Pope on the pod and Aggers in the nets.

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BBC Radio 5 live.

I'm Stefan Chemal. Welcome to the Test Match special podcast from Perth where we're counting down to that first Ashes test on Friday. We'll be hearing from Ollie Pope on the pressures of securing the number three slot in the England team with all the talk around Jacob Bethel, plus his reflections on losing the vice captaincy. We'll also get reaction to the Josh Hazelwood injury from former Australia fast bowler Jason Gillespie. And I'll also be joined by Jonathan Agnew to assess what England's options might be for the first Test and to share some memories of past Ash's trips to Perth.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

So welcome back to Perth, where the anticipation continues to grow ahead of that first Ashes test on Friday. We're starting to see more England supporters arrive in the city. Just a smattering of replica shirts on the streets. Local newspaper full of Ashes stories already on the front and back pages. The Western Australian Sunday Times has a full page picture of Stuart Broadway on the front page, the headline broadside. He's given an interview to the paper today. On the back page, the headline is Quicksand. Some of pictures of some of the Australian fast bowlers out with injury Pat Cumins and Josh Hazelwood. Remember, they're out of the first test as head shot with crosses through them for England. They're having two days off following the end of that tour game against the England Lions at Lila Kill yesterday, boosted by the news that Mark Wood's hamstring scan didn't show any issues. He'll trained as planned ahead of the first Test. England kick in again in the nets on Tuesday. Other positives to come out of that game at Lila Kill And Ben Stokes, the captain, he took six wickets, made a half century. That was his first cricket since July. And O Pope now he scored a century and 90. He cemented his place in the Test team ahead of Jacob Bethel at number three. And Pope has been speaking to Adam Mountford about how pleased he was to get some time in the middle.

Definitely, I think everyone's pretty aware that the conditions are very different but at the same time just to obviously having a month, probably a month and a half since my last game. So it's just nice to spend some time in the middle. Done a bit of work on my game, tidied up a few areas so they feel real good out there. So hopefully, yeah, I can translate it.

What sort of work you've been doing.

Just a couple of little technical bits. No, I'm not going to go into it too much before the series but yeah, just a couple small technical bits just to smooth out a few areas.

But in terms of finding that sort of form, I mean in the middle, even though the surface was different, it will be different. There is something about getting runs on the board, isn't there, for confidence?

Yeah, absolutely. I always take a bit away from warm up games. Even if I did miss out then there's always something to take away from it. So for me, yeah, I'm someone who likes time in the middle just to get myself ready for a series. I've kind of had it in the past in different series I played in. So yeah, I found it really beneficial.

And from a team point of view, obviously a win against the Lions, several people managed to contribute. How was the sort of spirit in the team about how that went with.

That warm up game? Yeah, it was good. I think it was important especially for our bowlers just to get time on the feet and get used to bowling. You can't really replicate that whether a batter as well, but I think especially for the bowlers and obviously they've all bowled good amount of overs. I think most of them got through 4, 3, 4, 5 spells over the three days which is really benefic. Everyone's come out, I think all good, which is obviously a bonus. But yeah, really beneficial for us and just kind of getting used to tactics we might find ourselves on. Everyone knows The Optus isn't going to be like that, but as the series goes on, we might find ourselves on a flatter pitch at times where we need to find ways of taking wickets. So, yeah, it's always good to sort of tap back into those things. It's been said a lot about our preparation, and I think this is kind of how we've done it in the last away series that we've had, and we've had actually a lot of success in the first games of these big series. We won in Pakistan twice both times around. We won our first Test in India and went to New Zealand and had similar preparation and won that first Test. So we know that's what gets us ready for a game. And come Friday, we'll be as prepared as we possibly can be for that first Test.

And a boost with that news about Mark Wood.

Yeah, absolutely. I think everyone knows the pace he can bowl and the skills that he's got, so for us to have him ready and raring to go is a real bonus.

And just back to yourself, you know, you'll be aware there's always talk before every series about selection, that sort of thing.

You know, the talk. Is it Bethel?

Is it Pope? Do you think you've obviously done enough to cement your place for that Test match on Friday?

Oh, I mean, I. I hope so. I've. I've got so used to kind of those conversations being had over and kind of seeing them. Obviously, I don't go out looking for them, but it's pretty hard to avoid sometimes, and I'm so used to sort of seeing it, and I've learned just to focus on my game and I'm just trying to become a better player every time I step out, and that's all I can do. So fingers crossed to get the nod. But all the trust is in those guys and respect the decision they make. It's been good for me in a way that I've learned when I've kind of felt under the most pressure. I've been able to deliver, I guess, especially in that Headingley Test. So I know that I can kind of sort of learn how to deal with that and how to get the best out of myself at times. But look, everyone wants to be the first name on the team sheet, that's pretty clear. But at the same time, we're playing international sport and I've got to remind myself that sometimes as well, that there's always going to be someone on your heel if you. If you haven't quite scored the volume of Runs at points that you wouldn't have liked, that you would have liked to. So, yeah, for me, look again, I don't look into it too much now. I'm learning to kind of live with it and just put my best foot forward. As long as I'm a better player than I was in every series that I play, I think that's all I can do. I'll try and use the pressures that I'm under and make sure I get the best out of myself. And, yeah, I think I'm a far better player than I was the last time I came out to Australia. I've got those experiences behind me and I know how I want to go about it. So fingers crossed that can deliver with a lot of runs. I got dropped pretty quickly in the last series and. And I mean, rightly so, at the time I probably was. I just wasn't as clear how I wanted to play. I didn't know my game well enough and I didn't know the conditions like I thought I might have known them. So they're things I've banked. And also just playing in big series as well, obviously the summer was a big series against India and it's just growing up a little bit and getting used to playing, playing these big games and putting in big, big, big scores, hopefully. But, yeah, for me, I've got complete clarity on how I want to go about batting on each of these pitches. Yeah, hopefully. If I do get the nod on Friday, then it's going to be an amazing series to be a part of.

Someone who won't be in Perth on Friday is Josh Hazelwood. What do you make of that news?

Yeah, I mean, look, he's a fantastic bowler. A team without him, obviously, that they'll miss having him, but I'm sure they'll have guys ready to go. I think we saw in the summer when Bumra was injured, we didn't change anything. We did, but it gives other guys opportunity to step up. So we're not going to. We're not going to take our foot off anything and sort of, as you'd expect, take it easy. But, yeah, he's a fantastic bowler and for them not to have him is obviously a loss for them, but it's not something we look into too much.

We haven't spoken to you since the change in vice captaincy for England. What did you make of that?

Yeah, look, I respect the decision they've made and if they think that's the right thing for the team going forward, and obviously brookie, captaining the one day stuff and T20 stuff as well, then that's absolutely fine by me. And yeah, respect the decision they made.

But you're still happy having a senior role in the team, I guess?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've played 61 Tests now and I think my thing is guys coming in and guys who are experiencing places like Australia for the first time. I think my kind of senior spot in the team is kind of leaning on those guys and helping them out because I have experienced this and I know what Ash's tour can be like and I've got that in the bank. And I think there's a lot of us in the changing room that can sort of use those experiences. So I can kind of use it in a different way. I see.

Well, that was Ollie Pope talking to Adam Mountford. I think we can say with some confidence that was England's number three, Ollie Pope. I'm alongside Jonathan Agnew and Aggers. It is the Sunday before the first Ashes Test and I think if you'd said to me a month ago, maybe six months ago, maybe a year ago, the conversation we might have been having today would have been, who is going to bat at number three for England in the first Ashes Test? Is it Ollie Pope or Jacob Bethel? But there's no debate, is there? It's going to be Ollie Pope.

And I think most of that was settled after the Zimbabwe Test match in the summer. You know, that was Bethel's opportunity. He wasn't there for whatever reason. It still seems a bit muddy, all of that argument about it, but he wasn't there. He was sitting at the ipl. Ollie Pope said, thanks very much, got a big hundred and that's kind of job done. And I think, I know it's a bit more fickle these days maybe, but I think you, you should be rewarded for service given. And Pope's done everything. He's captained at the shortest of notice, short leg fields, when, yeah, in I go. Pope's been a brilliant vice captain, really, to Ben Stokes. I think he's a terrific player. I think he's a wonderful batsman. Actually. No surprise to me that he's the one who took the most out of the practice game. Just got his head down and played. That's really, you know, compare that to Brooks approach. I wasn't there, but it didn't sound special. You know, Pope's not like that. Pope's a, an old fashioned pro, really. Goes away, you heard there, worked at his game. He's not satisfied, you know. So, yeah, I Mean, I think that the whole Bethel thing has been a bit of a curious smokescreen, hasn't it?

If.

I mean, if they. If they're really serious about Bethel, he really needs to play some cricket and the fact that he didn't play any cricket last time was really odd. And then to suddenly announce that he's shown all these great leadership qualities and therefore he's going to be captain of the T20 team in Ireland. I mean, leadership qualities doing what? I mean, it just seemed. I felt sorry for him because every person I speak to who's had dealings with Jacob Bethel says, this man is a very talented young player. That's from his school coach and upwards. This guy from Mike Powell, who. I had a good chat with him. This fella is a good player. What they were doing to him, though, was almost making him like the school SWAT and that he was somehow being specially treated.

Well, he got sledged in the hundred for that.

Well, I'm not surprised.

I think it was. I can't remember who gave him a bit of a send off, but there's a lot of chat about, you know, let's get the golden boy out.

Absolutely. Who are you? Who do you think you are? Well, it's not his fault. I just don't think they've handled him very well. I don't think he's any better off. Okay, it's called 101 Days and he got some runs here. Is he. Is. Is he in better control of his own game now than he was against India in that last Test at the oval where he just looked so exposed. He played one lovely shot, bang through the backward point, and then after that was just horrible. It was someone who did not know his game. And he has to learn a game. Doesn't matter how promising you are or how talented you are. Some people obviously work it out quicker than others. Sachin Tendulkar at a very young age works it out very quickly. Others don't take quite as long as that. And you can still be very talented, but give the lad a chance. And I just. I'm really pleased that Pope's got to go now. Will he be at number three by the end of this series? Who knows? That's.

Well, it would have gone badly for England. Something would have had to have gone wrong because if Ollie Pope is the starting number three. Yeah, you would say that. The only reason then that Jacob Bethel would come in is that either someone has lost form, results haven't gone well, or someone's got injured.

Yeah, injured, yeah. I mean, that's true. I mean, I think you don't. You don't. You don't want to keep changing number three around either. Look at the Australian debate still about that. You know, what they're going to do. It's. It's a key position and I know that might. You know, people will say that Pope's a better number five. Well, he might be, the way he plays, because he is quite a free player. But actually, you know, he's. He's, he's knuckles and I'll do it. You know, Joe Root doesn't want to do it. Ollie Pope says, I'll do it. And I think. I think you do get some reward for that.

I think the Bethel situation is just a really curious mishmash of circumstances. So decisions made by England, and he had his IPL deal before he made his Test debut and England wanted him to honour that. Whether you think that's right or not, that's what happened. Decisions made by the player of whether or not, you know, where he should be playing and what else. Scheduling not ideal, because a lot of the time, the Red Bull cricket that is being played when. When Jacob Bethel could have maybe left the squad just wasn't there. There wasn't always the time for that to happen. So I think that's a little bit curious. I think what Ollie Pope alluded to then, about the pressure that he's been under basically for a year, he's always responded. So the hundred at Headingley, I think, was a really good example of that. That seemed like the debate was at its fiercest and he went and got 100 in the first innings against India. But also the point of selection is to leave someone out. There's got to be a really good reason that you're going to be absolutely certain that the person you're replacing is going to do a better job and inform.

Yeah, and. And, you know, we talk about, if number three changes, you're going to be replacing him with somebody who hasn't held a bat for a week. Possibly. You know, it's, that's, that's, that's, that's. That's the modern tour. But I. I just think that they handled the Bethel thing really badly last summer. I don't think he benefited at all. He carried drinks. It was as though he was there for a couple of days, then went off and played for Warwickshire while the test was continuing. Oh, no, they kept him there, didn't they? I just. I just don't think that was in his best interest.

I think also with Pope. There was never a stage where I thought, this guy's got to be left out of the team. He'd always done just about enough. Yes, he's got this habit of starting series well and then and tailing off. And that's what happened in the summer. He made 100 in the first innings. Then he didn't pass 50 in any of his next eight against India. But again, the debate reared its head when the Ashes squad was announced and we were told that Ollie Pope was no longer the vice captain. Yes, Harry Brooke had replaced him. Now Brooke is England's white ball captain. Rob Key explained that decision by saying, we think that Harry Brooke is a better leader and maybe there's some succession planning going on. But let's remember Ollie Pope was England's captain in the last Test match that they played. And it just reignited the debate, didn't it? It felt like Pope once again was vulnerable to being dropped for the start of this tour. And maybe he would be more vulnerable if Jacob Bethel had taken his chances in New Zealand. He didn't. Pope was endorsed at the start of this week by Truscotic, Marcus Truscotic, the England assistant coach, and Ben Stokes, he got 190 in the game. But it still felt pretty brutal for England to remove Ollie Pope of the vice captaincy in the way that they did.

Yeah. So the only surprise is they make Jacob better vice captain. No, I mean, silly, but I mean, is it to try and, you know, unify the white ball? I, I, and they do they see Harry Brook. I mean, I think Ben Stokes is a massive Brook.

Well, Brook's going to be the next Test. I think we can, I think, I.

Think, I think he probably will, but there's still some areas for me that need to be satisfied from that perspective. He needs to show a bit more nous. Frankly, he says some pretty stupid things at times. The way he got out at the oval against India was just actually quite shocking, you know, 70 to win, two two, one, hundreds. Dane after bat, seven wickets in hand, India broken. You have to nail those games down, you know, you have to win those games. And that's just. I don't know whether it's the case of just growing up a bit, but a maturity, you know, Perhaps another reason we didn't mention there, perhaps another reason for making vice captain is they actually do want him to take some more responsibility and do want to make him a bit of a mature character, give him that responsibility. I mean, that, that could be part of it, too. Maybe they sense Hang on a minute. You know, maybe it'll improve his White Boar captaincy by being vice captain and the status of that has, of the testing, who knows, frankly? But you're right, it did look as if it was therefore going to be easier to drop Pope. And that's all the first thing that was going through people's minds. I'm glad they haven't. It's down to him to perform. But he's a good player and I really enjoy watching him bat. I think he's a real team man and I think that counts for a.

Lot on Harry Brook. I do feel that, like when questions have been asked of him or he's been put in situations, situations, and he's been asked to improve in his career so far, he has often responded. There was a time when he was a really young man when he was asked to get fitter and he did, if you remember, when he missed the India series away from home last year, for personal reasons, I think he wanted to go away and really work on his fielding. And then he came back and I, I'd argue that he might be England's most complete fielder at the moment. He catches a lot, does, yeah, in the slips. So if there is a question about him, I don't know, showing a bit more maturity and stepping up and becoming a leader, then I think he's got that in him. I mean it was an interesting start to his life as Test vice captain this week in this three day game at Lilac Hill. Not just the way that he batted in that first innings, which was. It just showed that he, he had no sort of regard for the exercise or the warm up game. Whereas someone like poetry, Hope, you know, he said, I got something out of it. Harry Brook, I don't think he was taking anything out of it. He didn't really try and that's, it's not fine. But some players can thrive in those circumstances and other, other players can't. One thing I thought was really interesting, on the first day he was put up to speak to the media and I asked him, you've picked five seamers in the England team for this warm up game. Does that give an indication to your, your plans for the first Test? You're the vice captain, you're the leader, you must have some idea. And he said, well, I don't know, I've not. I just think that there are ways where maybe, you know, if they're asking Brooke to step up, those are the ways that you want to see a bit more responsibility, leadership, maturity.

I Take responsibility. It's interesting, there's an argument all through the 90s when England never really had a vice captain, because it always prompts this debate.

It's a modern thing, isn't it?

Yeah, it prompts this debate. Someone's not vice captain anymore. Who's vice captain? Well, we're not going to have one. So then there'd be an argument about, why haven't you got a vice captain? Who's going to take care. Oh, we'll see. So actually, it was on in a way, it was quite a good way of defeating these sorts of arguments and trying to work out any sort of pecking order. But these days, I guess, maybe because the captain is more prone to being injured if he's a bowler, they do tend to have us captain.

Certainly because Harry Brooke could be England captain at some point on this tour.

He could.

He could.

Let's hope not, frankly. Well, you're gonna need Stokes out there, so let's hope. Let's hope not.

And bringing it back to Ollie Pope, he's got a career batting average of 35. He averaged 34 against India in the summer. And like we said, he started off with 100 and tailed off a little bit. I think if Ollie Pope was to average 35 in this Ashes series, if the batters around him do what we think they could do, I think that's enough for England to win this series.

Yeah, I mean, you used to think that 40 was kind of the. The benchmark. You look at the, the really good batsman of the previous generation, they'd be around that 40, 41, 42 area. But, yeah, I mean, 35 is not bad, is it? I think just because of how we.

Maybe we might be expecting the series to go as well.

Yeah, yeah. And, and, and, and this is. They play more positively, more attacking shots these days. And Pope's got all the. All those pretty shots, hasn't he? As well as just playing properly. I, I just. Yeah, I mean, I think he's got a score run. I think route has to score runs, and then I think, you know, England can take it from there. And if those two get bat. Bat in their. Their own way, I think. I think root has settled down now. He had that sort of mad moment, didn't he, Trying to be a bass baller and. Yeah, he's better than that. And he's got his own target here anyway. You know, he's got. He'll just be so absolutely focused on shutting everybody up and scoring centuries here. You know, I really think he's Gonna have a good series if he. If he doesn't. Well, they've. They've bowled very well at him and he is a bit vulnerable here. That extra bounce, you know, a couple of gullies I think would be a good. A good place for. To perhaps get root out in on these bouncier pitches. It can be a bit fleeting. I mean, it's a great shot that he plays, but it can sometimes not quite get on top of it. But anyway, yeah, that's. That's. I'm sure it's an area they'll be. They'll be looking at with root, but I'm. I'm backing him to. Backing him to score hundreds this time.

So.

So we've inked in Ollie Pope at number three and you and I have just been promoted, actually to England's selectors. Congratulations. Some would say it's long overdue.

Yes.

Where are we, then?

Well, I quite like. If I was one of the team. I quite like the selectors who had a look at the pitch first. We haven't actually been down there to see this yet.

This is where our skill in selecting, we've been promoted because of our skill of being able to predict the conditions.

There's quite a lot, you know, what could happen at that down there. With the absence of Hazelwood and Cummins, are they getting more tempted to actually really make it something that's going to be as flat as a pancake?

Is it possible to change at this late stage for the dropping?

Yeah, probably, yeah. You could. You could just roll the living daylights out of it, not put too much water on it. They've got free play spinning. They're not going to be worried about that, are they? Oh, yeah. There's still time in which you could make things different. You could just shave that grass off. So, yeah, there's time. So that's why I've. I've actually got the name Jacks penciled in.

Okay.

Just as an option. I mean, I think, you know, all these days out, we haven't seen the pitch, but, you know, if we're talking about a possible team, I think he would probably be in my 12 or if they. Or 13, however many are going to pick, so. Because I just think that's. Yeah, you just wouldn't. I wouldn't you.

I've got 10 names that I think will play.

Do you want to give me 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. So have I. And I've got three. I've got three others.

So regular top seven of.

I've got Crawley, Duckett, Pope, Root, Brook, Stokes, Smith. I've got Cast, Atkinson, Archer.

Yep.

And I've got Wood, Jack's Tongue.

Now, if the Optus Stadium pitch is what we are being told it will be like, which is fast, bouncy, lively. I'm playing Mark Wood.

Yep. Well, I mean, that's totally possible. I mean, I put Tongue there, really. I mean, I would choose Wood ahead of Tongue if he's fit. So, I mean, I can still see the value in playing another scene bowler rather, because Ignominy got a spinner. I mean, Shabbashir, he's got a way to go yet, especially playing on a pitch that we think it's gonna be like that. I mean, bear in mind also that the Aussies, the Perth lot, are quite proud of the fact they got this pitch, so they actually don't want it to be a flat thing. But if they're without those two leading bowlers, you can imagine that there would be a discussion at least about taking a bit of spice out of it. I mean, last, the India game, both first innings were over by lunch on the second day. So, you know, that is not what they necessarily want to happen.

And I think this is something that we touched on on yesterday's podcast on the way that England might handle Mark Wood. And I think this is the thing that we're going to be really looking out for when England train again on Tuesday as to what Mark Wood can do if, if he, how severe that, that knock, that setback to, to his, his preparation when he had to go for that hamstring scan over the weekend has been. If it was literally, you are fine there is the all clear, get back out there bowling and keep your loads up. The reason I think he's got to play is like we said yesterday, it's just that protection in a five man attack. I think it'd be a greater risk for him to play with four seamers and a spinner that England aren't really sure about later in the series.

Yeah, but I don't see the value in playing a spinner if they're not really good enough. Jackson had got all those wickets in Pakistan that time, didn't he? And he could do a job. He could do a job, but he would principally be a batsman for me, batting either a head or just below Smith and sort of bolstering that. And bowling a few was a variety, but I think, I think you got to play to your strengths. And England's strengths are there are their quick bowlers. Carson Atkinson, that's the engine room. You do have a pace in Archer, obviously, but Tongue offer you something different. And, and he, he could get some nip on there. I mean, he's, he's no slouch, especially.

Against what could be a long Australian tail.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, and then Wood would just come charging in and you sort of cross your fingers. He's not, he's not going to blow up on the way in.

So, just as a final thought, on England's team, and, you know, you and I are agreed on 10 names, what would you be looking for when England training? England will train Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. The fast bowlers were playing. Probably only bowl on Tuesday and Wednesday. They often have the, the day before the game off.

Yeah.

What will you be looking for from Mark Wood to think, yeah, he's ready to go.

I want to see proper spells out of him. Yeah. And, and actually, I mean, Tuesday and Wednesday, they got to work in pretty hard.

He probably have two spells in training. Yeah.

I mean, there's any doubt. If there's any doubt, then you, you, you, you can't play him. I mean, the, the. It's not just a question of him getting unfit, but you're not supposed to have a substitute fielder. If you go with an injured player, he won't be able to bat if he's hobbling around up and down the wicket. There's more to just shoveling him off and someone on. You come into a game with a known condition. If you're playing at hard ball and it's an Ashes game, that's it. Well, you're down as 10 men, so, you know, you've got to take that into account as well.

Well, thanks to you, Agars, more from you shortly. And let's get an Australian perspective on fast bowling. The former Australia quick and Ashes veteran Jason Gillespie has been reacting to the Josh Hazelwood injury and explaining to Lee James how much he's been enjoying all the build up to this Ashes series.

There's been such a wonderful lead up, hasn't there, like, because there's been so many headlines leading into this series, you know, both from an England perspective and an Australian perspective. You know, who's going to play, you know, England. A lot of people talk about England's preparation with Australia. Who's going to open the batting? Where's Cameron Green going to play? There's a couple of injuries now with the Australians. There's a couple of injury scares with England. So it all makes for great discussions, lots of debate, little bit of the mickey being taken out of both sides. You know, I'm sure the English media's getting stuck into the Aussies as well. So look, I think it's all pretty good natured. I actually think there's a hell of a lot of respect between the two countries when it comes to cricket. I think everyone's just beyond excited about day one of the Ashes and we want to see some cricket get underway. I think all the talk will be the makeup of the both elevens and what that surface at Perth Stadium is going to be like. And you know, you expect it's probably going to favor fast bowling and there'll be a lot of bounce, there'll be a lot of carry, which will make for great viewing.

Let's look at the Australian team coming into this test match already missing one of the key bowlers, the captain as well, Pat Cummings. Uncertainty over the top order. And now another blow with Josh Hazelwood ruled out with a hamstring problem. It initially been cleared he played for New South Wales on Wednesday, but further scans have revealed a muscle strain that is seriously depleted, hasn't it? Australia's pace bowling to two of their.

Three best quicks are out. There's no doubt that that's, that's less than ideal for Australia obviously with Pat Cummins out initially last week it was confirmed everyone just assumed Scott Boland, a more than ready replacement, averages 12 with the ball, would you believe in test cricket in Australia? So look, he's a more than able replacement. The loss of Josh only we've only just found out in recently that that's a, that is a bit of a blow for Australia. I think everyone can understand that it's not easy to replace the near on 300 Test wickets, let alone replace two lots of 300 Test wickets in Cummins and Hazelwood. So look, it opens the door for, for Brendan Doggett to possibly make his test taboo. He's in the squad. Obviously with Sean Abbott out with the injury, Michael Neese has been added to the squad. He's got Test experience. Do they go with him? But I suspect Brendan Doggett is in line for a Test to boot, which will be quite a significant moment in Australian Test history. He will. If he does make his debut, he'll just be the third indigenous male Test cricketer to represent Australia. So it could be quite a significant moment in Australian Test cricket.

Yeah, really significant for Australian cricket. Significant for him. How do you think he'll be able to handle that occasion then to make his debut in an Ashes Test?

Yeah, I don't think it'd Be a problem. Many players have made their deboos in Ash's cricket and have done very well. So l. Brendan's been around the domestic scene for a decade now, has performed really strongly. He's got over 30 wickets in Shield cricket already this season for South Australia on the back of. He's been in, in and around the squads over the winter tours that Australia have had, as well as getting 11 wickets in the Sheffield Shield final in March earlier this year for South Australia in their victory. So look, he's, he's coming into this Test series in very good form. So I, I don't have a problem with that. If he does get that debut playing against England. Yes, it's, it's a, it's a fantastic series, a big series to be part of, but I think he can handle it.

That was Jason Gillespie with Lee James and Jason can't wait for Friday at Optus Stadium and I'm sure you'll feel the same way. Agars. It's not unusual for England to start an Ashes tour in Perth. It is unusual for the first test of an Ashes series to be in Perth.

They've.

It's never been in this city. The first Ashes test of a series. Of course, we're talking about the old Wacker Ground, which is no longer used for men's test cricket, but really normal actually for England to begin their Ashes tour here. I mean, I guess, really, because this is the first place that the boat.

Could land like it's nearest. Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, the reason that this place has got this is because they got a, an agreement with Cricket Australia for the next 10 years that this new ground will stage the first test matches. So hence India last year, us this year, and on they'll go for the next eight years. So that's why it's changed. But no, we always started here, I think a number of reasons. Weather always great. You know, it's. It's not too hot at the moment, but the sun shines. You can get out there and practice. The, the net facilities at the WACA were outstanding. And so, yes, we turn up, you'd have at least a week of nets. At least a week of nets. And then usually you'd potter off somewhere like Geraldton up the coast and go play against the country 11, which was great. I mean, just how far would you be going? Be two or three hours drive. I think up there it's a. It's a sort of seaside place. Well, no, it's a fishing place that's in great memories. Full of locusts, I seem to recall. And the. The first time I went up there and I'm pausing so I will get his name in a minute, but the. The local farmer whose fields are being ravaged by locusts took five wickets against England at the time. And he was actually preferably taking place wickets against England than trying to protect his crops. It's a ridiculous story one year where they were going to paint the wacker blue because the locusts were coming down from the north and therefore if they painted the wacker outfield blue, they wouldn't think it was grass and they would move on. I mean, it's bizarre stories, but yes, you play that, then you come, you play West Australia and that would be a tough game, really tough game on the wacker and they'd have some quick bowlers and I don't know, you'd have Langer and co playing, you know, it'd be in your face, you know, it was a tough, tough initiation, really. Then you go to South Australia and do the same thing. Potter off to Port Piri, something like that up in the north, go and play the farmers again. Another opportunity for people to get into practice, come back to Adelaide Oval, play against South Australia. Hard game again, good crowds, People really getting stuck into a bit hotter. Then off you go to Hobart, of course, a complete change in conditions. We always thought the Australians were trying to stitch us up there because Hobart's freezing.

They probably were.

I think they probably were. So you went down to Hobart, was about 12 often played Australia A and then of course up to Brisbane, where It was about 32, very humid, playing in the tropics for the first Test. So in fact, going back to 2010 again, when actually we beat Australia A and Hobart, the bowlers of course were sent on. So they didn't actually play in that game. They didn't. They kept the heat, if you like. They kept the. They kept acclimatized to hot weather and up they went to Brisbane. So, you know, it was. It's just different, isn't it? You know, it was. They didn't practice every day. I don't think they went off and golfed. I remember playing tennis with Graham Gooch up on the roof of the hotel down there when he was England captain and my first year coming on here. He's quite a good player actually. That was the year where he severely damaged his finger dropping a cort and bold, actually at a club ground up here. And they were actually playing against each other then, as it shows, isn't it? They were having A knockabout between themselves caught and bold. Chance banged down it when he badly cut his finger. And three or four days later, I played tennis with him up on the roof of the hotel down there. And he. We had rackets that had those sort of toweling handles. And his got. His finger got really badly infected off that. So off we go to Brisbane for the first Test. He can't play. Who's captain of England? Alan Lamb, his captain of England. And Gooch has a really bad operation on that finger. He had it in Adelaide, actually. So that was a pretty bad start to the tour, as starts the tour always were. But it's.

It's quite modern, actually, for Ashes tours to have been curtailed in the way that they are now. I've been, you know, interviewing people for the from the Ashes series, which you can find on BBC Sounds. But even as recently as 2002, 03, Michael Vaughan's tour, England were here from October until February. They paused midway through for one day when Shane Warne dislocated his shoulder. And going all the way back to 1962. 63, the last time there was a tour that had part of the trip on by a ship. England flew to Aden and then got the ship to Perth via a stop off in Colombo. Spoke to David Larter, the former Northamptonshire bowler, about that. England played nine games.

Yeah.

Before the incredible Test match. Gotta pull you up on something, though, because they did play golf on that tour. I found pictures, Ted Dexter striding off towards the golf course in full, full suits, clubs on his back.

Yeah, but he flew here. He flew here in a light airplane. I forget what I'm doing. Trundling around parts of Australia. He flew his family from England to Australia for the tour in a light airplane.

You talk about those times with such fondness of the different games and the different places that we'd go to, and playing tennis with the England captain and all those sorts of things. I guess the question is it's not whether it's better or worse. It's just different, isn't it? That's what it. That's what it is.

I think the main change is it's controlled now. The players are more controlled. There was no media manager. There was no Danny Rubin who's on the text to tell you what's going on. You as a journalist, you had to go and watch every ball of the nets because if anything happened, you had to be there. If you weren't there, no one would tell you about it because the competition within newspapers was way more intense. Than it is now. And my first tour here, I was amongst it. I was writing for Today newspaper, which was a tabloid. So that was my education, really. And I was very out of my depth. I mean, you're there with a male. The sun, the Star, the Sport Mirror, all that lot. You're down there, you're with them, fighting every day for a story. So there was nothing controlled. There was never one player put up like there is now. Ten past one, you'll be speaking to Gus Atkinson. No, you had to have your own contacts. And so you go around the team hotel at the end of practice and you'd hope you'd find someone hanging around or by the pool, Anna Lamb or David Gower or. We've got five minutes. Yeah? Yeah, okay. And that was how. And so in the evening, the evening would come when everyone filed their copy. We'd meet for dinner and there's always this sort of uncomfortable 15 minutes until somebody finally said, go on. Then Ian told of the Sun. What do you. What are you written about today? Oh, well, I had a bit of a cat chatted to so and so. Oh, right, okay. And then someone else said, yeah, didn't you see that thing in the net where that bloke got hit on the hand? It might be an injury done. No. Oh, crikey. Oh, blimey. But some of it was a wind up, some it wasn't. But if you weren't there watching every ball of the nets and you missed something, you were strung up. And that was the discipline, having to do the job. In those days, you had to rely on your contacts to get interviews. I'll tell you one little story here. When I started that for today as a tabloid writer, and a great feeling of resentment towards me from the writers because they could see what was happening. Retired cricketers coming in and taking their jobs. The big story here in West Australia was Terry Alderman, who of course had destroyed Graham Gooch repeatedly. Gooch, that captain, Terry Alderman here playing Western Australia. We got to get Terry Alderman is the word. So word goes around to Terry Alderman. Nah, not interested. Terry could be a bit feisty. Nah, shooed them off. Now, I've obviously played a lot against Terry. So quietly, I scuttled around and saw Terry, said, terry, I don't suppose you got. Yeah, mate, how are you? I said, yeah, give us, give us. Yeah, come on in. So he went all through the stuff, how he's going to get Graham Gooch out this time around. I mean, it was manna from heaven for a tabloid paper. So I Went back with it. I thought, what am I going to do with this? And I never did tell my boss at end the. Today, this. Do you have the exclusive, the first exclusive, and probably be even more unpopular from the people that you're trying to swim alongside here, or do you hand it round? So I handed it round and from that moment, I was. I was in. I was. I was in the. In the conference every morning and I was looked after by some very experienced tabloid writers who from that moment on. Respect.

Is this about you bowling in the nets?

Well, yeah. Well, that was you. I say respect to me. I bowled in the net here because actually, before it came out, Mickey Stewart said, will you bring your boots? I said, yeah, no problem. So in the nets at the whacker I was telling about, I bowled the nets. And Mike Selvi, also retired cricketer, said, he can't keep doing that. So I'm telling you it's going to go wrong. I said, come on, I'm only bowling in the nets. The moment will come. You can't have a foot in both camps. I'm just telling you. So I thought, okay. Then all that Graham Gooch hand thing happened. He's ruled out of Brisbane. We go to Brisbane and the preview of the Brisbane Test match, the first test of the Ashes. Peter Lush, the England manager, came out because Alan Amesbury, captain. So I'm very sorry, but you can't speak to the England captain today. Well, it all kicked off. This is the Ashes preview. Got to speak the England captain. I was there in my whites because Mickey had left a little message on my answer phone at the hotel. Please come and bring your boots and build the nets. So I was standing there in my whites alongside my new colleagues. I also need to speak to the England captain. And so I said, well, in that case, I'm very sorry, Peter, but I obviously can't come and bowl and help you out in the nets. So he said, oh, all right. So that was all fine. A bit of chantering going on. Next day in the Sun, Ian Todd Agnew tells England to get stuffed was the headline. Because they had nothing else. They had nothing else. That's what he wrote. But himself, he was right. You cannot have a foot in both camps.

What is it, though, about this city? I know we're going to a new Ashes venue this time because the Wacker is no longer hosting men's Test matches.

Which is a great shame, by the way. It's a lovely. It's a bit ramshackle, you know, but it's Got history and some of them the speed of that pitch and the cracks that ruined that pitch. Jeff Thompson smashing poor old David Lloyd's boxer part there. Colin Cowdery coming out the bat there, age 40, whatever, pulled out from England to go and face Jeff Thompson at his most vicious. Hello, my name's Colin. We haven't met. As you walk past him. Shook him by the hand. Tomo looking. Who the hell's that?

I don't think he said that either. He said something you can't.

I think he probably did. But there's so much. Roy Frederick's innings, 100 before lunch. I think he almost got anyway against Australia here, just flashing it. Every little left hander from the West Indies.

Curtly Ambrose.

Yeah, Curtly Ambrose running through him. I mean, all that and it just felt the Lily Marsh stand, you know, it kind of had a. I know you can get romantic about these things and then the difference would be that the Optus, very nice. Impressive big round bowl, but. It's a big round bowl, but the question.

So there's been 14 Ashes Tests in this city, right? England have only won once and not since 1978. I know we're going to a different ground, but what is it about this place that has been so. Yeah, hostile.

Length of length of bowling. England get it wrong. Funnily enough, the hotel opposite us here, right opposite the road. I remember going in there to interview Alex Tudor with his head kind of, you know, bound up and stitched together, hit by Brett Lee, a furious blood on the pitch. It was a horrible, horrible delivery. Alex was bad actually. It's just that extra pace and the bounce. And I remember we lost here in 2010. 11. We'd won at Adelaide. So it's 113 games gone. And I remember having quite a volleyball conversation with Alistair Cook at the end of that game in the bar and not this hotel just down the road. And I was really worried. I thought, that's it, we lost here again. They're going to come back and they'll win and they'll win the Ashes again. He was adamant, he said no, he said, that will not happen. He got that unplayable ball here from Ryan Harris. I mean, he was, you know, there was just that ability. And the Australians somehow managed to adjust much more quickly. Even though it's the east coast, let's face it, bowling in Melbourne or Sydney, it's like bowling at Grace Road or Edge Baston, you know, there's not a lot of difference. They were able to adjust more quickly to bowling because you have to bowl a full length. The temptation is that you run up and you bowl too short. Is the ball flying through. Well the good Australian batsman just sway out the way or they pull it. You've got to, you've got to bowl that fuller length and we've not done that well enough and Australia always managed to do it. And our bats are obviously a little bit windy as well about the bounce and the pace. I think our batsman aren't used to playing back foot dominated play. And we talked about this yesterday with the warm up game. You know the England bowlers fine but they bowled on a very slow pitch to batsman who are much more, more likely to get on the front foot than Australian bats and bats will be on the back foot cut his pullers. So yeah that, that's, that's one of the reasons I think why we've always struggled here.

I'm glad you mentioned the word windy albeit in a different context because when I landed here earlier in the week I messaged you to say I wouldn't want to be bowling into the wind and you said wait till about two. Wait till this. Yeah, wait till the sun afternoon. So the Fremantle doctor.

Yep.

Huge factor in cricket at the Wacker but it's a massive bowl of the.

Octav I suspect and again that's why it's rather sad that one of these great things you, you, you'd pick your team based around the Fremantle doctor.

Explain it. What, what was it?

Well it's was the. It's a strong sea wind that comes in in the afternoon and what difference.

Did that have to fast bowling?

Because well for the bowler bowling from the far end as we look at it, it's obviously dimash. It meant you had to run into it but actually did help your out swing or in the case of the off spinner it would help your arm ball. And so Terry Alderman's part of his success was building into the Fremantle doctor so the fast builder could come tearing, tearing down it. Yardley, that's the name I'm looking for. Bruce Yardley, another very successful off spinner here. West Australian again but just float the ball into that, into that breeze Jeff. But a bow well here actually but it only comes in round about two o' clock and you see the flags, you literally see the flags change up on the pavilion roof and ah, the doctors arrived and it's cool, it's coming off the sea so it's a, that's why it's called the Doctor. Now a huge relief off from Fremantle which is out on the coast. So, you know, fight after it's 35 degrees, it might go down to, you know, mid-20s and that, that strong wind. But I wouldn't like, I wouldn't like to bolt into it very much.

And the last thing, the other thing I sent to you earlier on this week was a picture of my. I'm amazed that it's there. There's a water slide at the WA. A 50 meter swimming pool.

Why that has been installed at.

Now there are grounds.

Not at the lily marsh, there are.

Grounds around the world that have got a swimming pool. I can't think of one that's got a water slide. I want to see you going down it.

50 meters.

No, not the slide, but the pool.

No, I'm not going. Where is it then? Because also one of the lovely things about the wacko, you walk through those beautiful gardens, the Queen Elizabeth Gardens, which I think you could, if you take a bit of a diversion, you can still go through it. So is it on that. Maybe it's on that side of it. This is where, by the way, the barmy army first appeared.

Yeah.

So whatever year that was, that was 1991, wasn't it? The first sort of outriders, if you like, of the barmy army came and they, there was a, there was a plane strike, refuelers strike, and a lot of concern about how we would actually get here for that test match. And therefore also the barmy army who found themselves because the Aussies in those days thought, oh, larrikins is rather good fun, these, these poms, you know, and they rather embraced them, which of course they don't anymore. They're trying to separate them up. But though they embraced them, they got, they got a sponsor, a well known Japanese car company. They got, they're on one of the little grassy banks there. They put a nice, nice sort of gazebo up. They probably only, I don't know, 50 of them, but they were the pioneers, they were pioneers of the barmy army. So maybe that's over on their side, is it? I'll go and have a look tomorrow.

What would I have to do to get you down the water slide?

Find a purse. Not ready for me and my Speedos yet.

Thank you very much. Agarz. Remember, we'll have a podcast every day of this Ashes tour and there's not long to go before the first test on Friday. Test match special on air from 1:30am in the early hours of Friday morning with play running towards about 10 o'. Clock. Plenty to enjoy during your morning routines. We'll have video clips and highlights during play on the BBC Sport website and app plus a highlight show later on the BBC iPlayer. That's it for now. We'll talk to you again next time. Time 5 live sports the rugby Union.

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