Robinson returns & Gay gets the nod

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So England's men have named their test squad for the upcoming series, uh, which gets underway later on, uh, in the summer with, uh, some— well, I think it's fair to say exciting names in it. And, uh, by exciting, I would say familiar on one hand and, uh, new on the other. But, uh, no question about it, this is a, uh, a team that has marked differences from England's Test squad that lost so convincingly in the Ashes. Let me go through the headlines, and no bigger headline than the fact that Ollie Robinson, the Sussex fast bowler, uh, has been recalled to the England lineup, having taken 17 wickets in the county championship so far this year. 2 years away from the England Test side. Also sorts of question marks about fitness and one thing and another, but his impressive form for Sussex, not least with the bat I should add, sees him back in the Test squad after a couple of years. 32 he is now, a little more experience, and perhaps England just looking for somebody to lead that attack, having looked a little bit, I suppose, callow during the, during the winter months just gone. As we thought, Zak Crawley, the opener has rather paid the price for his performances during the Ashes and a poor start to the County Championship season for Kent with a high score of 34. And we'll wait and see who replaces him, but well in the fray we've got an uncapped trio. Emilio Gay feels the obvious option ahead of James Roo, who also gets a first opportunity, and an exciting fast bowler in there as well in Sonny Baker. So lots of interesting names to keep a little, uh, keep a little eye on, and we'll go through it as well, uh, in full detail so you can get a full appraisal of exactly how it's going to look ahead of that first test against New Zealand. Ben Stokes, Rayan Ahmed, Gus Atkinson, Sonny Baker, Shoaib Bashir, Jacob Bethell, Harry Brook, Ben Duckett, uh, Matthew Fisher, Emilio Gay, James Roo, Ollie Robinson, Joe Root, Jamie Smith, and Josh Tung. Alongside me, the BBC's cricket correspondent Stefan Schemelt and World Cup winner Ebony Rainford-Brent. And Stefan, lovely to have you with us. Uh, first thing that stood out immediately, Ollie Robinson.

Yeah, Ollie Robinson's comeback is, I think, is the biggest surprise, and I think Even though England lost so heavily in the Ashes, and I think a lot of people are expecting quite sweeping changes, it's not actually that much of a surprising squad. I've, I've counted 10 names out of the 15 that were part of the Ashes squad for the last Test match in Sydney, and the new names that have come in, we sort of expected Emilio Gay and James Roo were the obvious candidates to replace Zak Crawley. Sonny Baker is centrally contracted anyway, he's had a good start to the season, and then there's that question around the, the spinner um, spot. And Bashir was in the Ashes squad, and Ray and Ahmed England have liked for a long time. So there's a lot of those names that you would have expected that have been trailed quite heavily. It's Robinson that really does catch the eye because he was exiled by England 2 years ago. He's got a superb Test record, he's played 20 Test matches, I think it's 76 wickets that he's got, an average underneath 23. But England left him out for non-cricketing reasons. They grew frustrated with him for, for issues among among fitness and others. Um, so it is a surprise, I think, that, that he is back, and an admission from England that they do need an attack leader, someone who is going to be, I don't know, providing sort of traditional English values. And when you think that James Anderson, Stuart Broad, and Chris Woakes have all exited the international scene in the past 3 years— and I come back to that, to something that Brendan McCullum said before he even became England coach, or one of his mantras is 'If you can't change a man, you change the man.' Well, before England changed Robinson, well, now has McCullum changed to bring Robinson back? And I think that's what's going to be really interesting to see over the next few weeks.

And do we expect him to go straight into the side, I suppose, is the next question, Anthony?

Yeah, I think so. With obviously Joffre Archer away, um, with the IPL, so he won't be available. I sense with Ollie Robinson, he's— he knows what he's doing with a cricket ball. I think we all know that. He's got a new leadership role as well down at Sussex. And so if you're going to pay faith to someone like that who has that quality and the ability with the ball, I would suggest he gets that look in. And alongside the likes of someone like Josh Tung, who really mostly is one of the shining lights alongside Jacob Bephal, but the way he controlled the ball, you sense, you know, those two are going to play such an important role in rebuilding this, uh, this England bowling lineup. So I'm quite excited to see how he goes. I think That point you made there, Steph, about obviously the— I don't quite get my head around the changing of men and etc., but I get your point. You know, it needs some change in character and in style and in approach if you want to improve as a cricketer and in the culture and environment. And it feels like Brendon Cullum himself is going to have to revamp alongside Rob Key and then the likes here of Ollie Robinson. That would show that people can evolve, you know, you're not always stuck in one camp, you know, if he's done the hard work, they have faith in him, he's shown leadership skills and we know what he can do with the ball. I say get him in.

That line from Brendan McCullum, Stephanie, is a really interesting one, isn't it? If you can't change your man, you change the man. I mean, you could rather reflect that upon himself, given the winter and the fact that there was not quite an ultimatum from England, but that sense that he had to change his approach if it was going to be a relationship that went on.

I think that's the really fascinating thing around, um, England's response to the defeat in the Ashes, in that we still have the same director of cricket in Rob Key, the same head coach in Brendan McCullum, and the same test captain in Ben Stokes. And actually, we still await news of how the backroom team may, may change as well. Marcus Roscóthic and Jeetan Patel are still in place as assistant coaches. Are they— is there going to be a specialist fielding coach? What about the fast bowling situation? And as I alluded to just a minute ago, the squad itself isn't actually that different from that 15 men that have been named for the first test. England could name 10 in their 11 to play against New Zealand who were all in, in Sydney. So there's not loads of change there. Yes, there are some different names like we've mentioned, but there's not loads and loads of change. And so some supporters could, you know, would have every right to feel slightly underwhelmed by England's response. To that Ashes drubbing. And so it comes back to that point of how are England going to change?

Question for you, Steph, because one thing I've always thought, and this goes for the men and women's Ashes, is every 4-year cycle away when we get battered, we come in and there's a sort of a let's revamp and rechange it. This might actually be the first time we've done something a little bit different by sticking with the team and enforcing to see can they develop, because in some ways just sort of restarting hasn't worked for the 4-year cycles for a while. So actually the change here is by backing the team and getting them to improve the margins. I don't know, it's an interesting one for you because obviously the media and, you know, especially you in correspondent role, it's a strong line. It was just, I quite like that approach actually, is not always ripping it up and actually trying to see where the improvements within that squad you can get. If the players already have talent, the environment has talent, it needs improvement. So I don't know, you maybe— you would— you like more change, I guess, is my question.

Oh, look, I, I'm not advocating for more or less change. I'm saying that that is what has happened. There hasn't been changes. And you're quite right to say that often that does happen, that England go down under, um, they lose heavily, they will sack a captain, a director of cricket, a coach, or whatever. And that is not the case this time. It's just that the mistakes in Australia were quite glaringly obvious, and the characters involved are stubborn. And we can go back to the point that Brendan McCullum said, if you can't change a man, you change the man. What he means by that is, if you can't get someone to do what you want them to do, you get someone in who will do what you want them to do. Now, at the end of the Ashes, Brendan McCullum said, well, you know, if our ch— if changes are being imposed on me that I don't like, maybe there is someone else who should steer the ship. Those were his exact words. Now we know that conversations have taken place between, between McCullum and Key and the management of the EC board as to how this England team might move forward. Now we get to see what does change, what will change in terms of their approach around practice, around practicing fielding. Will Jamie Smith practice his wicketkeeping? We didn't see that very often during the Ashes. What will the batting approach be Um, what about the, the Shoaib Bashir project? All those things we know there's a curfew in place.

He's still in the squad. I mean, yeah, absolutely. Look, we'll have a proper sort of dive into a few of the names in there and, uh, and questions around it. But one other little bit of news today, which you reported last week, is Marcus North, uh, former Australia batter, been at Durham, he's been appointed, uh, a selector. How much of his hand, Stefan, do we think has been a part of this process for this squad?

Well, he was involved in picking the squad, um, because as you say, Henry, we've sort of known that he was coming into this role, um, for the best part of a week. England held interviews at the beginning of last week. What his influence is, we don't know yet. Rob Key's going to speak to us actually in about an hour and a half. But I guess what's interesting is we can see that players who have done well in county cricket at the beginning of this season Well, notice has been taken, hasn't it? Emilio Gay— Marcus North will know him very well, he's a batter up there at Durham. James Roo and Ollie Robinson, Sonny Baker— those are 4 guys who've really impressed at the start of the county season, and Marcus North will have his finger on the pulse in terms of being Durham director of cricket. So quite the influence that Marcus North has had. And like I said before, I don't think this squad is that surprising. What we can say is that England have paid attention to performances in county cricket at the beginning of the season.

Yeah, indeed. And we'll go through some of the numbers as well, uh, with, with our scorer Phil Long, who is sat alongside me. Phil, Ollie Robinson, first of all, I mean, what's he done this season to justify that selection?

Well, everybody mentioned it. First of all, you know, his role at Sussex— he's now captain of that team. I saw him on the opening day of the season, which was even colder at Leicester than it is here today. Um, yeah, it's had a— he's had a good old start to the season. 5 for at Leicester, 5 for 42 in the first innings, 0 for 20 in the second. He's followed that up with a couple of, uh, 3-wicket hauls against Leicester again. So they played Leicester twice, uh, down at Hove. 3 for 85, 3 for 46. But it's with the bat that he's really shown, uh, some form. He's batted 8 times in the County Championship this season, 5 times he's passed 39, and also made 100 not out against Surrey early on in the season.

Which is a good attack as well. So, so very encouraging figures. Um, and a lot of the talk around this England side, Ebony, has been about culture and the good and the bad. We spoke so much about the freedom, the positivity 4 years ago in 2022, and then also the negative sides of the, of the culture and, uh, and some of the issues around it, uh, with chips to Noosa and one thing and another. Um, And I suppose what they're looking for is the balance. And if they can show that someone can be rehabilitated into the squad in the manner that Ollie Robinson has been, then I suppose that sort of gives encouragement that cultures can change.

Yeah, definitely. I think you're right about the balance, isn't it? I think the England team that Brendan McCullum inherited needed freedom. It needed to kind of less fear in the mind, go out and be more expressive. And that was great. And, you know, I think we've had some entertainment, but also it needed the other side of professionalism, which is attention to detail, um, you know, practicing those hard yards, all those sort of things that appeared to be missing with the way that England went about those Ashes warm-ups, etc. But we can't miss that Brendan McCullum as a coach, and his win record is, is pretty decent throughout that period, despite maybe not closing out big series. It was a decent win percentage. And so Things were working. We were seeing players come and be able to dominate at periods, but also that, that other side of, of, of the culture that was needed just seemed to be missing. So I think if they can take those pros, that the, the team have that freedom, the rejuvenation, the ability to attack when the moment's there, and they can get that practice disciplines lined up, less of the nooses and, you know, situations that we know that happened in in New Zealand as well, um, in the winter from Harry Brook, etc. If they can tighten all of that up and really focus this team, shift that culture, you know, this could be a really exciting team going forward. The question is, can they change? I think this is what we're going to all be all over, and I think if we don't see enough, you know, shift in that between now and the next few tests, you know, England know that everybody will be all over them because of the winter they had. So I'm excited to see how they change. I love behavioral change. I think it's one of the hardest things to do, but it's also one of the most exciting things to see how can this squad develop. And if Brendan McCullum himself can, uh, you know, apply that, that focus that's needed around this squad, I think it could be quite fun.

Steph, this is the thing, isn't it? England do have a little bit of PR work to do. It feels like there was a sense come the end of the winter that sometimes England sides return from Australia having been soundly beaten and the frustrations are purely cricketing. But it felt a little bit like, uh, like the cricket-watching public felt that, that England had an opportunity as cricketers but sort of threw it away by a lack of discipline elsewhere.

I, I think PR is a good way to describe it, Henry, and the best PR is winning, isn't it? And that is the bottom line. So we can talk about off-field behaviors and approaches and all those sorts of things, and I think Ebs is spot on. We've talked about it a lot, that the England approach was, was perfect for when McCullum came in, and there were some very experienced players who just needed freeing up up, and it maybe hasn't been quite right when England have moved to some younger players and needed to be frankly taught how to play Test cricket. And I go back to, you know, we're talking about Nusir, I'll go back to Trent Bridge 2022, the first Bazball Test if you will, Jonny Bairstow and all that. How did England celebrate? Well, they were on the balcony straight after the game having a bit, having a beer, and later that night they were captured on social media in a takeaway in the small hours in Nottingham with Ollie Pope looking at his kebab like he's never been happier. The point is they've just won, hadn't they? And look at the winter, Travis We heard Andrew McDonald talking about him having— enjoying himself because he was on a winning team. I don't think the off-field stuff matters so much to England fans as long as England are winning. The problem they've got is that I think so much damage was done over the winter because of that opportunity that was seen that they had that they, you know, they wasted really. We know that McCullum has got 18 months left on his contract. Can he even succeed enough to remove the stain of that Ashes from his, from his reputation, from his legacy? That's what we're going to find out. And I do think if England don't start well, because New Zealand are a very good team, you look at their squad, it's very strong, the one that's coming over, then England could find themselves in, in trouble and really up against it in, in the PR battle pretty quickly.

So we knew really realistically Zach Crawley would have to be replaced at the top of the order. Uh, Phil, talk us through the numbers as to why that became a statistical certainty.

Well, the, the, the numbers speak for themselves really. Uh, 10 innings across, uh, the County Championship First Division this year, a top scorer of 44 against Derbyshire. Comes in, uh, comes after a test career At this point, he's only, you know, he's not— he's still a young man. Test career of an average of 31 across how many matches? Across 64 matches.

That's a huge amount of cricket. I mean, it's a vast sample size, and that sort of average—

Phil, again, average 64 matches, 117 innings, 3,586 runs, an average of 31.18.

Yeah, you want to see that up Massively. Look, it's at some stage there were going to have to be some casualties, and I feel that he's had a really good run over his career. Um, and those numbers are not where, you know, you want to be knocking down the door to keep that spot. You know, that's not an average that he will be proud of in terms of the amount of opportunities he's had. So, you know, it's time, it's time to move on.

Yeah, indeed. And moving on, uh, is, uh, hoving into view Emilio Gay, a dual international potentially, having played for, for Italy as well, West Indies qualified too, but in the England squad. And Phil, the numbers justify it.

Yeah, the Emilo Gay's numbers in the county championship this year couldn't be any different. Kicked off the season 128 against Kent, a couple of low scores to follow, then 159 not out against Lancashire, 129 against Middlesex. And in the most recent game that Durham played against Worcester, made 28 and 51 not out.

Steph, James Roo is the other batter that comes into the squad as, as somebody that's not yet played for England, and I think it's fair to say, given that he doesn't play that role for Somerset, Emilio Gay looks nailed on to open, right?

Well, you'd have to say that Gay's the favorite just because he is a specialist, like you say, Henry, even though he does bat number 3 for Durham. But that's just because he's got Ben McKinney and Alex Lees in the same team. I think earlier in the season, or at least the start of the season, it was felt that Roo was the most likely beneficiary of what could be a gap in the England team. And England asked Somerset if Roo could open, and he didn't, partly because he keeps wicket for Somerset. So that would have been quite a lot for him to take on. And then just now, this past weekend, he did open against Glamorgan. He was out for 4 for nought. I actually always suspected that both Gay and Roo would be in this squad just because England tend to pick one more batter than they need for home test matches, just have someone around as cover. And that's what Roo did last year. I think if you remember when Jordan Cox got injured, James Roo was called into the squad for the test match against Zimbabwe. As I said, Rob Key is going to talk to us in, in an hour or so. We might know more then if he, if he says yes, Emilio is— Emilio Gay is going to be the opener. But between now and the first test, there's a Lions match. One of those guys could play in that game. And they've also got a training camp in Loughborough. If they don't know who's going to open, maybe they'll use that time to work it out.

Yeah, it's going to be fascinating to see. And yeah, so much of the identity of this Brendan McCullum, Ben Stokes side has been about Zak Crawley and Ben Duckett at the top of the order. And actually, statistically, they've been a very successful opening partnership, but a lot of that has been down to Duckett's effort.

Yeah, massively. And I, I think that's going to be an interesting one to see how the opening partnership sets a new tone. You know, Ben Duckett obviously has a very clear way in which he plays. Amelia Gay has been consistent with runs, but are they going to go for that same sort of dual attacking approach? Are they going to try and, you know, give that new ball a little bit more time? Um, you know, and I think the danger as well would be for someone like Amelia Gay to come in and try and play in that old style. Or when I say old style, England's, you know, more aggressive style, because you need to give yourself time as a new person blood in international cricket. Him or James Roofer, if it is that down that line, and you can get yourself trapped in trying to be almost so positive. Clearly his natural way is working for him and he will score at a good rate. I don't know what his, uh, strike rate is in that, Phil. Be interested to see how he's gone in that in the season. But we will see, you know, you'll see a difference. It's not going to be that partnership where Zak Crawley loved to get on that front foot, use that height, and, you know, try and punch it down the ground with Ben Duckett, you know, cutting and pulling and advancing. It will have a slightly different flow. So, you know, that, that's the other thing, it's got to step up. The one good thing, I mean, it's a really random stat, but I saw that he went to Bedford School, Emilio Gay, same as Alistair Cook. So openers from Bedford School might have a little bit of a history to make. So, you know, he's got an opportunity if he gets that chance.

Steph, what sort of player are we expecting? Come on, talk us through the— what England have seen beyond the numbers.

Can I say a normal opening batter? Does that make sense? Well, you know, someone with— he's got, he's got a solid defense as Emilio Gay. He leaves the ball when he has to, and when he does attack, he attacks with a little bit a flair. I do think sometimes, and I will defend England on this point, I do think we get carried away with this idea that they are told to bat in a certain way, or there is some sort of one-size-fits-all approach to batting that if they don't conform to, that will somehow go against what they're being told, certainly by Brendan McCullum. I think that might have been the case at the beginning of the Stokes-McCullum era. Remember when Ben Stokes was walking down the pitch and tried to hit everything out of the ground. But I think it was actually they just got themselves into a situation where they favored attacking players like Zak Crawley, Ollie Pope, Harry Brook, Jamie Smith. These are all guys who like to get on with it. And there was a little bit of a shift during the Ashes, certainly from Stokes himself. He dug himself a trench, didn't he? At times he was asking the batters to show a bit of dog, as he called it. I just wonder if actually now England have batters who are more um, at home at a less attacking tempo. Look at the way that Jacob Bethell batted in the, in the last Test match in Sydney. We know what Joe Root does. And, and Emilio Gay, he will not be the sort of player who really wants to get after the bowling like Zak Crawley do.

He'll be a more classic opener's temperament, which would be fascinating to see because we know that Duckett is somebody that is, yeah, likes bat and ball and he, he's quite the aggressor. So, uh, how that combination works will be really, really interesting to see. So many elements of this side have familiarity to them, but they, you know, if you just dig a little deeper, there are some omissions. Ollie Pope, we, we saw struggling in, in the Ashes series, dropped at the back end of it, and, and perhaps no surprise that he's having had lots of opportunities, he misses out like Zak Crawley.

Yeah, I think Again, another player who has had that, that chance, you know, and has been, you know, given the vice captaincy as well. So he's been, you know, really well backed by that environment. He's very talented, you know, you— when you see him in full flow, it's great. But the problem is, especially in a series like that, and then when Jacob Bethell stepped into that role, I think that was kind of the death nail.

Seeing someone so young come in with composure and make something look easy, it made you feel that that is I always think it must be appalling for a player in that position because you're standing on the balcony wildly applauding the Hundred thinking, "Oh, thanks a lot." That's me done.

Yeah, I've definitely— I've been in that position. It is a shocker because you're grateful for your teammate doing well, but you know that it's the death knell for you. So, you look, Ollie Pope will be feeling that, you know. I think there's nothing worse as a player. It's one thing sometimes players feel like they don't get backed, and then it's, you know, it's because you didn't get the opportunity. That's one thing. But when you have been given the opportunity and technical things keep creeping into your game, um, you know, making the same mistakes and the fishing outside the off stump, all those sort of things that just sort of built up, and then the overall series, you know, he'll look back and think, you know, the only person really to blame would be himself. He was there, he was in those prime positions, uh, he worked on his game, captained, he captained, kept wicket, you know, he was really in the mix. So you know, that's gonna hurt. And, you know, he's still young enough, I'm sure there's this time to reinvent himself. Um, but I think from the looks of how Bethel, you know, stepped up in that moment, that, that really, I think, was the death knell for his selection.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. What about the bowlers then, Steph? And Sonny Baker's a name that has been doing the rounds for, for a little while, somebody that you've spoken to as well. Fast terré bowler, but getting that control as well. I mean, that's a really exciting pick.

Yeah, Sonny Baker. Look, I really like Sonny Baker as a character and as a bowler. Um, he bowls with pace, um, he swings the ball. Um, a lot of people will remember that he didn't have particularly happy, um, white ball debuts last year, both in one-day and T20 cricket. The one-dayer against South Africa at Headingley, he was on a bit of a hiding to nothing. England were bowled out for a low total and Harry Brook kept bowling him really in the hope that he'd get his first international wicket. And when I spoke to Sonny Baker a couple of weeks ago, he said, look, I can sort of park that. I can see the situation there. But what he was really disappointed with was his T20 debut against Ireland in Dublin, where he said, I was just trying to claw back what I did at Headingley, and I went away from being myself. I went away from bowling with variation. And he calls himself a carry-on merchant. And what he means by that is if he goes past the edge, he wants to get up and oohing and aahing and getting in the batter's face. And he said, look, I just didn't do that that day in Dublin because I was so conscious of what had happened on my one-day debut. And so I do think he brings a little bit of what England need, both with his skills with the ball and that little bit of oomph in the pace attack, which I think they were missing in Australia. If you think that some of their seam bowlers are quite quiet characters, um, I'm not sure that he'll play. I think he's probably— of the 5 seamers in the, in the squad for the first Test match, I think he's probably the 5th one because we haven't discussed that Joffre Archer isn't in the squad for that. He's not going to be ready after his IPL stint and will probably be ready for the second test. But look, Sonny Baikie, he's got a load of talent. He will play test cricket for England. He's got a central contract. Whether or not that comes right now, well, we'll wait and see.

Other seamers in the squad, Ollie Robinson we've mentioned, Josh Tongue, who had a really impressive Ashes series, Gus Atkinson, uh, Matthew Fisher as well, uh, is, uh, into the squad and, uh, looking to add to that test cap that he got during that funny series in 2022, the sort of the, the final knockings pre-Bazball when Joe Root's captaincy came to an end in, in the West Indies. So we'll wait and see if he gets, gets an opportunity. Now the spinners, Rian Ahmed looking for a home test debut, and he's there again, Sherwood Bashir. He did an awful lot of drinks carrying in the winter. He's moved to Derbyshire and, uh, back in the England squad. Ebbs, do you think they just like him around?

It was a really— it was one of the oddest moments, wasn't it, last year, is kind of, you know, and just seeing clearly that they didn't back him to be able to come out and really handle that pressure. You know, he'd gone through a few injury issues and stuff like that building into it, but it just didn't feel that they backed him when they normally do back him quite strongly. And they have done, you know, as a young pick, uh, you know, wasn't always getting the county experience, and they, you know, drafted him into the side. What he does possess though You know, he's got that height, he's got those big hands that can get, you know, some revs and a little bit of dip going on. And I feel with a young bowler like that, if they can get him back to his best— clearly they've had a period, uh, to work with him. You know, he is something exciting to work with as a long-term talent. And, you know, we've, we've had many challenges with spinners over the years, but he's got, he's got the makings. And so I think if they've got the— if they can get the mind right, um, and they can get that confidence in him long-term, he's an exciting prospect. But he's had an odd winter, and it'll be interesting to see how he handles that. If he gets back on the pitch with a ball, you know, will he come out showing that confidence, or will there be some scars from the past? So it'll be interesting to see how he goes.

It was intriguing as a series in Australia, Stefan, for so many reasons, not least that you bowled as many balls as Shoaib Bashir did, uh, during the course of it. And you gave him a 0 out of 10 for his tour. He didn't get picked, which I thought was rather harsh. Um, but, uh, but he's back in the squad.

Yeah, I think that the spin bowling was the area of England's Ashes master plan that was most exposed, wasn't it? In that Bashir was hothoused in Test cricket. England tried to turn him into the spinner that they thought would succeed in Australia. He got that injury in the middle of last summer, and then they just felt like they couldn't pick him. They went with Will Jacks, and, and it was ultimately a mistake not to have another spinner around, another frontline spinner. That could have played when England realized that Bashir wasn't the man. But I, I agree with Ebs. I think there's a lot to like about Shoaib Bashir in the, the raw ingredients that he's got as a bowler. No one is saying that he's the finished article right now. And the other thing that England like about him is his temperament. They've liked what they've seen about him as a character in the time that he's been in the Test squad. I don't know who out of Bashir and Rayan Ahmed is the first choice, if England would either— might even consider not playing either of them. They've got Bethel and Root around. Could they go with an all-specialist seam attack? Ben Stokes doesn't like doing that. I suppose the other thing to say about Shoaib Bashir is just having him around is no bad thing because domestically they're about to go into a stint of, of T20 cricket. Would he be in Derbyshire's T20 side? I'm not sure. So maybe being around the England team is better for him. And also England could have got themselves into the weird situation whereby they picked him when he wasn't getting in the Somerset team and then didn't pick him when he was playing regularly for Derbyshire. I, I think it's, it's quite interesting that they've picked Shoaib Bashir. I'm quite pleased that they have, actually. I think he deserves it.

Yeah, it's a couple of 3s, 4s of late. Still only 22, uh, so yeah, he's, he's somebody that's got plenty of cricket. Yes, spinners, they do, they do mature a little bit later as well, is, is the other point that, that we look at in all of this. Um, in terms of the series itself It's 3 Test matches starting on the 4th of June. You'll hear it all on Test Match Special, uh, on BBC Sounds, regular podcasts, your highlights, all of the normal services that we, uh, that we'll bring you. Uh, so Lords is the first test, 4th of June. Then the second test, uh, at the Oval, unusually early on in the summer, uh, from June 17th. And then, uh, Trent Bridge from June 25th. So that's That's how the series is shaping up. And Steph mentioned it, Ebony, but New Zealand are not going to be an easy prospect. They are a serious team.

Yeah, I mean, they've got some pace in Matt Henry and Karl Jamieson. I mean, they're going to be charging in. And I think, you know, the other thing about New Zealand, they experience similar conditions to ourselves, so, you know, they will be getting that ball hooping if there's any overhead conditions. It will be a real test, you know. The new ball bowlers will come with some real spite. And obviously they've, you know, they've been successful in Test cricket, looking at World Test Championships they've got to, etc. They, they come with a real pedigree. And so this is actually a really good challenge for England. You know, it's in some ways it's not the big-name team that we always talk about, Australia and India, but they are a very, very high-quality team that are going to be a silent danger. So England are going to have to be so well prepared. You know, if the ball— if they come out with the ball straight away There'll be challenges if they come out with the bat. They've got so much experience, you know, from their captain down, from Tom Latham, etc. So I think this is— I think with everything that's gone on over the last, what, 6 months or so with the Ashes, I feel like this is a perfect home series test. New Zealand, high-quality test side, they will be coming hard and consistently at England, and it will be a real battle for England to have to be able to stand up against them. So I'm looking forward to it.

Yeah, Steph, I think Ebs makes a really good point actually. It's, it's a proper test where in some ways we've seen it with the England women's side, sometimes they'll have a really difficult series and then actually it's all sort of papered over a little bit because they play another series shortly afterwards against a far inferior opposition and you don't quite know where they stand and what lessons have been learned. But this is going to be a real proper test.

I'm not sure that England start as favorites actually when you look at the strength of that New Zealand team and the pace bowling that they will come at England with. The interesting thing about all this are the parallels between that first summer of McCullum and Stokes trying to rebuild, um, from an ashes hiding in Australia against the same opponents, um, at the same ground. You know, the first test is at Lord's, the difference being there will be no honeymoon here. Can you remember the first day of that first test match against New Zealand at Lord's when England bowled New Zealand out cheaply? Then I think they were 8 or 9 down themselves after the first day. They won thanks to a brilliant knock by Joe Root in the fourth inning. Same at Trent Bridge, New Zealand piled up 500+ in the, in the second test, and then England won because of that brilliant run chase on the final day. If it doesn't go well, like I say, there is no honeymoon period. The pressure really will be on McCullum, Stokes, and Key early on in the summer.

And that's the, that's the big challenge, isn't it? And that is why they've got, I suppose, experimental to to show a degree of learning perhaps with the squad selection, but also some, yeah, trustees, some— yeah, yeah, you'd have been surprised if Joe Root had been left out. But it's going to be a really interesting series. Look at that, that New Zealand side, some of the names in there. You've got such experience in Latham, Conway, Williamson back again, Blundell the wicketkeeper, Daryl Mitchell, Glenn Phillips, and Rachin Ravindra has become one of the best in the world. Matt Henry, Kyle Jamieson, And Willow Rourke as well with the, with the ball. So it's going to be a really interesting series, and I can't wait for it to, to get underway. And we'll know an awful lot more about where this England side are come the end of it. By the end of June, when, when that 3-match series is done, we're going to have a much better guide as to where everything is.

Yeah, look, I think this is what I like about sport. I prefer seeing a team come from behind, have to rebuild. It becomes an exciting story. Or I like seeing in boxing a proper knockdown, and then someone gets back Tyson Fury, when he stood up, that moment when he got knocked down was one of my favorite sporting moments. I think for England— sorry, I'm getting a little bit carried away. You're like, why are we talking boxing when we're on a cricket?

I especially enjoyed the punching of my shoulders.

Yeah, just to really show the point.

Yeah, yeah, to really show— well, I'm glad you didn't mention an MMA.

Yeah, we didn't go there. But I guess my point is, if England come out of this New Zealand series 2-1 up and they've played disciplined cricket, they've fought off some strong bowlers. All of a sudden the tone changes, you know, this side has come from being battered down under and they are now on a new train. And it becomes an inter— and have they changed their approach? It becomes an interesting story as a sports fan, you'll get into it equally because of what's just happened. If it starts wrong, like Steph says, outlaws, and let's say that, you know, it goes downhill, that narrative can spiral quite quickly. And I think English fans as well, we can get on that, um, that train, and then the pain of the Ashes will come. So I think that first test, the first day, the first session is going to be so important for England. If they can come out and win it— and when I say win, it doesn't mean score at 200, I just mean a solid session, don't lose more than 2 wickets, kind of solid test cricket— then England can start that series, um, you know, and get some momentum building. But if it goes wrong early on, then they have to deal with that media pressure as well.

A big first hour with the first hour of this— I've not heard of one of those as a big first. Now we normally get the big first hour midway through a game or a series. Um, Stefan, just, uh, just before we, we wrap up, um, yeah, your sense is that, that this is a series that perhaps has a little bit more on it than perhaps, um, normally a post-Ashes series might do?

Well, well, in, in theory, Brendan McCullum has a, has a contract for the next 18 months, and if you asked anyone in the England hierarchy at the minute, they would expect him to honor that through to the World Cup in 2027. I think the interesting thing about the fact that England are coming up against New Zealand, and this is, I don't know, given the fact that also that Brendan McCullum is a New Zealander and used to captain that team, but if you think about the image of the England team that he leads now, The New Zealand team couldn't be more opposite, could it? They are workmanlike, they are greater than the sum of their parts, they give you nothing. You would expect them to work incredibly hard, to be sharp in the field, all those things that maybe we criticize England for not being. And yeah, like we started this conversation saying, well, often the first Test match after an Ashes series is the start of a new era, that a new captain or a new coach or whatever has got some leeway because there is a rebuild being done after a disappointment in Australia. Well, those new things aren't there now, are they? All we are looking for is a new approach and signs of progress because we haven't really had new personnel. That means that those that have survived, well, they have got less leeway if it goes wrong this summer.

Yeah, and again, I think the knives won't necessarily be out quite in the way that an Ashes series generates ebony because of the fact that, you know, more eyes are on Ashes series and people feel that additional sense of pride, uh, perhaps. But, but there will be from those that have, you know, perhaps that big collection of people that traveled across the world to follow England, that bit of a sense of, you know, they're going to be out.

Yeah, I think they're going to be out very quickly. And if also the off-field, if anything gets spotted on the off-field as well, I think think that narrative will spiral because of the winter. Uh, Steph, were you in Noosa? I know you dropped a bit of that information of the story around that. Were you in?

Oh yeah, he was poking his head out.

Were you on the jolly when you picked up the story?

I had a lovely time in Noosa. I give my regards to the Queensland Tourist Board. Um, do you know what, Henry, just going back to your point, the one word that I think would sum up, um, what we're looking for this summer, it's trust, isn't it? How do, how do England rebuild that trust between themselves and the supporters? In that, if England lose matches, well, anyone can lose a game of cricket, anyone can be outplayed by their opponents. New Zealand have got a lot of good cricketers that could come here and win Test matches by their own individual performances. How can England and Brendan McCullum and Ben Stokes and Rob Key rebuild the trust that they are giving the best possible account of themselves, giving themselves the best chance to succeed on the field through their off-field activities and their on-field approach. It's trust that's got to be rebuilt, and at the moment that trust is very, very thin. And I'll go back to the point of, I'm not sure whatever England can do over the next 18 months when we expect this McCullum-Stokes regime to break up— that's the longest I think it could possibly run, to the end of next summer— Even winning the Ashes next summer, I'm not sure if that will eradicate the, the pain or whatever you want to call it from what happened in the— in Australia in the winter just gone.

A question for you, Steph, because you— there's two things that stood out for me. So this trust point, which I think is very important, the other was they need to win. Which comes first for you? So let's say that first test England do everything disciplined but don't win, but they show, you know, character and they show discipline on the field and they show that they've been preparing well. Do you think that, that will have anything, or do you think actually just right now the only way to get back in favor is winning matches? I don't know, where does that line draw for you?

I think it strikes, it strikes to the very heart of why does sport exist, doesn't it? And I would actually hold my hands up and say I think I was probably, um, too easily swept up in, in the, the idea of what England were trying to achieve, um, in the early days of the McCullum-Stokes regime. So for example, you remember the Test match in Wellington against New Zealand when they lost by 1 run? After enforcing the follow-on. And a lot of us were saying, well, what an amazing Test match, what a great advert for Test cricket, aren't we all, you know, is it brilliant that we all saw that. And actually, what got lost in that was that England threw that match away. And you can trace back, actually, England's inconsistency started on that day. England were 2-nil down in the home Ashes, and a lot of their mistakes in those first 2 Test matches got covered up by the Jonny Bairstow stumping, Zak Crawley's 100, Stuart Broad at the Oval. So I, I don't know if there's a right or wrong answer to your question, Ebbs. I think it, it comes back to what, what does sport exist for? Do we want our teams to play in a certain way, or do we want them to win? Both would be preferable, wouldn't it?

Well, indeed. But I think most sports fans who are passionate about a team look for the win and then worry about the, the method after that. I think if, you know, if you're an Arsenal fan, you're not going to demand this, you know, back end of the season that it's all glorious football. You're going to want the win. That's, that's the key. And you don't—

yeah. And one last thing, Stefan, it was quite a strong point you made about it. You don't know if the 18 months is enough to pull back that damage. I don't know, it depends on whether England go on that streak and win the home matches and stuff. I think obviously we'd have to see a bit of a turnaround and, and like you say, that trust. But I think that's quite harsh. I feel there is room if England get to winning consistent ways and put in some measures behind that show that they've adapted. So I don't know, we'll see. Well, we will know, we'll know in 18 months' time.

We will. England's— sorry, go on, Steph.

I guess it was Brendan McCullum, wasn't it, who said that the Ashes in Australia would define that group? And I suppose the bottom line is, can Stokes and McCullum simply get back to leaving this England team in 18 months' time in a better state than what they found it? I think that's a minimum requirement right now.

So that series gets underway Thursday the 4th of June. You'll hear it all on Test Match Special, uh, with coverage beginning from Lord's. We'll, uh, we'll be on the outfield, we'll be ready to go. Hopefully it'll be a lovely sunny summer's morning, uh, that first test Thursday the 4th of June. Then it's 17th of June at the Oval, and then Trent Bridge, uh, for the final test of the series from the, uh, 20 5th of June. So that's how England is shaping up in terms of their Test series. From the start of July, then it is T20 Internationals. There's a heap of them against India, 5 matches right around the country, and then there's 3 ODIs as well to boot. And, and then we go on to those Test matches between England and Pakistan through the middle of August into September, and, and then concluding with that series against Sri Lanka, the T20s and one-day as right through until the back end of September. So it is a very busy time of it for England's men's side, and you'll hear it all on Test Match Special. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

BBC Women's Football Weekly, the latest news, insights, and analysis from across the women's game.

Dame Serena Viegman, welcome to the— are we including Dame in your title now?

You know how much an honor that is. Remarkable team under this remarkable woman. We want to play in a way that they can show their skills, so that's what we're trying to do. Win the World Cup, it's a dream.

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