Pope seals Ashes place with century

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The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live. Hello, I'm Stefan Shemelt and welcome to the Test Match special podcast from Lila Kill in Perth. On the second day of England's only Ashes warm up match against the England Lions. There was a century for Ollie Pope and runs for Stokes, Crawley and Duckett, but Harry Brook and Joe Root both missed out to come. We'll hear from Zach Crawley on his 82. I'll be joined by cricket writer and journalist Simon Wilde. And we'll also hear from the England Lions wicketkeeping coach and Women's World cup and Ashes winner Sarah Taylor. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. While the shadows are just starting to creep across the outfield at Lilac Hill, there's a white sheet on that placid pitch where we've seen two days worth of action. The breeze is just blowing through the trees and everyone's cleared out at the end of this second day, a day when the England team batted through throughout. Yesterday England Lions made 375. We thought that was 382 but that was corrected by the scorers and corrections to the score were a theme of the day. England would respond with 426. The openers Ben Duckett and Zach Crawley, well they slipped straight back in to what we expect with them an opening stand of 182. Just like the first day, the intensity of the cricket was at the highest in the morning session, particularly when Matthew Potts, who is in England's Ash's squad but playing for the England Lions when he was Opening the bowling for the Lions today, bowling to Ducket in particular, he really discomforted the England opener and Duckett could have been caught at slip on only six. He was dropped by Ben McKinney. But Duckett and Crawley, that stand of 182 almost or more than a run of ball stretching through the morning session with. But when Ducket and Crawley were dismissed, England got themselves into a little bit of trouble. They lost four wickets for 16 runs, including Joe Root and Harry Brook. Root was out for only one. He hooked pots into the hands of the Lions captain, Tom Haynes at Shortman Wicket. And Harry Brook played a very skittish innings over 16 balls. He was running down the pitch, he was trying to scoop the seamers. He was eventually bowled running down the pitch to Nathan Gilchrist and that left England 198 for 4. But then came another big stand between Ollie Pope and the captain, Ben Stokes. Pope was really measured for his. His 100 exactly. Made off 113 deliveries. And Stokes playing his first meaningful cricket since July. Remember, he had that shoulder injury, followed the six wickets he took yesterday by making 84. Really patient first 50 runs he opened his shoulders. After that, after Stokes was out, the cricket meandered a little bit, particularly towards the end of the day. Brydon Car returned for England. He was ill yesterday, but batted today in place of Mark Wood, who is going to have a scan on that hamstring injury. So eventually England 426 all out. And at the end of the day, I spoke to the opener, Zack Crawley, who made 82.

Yeah, nice to spend time in the middle. Obviously, quite a few of the boys got some runs there, so, yeah, pleased with the day.

First time you batted in a while. How was it?

Yeah, I enjoyed it. It was good wicket to batten. It's quite flat, but, yeah, it was nice to spend time in the middle and get some rhythm and. Yeah, pleased with the day.

Nice for you and Ben Duckett just to slip back into the groove as an opening partnership.

Yeah, always enjoyed batting with Ducky and he looked in great touch there. So always, always enjoyed batting with him. Hopefully do it a bit over the next couple of months.

What are the conditions like out there?

It's a good wicket to bat on, but we're not too focused on that. We're just trying to, like you say, get some rhythm and spend some time in the middle. So, yeah, it's a flat wicket for sure.

How do you see it as preparation for playing a test match at the Optus?

You know, cricket's Cricket, like I said, just time in the middle and we're doing everything we can with what we got. And, yeah, I feel like we're going to be ready next week.

You'll know about all the discussion that's gone around about the preparation. How difficult is it to find something that suits all players? There were some players there who took it in a certain way, others who maybe try to play a few shots. How difficult is it to find a sort of one size fits all when it comes to preparation?

Yeah, luckily I don't have to worry about those sorts of things. I just try and turn up and play my role in the team. But as far as I'm concerned, I think it's good prep. We're getting used to the weather, getting used to the flies and. Yeah, so it's good prep, I think. And like I said, I feel like we'll be ready next week.

A couple of years ago, you faced the first ball of an Ashes series and did something quite memorable. Thought about the prospect of facing the.

First ball again, I'm always, yeah, I think that 50, 50 chance of facing it. So, yeah, I'm looking forward to it. Hopefully I'll just watch the ball and play on its merits.

Do something like. Do something similar as you did at Edgbaston.

Oh, we'll see. If it's a good ball, I'll block it and if it's a half volley, I'll try and drive it. And that's just trying how I play. Just see the ball and hit the ball.

You've got history in this city. What's it like to be back?

I love this town. Yeah, it's one of my favourite places in the world, so I love being back. I've got a lot of friends here, my old batting coaches from here and, yeah, I feel like I've got a connection with the place. So. I love Perth.

Have you managed to catch up with anyone? Been to your old club at Wembley?

I haven't yet. I'm going to try and catch up with them over the next week or so. But, yeah, I've got a lot of fond memories and a lot of good friends out here.

And how special would it be for you because of that, to play an Ashes Test in Perth?

Yeah, obviously we didn't get to last time with COVID so very special. And I played for the Scorches here in that Optus Stadium. I think it's an unbelievable ground. A lot of English people there, hopefully. And it's going to be, yeah, one of the most special Moments of my career for sure.

Well, that was the England opener, Zach Crawley. I'm alongside Simon Wilde of the time. Simon, what do you make of what you've seen today?

Well, I mean, I suppose it's a good workout for England. I'm not. I can't believe it's going to have much bearing on what happens at the Optus next weekend. Pitch is going to be different. It's a pretty good picture. I think he's going to have more pace and bounce than it at the Optus. I mean, you wouldn't really choose this ground as your preparation, would you? You'd rather be at the Wacker if you can't be at the Optus. But England have got to make do with what, what they've been given, really, and it's not much.

And the majority of the top order took the opportunity to spend time in the middle. And like you say, whether or not or how valuable that is come the Optus and the difference in the conditions, we'll find out. But I suppose for the likes of Crawley and Duckett and Pope and Stokes, time in the middle is better than none.

Yeah. And those on the outside looking at have been saying that match practice is what these guys need. It may not be the same as a test match, but this is what we say they should be doing and they've been doing it and most of them took their opportunity. The Aussies are playing shield cricket. I don't know how good the bowling is that they're facing in some of those games, but they, you know, some of those guys have got run, some of them haven't. This is, this is how you prepare for test matches these days, isn't it? It's not ideal really, but yeah, the top three will be very happy with the runs they made today and we'll see how they go.

I thought it was quite similar to the first day in that the intensity was there or certainly higher in the morning session and then tailed off as the, as the day went on. It got a little bit farcical actually towards the end of the day today with problems with the, with the scoreboard and England using 12 batters and Jacob Bethel coming on and rolling through the tail with his left arm spin. But this morning it felt like a much higher level of intensity. And actually Matthew Potts, I don't think he did himself any harm at all. I thought he looked good with the new ball. I thought he was comfortably the best seamer on show and him bowling to Duckett and Zach Crawley was good hard cricket. And Potts really examined Duckett in particular. A few edges through the slips. Duckett was dropped. But then after that, Duckett and Crawley came through that and it was what we've come to know to be used to from that opening pair.

Yeah, yeah. No, that was good, hard cricket. And the openers will be very happy with how it went, really. They got a good workout. And as you say, Potts is in the Ashes squad, he's a contender to play at some point and he justified his sort of position in the main squad, really, so he'll be happy too.

I'm going to stick with the positives for now because there was a question about Ollie Pope coming into this tour and maybe, you know, that question already been answered by Jacob Bethel not taking his opportunity in New Zealand. When we spoke to Marcus Trascothic and Ben Stokes before this game started, Pope was given, you know, big endorsement and said he's the man in possession of the number three shirt. Jacob Bethel only made two yesterday, so Pope knew that, really, it was a little bit of a free hit today, but I thought he looked calm and actually quite determined to take the opportunity to spend some time in the middle. Sometimes that Ollie Pope is accused of. Of not being calm enough as England's number three. And, yes, the surroundings are very gentle, but that's just what England want from him, isn't it, in the Test arena?

Yeah. And. And we. You can say it's sort of. You can. You can dismiss these games as. As not important and it doesn't really matter, but it is important to grind out 100 sometimes. And that's what he did and that's what he's often criticised as not doing enough of in Test cricket. He scored the runs, you know, and this is what the sort of thing that Joe Root often does. He will make 100 and you come away and you think, well, why did he get 100 and the others didn't? Well, it's because they're quality players and Ollie Pope's shown that. And really, for the last few weeks, the traffic's been all one way about the number three spot, hasn't it, really? Bethel hasn't made the runs in New Zealand. Pope has not been. Not had a chance. But he's got it here and he's made runs and he's sort of. He's put the whole thing to bed, really. You know, he's going to start the series and Bethel's going to have to wait for someone to slip up or to get in the team at the moment.

And Actually now it's almost my feeling that if we see Jacob Bethel in the Ashes that something's gone wrong for England. Either they've had an injury or result and form of taken such a dive that they've had to make a change. He's just made no case, has he, to be included in the top six.

I'm not unhappy about this development really in the last few weeks I think, you know, Bethel's never made a test hundred. Obviously he's, you know, he's made one professional 100, hasn't it? Which has been talked about. Ollie Pope has been sort of famed for being a heavy scorer throughout his, you know, throughout his early years and at Surrey it sort of makes sense that he should be the number three rather than Bethel. And you know, Bethel's. The argument for Bethel is purely on potential rather than on reality of heavy run scoring. And I think this is actually the right way round, this is how it should be. And if he's going to get in, he'll do it by weight of runs eventually or other people falling by the wayside. But he hasn't really got the body of work to justify the hype that has gone with his, you know, his elevation really people got very excited on not a lot really in substance to be honest.

Ben Stokes, he doesn't normally play warm up matches and the day before this game started he told us it was going to be balls to the wall from England. And he's done his bit, hasn't he? Yeah, he took his six wickets yesterday, 84 today. And I thought, you know, again from Ben Stokes, his point of view, he's not played cricket for so long, not since July and he's such a rhythmical batter that he, he always takes his time actually in the better knocks that we've seen Ben Stokes play. He often spends a lot of time in the early part of his innings before opening his shoulders and that's what he did today. I think he spent 92 deliveries over his first 50 then, then pushed on after he passed 50 and again that's just what England need, isn't it?

Yeah, I mean this is great. He looks completely focused and you know, on the case and he will, you know, he's England's leader and he's. And he knows he needs to lead with batan ball really. And the fact he bowled as many overs as he did yesterday was a very encouraging sign because there's been a lot of concern about whether he's actually going to be fit to play his part as an all Rounder and on this evidence he looks like he can and that's, that's great really. England need him to have a big series, really. He's got a, he's got to turn, you know, score the runs, take the wickets if England are going to have any chance, really.

So let's think about the negatives from that batting performance. And firstly, there's so much attention, isn't there, on Joe Root. The Australian media have certainly latched onto that. You know, his record here having never scored a century and his record in Australia is far from poor. It's just not as good as what we'd expect from Joe Root. A batter of his quality. And you know, there was some cruel lines yesterday that he did make a century. He's just the runs that he conceded with the ball and then today he was out for one quite uncharacteristically. He was fetching a, a pull or a hook from outside of his eye line, outside of the off stump into the hands of the mid wicket fielder. I thought he might have been slightly undone by the, the slow pace of the pitch, but he also, I think his high score in three knocks in New Zealand was, was 25. He'd like some more time in the middle and he might not get another knock.

Yeah, I can't be too worried about him though because he's such a quality performer and he's done it so, you know, for so long and the, the Aussie media and, and the rest of it latching onto him. We've, we've seen this before. They, they like to pick on a sort of a big name player. Stokes has had a bit of flack already in the last week. I remember a couple of tours ago when Kevin Peterson was, I think he was batting at 5 and they, they were saying, well, if you, if you're really in the best place, you bet four. And I think it was the 067 series that went badly wrong for England and he did move up the order in the end. He sort of, England sort of almost relented and said, you know, he should be going up the order. They'll find something to latch onto with one of our star players. They like to sort of niggle and I hope he and trustee will ignore all that stuff and you know, it won't affect him.

In your experience, having covered as many Ashes tours as you have, how difficult is it for players to ignore that scrutiny? Because I think Alistair Cook had it. In 1314 when England lost 5 nil, Michael Clark was pretty open about targeting the England captain. We've heard it other times, Glenn McGrath and Mike Atherton. How have you seen some players cope well with it and other players crumble?

Yeah, I've seen it often and I do remember with the 201011 tour that England won, that one of the things that they worked on in the months leading up to the tour was to educate the players about the flak that was coming and the sort of off the field distractions there would be. This was very much like this is going to happen to you. You've got to understand it's going to happen. There's nothing you do about it, don't get annoyed about it, try and embrace it. And they told them to respond by saying it's a lovely country, we love coming here, it's a great place to play cricket, Australia, you know, great cricketers and just meet the hostility with sort of a welcome answer. Don't engage in the nonsense really because you'll never win. And I think that was good advice and it worked in 1011, I mean the Aussies put the cricket Australia digital team got a, put something on Big Ben, didn't they in London of a picture of Michael Clark and Ricky Ponting saying, you know, remember to pack the urn because we're going to, you know, you're going to be giving it back to us. Well, of course that didn't happen but you've just got to ignore that stuff. And England did it then and I think the way. So when Joe Root in the summer was being criticized about, you know, he's got a surfboard on his front leg, all this sort of stuff, he, he just came back and said, you know, I love playing cricket in Australia, it's a great tour and I think that's what this, these, this group will do this time I hope is just keep meeting it in a friendly manner and just don't get, don't engage. It's, it won't pay.

So Harry Brooks innings then. And we know that there are players who can see the value in this sort of cricket, that it serves a purpose for them, that they get benefit out of it. And others who just can't get themselves up for warm up matches, they save themselves for the big occasion. And we mentioned that Stokes doesn't normally play in these games because you know, he wants to save himself for, for those, for those other more important contests. And there's been such a debate around the value of, of this game and the merits of the way that England are preparing Brook today. In his first 15 deliveries he danced down the pitch to the seamers twice and also tried to play, you know, his trademark scoop shot off Matt Fischer and missed it. And then from his 16th ball, bowled by Nathan Gilchrist, Brook danced down the pitch and ended up outside leg stump. When he was bowled off stump and it looked to me like Harry Brook was almost. That was his way of telling us what he thought about this warm up game.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, there's a. It reminded me of the way David Gow used to infuriate critics with his approach in these sort of games. You know, if he wasn't stimulated by the occasion, then he couldn't do it. He just could not engage and grind out a score. It wasn't his way of doing things. And I think Brook is in that category as well. And maybe KP to an extent. He used to get out in silly ways and say, well, that's the way I play. And I think Brook would say the same thing. It's quite annoying for us on the outside when they do that, you see. Well, you're good enough to. You could easily got 100 today if you put your mind to it. But he couldn't, he couldn't do it. What do you do about it? I don't know, really. I mean, he's a phenomenal player and it'll only matter if he fails in the test match next week, really. And you think, well, why didn't you get your head down here and get ready? But I trust he'll be right.

He's vice captain now, though. He's been given responsibility.

It's not a great look really, is it, to the others. Fortunately, Stokes did show the way. Yeah, no, that's true. As a vice captain, it's not ideal, is it?

I think what's interesting as well is how teams become an image of their leaders, don't they? And we know there are reasons why England are preparing in this way and why they've chosen to use this method for some of their previous overseas tours. But they are also led by Ben Stokes and Brendan McCollum, two big game players, two Mavericks almost. Who you can imagine, of course, what we've seen from Stokes the past two days, he's taken this game seriously, mainly because of his. Of his injury comeback, but usually he wouldn't have had much truck with it. I can't imagine that Brendan McCollum could have got up for playing in this game. And, you know, if you think someone like Andrew Strauss, who was, you know, to the nth degree of his detail in England, had their warm up plans and everything was done. Seriously. Completely different kind of leader. And it's so hard, isn't it, to find a one size fits all preparation. Some players might want to play warm up games till the cows come home. Others want to play none. And that is the difficulty, isn't it?

It is. And the modern schedule doesn't allow for the kind of practice we used to have on tours. Pass. You have to just do it in the nets almost. And then with perhaps one game like this, it's, it's not ideal at all. But I don't know what can be done about it. It's, it's just not, it's, it's, it's not good. I don't know what to say really. It's sort of like, I mean, you know, Zach Crawley hasn't played since. What is it? That was it?

Beginning of September. Yeah, the, the T20 Blast quarterfinals.

The Blast quarterfinals, correct. Yeah. And you know Bashir, he was injured. He's not played since, I think the Lord's test. Is that right? Stokes injured? Not since late July. You know, the list goes on. It's incredible to think that these guys are about to play a test match next week, having done so little for so long. It's amazing. And good on them if they can get themselves up and put in a really big performance. Because that takes some doing on the back of the old, you know, old time players got reassurance from grinding out runs in county cricket. Well, not grinding out scoring very fast maybe, but you know, they'd get ready and feel good about themselves because they'd got runs for their counters. How do these guys feel good just from hitting a few balls in the net and feeling like it's coming out of the middle? I mean, that's a hard thing to do.

I want to touch on showed Bashir in a minute, but we saw Mark Wood walking laps today that left Hamstring heavily strapped. Now, if you believe the scorecard, he had a bat at one point. He made 31. But there was a bit of a, was a bit of a malfunction in the scoring system. And actually, I think while Wood was piling up the runs on the scorecard, he was having his scan to determine the severity of that hamstring tightness that he felt yesterday. If it is bad news for Wood on that injury, we might not know until tomorrow. It's a blow for England and really cruel on him, isn't it?

Yeah, I mean, I'm hoping just looking at his body language today, he didn't look as crestfallen as he back in February when he got injured at the Champions Trophy and he knew he was on for a long haul before he'd be playing again. I think realistically this means he won't play the first Test because it's a gamble. And why would England take that gamble when the whole point of having a battery of fast bowlers is to sort of shuffle them through a series, rotate them. So why would you take a punt on him if you're not quite sure that he's okay? So I think hopefully all this means is that he won't play the first and that maybe he can come back later in the series, in which case that's fine because he was never going to be playing five. You know, England, I guess, wanted to have Wood and Archer playing at the Optus because we think it'll be a fast pitch and would suit him, but all the pitches here will help him. He showed on the last tour that he was effective throughout. He played four, I think didn't out of the five last time and he was effective in all of them. So let's just hope that's does. It doesn't feel like a tour ending injury, just the, the vibes out of the camp at the moment, but we'll see.

And I wonder if maybe he'll even, he'll even go and get some overs in that game that the England Lions are playing against The Prime Minister's 11 in Canberra. We're told that the England squad just won't go to that game. But, but he could.

He.

He could. He. It looks valuable to him. Now. The reason I ask about Wood before I come to. To Bashir and even Will Jacks is because it looked like, and I think it probably still will be that England want to play five seamers at the Optus and probably Josh Tong is the man who will benefit from Mark Wood's injury and he would just slide into that fifth seam bowler's position. But the reason I think that Wood's absence is interesting is because England would probably have expected him to bowl the fewest overs out of those five seamers, that they probably wanted the four others around him to cover for him. And now that might open an opportunity for either Bashir and England just go with their normal formation of three specialists, Seamer Stokes and Bashir as a spinner, or even Will Jacks who made runs yesterday. Because if England think, you know what this is going to be a short test match, the seamers will do the bulk of the bowling. Ben Stokes is Fully fit. Why don't we lengthen our batting with Jax at 7 or 8 and he can bowl a few off breaks if we need him to. But neither Jax or Bashir, who are both recovering from injuries, Bashir from a longer term one and Jax from that broken finger that kept him out of the New Zealand white ball series, neither of them looked at the races with the ball today.

No, they didn't. I mean, my feeling before the tour was that Jax might well play at Perth if, if at all, he, he would be ahead of Bashir as a choice for, for Perth. And then obviously the second test at Brisbane is a pink ball test, isn't it? So I don't think Bashir is going to play there. So I don't think we'll see him till the third test. Yeah, I, I think Jax is, is, is a, has a chance of playing next week and I think that would, that sort of makes sense in a way and it gives them batting depth as well, which they'll like. And also just looking at how Nathan Lyon's gone in Australia, tested in Australia in recent years, his workload has declined. He doesn't bowl as many overs as he used to. So any spinner who does play here on this ground at the Optus, I would suspect he's not going to be bowling 50 overs in the game. He might bowl 25 or something. So therefore maybe chance tracks can do the job. So yeah, I think that's, that is a genuine possibility. And as you say, if Wood's not around, then maybe that's what they pivot to.

So we've had two days. We've got Saturday's third and final day coming up. What could England get out of that tomorrow? I think what one thing they, they probably will want is bride and cast to have a bowl because he missed the first day through illness. He emerged today as the 12th batter. He was the one we weren't expecting to see. Yeah. So that's one thing. Bride and cast to get through a spell tomorrow is one thing that they're going to be looking out for.

Yeah, I think they did like cast a bowl tomorrow in the game. Ideally they like Wood to bowl in the game as well. If he gets the all clear with his scan, they'd like him to bowl as well. What else do they need? Don't know really. Joe Root has another innings and get some runs. Yeah, Cast and Wood are the main things I would say. Yeah.

You never know, we might not even be here for the whole day. You wouldn't put it past England to pull the sumps out, would you and.

Go to the golf course?

Well, I'm just saying that they've had enough, but we'll see. And actually now, you know, we're a week away from the first test and I think, I don't know from watching the cricket for the past two days and you know, like we said, it started out with a certain intensity, but on both days it's just tailed off. We just want that first day if the first tester come around, don't we?

If England feel like they've got what they want out of the game, then in a way what's the point? So they might cut off early, but they would want to cast a ball and if wood's an option to bowl, then they'd want him to bowl. But after that they might say, well, what are we doing now? I guess moreovers for Bashir or Jacks wouldn't be a bad thing, but yeah, that's possible. They might, they might say we've got what we wanted out of this game.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live. Well, the England Lions team that England are playing against is coached by Andrew Flintoff, but he's not the only well known figure in the backroom staff. The former England women's wicketkeeper Sarah Taylor is also part of the setup. She was part of the England side that won the Ashes in Australia in, in 2008 and 10 years ago made history as the first woman to play men's first grade cricket in this country. I sat down with her on the boundary edge here at Lilac Hill. How is this for you? Because I think your last experience of Ashes cricket might have been playing in it. And now here you are in this environment with the England Lions, also part of the England Men's Senior Ashes Ashes tour. How's it been?

It's been great. I mean there's such a great bunch to be around, staff included. And we just all, we're all just enjoying almost the build up really. We appreciate that we're the Lions, but there's still a build up for us as well. And it's just been, I mean, weather's lovely, can't complain. Families and stuff. Moaning that it's a bit miserable back home also makes it slightly better. But yeah, this is where we want to be and we're working really hard.

When you finished playing, did you know that you wanted to be a coach or were you sort of? I'm not sure if that's what I want to Do?

No, I wanted to be the furthest thing from a coach. Wasn't actually sure why, because I'd done that career. I thought. I thought, well, cricket was one career and then I wanted to see what other careers were out there and I ended up. I fell into just. It was a very, very quick decision to actually go from coaching from playing to into a school and just see what it was like working in a school. And there was obviously some cricket coaching in there, but obviously not the level like it is here. But I ended up falling back into coaching because some of the players that we were working with at the school were Sussex Academy players. There was a couple of keepers in there as well, which I ended up working with that were on the academy and then it all of a sudden just went from there and then I ended up at Sussex full time and it happened really organically and then it was okay. This is when I was at Sussex, I was thinking this actually. I actually really enjoy this and I love working with the players and then all of a sudden seeing what they do out here and what they've produced, like knowing all the hard work that they've put in and I was like, okay, now that's my enjoyment rather than the playing side now. But yeah, I wanted to be an archaeologist at one point and then couldn't be further.

When did you knock that on the head?

Probably whilst I was playing it, to be honest with you. But it was something that I just wanted to try out and I was like, oh, during the summer, I'll give this a go during that first year. But by that point I was in the coaching in the thick of it and it took off so quickly I didn't really have time to stop and think.

So fill in the gaps for me. So what does life look like now? How many different coaching gigs are you in and what's the day job?

I actually work at? I still work at school. I work at a different school now, so I'm in London. I work at Dalewich College which is a phenomenal school in itself, the history there. But they allow me to come and do the Lions staff whenever they're really happy with me to do that and very supportive and obviously got the hundreds in the summer. There could be some potential franchise stuff which I won't mention throughout the winter, this winter along with the lion stuff. But it's four full time job obviously it's six days a week at Dulwich College and then we have line stuff in the summer plus plus like I said, the hundreds. So there's no real rest time for me. It's pretty much a 12 month of the year gig really. And including all the school stuff.

When you got into coaching and, you know, it sounds like something you sort of fell into, was there any ambition to be coaching in the men's world? Or again, was that just a happy accident?

Just because of the boys I was coaching that were in the Sussex Academy, which was then Richard Housel that asked if I'd come across and work with them at Sussex and then like I say, ended up in keeping, kind of lending itself or keeping coaching, lended itself into the men's game a little bit and absolutely organically. But now I'm in the men's game. You obviously want to see how far you can go and just enjoy it for what it. And yeah, I'm still doing women's stuff, which is absolutely the right thing to do, but obviously this is a little bit of a luxury for me at the minute.

How different is the two? Coaching men and coaching women? And you can be as brutal as.

You like here because skills wise it's the same. Obviously if I'm slinging in the nets, I'll sling slightly quicker to the guys as I do to the girls. Girls will naturally slightly more emotional. But I don't mean that in a negative way. I mean as in they want to understand a little bit more earlier.

Does that mean you have to coach in a different way?

Absolutely. But again, different players are totally different as well. So you've got to learn to coach in different ways. But absolutely. You'll probably explain it more as to why you're doing something in the women's game. Whereas guys will probably trust you and then ask questions. But it's probably slightly different. But that's the beauty of coaching, right? You've got to. Got to learn different ways and different teams and different setups. The two Rue brothers are obviously extremely different. So you've got to learn that. So that's. Yeah, that's what I enjoy about the.

Coaching side in terms of the skills that make up the game of cricket, is keeping the one that most lends itself to crossing the gender divide. Because I guess power is the thing that's least. I guess down the list of attributes for keepers compared to all the other different things you could do in the game.

Yeah, I mean, I guess so that's probably me being a little bit biased towards keeping. But I definitely think the skills and what I deliver is exactly the same across both. I don't see why there would need to be any change. It's honestly, literally speed. I still think there's female coaches that can help out with, you know, seam bowling, spin bowling and batting.

It's more of a skill, though, I guess, rather than the teaching of the skill.

I think keeping lends itself. It's a lot. I think it's a lot easier, I think, to deliver those skills for keepers than it might be in other facets of the game. But again, might be being biased towards keeping.

And if you had to do anything differently, I don't know, sort of physically to make sure that you can give the guys the things that they need. I'm hitting the ball a bit harder, having that bit more power when you're, I don't know, hitting catches or whatever.

Yeah, I've had to. I can use. I've got different types of bats, so if I know I'm in the men's game and they obviously need balls that are slightly higher, then I've got a bat for that. But I had to learn that. I had to learn that the hard way, where you're hitting balls and you're thinking, God, that's just not high enough and you're feeling a little bit insecure or kind of not good enough. And then someone just kind of goes, try this. And then all of a sudden it's going absolutely where you need it to go, and you go, oh, it's fine. Like, I'm absolutely fine. But some days you need to know your limits, and that's what's the beauty as a coach. So I know there's certain things that actually I might not be good at, so I ask for help and then I facilitate that, because ultimately, it's about the players. At the end of the day, it's not about me. So, yeah, it's been a learning curve.

How are you finding this environment? Because sometimes I look out, you know, sitting here, looking out on the field, and there are, you know, a lot of people here, and some of, I don't know, the biggest alphas I could have ever thought of in men's cricket. Andrew Flintoff, Ben Stokes, Brendan McCollum, and there's one woman who's part of the coaching team. How are you finding that?

Completely normal? Is that a weird thing to say?

No, not at all.

But they're just. I appreciate they are humongous names, but they are also extremely lovely people. And we're all singing the same hymn. Sheet of, you know, we want to win the Ashes. That's why we're here. That's what we're doing. And ultimately you're just trying to prepare these boys to do the best that they can do. And I will learn as much as I can from pretty much every single word that they say. But I couldn't be more comfortable here. I feel at home with these guys. I will follow Fred to the ends of the earth. So, yeah, it's been a wonderful experience so far.

Why, why would you follow Freddie to the end of the year? I mean, he's effectively your boss, isn't he? How have you found working for him?

You just, you don't follow him after he's spoken because he's so good. Like just the, the words that he says. He's just so inspirational that you. There's no point in anyone else talking. Be how he speaks and the passion that he shows. You just want to follow him. You just want to go with him. Where are you going, Fred? We're coming with you. Like that's. And that is how all the boys are as well. And that's how he gets the best out of us. And yeah, we genuinely mean it. Like I would follow him to the ends of the earth.

I think having this conversation with you in Australia is interesting because Australia was a country where you blaze another trail playing in first grade cricket. And when we've spoken in the past, you told me that sometimes you find that difficult, that you want to push the boundaries but you're not, not always happy with the attention that that brings.

Yeah.

How are you balancing better?

I'm better now. I still am not somebody that's wanting the. The limelight. I just want to do. Be good at my job, do my job and kind of get out sort of thing. But you totally forgot I did that, by the way. But yeah, and that is, that's how I kind of want to go about my coaching, really. I want to enjoy this. I'm still 36. I need to remember that I'm still pretty young when it comes to coaching. Who knows where I'll be in 10 years time, but I'll still be relatively young in coaching years at 46. So I am just taking this experience for what it is, just learning as much as I can, watching drills, watching how people operate a lot of the time at this level, it's getting to know players and trying to get the best out of them. And I'm watching how the coaches around here, who are some of the best in the world, just how they talk to players and how they get the best out of them. So that's essentially what I'm Trying to do.

You say you're so young in terms of your coaching career, where would you like it to go?

I've been asked this question a lot. I don't know. I love being a trailblazer, like you say, without the intention, which is wrong. But I don't know. I genuinely don't. I want to see as far as I'll go with this, see how far I can go, work with some of the best players. I can see how far I can go in the men's game, potentially. But I think in an ideal world, traveling around the world, being one of the best keeping coaches in the world, that would be my dream.

But you never know because you are a keeping geek. I am a most. Before we turn the recorder on here, Tom Ruder staved down the leg side and he was saying, great take, you know, very. I don't know. I doubt many people notice that sometimes in the game when they're watching just a game of cricket and they pick out what keeper has done well. So what can you tell us about working with Tom Rue and with James Rue and other keepers that you've worked with?

Yeah, I mean, obviously we've worked really hard and they train so hard, so that is a blessing as well. But we just worked on a couple of technical things with both of them. James was a little bit more last year, so Tom is obviously slightly newer into the squad, so there's a bit more technical stuff going on. And quite annoyingly, when you fix one thing, something else kind of creeps a little bit, creeps up a little bit. So it's an ongoing process, but it's just nice to see. I don't think he's quite realized, but hopefully at some point he'll pinch himself and be like, I'm 17 and I'm keeping to these players here and playing against these. But it's just nice to see what we've done in training. He's now putting into the game, which is what I enjoy the most.

And more broadly, I know you don't work with necessarily with Jamie Smith, but he's going to be keeping in Australia for the first time in the Ashes series. So what is the difference keeping in this country to keeping in England in particular?

I think naturally, as a whole, it obviously bounces more over here. Obviously, we have no idea what pitches they'll prepare, but the way he keeps in his technique, I think is absolutely perfect for out here. He's very simple in his technique and he's quite a tall guy, which is perfect. But I honestly think that he'll succeed out here. I think he'll be absolutely brilliant.

Thank you very much. Thank you for talking to us. You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live. Well, that was England Lions assistant coach Sarah Taylor. We'll be back with news of the final day of England's Ashes warm up game in our next podcast. Remember, we'll have episodes every day during this Ashes tour and next Friday the series gets underway with full commentary on test match, special in play, highlights and clips to watch during play on the BBC Sport website and app and a highlight show on BBC iPlayer. That's it for now. We'll speak to you next time.

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