Notts win County Championship & the future of the domestic game

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You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Hello, I'm Kevin Howells. Welcome to the TMS podcast from Trent Bridge where Nottinghamshire have been crowned county champions for 2025. It's their first for 15 years. I'll be alongside Dave Bracegirdle to discuss the achievement. Plus we look ahead to the future of the county championship. We hear from the chief executive of the pca, the Professional Cricketers association. That's Daryl Mitchell, who can't rule out players strikes after the club's rejected a notion to lower the amount of games from next season. And also the England and Wales Cricket Board Managing Director competitions and major events, Neil Snowball, who tells us of the ECB's involvement in in the process.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

So 2010, the 15 years in between roller coaster doesn't touch the sides, does it? Of of the journey to get here now that 15 year journey stayed in.

Division 1 until 2016. Really poor year in 2016. It was. It was McNeil's last year as head coach. Finished bottom of Division 1. They were relegated down to Division 2. Peter Moores had been here as consultant in 2016 and they made the change that winter. Mick became Director of Cricket. That is not necessarily hands on every day more responsibility for the entire Trent Bridge cricket product. If you like the women's side, the second eleven, the academy and whatever. And obviously Peter Moore's with his vast experience as a two county county championship winner. Of course we've not really mentioned that this is his fourth title. Peter Moore's and he was the first one, I think, to, to win it with two different counties. Now he's won it with three different counties. But he took over in 2017. They got promoted straight away, then went on a little bit of a poor run. 18 and 19. And then of course we got into. Into Covid. In fact, 19 again finished at the bottom of the table. Should have been relegated, but Covid, 2020 and 2021, the regional thing, they didn't have divisions one and division two. And then 2022 they decided, well, we'll set up two divisions again, but we'll go on the finishing positions in 2019. So Knott's found themselves back in the second division. They won it in 2022. In the last couple of years they've just sort of been down towards the bottom of the table, just flirting with the, the nether regions.

When, when you say things didn't go well, what was that sequence that ended with that amazing catch over at Derby?

Yeah, 20, 20 something matches without a win.

Crazy.

Two years.

Yeah. Yeah, but you're right to. And I made mention of peter at the 5, 30 minute. So it's Sussex a couple back around the early 2000s.

2003, 2006 with Sussex. Peter Moore's won the title. 2011 with Lancashire.

Yes, it was a year later. And of course he, he was at Old Trafford when Knott's lifted back in 2010. That's right as well. They've signed him up for another couple of years to be here. There were other counties who wanted to talk to Peter, wanted him to go. You can understand why. That, that, that, that might be Hasib Ahmed. What a journey for him as well. England there when he's playing with Lancashire. It was all going then, Barbie wrong for him. His contribution speaks for itself, I guess with his fourth championship century this season, he's in this race with Sibley for who's going to end up with the highest runs in, in Division one.

His contribution, Dave, magnificent. I think he's come as a captain as much as, as much as anything. Obviously his runs is his, is his currency. You know, that's, that's what he's there for. To get runs predominantly at the top of the order with his century. He scored more runs this season than any other season in his career. As you say, he's up there. I think he's just behind Sibley. I'll do the, do the sums tonight for leading run scorer in the country. But whether you come 1st, 2nd or 15th, you've had a good Year with the batter. He's had a terrific year, but it's his, it's his leadership. I think last year wasn't necessarily a failure, but nor was it a raging success. It was just some indifferent performances and, and you know, a few matches they, they perhaps could have won ended in draws. A few matches they could have drawn, they were defeated. The only two matches they won were against the, the two relegated sides who performed poorly. Lancashire here and Kent down at Canterbury. So they were, the, the two wins they got were comfortable and you know, you, you'd have to say that wasn't necessarily down to the skipper but, but this year, definitely a definite coming of age, coming of captain. It's always a telling moment when you can look out on the field at any point in time and recognise and know who the captain of a side is, who the leader is, who's the one making decisions out there. And this year I think more than last, it's been, it's been obvious and I think he's been getting better and better and better. And I thought last week he was superb. The most high profile match of I think all these players careers outside test cricket. Last week at the oval against Surrey. A real top versus second battle and I think he was superb. He was calm, he made sensible decisions. He made decisions I didn't necessarily agree with at the time, but were proved to be right. No surprise there. I'd have had Liam Patterson white on earlier, it left him off. I wouldn't have brought Josh Tong back as quickly as he did. He did everything he did last week turn to gold and I think he's, he's a tremendous ambassador for himself, his family, for the Muslim community. I, I don't know, I would just say off the top of my head, I would imagine he's the first Muslim county champion winning skipper. That will mean a lot to him. It will mean a lot to his, his community and his faith, I'm sure. But above all else, he's, he's a great teammate to those boys down there just assembling in a huddle. They all respect him, they follow him, they, you know, they've really bought into everything that him and Peter Moore as a, as a duo have, you know, have tried to bring about this season and you know, I, I just couldn't be more in awe of his ability as a batsman. First and foremost, the runs he scored this year as a fell and as a captain and they've, they've just established a great relationship, him and Peter. And if anybody was going to Beat Surrey. I'm just glad it's not this year and I'm glad it's those two at the helm.

Dave spoke to the Nottinghamshire captain, Hassi Bemid, after Notts got over the line to win the County Championship.

That's many, many congratulations. County Championship winning skipper. What a day.

Yeah, amazing day. I guess we knew what was at stake today and the tasks we had coming into it, but to go out there and. And produce something like that, the different emotions and watching Liam and Kyle get us over the line there was truly outstanding. And then to finish it off with three poles in four overs is, yeah, really special.

Last week, of course, was hugely significant. It got you in the position that you're in this week, so you knew what you needed to do. But today in particular just couldn't have gone any better.

Yeah, it's one of those days that. Yeah. Will last long in the memory. It's. Yeah, I guess you just. You just have to look at the. The emotions at the time KV hit that boundary. The crowd, you know, everyone up on the balcony and the two boys in the middle. Yeah, it's the sort of stuff that will. Yeah. That people will hold dear to them for a long period of time.

Some things in life seem to be absolutely certain. And you getting 100 today, I felt was one of them.

Do you know what it was? Yeah, I feel extremely grateful and thankful. You know, it was actually quite challenging. Early doors against a newborn, I think you needed a little bit of luck to get through and thankfully I had that. I had that today. And, yeah, you know, the partnerships that we had better myself, firstly, I think was. Was important. I think just to settle a few nerves maybe. And then the partnership with Joel again, was. Was a really important one. So, yeah, to be involved with those was special.

So little shots of the. The balcony once the. The moment arrived. What could you take from. From that? What were you saying? What were the emotions on the balcony?

Yeah, I guess, you know, when I initially sat on the balcony, we probably still needed 60 or 50 or 60 runs, so there were a few nerves at that time and. Yeah, and then watching Kyle and Liam put together that partnership felt like more and more people were starting to kind of join that little section on the balcony. And then, yeah, obviously when the. When the moment came, it was just incredibly special. Felt like a. Felt like a reward for, you know, 14 games where it felt like we've done, you know, a lot of things right, thankfully. And, yeah, boys should be really proud of that.

You were nailed on always to Get a thousand runs this season, which you did you. Your captaincy last year. Knott's only won two matches. Lancashire were poor here, you won that. Kent were poor down at Canterbury, you won that. I'm not saying there are any question marks over your captaincy, but did you think there were things you had to do differently this year, or has it just naturally progressed?

Honestly, I feel like it's just naturally progressed. I think there was an acceptance that there was obviously quite a transition last year with two new leaders at the club losing a lot of big players. And that's not to say, you know, I wasn't still learning on the job. Of course I was. And I did say, I think might have been back end of last year. Until you do the job, it's difficult to know exactly what goes into it. So I think you do naturally grow through experience. And maybe having that year under my belt did help coming into the season. But, yeah, you know, I was also, at the same time, confident, both within myself, but also the group of players that we had. And it was definitely something that I knew was something that we were very capable of doing.

Right.

Since April, your head coach has been confident that you were good enough to go on and win the County Championship title. And somehow he's managed to get that across to the entire team. Did you always believe, you know, we're.

Good enough to be top dogs?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think we've got. I honestly believe we've got a squad of players that are really highly skilled. And I've just mentioned there, we've got some amazing people. We've got a group full of amazing people as well. So I think one thing that we're really proud of is not only skill coming to the fore, but character coming to the fore this season as well. You know, there have been some challenges and tests along the way. None more so in the last couple of weeks, actually, down at Surrey and Worcester. And, you know, the mental toughness and the character the boys showed to get us over the line in both those games was, yeah, speaks testament loads to. To the type of people that we've got in our squad. And, yeah, long been luck. Continue.

You've been a great inspiration and a real leader for everybody. Everybody loves the way you go about your cricket, but your faith, you a devout Muslim, what will this mean? I think you're the first Muslim County Championship skiffer to lift the trophy.

Yeah, I guess that's a nice thing to have to my name. You know, I think everyone knows how much my faith means to Me and how important it is for me and I guess the acceptance I've had since I've joined the club has been amazing for me as well. It's something that I deeply appreciate every single day. And yeah, ultimately I'm, you know, I'm just another member of the, of the squad who's extremely privileged to be leading the group of players that we've got and the club and yeah, I guess they both go really well together.

Privileged to have seen you in some happy times, but I've never seen you smile wider than when you were leading your team off at the end there.

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think exactly that, you know, that was just pure pride and joy at the, you know, what we've been able to achieve. And I think every single person that's contributed, that's not just the 11 players that are playing this game. That's, you know, a number of different people who aren't involved in this game as well. They should be extremely proud of what they've done.

You're only the sixth different Nottinghamshire captain to lift the trophy. You should be so, so proud. Many congratulations.

Okay, thanks, Dave.

Appreciate my thanks to Dave Bracegirdle. Now let's switch our attention to the future of the County Championship. PCA Chief executive Daryl Mitchell didn't rule out the possibility of players taking strike action after proposals to reform the County Championship were rejected on Tuesday, counties voted to retain the current two divisional structure with each team playing 14 matches rather than changing to a 12 team top flight of 13 matches per side. I spoke to Daryl earlier this week. Daryl, thank you very much for joining us. I imagine your inbox has been or continue to be very busy, if not a little busier over the last 24 hours or so. First and foremost, can you give me your reaction to the vote which is in favor of 14 championship matches remaining, at least for next season?

Yeah, I mean, obviously we were obviously on the other side of that in wanting in change. I think overall riding emotion is probably disappointment that the game couldn't come together to find a solution of the issues. Obviously. I think everyone pretty much at the start of this process was united across the board that change was required and that status quo probably wasn't, wasn't where the, the game wanted to be. But unfortunately a lot of polarized opinions across county network led to not finding a solution that was appealing to everyone. Majority.

Yes. I mean, we understand now and this will be getting at more and more that it was 9, 4, 9 against, split down the middle. Have you heard that much from Your any of your members from your members in the 24 hours or so after the, the announcement's been made?

Yeah, I think that we have a reps player. Obviously every county has a player rep. We have a WhatsApp group with that and that was pretty animated last night. I think it's, it's fair to say. I think the overwhelming sort of opinion was it's disheartening really that the the players or the majority of players haven't been listened to. So yeah, again echoing my my thoughts from earlier. Disappointed at the result in the main. But yeah disheartened that the the player views weren't weren't taken into consideration enough by nine out of the, out of the 18 chairs.

Sorry to be pedantic. You say disappointed that, that sounds not particularly strong, Darryl.

Yeah, well I think disappointed and disheartened was the phrase I lose and I think that's, that's probably a fair fair reflection. I mean we have got of the proposal that was put forward. I think it was a 135 split amongst the players itself. There were 13 in favor of the, of the 13 match proposal and, and 5 groups of players that weren't. That was the poll that, that we did with the, with the player reps. But yeah, I think, I think, I think disappointed is is something that if the override in emotion that I the sense I got from the, from the player reps group last night and like I say, disheartening that the players, the majority of the players haven't been listened to.

Some people who are in favor of the status quo and some who've adamant that there ain't nothing to be fixed here. It's, it's all okay. Will be I think very interested in the five that actually are happy with the status quo because if, if the players can't agree, how can the counties agree?

Well, I think it's obviously I think we've got 600 odd odd playing members. I think we've got 450 male playing members. Obviously opinion is going to be. Is going to differ on, on what the game should look like. I think that was the 13:5 was on the proposed 13 games. I think it was slightly stronger on the, the original sort of 12 game proposal that was put forward in favor of that. So yeah, I mean our overall statistics are they, they've been quoted many times haven't they across the, across the media over the last sort of 12 to 18 months. But the overriding view from players was that the county schedule is not fit for purpose that is, that is the reality of it. And change was, was definitely sought by the majority of our members.

That's interesting what you say about the 12 and 13 because it was certainly made clear to me that some felt that the 13 was a compromise. Now it baffles me in negotiation what's wrong with compromise? But apparently it's not to be accepted that. So some of your members were not happy 13 because they are adamant it should be 12.

Yeah, I think that's definitely the case. I think, I think through this process I think we realized that there is need for compromise. There are obviously polarized opinions across the game. Some counties were wanted 10 championship matches. Some were very adamant that 14 was the, was the minimum they wanted. And some were sort of flitting in the middle, weren't they? We realized that we probably needed to be agile and, and be and compromise on certain things. So from our side, the, from going from 12 to the 13 match, again looking at the schedules that was a big improvement. We even obviously were supportive of in that case to get something over the line and through or in sports of an extra 2, 2 one day cup games in the, in the hundred period to try and give those counties that complain about not having enough content during the hundred window an extra home game during that period at least so that would give them something to, to have. So actually the overall decrease in that 13 match schedule was just two days of cricket. And that was something that we were willing to accept based mainly on the fact that the, the scheduling was so, was so much better. I think what we've been sort of pretty consistent on from the start was it's not just a volume of cricket issue. It's more the intensity of, of periods within the season. And looking at the season next year, the 14 game option, you've got seven blocks of championship games to start the season in seven weeks. I think every team will play six games in that period which is, which is certainly manageable, if not perfect, but certainly manageable. We're pretty happy with that. I think where the issue comes now is following the 100 next year there's going to be six championship games that all counters will play and the one day cup final during that period, which also includes two games in nine days in one period as well with only one day of travel essentially between the, between the two matches, which is of grave concern to us from a welfare point of. And I don't think anybody could argue that that is, that is high performance or that is even safe really in terms particularly for, for Fast bowlers.

This can easily be presented as a players versus members issue. Members who, why, if you're a member, why would you support anything that gave you less of what you truly enjoy, which is a day watching cricket? Why would you vote to have fewer days? So do some of your players see it as players versus members?

I don't think, I don't think it's as simple as that. I think, I think some members that I've spoken to actually will understand that obviously and they do consider player welfare an important issue as well. Obviously they members want to watch cricket. I'd like to think that the majority of members would like to watch high quality cricket and players performing at the best of their ability. Which in, in the situation that I just highlighted a minute ago, two games in nine days, that's virtually impossible. So I think, I think, I wouldn't like to put it as a players versus member issue. I don't think that's the case. I think there's probably opinions that are split across both members and within players actually as well. But I think ultimately it's the, it's the counties that, that have the votes and they decide on what the, what the structure is. And there's obviously a very divided opinion there because it was a complete split in terms of nine. Nine is the result that we're hearing. And like I said before, there's some really polarized opinions across counties and county chairs of, of, of, of what the, the structure should look like. I think if you look at the potential fix for this for next year, I don't think anybody, we're in the same position as we were before this process where nobody's particularly happy with it. So it's a shame. I'm sure this will probably rumble on further into the future.

We'll return to the future in a moment's time, if we may. A small number of chief executives supposedly, I presume, wanting to reduce the number of games. I guess they would argue amongst perhaps several reasons, only one main one, wanting to support your organization, Daryl, in having a reduction in number of games, approached you and said you need to go public and threaten strike action. Now those numbers I'm going to chuck out. Three, three stroke, four, something like that. Why didn't you do that?

I mean ultimately that we will be led by the players on that. At that stage. I don't think that there was the appetite for that type of action amongst the playing group. As I said before, the WhatsApp group last night was pretty animated. There's some pretty high emotions within that and it wouldn't completely rule it out in the future but I don't think, I don't think that's where we'd like to get to. I think there's. Obviously it would have a negative impact on the counties. It would have a negative impact on the game which is not something that we'd be seeking to do and I think it's not really been something that we've discussed in great detail with the reps or with the. Of the wide wider playing group. It's also something that it's very easy to say about strike action or industrial action of some kind. It's a little bit more difficult to, to execute and put forward because there are other implications of players not being paid during that period. For example is 1, the amount of members that you need to vote for industrial action and be in favor of industrial action and at this stage I don't think it's something that we'd look to encourage but to be clear you're.

Not, you're not ruling out the possibility of strike action.

I don't think that's. We are a union. I don't think any union would rule out the possibility of strike action if their members want it and obviously we are completely at the behest of our members on that and we will have those conversations if they're deemed necessary by, by the player reps and by our members.

There was an interesting interview that Ollie Slipper did. O is the. The chair of, of Surrey. It sort of backs up a little of what you're saying Daryl. This was something that was done I think back on the 11th of September he said there was a WhatsApp group poll they carried out of their players. It came back 31 nil in favor of maintaining 14 matches. Does that surprise you?

Not, not entirely. I think sur were certainly one of the dress rooms that were in favor of not changing. I think there's probably a number of reasons for that. A they've got a huge squad. I think they've used well over 20 odd players in the championship this year, haven't they? And opportunities for those players is, is important. They're very unique case. Sorry, aren't they in terms of the size of their squads and the size of their. Of their resource essentially. I think obviously having won the championship in the last three years as well that may have had an impact on that. Probably a little bit surprised in terms of 13310 did you say? That's probably a little bit surprising because that's very different to the anonymous poll that we did where people we get them to scan a QR code and fill in surveys anonymously. The result from that the Surrey pre season meeting was different to that but I guess when you're on a WhatsApp group with Hill potentially senior players, captains I don't know who was in the group Chief executives director, cricket etc where you're the ones who make decisions on your future and your contracts you're probably more likely to toe the line with the. With the line of the club I would have thought than than put your your head above the parapet.

Ollie Slipper also within this interview he referred to the timing of the vote Daryl because you talk about the size of squad there that's sorry which is you know comparably more than than many others says the timing's not great because got all this money coming into the game from the 100 which at some point nobody knows when could make its way into allowing clubs all 18 to increase the size of their squads. Have you had any reassurance or any conversation with the ecb? Because it's still they that hold that money at the moment isn't it that that is something which is on the agenda to increase the size of squads with the money that's coming into the game through the hundred I think it's not.

It's not obviously there's guardrails being put in place around that money isn't there? So initially obviously the they're not allowed to spend it directly on. On player salaries for example. I think it's reserved for. For debt and revenue generation generating sorry products to enhance the sort of club's revenue and build a sustainable business. So I'm not sure cash reserves is another thing that's been talked about that money could be spent on so I'm not sure that there's a direct impact on that but I think if Ollie's encouraging increased squad sizes and maybe minimum squad sizes to increase across the game I think that's a positive thing. I think that would be something that you'd be in favour of and would help manage those pinch periods that we were talking about earlier. Like I say those sort of two games in nine days for example then okay, if you can use two different bowling attacks, four seamers in each each one that don't have to play back to back games then I think that would be a positive which obviously Surrey can do with their squad. If the rest of the the counters had a squad the similar size and could manage workloads better then that could only be a positive thing. I think that we talked about moving forward. It is a little bit of a case of back to the drawing board now, I think, and things like that probably do need to be discussed. I mean obviously counties previously have mentioned I know they're keen on playing matches behind the hundred. Perhaps that's something that could be discussed further moving forward. Championship matches behind championship matches, the hundreds. But I know a couple of counties have been pretty keen on that. I guess that would solve the the problem of content for for the non hundred hosts during that period as well. There's obviously going going back to probably the Strauss of Europe or even before that it was mooted about playing championship matches abroad to to try and alleviate that pressure and intensity, wasn't it? Again, perhaps that's something that could be revisited, although I can't imagine county members would be particularly in favor of that. But there's definitely things, there's definitely the need to sort of look at things and explore options and think outside the box a little bit.

Well, we'll be hearing from the ECB's managing director of Competitions and Major events, Neil Snowball very shortly. But first make sure you're subscribed to the TMS podcast. There's plenty coming your way with the Women's World cup right around the corner. Every ball of every match from India and Sri Lanka starting on 30 September and England begin their campaign, the first tournament led by head coach Charlotte Edwards and the captain Nat Siver Brunt on the 3rd of October against South Africa, which you can hear on BBC Sounds with a match starting at 10:30 in the morning.

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Very grateful that Neil Snowball, Managing Director of Competitions and Major Events has kindly agreed to come up and chat with us here. Big talking point this week. The vote that was was carried out somehow some way, but we got to find out about it on Tuesday night just ahead of this final round of matches which were the 18 first class counties coming to an agreement 99 as it turned out to be, but it needed 12 for any change to be made to the season from next season and this is all to do well, it's so many nuances to this really but basically a lot of the argument was, was focused on how many games of County Championship cricket would be played. I know it involved T20, we might come on to that but I want to specifically talk about the championship. Would it be 14 or would it be 13? That the second option, as was the final vote was, was for 13, having initially been one of the options on the table would have been 12, 12 matches. So that sets out the broad thing Neil, from, from your point of view, can you explain to me to begin with what the ECB's role in this was? Because it has been presented as a over to you county cricket, sort yourselves out, come back to us and tell us what you want. But surely the ECB had some involvement.

Yes, very much so. I mean, so there's quite a lot in there, so let me try and sort of break that down. So first of all, you're absolutely right. This has been a really long and thorough process to do a complete review of the men's domestic plane program. Obviously the women's domestic playing programme went through a thorough review over the last two years and we'll come on to that, I'm sure. But this was specifically about the men's domestic playing program of the three main competitions, so the County Championship, the Blast and the One Day cup because they're all very much interlinked And I think the starting point from a combination of the ecb, the professional counties and the PCA was that the current schedule didn't really work and it didn't give the right balance between the competitions and also there was a very strong voice, as you know, from the players, that it wasn't really sustainable and the right balance between, you know, play, rest and practice. So that's the spirit which we went into. And the ECB's role was absolutely to coordinate that, to facilitate those discussions which we've done right the way through from. Well, it really kicked off in March when we formed a. A steering group to oversee it. But quite rightly the whole thing has been overseen by the Professional Game Committee which is made of which is made up of a combination of non execs and execs from the professional game and the PCA and the ecb. So that was one of the really good things that came out of the very thorough governance review that we ran. If you remember a couple of years ago, we went through a very thorough review, the governance of the professional game and one of the things that came out of that was the formation of the Professional Game committee, which Mark McCafferty chairs and has done a fantastic job running that, and then that ultimately oversees the process.

Sorry to interrupt. Just mustn't assume on too much. Mark is also chair of Warwickshire.

Warwickshire, yes. Yeah. So I think the view was that there should be a serving county chair that chairs the Professional Game Committee and then anything to do with the professional gain committee is overseen by that group, which is effectively a subcommittee of the board. But in terms of the review, so it was very clear at the beginning that this needs to be led by the game. It's a decision for the game. It's a decision for the 18 professional counties. But the PCA have been involved every step of the way and the ECB have been involved every step of the way. But ultimately it's for the game to decide that the county decide what they want to play. And back in July, there was a vote on the Blast, which came out with, I think, a very positive outcome, which we'll come on to. And then when it came to the championship.

Tell us that one, though, the Blast. Just so that we know what the Blast.

So. So in terms of the. The Blast. The Blast is a. Is a terrific competition. It's from a financial point of view, it's the most financially viable competition of the three men's competitions. I mean, this year we had 712,000 attendees to the group matches, which is up on last year, and we had a record number attend the quarterfinals and the final. So that's really good, but it needs to be better and we wanted to invest more in that competition. So. But one of the challenges is because we were playing 14 rounds of matches first of all, that meant we had to split it either side of the hundred. So you'll be familiar. You've got the group stages before the hundred and then the knockout and the final is after the hundred, which is not ideal because you, for a number of reasons, you lose the momentum. A lot of the players, overseas players move on. So we wanted to make sure it was played in one continual block and finish before the hundred. But in order to do that, you had to play fewer games. So the decision that was made back in July by the counties was to play 12 games instead of 14, to move from two groups of north south, which we've had for a number of years now, into three groups. So there will be three groups of six, one in the north, one in the central region and then one in the south, and we'll play 12 games instead of 14. And that enables two main things. One is to complete the competition before the start of the hundred. But also one of the main requests very, very strongly from the PCA was to try to do away with these back to back games in the Blast. And that was one of the main things that they stressed right at the beginning. Because this year you'll be familiar with the schedule. There are a lot of back to backs where they're playing in consecutive days. So by reducing the number of games and then looking at the schedule, we. We can't reduce them altogether, but we can reduce them significantly and that's one of the main outcomes of that.

So are there any back to backs?

There will be some. There are likely to be some, because you could get away with them altogether. If you said we're going to play every game on a Friday and a Sunday, because then you would. But certain counties like to play on Saturday, some like to play on Thursdays, and so you sort of mix. So what we feel this year, and we're working through the schedule right now, is, is that we will reduce them, but we can't remove them altogether.

So that sounds like a compromise to me. The word compromise has been used within the discussions over the county championship in a way that I've never quite heard the word compromise used before, in a very negative fashion. It strikes me, and we've had not a lot of response from the counties over following that vote. They pretty much want to go to ground over it. But it strikes me as if counties didn't get everything they wanted from the discussions, they weren't going to budge and therefore everything stays the same in Gloucestershire. The chair has come out and said, look, we voted not for change, but we don't want the status quo. What do you want? It sounds to me as if it has been a heck of a job to try and sort that out. And one chief executive sent me a text message saying, this proves county cricket is ungovernable.

Well, I don't know about that. It's challenging, but I don't think it's ungovernable. And I think we've seen that with a lot of the improvements that have come from that governance review that we said, and as I said, the formation of things like the professional game committee, if we take a step back, I think the Blast, there was a very strong collective view on the Blast that it's a good competition, that could be better, that we needed to make some changes. People were a little bit tired of just having the north south group and we were playing Too many games. So there was a real collective effort to reduce that. But even saying that, and I will come back to the county championship, but even saying that, there are some counties who rely very heavily on the revenues from that. So if you take someone like Taunton or Essex, they sell out seven games. So for them to say actually we're going to reduce the number of games, that was a leap of faith. But a lot of counties felt that that was the right thing to do. So there was a real collective sense around the Blast. The championship is, is then it's, it's, it's sort of multifunctional in terms of what it does and there are very different views. So if you, if you start off with the number of games, and this wasn't just about the volume, the whole point of this review wasn't just about the number of games, it was about the quality of the competition. We want it to be the best red ball competition in the world. It's already pretty good, but we wanted it to be better. And part of that was around again this term, best v. Best, but also having a better balance between play, rest and practice. So. But right from the start there were a number of counties who said, we do like playing 14 rounds of games and we don't want to move. So some people set that out right from the beginning and I respect that. There were other counties who said, actually we do feel it should be reduced and we'd like to go down to 12. Some even said we'd like it to go down to 10. So again, that was their view. And there were others who said, we think we want to freshen it up and move away from the traditional 10, eight divisions and we'd like to freshen it up.

At one point, chair of one county said to me he wasn't convinced that some of the other chairs at the counties really knew what they were voting on. And this bugs me a little bit. This comes back to the governance and what's going on. Because the playoff final was part of the option at one point, but then that changed and as far as I'm aware, it changed some weeks ago. Well, to, to the idea that it would still be first past the post, the most points and it would be from each of those two lots of six contending for the, for, for the championship, that the top three from each would then play each other in the Super 6. So it would still be a championship which was won by the team which had the most points. Yet still on the 11th of September, Ollie Slipper on an Interview and interview he did, which went out on Surrey tv. He's still talking about one match to decide the champions. And I'm thinking that was out of the window I don't know how many weeks ago Now, Ollie May, you know, I'm not saying that he misled anybody, but I'm sure that's not even on the table. This is what bugs me about how straight and how, what's the word I'm looking for, how, you know, how well managed the whole process was, really. Because it seems to me as if different people in different places were having different conversations.

Well, they were, because there have been lots of conversations. Look, in terms of the process, I think you could say. Well, you would say that because you've been part of it. I think this has been an incredibly thorough process. If I think back to the start, where we set up a really good steering group with a good mix of CEOs on that, with the PCA, led brilliantly by Steve Elworthy, because we wanted a county to lead it. And that group has put in a massive shift over the course of the summer. You've got Mark, who chairs the professional going committee, who is also put in a huge amount of time and effort, talking, listening, as we all have. And I think that's about respect because we could have put ourselves in a room, come up with a plan and said, right, here's the plan, and then spent two or three months just trying to beat people into submission. That's not the way it's worked and that's not the way it should work. What we've done is, is have collectively is a lot of discussions about a lot of different options and that. And as I said, it's multi dimensional because you've got. How many games of cricket is it 14? Is it 13? Is it 12? And also what's the format? And then what's the promotion, relegation? It's, it's, it is almost like three dimensional chess. And everybody has strong views because people care passionately about the county championship. That's a really good thing. The fact that it has gone on for quite a long time and because we've considered so many, it's because people really care about the county Championship. Now, what we did, you're quite right, it wasn't that long ago where There were still two options. One was with 13 games, but with a. Sorry, 12 games but with a winner takes all. Final little bit like we did back in the Bob Willis Trophy, but slightly different, but that would end. Some people loved the idea and some people Hated that idea. And then the other idea was the one you've described where you have 13 games, you play almost like 10 regular season games and then you have a sort of a Super Sixes at the end, but you take all your points forward. And there were a number of counties that really liked that. But ultimately something had to be put on the table at the end and there was a view that there were a number of counties didn't like the one off final because it was too much on that one game and it would probably be played quite late in the, in the, in the season. But others really like that. But we decided that wasn't going to fly. So that's where we came up with the proposal. And the, and the reason that proposal was originally discounted was because we didn't think it could be scheduled from a fixturing point of view because if you think about it at the moment we schedule all the fixtures before the start of the season. With that model you'd have to schedule those final rounds after, you know, after round 10. But we found a way that we could do that. It would be a challenge, but we found a way we could do it. So that was what was presented. And then alongside that, because we should also talk about the One Day cup, we also felt there was an opportunity to play slightly more games in the One Day cup alongside the hundred because that's group games. So that was all part of it. So that was the proposal that was put forward and that proposal was for.

The Super Sixes, wasn't it?

Yes, yeah.

So that was, that didn't involve a one off match, that was well gone yet still it was being talked about and still being presented and totally stress here. I'm not saying deliberately but the, the narrative was still being put out there to the public that that was a playoff final which had actually been discussed a time ago. Yeah, I, I, I stressed not meaningful but you know, not meaning to, but that's what was happening.

So I, what, what I do know is that again in the past some of the counties have been accused of not engaging with their, their members and I, I can say this time round there's been a huge amount of engagement through members forums, through other formats as well. So the counties have talked to and listened to their player groups. Again, the players have had a really strong voice this time around. Again not just through the PCA but within their clubs as well. So all of that's gone into a sort of six month long process. A lot of people have put in a lot of time and effort. And when it came down to it, it was sort of, as you said, pretty much split down the middle, which would suggest that there isn't yet a format that people can all rally round to take that forward. So for next year we stay with 14 rounds of championship cricket. We stay with a one day cup as it is and we've got it. We'll have a new invigorated blast from next year.

Well, my thanks to Neil for his time. That's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode, including no balls with Cape Cross and and Alex Hartley. Plus the Women's Cricket World cup right around the corner. BBC sounds live commentary of every ball of every match that starts on Tuesday with India taking on Sri Lanka, which gets underway at 10:30 Tuesday morning. We'll be live in Gurawati for that. Then we'll be there again on Friday as England begin their campaign against South Africa. Meantime, thank you for listening. We'll speak to you next time.

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