No assurances Stokes to stay as captain, says Rob Key

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Hello and welcome to a bonus edition of the Test Match Special Podcast. This is Henry Moran. When this happened, everything was looking rosier for the England men's Test side.

Atkinson moves in, Lingfridge, 5-foot bowls in, middle stump is out of the ground. Atkinson on the honors board again at Lord's. 5 for 30, England win the Test match.

They go 1-0 up here at Lord's.

But less than a day later, Gus Atkinson and captain Ben Stokes were involved in a late-night incident in a West End nightclub to once again plunge the English game into crisis. We'll be hearing from the ECB's managing director Rob Key, two former England captains Sir Alistair Cook and Michael Vaughan, and our chief cricket commentator Jonathan Agnew. Strap in, there's much to discuss.

The TMS Podcast on BBC Sounds.

Well, welcome to a rainy Oval at the end of a few days that England men's cricket could really have done without. Disbelief, shock, bewilderment— lots of words have been thrown around in the days following the events of early Monday morning. Let's get right to it. Just how would managing director Rob Key have felt when he woke up to the news of another late-night scandal? Our cricket correspondent Stefan Schemelt is with me. Stefan, you've been chatting to Rob Key.

I have, and it feels like I have a lot of these conversations with Rob Key where he has to front up and explain the actions of his players. It's what happened back in Melbourne when there were a number of allegations of drinking on the Ashes tour. Key was again speaking in March after the end of the Ashes review when England looked at all the on-field and off-field occurrences that went on. In the winter, and let's not forget that Harry Brook incident in a nightclub or outside a nightclub in Wellington, and Key was backed by the England and Wales Cricket Board. They were all backed, the management, Rob Key, the director of cricket, head coach Brendan McCullum, and captain Ben Stokes, and together they put in place these new protocols, if you will, including the curfew, the midnight curfew that was in place still on Sunday evening after England won that first Test against New Zealand at Lord's, and it was Stokes, the captain, in his first experience of the curfew, because remember when it was brought in, it was a white ball stuff in the spring that Stokes wasn't a part of. But this time, after the game, it was still in place even though the Test match was over, and it was Stokes along with Atkinson who broke the curfew. And so naturally, my first question to Rob Key was after all that happened in the winter, after all the talking and all the work that has been put into improving this England team culture and improving their reputation with the public, how did he feel when he learned of what happened in that nightclub on the early hours of Monday morning?

I think the first thing, it was sort of Monday morning, was a sinking feeling, um, and then disbelief, anger. I'm not sure I'm over all of that now, to be honest, because there's so much work, there's so much work that Ben and myself have put in as well, so much time spent on the phone. So I was— I think the overriding thing was shock, uh, that it was Ben who was involved in this.

Will Ben Stokes play for England again?

Look, no decision's been made. I don't see why not. Um, at the moment, it's one of those times where there's so many emotions flying around on every part of everything, whoever's involved in any of these decisions, and it's just a moment to take a breath and actually let the process play out. That's where we are at the minute. Both of these players have been stood down. We don't think it's the right thing for them, the right thing for us, the team, for them to be selected and playing this next Test match. And we'll find, you know, we'll let the process play out and we'll make a decision on all these things in due course.

With that understanding of you want to let the process play out, you did say You don't see a reason why not that Ben can't play for England again. Will he captain England again?

Again, we'll have to just— the position we are at the moment, there's a lot of things to happen before then. There's a lot— we've got to run this investigation, find out what happened exactly. We're in the midst of that at the moment, so no decisions will be made until after that.

So there might be some doubt over whether he captains England again?

I think there's— we just got to let this play out from there, really. No decision has been made on our side. We've not given him any ultimatums. We've not We're just speaking to him all the time to make sure that he's all right. It's obviously been a traumatic time for him over the last few days, and when things are like that, you don't want to make any decisions really. So time is our ally in this.

Were you concerned that he'd walk away from either the job or playing for England altogether?

Uh, I don't know what I felt, to be honest, really, in that. I think, you know, I've not He's not intimated that to me, but at the moment we're just trying to make sure that he's all right and that, you know, he doesn't rush to any rash decisions.

Harry Brook's the Test vice-captain. Why is he not captain in the second Test?

I just don't feel that's the right time. That's a decision that we came to. We thought long and hard about this. The Test captaincy is a massive job, even if it's on an interim basis, especially going into this next Test match. And everything that Harry would have to deal with, plus the fact Harry's at the moment getting his head around white ball cricket as well, as well as being one of the best test batters in the world, just didn't feel like that was the right time for a number of different reasons. And I think English cricket is incredibly fortunate to have Joe Root. English cricket has relied on him not as a batter. Every time you're 10 for 2, Joe Root's the man that gets England out of a hole, and he's doing that again for us. And yet again, Joe Root has no— doesn't question anything when you ask him to do something.

You said there's a number of reasons why Harry's not captain. Is Wellington one of those reasons?

I think that would be one of them, yeah. That's not the main reason, that's for sure. It's just that the enormity of that job, what's best for Harry, what's best for this team going forward.

I guess though, you and everyone at the ECB would have been aware of a situation where one captain wasn't playing because of a nightclub incident and would have been replaced by another one who'd been involved in his own nightclub incident.

Yeah, it'd be pretty hard not to be aware of that in this position.

Um, did the precedent of the punishment given to Harry over the winter— has that set a precedent for what could happen now?

Uh, I don't think so. We're obviously now— we spent a long time over the last few months with trying to make sure that what we're portraying to the public, that we're getting— we're going to regain their trust. And I'm not sure we've done that. In fact, I know we haven't done that with what's happened here, which is such a shame because what I saw the team do out on the field, it was such a good win against an excellent New Zealand team. All the things that we've been working on, every single thing, whether it's within the dressing room, whether it's within that side, whether it's all the, all the work we've tried to do to reconnect the game, it feels like we've just been smashed in the face with that, and that is incredibly frustrating.

Previously you've denied that there's a drinking culture in this team. When we spoke to Richard Gould In March, he talked about new expectations and not having to relearn lessons. But are you and the rest of the ECB in control of this England environment at the moment?

Look, clearly, when you look at what's happened, it's hard to defend anything that's gone on at the moment. I believe that we are on the right path, and that's really hard for us— for me to be able to prove. And I mean, we'll be judged by our actions going forward as we're being judged now.

Last question, what would you say to England supporters who are probably pretty fed up of what is going on around this England team at the moment?

I can understand how they feel because that's exactly how I feel with this situation. The last few days, you know, I wanted to be here talking about a great win, or I wanted Marcus North to be here talking about the selection for the next Test and some of the great stories, looking at, looking back on what was a brilliant Test match win. But here I am again talking about this. That is incredibly frustrating, so I can only imagine how they feel.

Well, that was a fascinating discussion between Stefan and England managing director Rob Key. We'll be getting more reaction from Stefan and also ESPNcricinfo's Vettushan Ahantharajah shortly, but let's get the thoughts of the BBC's chief cricket commentator Jonathan Agnew, who's been across Rob Key's words this morning. Wasn't exactly a complete backing of Ben Stokes, Aggett.

Yes, and, uh, you know, for anybody who's still— and there are some, I think— still wondering quite why this is being taken so seriously, you only have to listen to Rob Key, who is clearly angry, uh, and feels very let down. And this is a man whose job was very much on the line after Australia. I think a lot of people thought that he actually— he might lose his job as the director of cricket and the man who signed that tour off. And clearly there'd been a lot of conversations between him and McCullum and Richard Gould, the chief executive, and Ben Stokes in the meantime to try and work a way through all of this. I mean, before the Test match, and to improve the image of English cricket and to actually to improve the behaviour of the team. And so for this to happen, you know, at the end of the first game when this curfew was still in place, You know, as Rob Key described his own feelings, didn't he? I mean, he clearly feels very let down. It's a really interesting situation. You know, on the one hand, you get people saying, well, you know, surely Ben Stokes can't lose the captaincy just for breaking a curfew. And no, you're inclined, you know, not to think that that should be the case. But then when you look at the bigger picture, When you look at the big picture of what the England management and hierarchy are faced with, the irrefutable evidence now of there being an issue within the team going out and drinking and generally behaving irresponsibly, that's, that's what they have to address. And for me, I would hate to see Ben Stokes lose the captaincy over this, and I don't think he should. But there are two questions. First is, will the team respect Stokes after this as much as they did before it? I think the answer to that will be yes. I don't think, I don't think this will have an impact on his standing within the team. I think he could walk back in there and, and be captain of England. The second part, however, is that for the management and for the administrators of the ECB to consider, what would the image of that be for English cricket? And that is what they have to address, you know, that it That, that's, that's the big decision really. I don't think there's any issue about him coming back into the side and leading it, but there is now, and it's, it is, it is out there that English cricket has to address its image.

It is extraordinary that players should be out after the first Test match given everything, but the fact that it was the captain, I mean, the, the issue and the question is going to be public perception, and if, if nothing changes in terms of leadership, and, you know, at what point you start questioning, I suppose, uh, the, you know, the method going forward and who is in charge and who is setting what is the culture of, of this team.

Of course. I mean, it feels like a lack of respect, you know. That, that's, that, that's really, you know, what it boils down to in the end. These—

right, does Ben Stokes take culpability for that?

Well, he should do, because rightly or wrongly, he and McCullum and Key have been through the wringer since the Ashes, and all three could have lost their jobs. So, you know, for people who are saying, oh, it's only a— but what's wrong with two blokes going out having a drink after they win the game? Well, the answer is nothing. There's nothing wrong with two blokes going out and having a drink after the game. Nothing wrong with the whole team going out and having a drink after the game. However, it's how you do it, and it's how you behave, and it's with a curfew in place The curfew is in place. Now, I would argue there shouldn't be a curfew in place because it shouldn't be needed, it shouldn't be necessary. If you're playing for your country and you're a professional sportsman, you shouldn't need a curfew to make sure that you're in bed on time, you can give your best. So, but you know, that is because of the way England have behaved over the last few months that the curfew is back in place again. It shouldn't be there, but they felt it necessary. And Stokes agreed that it should be necessary. So, you know, I'm afraid that from Ben Stokes' perspective, there really doesn't seem to be much of a, you know, much of a mitigation. You know, he's done what he's done. It's a question of the impact of that. And as I mentioned, I don't think it'll have any impact on his standing within the team. But the bigger picture is the impact that it has on the image of that team and also the fans, also the supporters of English cricket, you know, who spent a lot of money Tens of thousands of them going out to Australia to support the team. They really felt they had a chance of winning the Ashes. And what they saw obviously was an unprofessional performance on and off the field. And quite rightly, they feel really angry about that. This is not going to help that reconnection with the supporters. That is for the administrators to decide. I don't think that has anything to do with Ben Stokes' decision about what he does. You know, I believe he simply has to to weigh up his, his standing within the team. I don't think that's an issue, but the— it is that bigger picture that is the problem.

Rob Key said, I believe we're on the right path, and it's really hard for me to be able to prove that. We'll be judged by our actions going forward as we're being judged now. What, from an ECB perspective, do you think, Agus, are the actions that they need to take to ensure that they are judged favorably, or is it just down to the players?

Well, they need to get to the bottom of what happened first. I mean, there's still a lot of conjecture about this incident that took place afterwards, isn't there? I mean, this is, this is, this is the big question, uh, and there's also a lot of stuff out there saying that actually neither Ben Stokes nor Gus Atkinson— who, by the way, is one of the quietest people you'll ever meet, I mean, it's extraordinary that he should be, um, tied up in all of this, um— but that's, you know, that investigation has to take place, and, and then, then, you know, they can, they can take a view of what actually happened when witnesses have been called and given statements and so on. They can actually see what happened. So I I don't think you can look a whole much further forward than where we are now until that happens.

The exchange between Stefan and Rob Kee about why Harry Brook isn't skipper because of the incident in Wellington— I mean, it is becoming more of a, an issue now, but isn't it? I mean, it's not just a sort of pattern of behavior, it, it feels like this culture is endemic within the entire setup.

Well, I mean, it's tempting to reach that conclusion, and the fact that Brook was not made captain— I sort of get the cricketing reasons as well, you know, but however, you know, under any other circumstances, the vice-captain steps up to be captain when the captain is unavailable, and the ECB have felt that Brook can't do that. I mean, I happen to think they're right. I think that would have been genuinely farcical if really— I mean, let's face it, it was Brook's Brooks' behavior that really prompted this curfew coming into place. Um, you know, that, that is something that he has to cope with. And clearly England, the, the management, do not feel that he can, he can lead England at the moment. And I think they're right. I think they're right. I mean, poor old Joe Root, he's been facing all sorts of questions, isn't he? None of which really have got anything to do with him. But there he is, he's thrust, thrust onto the front line. He'll cope with it. You know, everyone respects Joe Root enormously. And I think it's probably the right decision to ask him to do it just for a very short term, maybe these next 2 Test matches, and then they will have— the regulator will have spoken. There's a gap for Stokes. He's not going to play in any one-day cricket up until the Pakistan Test series, and that, I suspect, is when much of the hard work will have to be done behind the scenes. And hopefully he'll carry on as captain. I mean, I really hope that this does not cost him the captaincy. It's for on the field, It is not in England's best interest for Stokes not to be captain. He needs to prove some form, but in terms of leadership and skills and what we have this, this year with South Africa as well, and then going into the Ashes next year, it's in England's best interest to have Ben Stokes as captain. But there is— it's a bigger picture than that, and that's for the— say, as I mentioned, that's for the administrators, the whole image of the game and so on. That, that is the bigger picture that they have to weigh up, and why Stokes felt that he could actually go out there and do this. Having been such an integral part of the decision to bring in this sort of, you know, behavioral code anyway. So that only Ben Stokes can answer that, and I suspect he's feeling devastated.

No decisions have been made is what Rob Key says in terms of what's going to happen going forward. I mean, what decisions need to be made? Because clearly whatever has happened up to now has not made enough of an impact.

Well, no, I mean, I think what he was referring to was relating to the decision by the regulator, isn't it? I mean, if And the seriousness therefore of the breach is what the board will have to consider when it comes to Stokes and to Atkinson. As far as behaviour off the field is concerned, I mean, okay, two people have broken it, a number apparently didn't, they went back before the curfew. But there'll be a feeling of desperation, you know. The last thing that a national team, international team, needs is a reputation and an image like the England cricket team currently have. And that is something that everybody involved in English cricket is going to have to address. And that starts at the top, Richard Gould downwards, for me. He's in charge. He has to make sure that the image of English cricket improves greatly from where it is now. But everyone's got to buy into it. Everyone, all the players, the management, the coaching staff, everybody involved in English cricket would have to buy into the fact that that image needs to be repaired and needs to be done urgently. The fans, the fans and supporters, they, you know, there is, there is definitely a loss of connection and a loss of faith. The other team, the integrity of the team is important, and so that has to be, that has to be addressed. But that's a, in a way, it's a separate issue. I think the Stokes issue will be dealt with when the regulator has spoken. And again, you know, whether Ben Stokes is capable of walking to that team and leading them, I say yes, he is. There will be a punishment involved, maybe these two Test matches if he misses those, and a fine. But it's the bigger picture that has to be addressed by those within the ECB, starting with Richard Gould, as to how they address this behavioral issue that there is with the England cricket team. And they have to accept that it's there for a start and not keep denying it, and how they therefore go forward and improve the image of the England cricket team.

And just finally, Aggers, as a lover of English cricket and a passionate fighter for its place in terms of the British sporting landscape, this week of all weeks, with the Women's World Cup in this country, with a Football World Cup starting and trying to grab attention as well, I mean, how upsetting is it for you as somebody that wants to see the game thrive?

Well, it's upsetting for everybody, isn't it? You know, it's upsetting for everybody who is passionate about English cricket, but You know, again, the context has to be taken into account. This goes back to, to the New Zealand trip before the Ashes and the lack of preparation and the comments that were made and the, all of that, you know, that sort of arrogance that's been shown in Australia. You know, this is all the bigger picture of it, you know, then it needs, it needs to be addressed. And, and so that's why I think people who, particularly those who were in Australia and particularly those who paid a lot of money to go to Australia, want why they're feeling thoroughly let down. And this is just another element of all of this that has to be addressed, and it'll start only when Richard Gould and the board acknowledge that there is an issue.

Well, that was the thoughts of Jonathan Agnew. Stefan Vettucian, lovely to see you both. A rainy Oval, and Fish, first of all, I mean, let's look at a little bit, I suppose, the broader picture and clearly the utter shock and bewilderment from Rob Key.

Yeah, I mean, that's the angriest I've seen Rob Key, and understandably so. I think this is— consider when he took the job in 2022, one of the things he loved about it was to be involved in the cricket side of it, to make the appointments of Brendan McCullum and Ben Stokes, to you know, then oversee the, you know, the team's initial summer, filled him with great pride going into that '23 Ashes the next summer. And there was a point, I remember talking to Key at the end of the '23 summer, and there was a point where he realized that he'd have to, you know, he'd step back, he wouldn't be as involved in the team itself. They were set on their way, they looked to be onto a good thing. And, you know, I think he tongue-in-cheek said never really liked the admin side of it, but he had to, you know, do a bit of that, had to do, you know, a few things at boardroom level. And fast forward 3 years and it felt like he, well, it does feel like he's done with it to a point, not in the sense that he's gonna step down or anything like that, but at some point he probably is wondering if he's actually dealing with adults or kids here. I don't know about Stefan, but the overriding emotion after all these days of reacting to what happened on Monday morning at that Chelsea nightclub. You know, I've gone through so many phrases of, you know, things that are like ill-discipline, stuff like that. And when you really boil it down, it's just stupid. The stupidity of the situation they found themselves in, the stupidity of not having, you know, falling at the first hurdle, falling at the first, um, home match of the, uh, of the men's summer. Just how hard would it have been to keep their head down for, you know, a few days? I've only won one game, the World Cup's about to start, let that take the column inches. And then you can probably get away with a bit more, you know. But yeah, the stupidity of everything around this is, um, yes, what's really striking me right now.

I think there's two ways of looking at the whole environment, and certainly, you know, when you sit down and look into Rob Key's eyes, it is hard not to, you know, you sense his frustration because he lived through all of the winter and has had to defend his players and say, "We haven't got a drinking culture," and all those things. And when he says, "We have worked hard to try and put this right," there's no reason not to believe him. However, everyone involved with English cricket has created this environment, and at times they've celebrated it. What's the word that Brendan McCullum uses? "Informal." He says he makes no apologies for having an informal environment. And I'm sure, by the way, that Brendan McCullum— we'll speak to him in the run-up to the next Test— he will be angry and frustrated and all those things because he often says, or as well, nothing good happens after midnight. Don't get yourself on the front page of the paper. But England held a review into the Ashes series, and this goes right to the top of the ECB. Richard Thompson, the chairman, Richard Gould, the chief executive, everyone on the board, and they decided that this was the way that they wanted to move forward. They wanted to leave the same people in charge. And no matter how much they say that they can tighten up the environment, it is still the same people. So for as much as I do have sympathy with Rob Kee, and I think he's got every right to be frustrated and angry and disappointed and all those things, this goes much further back. England wanted this environment, and no matter how they try and tighten it up now, it just looks like they can't tighten it enough. And you heard in the interview Rob Key is even talking about he's considering imposing an alcohol ban. I mean, how well would that go down? And do we even need to discuss that? Because there's another element here, Vish. I mean, you cover a lot of football. I mean, these guys are professional athletes. Is there a debate to be had of whether, you know, you need to ban alcohol? Should some players even be just considering, you know what, I don't need to have a drink?

Well, I suppose that goes to the heart of the game itself, doesn't it? Like, cricket is a game, certainly in the English game, that is almost framed around alcohol. I mean, the idea of an alcohol ban being in place and yet the ECB having so many alcohol-related sponsors, the fact that at the end of the, you know, if England win the series here at the Oval, what's the first thing they're going to get their hands on, you know, before the series trophy? It will be a couple of bottles of sparkling wine, champagne. Like, it's It's mad, really. I think you're totally right about the informal nature of the group and how— I mean, I think that's worn out, really. That worked when there were seasoned pros who, you know what, knew how to have a good time, and it doesn't really work with this group. I made this point in Australia, and it maybe came across as a bit flippant, but I stand by it. I think this team are bad drinkers. I think And it sounds a bit stupid when I say it out loud, but I think with the way that they've been, you know, they behave, they clearly can't be trusted around alcohol. I think it's important to say quickly though, that from what we know of the incident on Saturday— oh sorry, on Monday morning— Gus Atkinson and Ben Stokes were not the aggressors of that. I think That is an important thing to point out. More details will no doubt come to light, but I think fundamentally, if your captain can't adhere to a curfew, which he himself has helped bring to the table and install, then yeah, it's, I mean, we're in a very, very messy situation.

Anyone listening to this as well, I can sense there'll be some people shouting, these are grown men who have just won a Test match. There is 10 days to go to the next Test. Why on earth can't they have a drink? Why can't they let their hair down?

Well, I'll tell you one thing is a point that was being made in the press box is that England's men's footballers, 10 days out from a football World Cup, if there was a story about them being out on a night out, you would be astonished.

Yeah.

And that's it. They'd be sent home. They'd be sent home. Yeah. The players involved.

And so, and I do, but I take the point. If you have just won a Test match, and there is 10 days to go before the next test, why do you not have the right to go out and celebrate to whatever time that you want to go out and celebrate? Why do you need to be told what time you need to be back in your hotel or what time you need to be in bed? However, it is clear that cricket as a sport in certain countries, and I'm not saying that this is in every country because there are some countries where cricket is played where alcohol is just not part of the culture, but in some countries, professional cricket still has a really complex relationship with alcohol. And sometimes I feel that former cricketers are not the best people to comment on that relationship with alcohol because their stance is, "That is nothing we didn't do." And that's the point, because most other sports have moved on. And I would make the comparison with Arsenal of the mid-'90s when we know what Paul Merson and Tony Adams got up to. Can you imagine if they said that Declan Rice and Bukayo Saka are not doing anything that we didn't do? They just wouldn't be professional footballers anymore. So if we are talking about elite high-performance athletes, well, I would question if whether or not 10 days before your next international, you need to be out until the early hours drinking.

In terms of the culture around the game, Vish, there's been a lot of talk about that. And Steph mentions clearly there's some parts of the world where really not remotely, of course, it's not culturally or within a cricketing context, part of the world. But say in Australia, Travis Head scoring runs and being celebrated, being, you know, out having a few drinks, that was a big widely spread meme that was doing the rounds. And so in some respects, cricket sort of gives itself a free pass as long as you're winning almost.

Yeah. And I suppose that's why some people are— some people think this is a mountain out of a molehill because England did just win a Test, but I think you probably have to get a bit— I don't know, you probably have to get a bit nerdy with it when you think about like the actual thing that Gus Atkinson and Ben Stokes are guilty of is breaking team protocol. It's team protocol that was brought in after a really bad Winter's Ashes, And it was a measure brought in because Ben Stokes, Rob Key, and Brendan McCullum thought there need to be some checks and balances here. Granted, that was, you know, pushed on them to a point from above in terms of Thompson and Gould, but ultimately they came up with the framework of this curfew. It's getting home before midnight, it's checking in after 9 PM to let people know where you are, let the management know where you are. It's also important to say that when England started drinking with the Saracens rugby team on Sunday evening after they'd won that first test, it was more than just Gus Atkinson and Ben Stokes. And the reason it was whittled down is because it got to curfew and some of those players thought, you know what, I'm gonna head back. Stokes and Atkinson decided to stay out. Fine, they've got to wear that. And that is the reason for the curfew, because you might find yourself in a situation beyond your control. I feel like, you know, while we talk about the culture of of English cricket and alcohol. I mean, it's a tale as old as time that cricketers go out with rugby players and end up in a situation that is beyond their control. The fact that it happens at, you know, at the level we're talking about is probably not a surprise to people who've been around both games really, but it's just, I can't really grasp. It's important to say that the severity of it I don't think it's been blown out of proportion because I think people have been quite honest about what's actually gone on and certainly the reaction to it. But given where English cricket was coming out of the winter, given where it said it was going to begin at the start of the summer, it feels like there, there should be some collateral. And whether that is privileges or perhaps Stokes stepping down or having the captaincy taken away from him, then so be it, because it feels like at this point there was a level of distrust to the game, not only externally, but I'd also say internally as well now.

And that was the really, um, interesting thing that I took away from, from what Rob Key said, in that we know that Ben Stokes isn't going to play in this second Test match, um, at the Oval, and Gus Atkinson won't play either. And the explanation for that is it's not a suspension. They haven't been punished yet because the investigation isn't concluded. But they will not play in this game whilst the investigation is ongoing. Rob Key said, when I asked him, "Do you think Ben Stokes will play for England again?" He said, "I don't see why not." He wasn't that equivocal when he was asked, "Will Ben Stokes be captain again?" And now that might just be because the investigations that are ongoing by both the ECB and the cricket regulator, that that decision actually isn't in Rob Key's gift. That there might be a sanction in place that is even above Rob Key's head for the captaincy to be taken away from Ben Stokes. But what we've learned today is that if Ben Stokes wants to, the director of cricket for the England men's team can see a path for him to return to the team. But he didn't definitely say he would return as captain.

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5 lives for—

I'm Steve Bratnell, host of Games Gone, the Steve Bratnell podcast. What's my favourite World Cup moment as a fan? I have to say Michael Owen skinning the whole of the Argentina defence and cracking it in top corner. For a very short space of time, I believed.

It's an absolutely fantastic goal by Michael Owen!

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Well, let's hear from a couple of former England captains in a moment. Sir Alistair Cook speaking to Five Live Breakfast. But before that, here's Michael Vaughan in conversation on Five Live Sport with Mark Chapman.

Yeah, I mean, English cricket has had some moments, um, through the history of the game, but to try and, uh, outstage a football World Cup that's just about to start is, is right up there. Um, I left Lords Sunday afternoon. I thought, oh, the MCC are in trouble this week because everyone will be talking about the pitch. Got home Monday morning and then obviously a statement came out Monday afternoon regarding two players breaking the curfew, a scuffle, a fight in a nightclub. So I think we're all thinking the worst. But on the reset of this England side and what we went through in the winter with Harry Brook in New Zealand, with the Noosa trip, Ben Duckett asking for that Uber, that clip's gone viral. So then thinking, wait a minute, they've won a game, uh, the pitch wasn't great at Lord's, and that's all been the conversation. To think that we're now talking about discipline and the England captain is not going to be there for the second Test match with a bowler who bowled great, played well in Gus Atkinson at Lord's. Uh, yeah, once again, this English cricket team has made the front pages for the wrong news.

Yeah, I mean, I was thinking about this over the last sort of 24-48 hours since this all came out. I mean, the most bizarre one was David Gower flying the Tiger Moth, but, but after, after that, as regards English cricketers getting themselves in some very odd situations and then the subsequent punishment, this is, this is up there, isn't it?

Yeah, I mean, I, I think Harry Brooks would have been up there if they'd have dealt with that when it happened on November, that November the 1st, having been punched by a bouncer and tossing up a few hours later as the England One Day captain. I think that's right up there. And I look back at that moment I actually look back at the way that the players have been treated, and there's been a few things that the ECB have brushed under the carpet, and I think it's coming back to hurt them because you do need disciplines in sport. I actually don't believe in curfews. I think once you start talking about having a curfew, you've not got the right characters within your group because, you know, what you want in a sporting team, particularly England, you've won a Test match and you've got, what, 10 days to go to the next one. You want your players to go and enjoy that moment. And to think that, you know, I believe there was a few of them out and they got the taxis home because they knew, obviously, the curfew time. And then obviously the captain thought, well, I've not won a game for a while, I wanna— I haven't played for a while really. He's been away from the England side, he doesn't play white ball cricket, and he wanted to celebrate that a little bit more, which, you know, he'll be thinking now, what have I done? Obviously it's not great for the captain at all to be breaking that protocol that's just been put in place. You know, I think the way the way that they've held, you know, themselves together in terms of, you know, Joe Root's now the captain for next week. They needed a safe pair of hands. They couldn't have Harry Brook arriving on Monday to the press conference to talk about discipline on the back of what happened with Harry in November. So I think the ECB have dealt with it as well as they could. Whether Ben Stokes is agreeing upon the way that they've dealt with it, I guess that's another story, because as I speak here, I've not seen anything from Ben Stokes or his team in terms of his agreement because if you actually go back to the Harry Brook situation, Harry Brook never missed a game, you know, he was never suspended, he was never taken out the firing line, it was brushed under the carpet and even by the time it got to the stage of the cricket regulator dealing with it, it was kind of gone by then. The England captain, from what I can gather, looks like he might have had the tap on the shoulder to say that you're gonna have to miss a game.

But I suppose that's the key, isn't it? If, if they then brought in this curfew— and I tend to side with you on really what— why do, why do grown athletes need curfews, really, if, if they're behaving, you know, properly towards the culture of their sport? But if, if the rule is you break the curfew, which as I understand it Ben Stokes was, was part of the decision-making group to bring in the curfew. If you break a curfew, then you miss a game, then I suppose they've followed their own rule book, haven't they? Because at this stage, that is all that the two of them have done wrong.

Yeah, yeah, at this stage, that, that's, that's exactly right. Um, you know, I, I, I, I'm trying to work out what needs to happen if you break a, a protocol like the one that's been put in place. And I guess if that's the new rules from the ECB, that you break protocol, you're going to miss a game of cricket, at least everyone knows now. I just keep going back to this Harry Brook situation where they brushed it under the carpet and they should have dealt with it on November 1st when it happened. They should have dealt with it. They allowed it to kind of disappear and then obviously a paper exposed the whole story and then they were in trouble and then it goes to the cricket regulator And from what I've seen this week, the ECB got on top of this straight away with their statement on Monday afternoon. It wouldn't have been easy for everyone involved because you're dealing with someone that's done a huge amount for English cricket. And when I started hearing and listening to a few interviews on the radio and on the television, so he's, he's been asked to step down and potentially he's going to retire from the game, I think, wait a minute, we've gone, we've gone far too far here. You know, this is, uh, from my recollection of him being the England captain, I don't I know what happened in Bristol many years ago, nearly 10 years ago with Ben, but as an England cricket captain, he's never really had a blip. You know, he's been outstanding for the team at times. He didn't deliver in the Ashes series as a captain, as his team didn't, you know, they produced a poor performance. But the only thing I've had of Ben Stokes, as many England captains, that he's done wrong is lose games of cricket since he's been the captain. That's the nature of the beast. I don't recollect that he's had any discipline. Problems, and this is the first time as captain, and to think that he's gonna have to miss a game because of that. The ECB have come down hard on him because there'll be many out there going, you know, it's 10 days before a game, why can't he go out and celebrate? But I guess if you're part of the leadership group, which he is, and he stipulated that he wanted a curfew for this group of players, and at the first time of asking he's broken that, I think it's fair and right that he does miss one game.

And you would hope, would you? I'm not trying to get you to say something finally that then gets played back in a week's time and makes has both looked daft. But you would hope that, would you, that this just draws a line under it?

Well, we thought that in the winter. I do think, you know, there's a fine balance in cricket and in sport. I get to India a lot and I have a relationship with a lot of the ex-Indian players and they're petrified of the BCCI. You know, they really are. They have this kind of feeling that the BCCI are the bosses. I get a feeling with English cricket that sometimes the ECB are petrified of the players. You know, the players rule the roost. Our players are allowed to play the full IPLs. They dictate. There needs to be a balance change. The bosses of our game, whether the players like it or not, are the hierarchy that are running our game. And I just want to see that change. And that means that the kind of culture of the dressing room has to be a dressing room where, you know what, when you win, you can go out and celebrate. I don't ever, ever want that to be taken away from an England cricket team. Fundamentally, they have to understand that things slightly have to change, and I'm sure they will. I'm sure they'll talk about it, but I just want to see an England side that we talk about for the right reasons, which we were doing on Sunday afternoons, which is winning games consistently now over a period. They've let the supporters down and themselves down, more importantly, because, you know, I know most of the players are all decent lads. They all work hard, and they get a bit of a bad rap for that at times, that they don't work as hard as they could, but they do. And they've got a chance of winning big things if they can really knuckle down. And off-field incidents like we were continuously talking about are not going to help anyone because it just puts the team, the management, and the whole culture of English cricket under a huge amount of pressure. And only they can get that right and change it. So they've got a job to do.

Well, it's never dull following the England cricket team over the last couple of years. It's a really interesting one because there's been a People sat at home going, what are these guys doing? They shouldn't be out. But one of the great things I think that cricket, with the story as well with rugby, do that people can relate quite a lot to rugby and cricket in this country and playing club cricket. And when you win, you go out and have a few drinks. And I think to celebrate, and there's always going to be a line which should be crossed or shouldn't be crossed on these things. And, you know, some of the best times I had when I played cricket for England was celebrating victories. And, you know, that is part of one of the great experiences, which is representing your country. And when you win for your country, then enjoying moments as well. And there's always, always an interesting line and an interesting balance between alcohol and success. And when it doesn't quite go right, it does fare up into a massive story. So It's— it has been interesting times. I, I do think this will get—

can't—

will very quickly move on to a different story, um, when the cricket goes on. But it's been unfortunate timing, certainly after what happened in the Ashes.

Thoughts there of Sir Alistair Cook. Um, just finally, gents, Joe Root, ever reliable, whether it's coming in at 10 for 2 or dealing with people that were out till 10 to 2. I mean, what, what must he think?

Well, um, I mean, he's a loyal friend, isn't he? And I think he would have looked at the situation that Stokes is in and wanted to help out. He's always been, you know, a very, I suppose, emotionally intelligent person, let alone a cricketer. And I think seeing his mate in strife and knowing he has to step in Um, you know, Rob Kee mentioned that he spoke to him and he said he had no qualms about doing it, um, despite the fact that he was glad to be rid of it in 2022. I think there are two— obviously a couple of other things to this. I think Root is also saving Harry Brook some awkward conversations given Harry Brook's incident in Wellington and the similarities, I suppose, between that and this and what that led to and why this is now a problem. I think, um, the other side to it as well is it's a bit of good PR. I think we're going to be here at The Oval when they read out Joe Root's name as England Test captain. There has never been a more popular English Test cricketer than Joe Root. He's universally loved. Um, he is, yeah, a safe pair of hands. Obviously his captaincy record's not great, but that's not why he's, uh, he's in this position now. And I think it's also, um important to say at a time when Stokes' relationship with the ECB is pretty tense. I think it's easier for Stokes to come in and take the reins back off Joe Root than it would have been to take it off Harry Brook. I think McCullum and Brook's relationship has really grown over the last 6 months. I'd even say it was growing during the Ashes when Stokes and McCullum drifted a bit. Now they say they've patched things up, but you never really go back to as it was. And I think Root doing it is a huge favor to Stokes and Brook, but probably more of a favor to Stokes.

If you think, you know, Joe Root and Ben Stokes first met when they were teenagers and coming through the ranks and everything that they have been through together as England cricketers, they have been there for all the major moments that have happened in the England cricket team over the past decade or more. So, you know, when Stokes made his Test debut in '13/'14 and that team Imploded through to regaining the Ashes in 2015 to the World Cup final in 2019. Root was captain when Stokes played his knock at Headingley. COVID, Bazball, everything that's happened in this winter. So they've been there together as players and they've been there as mates. You know, Joe Root was on the phone to Ben Stokes when he took a break, when he took a break from the game in 2021. Stokes was there for Root when he stepped down as captain A year later, and I think Vish is spot on, he is essentially doing a favor for his mate here because there could have been— I know that I've said that Rob Key is saying that Ben Stokes might not come back as captain anyway, but if Harry Brook had led in this Test match and maybe the Test match after, one route to Stokes coming back might have been closed in that England might have seen what they had in Brook as captain. McCullum might have seen what he had in Brook as captain. And for the first time, by the way, Ben Stokes isn't— Ben Stokes the cricketer is not indispensable to this England team. They— maybe it's Ray and Ahmed batting at 7, followed by 4 specialist seamers, and England all of a sudden go, do you know what, we quite like the look of this. But now with— it's been made very clear that Joe Root is the interim captain, and that is the way that Ben Stokes comes back. So Joe Root, for everything that he has done with the bat, how many runs is it, 13 and so many thousand, couple of thousand off Sachin Tendulkar, once again he is doing a solid for the team, for the country, but most importantly for one of his good mates.

A year from now, Vish, what does England cricket need to do to, or look like for public perception to be in a healthier place.

There you go.

I've got an answer.

I've got that. Sober. That's what it needs to look like.

It's got to be able to recite the alphabet backwards while touching their nose and standing on one leg. Win and win well. That was the case before this. That's certainly the case after it. I think, you know, New Zealand, Pakistan, they go to South Africa. That's going to be huge. Coming out of South Africa with with a good result under your belt, that, that would show they're in a serious place. Not least because, you know, the nightlife in South Africa is great, and it's something that England have indulged in, and one of the reasons they love touring there, particularly Cape Town. So showing a bit of responsibility there— I— regaining trust is a funny thing, isn't it? I don't think they've lost trust with this incident, but they've gained ridicule. And I don't think so, you know, um, Rob Key in the written, um, the written media bit was asked if England are a national embarrassment, and he said of course they weren't because they play entertaining cricket. I think people just laugh at English cricket right now, certainly the Test side, because of what's happened over the last few years. Bear in mind that with the Ashes and with other series like that, you, you get a lot of floating voters, you get people coming in, and you get a lot of foot traffic, I suppose. They're going to lose that when the World Cup starts, which, as I said before, makes it all the more ridiculous. Could have kept your head down till the World Cup and losses. But I think, I don't think it's a loss of faith. I think it's people taking them seriously again. And that just requires winning.

I think it's really, I don't know, symbolic that we're at the Oval right now. So Ben Stokes has not played a test, I think, has not played a test match on this ground since the Ashes in 2023. He was injured for the Sri Lanka game in 2024, and he was injured for the India test match. Last year and he won't play now. A lot of us think that Ben Stokes's career is moving towards that 5th Ashes Test against Australia here next summer, and now there is quite a big doubt as to whether or not he makes it. So what will English cricket look like in a year? How can English cricket rebuild trust? I don't know, or have a happily ever after? Well, is it Ben Stokes coming back and finishing his career with his hands on the urn on this ground. I don't know if Ben Stokes is the sort of cricketer or character where he would have that farewell, you know, waving to the crowd, the like, you know, the one that Stuart Broad did and so many others have had. Well, we'll find out, won't we?

Another week in English cricket, another normal week in English cricket. Thank you very much, Stephan. Thank you to Vedeshan Ahanthaarajah of ESPN Cricinfo as well. That second test without Ben Stokes and Gus Atkinson gets underway 17th of June here at the Oval, coverage across the BBC. And a reminder, there's another fairly major event starting this week. Friday evening, it is the beginning of the Women's T20 World Cup at Edgbaston, England against Sri Lanka. We'll have full ball-by-ball coverage of every single game of the tournament. Promises to be a brilliant few weeks, and we will bring it all to you here. On Test Match Special.

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