times you two have been clean bowled in your careers, or what percentage, put it that way. Um, but Stokes's percentage of being bowled now in recent times is far too high.

Well, Well, if you actually look at the big drive that Ben played on a few occasions, he got dropped at gully by Devon Conway. Should have been out to the big drive. He edged one past gully that went in the air, could have been caught if it had obviously gone to hand. And then he plays the big drive to a length ball. He's clearly in that kind of mindset at the minute. Look, he played well for Durham last week being ultra-aggressive, but guess what he was doing? He was dancing down because the keeper wasn't stood up. The keeper stood up, I'm telling you now, and they'll hate me for saying it, they have an issue. They have an issue with this skill set and this, this tactic that's been produced against them. Now they need to be coached, or coaching themselves to play it better, because in the second innings, guess what's going to happen? The keeper will be stood up. Guess what will happen against Pakistan? Mohammad Abbas will probably play. And guess what will happen? The keeper was stood up. In a year's time, Australia—

but it's not rocket science. Why is it suddenly happening? I mean, Tom Cartwright and dear old Derek Shackleton were doing this in the, in the 1960s.

It's slightly concerning when we're hearing the likes of Shackleton and Cartwright.

Exactly.

But what's going on? I mean, they say it's not rocket science, it's not something that's new. Why, why suddenly?

Modern era of the game, and, you know, a lot of these players, right, for the real great players— Joe Root, Kane Williamson— they try and put the percentages back in their favor. So by coming out the crease to seam bowlers who are bowling 85 miles an hour, they're not worried about the short ball. What they're worried about— LBW. You come out your crease, you get outside the line, you can't be out LBW. How are you going to get out? Now they've gone, uh-uh, keep her up, you've got to go back in your crease. Guess what we've brought into the equation? The LBW, extra covers in place, midwicket's in place, mid-on and mid-off quite tight. You're looking down as a batter going, where am I going to score? So you really have to get quite a bad ball to score a boundary when the keeper stood up. And when you've got real consistency in Nathan Smith, Matt Henry, Michael Nysa, now Folks, you're going plugging away. Yeah, and they're just hammering that fourth stump line. They know they're not going to go for too many runs, and the runs that you do score off them, if it's a good ball, you're opening the blade of the bat to that cover point gap, or you're coming across your front pad to go square the wicket on the onside. It's a brilliant tactic. You've still got to deliver it. Now England have got to find a way. So Marcus, the batting coach, Baz McCullum, his team of coaches have got to get the batters together. They have to find a solution, because if they don't find a solution, uh, they're going to lose this series, and they'll be challenged against Pakistan. South Africa probably will do something similar. It's not going to go away. It's always going to arrive, and it's always going to be the target of this England batting unit.

The best, the best batsman are problem solvers, and Joe Root will solve this problem because that's what he's done over, you know, 13, 14 years. And there's been other periods where he's had little issues, and he'll overcome them quicker than the best players. You know, the reason it's working for Joe, for New Zealand, is working against Joe at the minute because he's not doing anything differently apart from staying a bit close to the stump. So when he was a bit further down, he'd miss the ball, hit his pad, and exactly the same ball, but because the ball had further to to travel and it'll nip. It would go down and miss leg stump. That's the reason for Joe. I have no doubt, you know, the second leading run scorer ever.

What would you do if you were Joe Root? What would you advise?

I would just be making sure that I hit more of those than I did. Just get into your mind, just hitting. Whether I would actually come a little bit more leg side of the ball, I would. I'll just come a little bit leg side of the ball. He was then worried, I reckon, that he would then be hit in line, but I'll trust myself. The reason he's so good is he doesn't miss them very often. He's, he's been LBW, what's it, 6 times in the last 8 innings or so. It's now been 1,000 balls, now it's 100 balls. But these, these little things creep in in longevity, and no matter how good you are, you do it. So just, just really realign yourself a little bit, I would, for Joe, and just stay a little bit leg side of the ball and trust yourself that you'll be fine.

So I know Michael's got to go, but so we're talking technology and wobble seam, are they the two sort of game changers here?

Yeah, I mean, technology is obviously a little bit harder. But, you know, the wobble seam is a good skill. You know, we've seen so many demos on the television about the wobble seam, but, you know, the skill sets from Volts and particularly Smith that just seem to be able to get the ball to snip, and it's going quickly. You know, the one thing I'll say about Joe Root, he's always getting beaten on the inside edge at the minute. You know, he's not getting beaten on the outside edge. So Alistair's right, if he could just stay a little bit leg side of the ball, so if he's then beaten on the inside edge, it's probably going to go down the leg side. I've not seen Joe play and miss many from when the keeper stood up to Matt Henry to Smith to Vox. I've not seen him play missit balls outside off stump, so I wouldn't be worried about that one at the minute if I was Joe. I'd be worried about that one that's nipping back onto the stumps.

Um, what I don't understand is how Daryl Mitchell was able to bat perfectly comfortably with the keepers up to the stumps. Um, what, what's he doing differently from what Joe hitting the ball and Harry Brook?

He's good as well.

Well, put very simply, yes, but there's two things.

How?

There's two things. The actual New Zealand bowlers are different style of bowlers, as in a bit skiddier. Matt Henry's a skiddy bowler where actually, I'm going to use Atkinson, Archer, Tarn, Tarn's slightly different, but Atkinson, Archer, hit the pitch bowlers. And Darren Mitchell's very open, so he's a very open stance player, so he gets his leg out of the way. That will be less of an issue to him. Are we crying out for an English seamer who bowls 80 miles an hour?

It does rather sound like it, doesn't it? Because ironically, this is how England have been undone, both in Australia— we've talked about before with Boland and Nysa— and now here with Australia, with New Zealand's, like I said, almost third string in some cases. And it all looks incredibly simple.

Isn't it great? Is it great though, the way the game does revolve? And I talked about Shackleton and Carr, right, with a slightly tongue-in-cheek, but That's what they were doing, you know, 70, 70, 60, 70 years ago.

Did they cause problems?

Well, I guess so, yeah. But there wasn't the technology. They had uncovered pitches, so there might have been the movement. They didn't have technology and they didn't have wobbling. And that's— both of those have made a difference to this, haven't they?

Yeah. And they played on uncovered wickets. But it's great.

And—

but that's what the challenge of cricket throws at you, doesn't it? And that's why it's so hard. You never conquer it. We're talking about Joe Root, who is England's best batsman. He's up right up there, the best the world has ever seen. And yet this creeps into anyone's games, and he'll have to find a way. And I have no doubt he will find a way.

The question for me— I'm taking over, Dan, sorry— but I've got a question because it caught my attention yesterday when whoever was being interviewed by— from the England captain, who it was now— but so it was Ben Duckett, wasn't it? They have a name for Joe Root, sort of England's best ever or England's best. They have like a title for him. So when he gets out, oh no, best player ever is gone. Do you think that's got any sort of impact on it?

I don't think so, no. I think, I mean, the one thing it might do, it's comforting, isn't it, watching when you know he's out there? Because, you know, most of the time he delivers. He averages 50 in Test cricket for 160 Test matches. He's going to score 100 runs a Test match.

So the rest of them, oh no, what's that noise? Oh, Joe's out. Oh no.

Well, I think you will have that feeling, well, no, but I don't think that's I don't think you walk out the bat because in any different frame of mind.

I mean, there are some, some quite dominant personalities in that lineup, so I imagine Harry Brook probably thinks that he can handle this. Yes, you'd imagine Ben Stokes would think that. I think there is a worry about Jamie Smith because his form started well at the County Championship this season, but we're seeing familiar failings, and today's dismissal was not a good one. It was a ball that didn't do anything and he drove at it loosely. And no, it wasn't brilliant behind the stumps. So just a Wrap up on England's innings. Nathan Smith was a leading wicket-taker with 4 for 91, Zak Folkes 3 for 35, but also Willow Roark bowled well and very differently to pick up his 3 for 53. Then New Zealand came out to bat with a surprising lead of 84. The game has changed yet again from one side to the other, and it looked like it might change back towards England when Archer picked up two early wickets. Leitham in the first over. Latham and Conway have both made 150, both out for single figures. That was a good spell from Archer, and, and at that point England were back in it, Jonathan.

Yeah, he's only bowling 82, 83 miles an hour, but he's still getting this quite steepening bounce. He just found an area outside the left-handers off stump. I mean, clearly unsettled Conway, nasty blow on the head. There's a long break while they had to get a helmet to fit, all that sort of stuff. Conway had a long time to think about it, uh, and his shot was little bit, a little bit windy. I thought it had been unsettled. For me, Ravindra was always going to be the danger because he's a free-flowing batsman, left-handed, and the lead could quickly grow, which puts so much pressure then back on the fielding side, fielding positions and so on. And there was a nick that went through the slips at a very catchable height, but there wasn't a second slip. There's, you know, there's signs that obviously Stokes had to be very watchful about that lead. But he's the danger man for me because he's got the shots. He plays freely. I say left-handed, this opens up the field, um, and, and to see him 60 not out, that's, that's a, that's a concern for me.

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Only one other wicket fell, that of Henry Nicholls, caught by Brooke off Atkinson, who had bowled well, but then something curious happened. And it was that Sherab Bashir bowled a lot of overs from the end where folks had actually got quite a lot of joy. Alistair, were you surprised by that captaincy? I mean, he didn't bowl badly, Bashir. 9 overs done for 28, but it felt like a missed opportunity in a session where they only bowled in total 35 overs. And the series is on the line, and possibly the whole— like, jobs are on the line. Don't you say to your 4 fast bowlers, right, You got 9 overs each, you got to bowl them all.

Well, the thing for me is, so the left-hander which Archer exploited, New Zealand's top order, there's a crack bowling from the Stuart Broad end towards us which Archer hit and made life very uncomfortable for the New Zealanders. You're crying out on this end, bowling from our end, the media center end, that New Zealand found that crack to the right-hander, and only one ball was bowled at a right-hander from this send to Tung, and I couldn't wait for it. It was the 17th over. Mitchell's— I think it was 17th over. Mitchell's on strike. Tung had bowled 5 or 6 overs, still, you know, the game's on the line, right? Mitchell, what are you going to do to this crack? And the next time I saw Bashir bowl, and my head went into my hands. And if it turned out to be a great tactical move and Bashir got wickets, fine. But it didn't in that there, and I thought, oh my God, what's happened here? Let's have a look, let's see. I was really genuinely excited about someone bowling because he bowled at 91 mph, the crowd was roaring, but he was bowling mainly at the left-hander and he got the right-hander on strike, Mitchell, and it just didn't happen. And from that moment on, the initiative was lost. Ask every— and Mitchell had been stood at slip all the time watching folks bowl these balls to Brook. He'd have been thinking, oh my God, what happens when I face this end?

He didn't get it.

And you say, who would you want to face? Bashir, who bowled nicely, fine, or a bloke bowling 91 mph hitting a crack? I genuinely could not believe it.

There was no pressure, was there? That's the trouble. It's like, pressure off. Just, just play. He spun one or two, I think, out of the rough more than anything else, wasn't it? From, uh, from outside the off stump. But that, that was disappointing. In a way, it is quite typical Stokes. Stokes can often do that quite deliberately, I think, because he knows that people are saying he shouldn't be doing it. He can be quite a stubborn individual. I mean, I mean, he wants Bashir to do well. Every part of him thinking they want to big Bashir up a bit. And therefore we're going to give him a bowl. But it's a bad decision, wrong decision.

Well, Simon Mann is speaking to Shoaib Bashir, maybe we'll find out about that decision.

Well, Shoaib, when you started off this morning, what was your hope, expectation as a team?

Yeah, I mean, yesterday we fought ourselves back into quite a good position, and for us this morning to lose a few wickets early was quite disappointing. We would have liked to got close to, well, close to their score or a lead if possible, but that, yeah, that didn't turn out to be. But I thought the boys, when we went out here today, bowled well. We restricted them. But yeah, tomorrow we've got a job to do and got to bowl them out tomorrow.

Yeah, I mean, how do you assess the overall state of the game?

Yeah, it's obviously they're probably ahead of the game at the moment, I'd say. But, you know, the game's changing massively. The wicket's spinning now, which is good signs for me. And yeah, it looked like the ball was doing a lot more today than it has done in these last few days. So, so yeah, we know we'll come tomorrow quite positive and see where we can get to.

Does it feel like an unusual game? I mean, there have been big fluctuations throughout the match.

Yeah, it has. I mean, the wicket's played very, very strangely. It's a good wicket. We saw on day 1 where Blundell and—

Nathan Conway.

Yeah, 2 openers, obviously the 300-run partnership, which shows you how good that wicket was. But yeah, it's changing, so we're looking forward to seeing where we can get to tomorrow.

What do you think might be quite difficult to chase? What do you feel you need to keep them to?

I wouldn't put another— a number on it at the moment, but as little as possible, obviously.

What about your experience? You bowled a lot early in the season, didn't you, in the Championship? 200 overs before the Lord's Test. Not much bowling in the last month or so. What was it like coming into this game without that, you know, a lot of recent bowling behind you?

Yeah, to be honest, I've been training, training a huge amount. I made the move to Derbyshire where Mickey Arthur took me under his wing. And yeah, I've bowled a lot more overs than I have done in the previous years, so I feel like my bowling is in a good place at the moment.

And what about your role tomorrow?

Yeah, as you saw, the wicket's deteriorating a bit, so obviously my role is going to be a more important role. I've seen— I've bowled here before in second innings, and yeah, it's been special. So I'll see what I can pull out my sleeve tomorrow.

Are you surprised at how the pitch has turned out today?

Not in particular. Like, the weather's allowed the pitch to dry out, so, and there has been lateral movement and a bit of bounce. But yeah, we're at Trent Bridge, so anything can happen.

Thanks very much for your time.

Pleasure.

Thanks a lot. Thank you.

And that was Bashir with Simon Mann. He said anything could happen. He also said earlier in that interview that it was really starting to turn and he was and spin was really going to come into it. He was going to have a massive role to play. Now, well, what we watched was New Zealand getting the pitch to do all sorts with Seamers. We saw England doing it themselves a little bit, not so much with the pitch but taking their wickets with Seamers. But everything that we saw today was assisting Seamers. Do you think that's an unusual reading of the pitch?

Well, I mean, it's unusual he was put up in the first place. Not out and not for 28, poor old Sherborne has to go out and talk about England's performances. So he's just trying to make himself, I suppose, you know, really relevant tomorrow. I mean, someone's got to bowl them out, um, but from what we saw today, it's unlikely to be him. It's more likely to be a fast bowler bowling at right-handers from this end. They've got to get Ravindra out quickly, um, so, you know, I want Archer coming in, um, at the far end bowling to the left-handers. Crack. And I want to see Atkinson or Tung, preferably actually bowling from this end at the right-handers. And they've just got to get— they've got to, they've got to, they've got to roll them over tomorrow. Otherwise, I mean, 250, 260 is going to take a lot of getting. Because the problem for England is that, um, you know, Foulkes, who was not even playing in the game and looks steady— he does look steady— but because the pitch, the way it's playing, he's actually dangerous. You know, if you look at the attack first thing this morning, thought, oh, you know, England are going to get a lot of runs here. But actually, they've got just the attack for these conditions, that'll be very difficult for England.

I mean, I've given up predicting because who would have predicted that, uh, on day 2 that England will have that kind of day, bowl New Zealand out for 100 runs basically for 8 wickets, and then, uh, be attacked, you know, be in the position they were at the end of day 2 to the position we are end of day 3. You can never ever write off this England side because they have produced— I think Ben Duckett is going to be so crucial for this, the start of the chase, because how he plays and the pressure he transfers back onto the New Zealand bowlers. So yeah, I can't write England off. And Agus is right, I hate to admit it sometimes, Ravindra, the way he plays, New Zealand missed that on day 2 morning where both like Blundell, Mitchell not went into the shells but tried to grind their way into a situation.

Got it wrong, didn't they?

Yeah, rather than putting their foot, uh, you know, a bit more aggressively, they allowed England to bowl. England countered that. So who knows in this Test match? And that's why we love it. Um, we try and predict, and we— I haven't got anything right so far.

No, me neither. Um, well, it's Nathan Smith who took the most wickets with 4 for 91, and he's with Simon Mann.

Well, Nathan, what about that fight back today?

Yeah, it was a far better day from us, uh, with the balls. Start off with the ball. I thought we put the ball in good areas, got some rewards early, and then hung in there for long periods, which was good.

What were you thinking this morning? Because you totally controlled the first day, and then England fought back on the second day. Were you fearing that they, you know, they might be able to get a lead?

I mean, we never really sort of let ourselves think that too far ahead, but for us it was just about keeping it as simple as possible and just try and get our execution up a little bit more compared to the day 2 What did you make of the pitch today? I actually felt like it offered a little bit more this morning than it did yesterday, and obviously a few from folks there you saw seemed quite, quite sharply. So, and then a couple of our wickets as well were starting to do a little bit more, especially with that newer hard ball. So hopefully we can pile on a few more and then, and then have a crack at them late tomorrow night.

The tactic of having the keeper standing out worked so well for Matt Henry in particular. In particular at the Oval, but also for you as well. What about it? How do you see it?

Yeah, it's an interesting one. It's not— you're not really used to having the keeper up too much, but I think it just takes their feet away. Both Root and Brook especially like to get out of their crease and be quite proactive, so I think it just keeps them on the crease. And obviously we're trying to set them up for that sort of— that LBW, that one that nips back. But it also keeps them a little bit leg side of it because they are worried about that. And I think you saw in the second innings the Oval. Matt Henry nicked off Harry Brook as well. So I think it just gives you both edges, keeping them on the crease. And obviously Tom Blundell, he's kept amazing these last two Tests, so he's really got us back in the game.

Are you surprised at how well it's worked?

I'm not— am I surprised? Very happy it's worked well. Don't know about surprised, because Tom's an amazing keeper. And I mean, it's just something that we're not used to. It's visually, it's a little bit different from a bowling point of view. You're used to sort of seeing the ball fly through out past the outside edge. But I think, you know, even you saw there, Joffre got the keeper up for a couple of balls there, so you just have to adjust.

What was it like to get Joe Root out this morning? I mean, that's the way you need to go early on, isn't it?

For sure, yeah. I was definitely prepared to sort of have to work for it quite a bit this morning and put the ball in the area for a long period of time, but luckily got one to nip pretty early. And yeah, we're pretty happy with that one.

Yeah.

What about the state of the game. You're about 200 runs ahead, 7 wickets in hand. I mean, how many do you feel you need? Not saying to be safe, but feel, oh yeah, we got a really good chance in the game.

Yeah, I was a little bit nervous when we were 2 for 12. I was thinking, what can we get to here? But you know, the boys have batted really well this evening to get us through to 200 ahead. I'm not sure how many we need, or I just know we want a hell of a lot more tomorrow. Bet for another session and a half if we can. And obviously I think it does a little bit more in the morning here as well, so we'll see how we go there in that first hour. But then yeah, pile on over 300 for sure.

Are you expecting the pitch to disintegrate a little bit more?

I feel like, I feel like the heat's done its thing. It's definitely, I feel like it's definitely gotten worse for batting as the game's gone on, so I'd assume it would continue with that trend.

Okay, well done today.

Thanks very much.

Cheers.

Thank you. Well, obviously delighted Nathan Smith, bat on for a session and a half. Things are tricky in the morning, wickets deteriorating. Alistair Kirk, it's all doom and gloom for England. Is there any way back in this match?

Well, absolutely there is. They, they get Ravindra Mitchell out early, uh, and suddenly then run scoring becomes hard and you're chasing 270. Ben Duckett gets off to a flyer and Joe Root knocks him off with Harry Brook. That's the dream scenario. And, and in this Test match, it swung so violently from side to side, it it's really hard to call.

Guess what?

It'd be exciting, it'd be great to watch.

As you say, an incredibly unpredictable game. Thanks to Michael, Alistair, and Aggers. That's it for this episode of the TMS Podcast. Make sure you subscribe so you never miss an episode. You can watch highlights on Today at the Test on iPlayer or the BBC Sport website and app, where you'll find action from the England v New Zealand Women's T20 World Cup game. TMS is back on air from 10 AM on BBC Sounds and 5 Sport Expert.

My favorite World Cup moment? It's the first World Cup I properly remember watching. Argentina '78. The ticker tape, Mario Kempes, Ari Hahn scoring goals from miles out. And always one of my favorite World Cup moments, Archie Gemmell's great goal for Scotland against the Dutch. What makes the World Cup such a special tournament is the atmosphere, the color. It is a meeting of the nations and of people who love Football, the FIFA World Cup 2026.

Listen on BBC Sounds.

How did a boy called Jimmy become a billionaire from posting videos?

On Good, Bad Billionaire, we're going to find out how the world's most popular YouTuber, MrBeast, made his fortune.

He's buried himself in a coffin for days, counted to 100,000 on camera, and even recreated Squid Games, all in an attempt to go viral on the internet.

But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism?

Or is he just the king of the attention economy?

Find out on Good Bad Billionaire.

Listen on BBC.com or wherever you get your podcasts.