Robinson rout continues as Sooryavanshi surges to international stage

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

So, 3 days into this, uh, Test match at Lord's, we still await its ultimate conclusion. New Zealand needing 254, uh, to win. We had 3 small passages of play on the 3rd day, and New Zealand limped along to 55 for 5. We had 21.3 overs, so severely a rain-shortened third day. Blundell is there on 2, Conway is there on 19. But in the play that we did see, England chipped away. Ravindra balled by Robinson for 8, and Mitchell LBW Robinson for 2. So 2 more for Robinson, he's getting 7 wickets in the match. He's had a great return, Michael.

Yeah, I mean, he's had, uh, perfect conditions. I think he'll be the first to admit that. If he was ever going to build himself a pitch. This is the pitch he'd like built for himself. It's just had everything that a seamer of Ollie Robinson's class would want. There's uneven bounce, there's movement. He can't have to try too much. I love the move of Jamie Smith coming up to the stumps, you know, to get rid of Dale Mitchell. That was a good piece of tactic. I think that instruction came from the balcony, actually, from Baz McCullum. So that's good from McCullum to kind of lead the way in that front. Um, I've been slightly surprised by New Zealand's approach actually, because I, I said last night I think the only way that they win is by causing a bit of chaos. Now if you haven't got your top orders, um, top order players generally like to play the way that they play, understandably. I just wonder if it was worth just throwing in someone just to try and swing, just to spread the field. The only way they're going to win this game is if the cores care, spread the field, and then those better balls you get ones off them because cover points on the boundary, square legs back, mid-on and mid-off go a bit deeper, so then you can knock it into this, the gaps on the offside, onside— you get more runs. Um, clearly you've got to take that risk first and foremost. And if a top order player is not going to want to do that, would it be worth just sending Jameson in a little bit early? Maybe that's what they could have done. They haven't. They've tried to play the traditional way. I just feel if they play the traditional way, it's just going to be a slow death. I can't imagine anything other than an England win. I can't imagine anything other than England win now because of the pitch and the situation. But the only glimmer that I could give New Zealand if someone like Glenn Phillips comes out and whacks it with Jameson and the pair there at the middle suddenly come out tomorrow morning, go, right, just got to swing and try and cause a bit of chaos. If they don't do that, I think they'll get absolutely beaten comfortably.

Do you think they should have sent Jameson in already then?

He should have come in. It would be a conversation I would have had, yeah, because the only way that they get close to this target is by causing chaos. And if a top order player doesn't want to try and play that way, again, I'd understand it. You know, and this is a radical way, but you're on a pitch that's completely different to what you usually get in Test match cricket, and you have to think out the box. And, you know, I just looked at Ollie Robinson, the way that he played yesterday, just, it was, it was, you know, baseball really, but the field spread and he managed to get a few quite quickly. So, um, yeah, that's the only hope I give New Zealand if they go for that approach.

Yeah, I, I do agree with Michael entirely. Um, it's perhaps not an easy decision to take when you're not used to doing that. I mean, England probably more just— I mean, you look at Travis Head at Perth, but I'm really pleased with Robinson. He gives control, and I know that the pitch has helped him here, but you know, it allows Josh Tongue to come running in and bowls hostility. Other end, if you've got somebody who's just really steady like that, sort of metronomic, um, you know, on, on a, on a flat pitch, you can, you can, you can let your fast bowler go at the other end and, and try. I thought he bowled beautifully, uh, in very helpful conditions. Um, yeah, I mean, that's— there's not a lot more you can say about it. It just seems that England, I think, are going to win the game. If New Zealand had held their catches, uh, we wouldn't be sitting here now. It would be a day and a half game. Um, the pitch we talked about a lot, and clearly that is going to be something that's going to have to come under review from the MCC after this match. I was talking to the cricket director last night, actually. I mean, he's kind of shattered about the whole thing, sleepless nights and all that, you know. And of course, you know, um, The pitch has to be right, doesn't it? The pitch has to be good, and I don't mean good by being flat and being eroded or that either. You want interest in the game, but there's a pattern developing here at Lord's, and they're going to have to, they have to do something about it.

Do you think New Zealand would have preferred to have no play at all today because the forecast is good tomorrow and the prospect of, you know, a brighter day actually—

they've got a batting day tomorrow, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, it wasn't easy No, it's not easy for both sides when you're off and on, but certainly a chasing side, you want a period of time, don't you, that you can settle in, cause that bit of chaos, and then Ben Stokes has to change his bowlers and work a bit more on his tactical side. But it's been a nice day for England, just a couple of wickets, not too many runs for New Zealand, and England will know tomorrow that if they arrive and just bowl the consistent lengths and lines and hit off stump, that's all they need to do is keep bowling on and around that good length where the ball's going to hit the off stump, and I'm pretty sure there'll be 5 balls with a name or 2 on it.

Yeah, because it's still nearly 200 to win.

That's a heck of a lot of runs, isn't it, in, in, on, in this, and with what the batting that's left. Um, yes, I mean, if England lose from here, um, I mean, the only thing is that, and again, going back to Michael's earlier point, I mean, England's confidence, it, it, you know, it's okay, it seems okay, but it's gonna be fragile. And if they had just come out, you know, positively and actually got to 70 for 2, where it may be, you know, I mean, playing like that, there would have been some pressure on.

Well, Finney said earlier, and you'll probably agree as a bowler as well, is that what you actually want from a batter on this pitch is to try and play conventionally.

You can just run bowl at them.

But you're not going anywhere. You just know there'll be a ball. But what you don't actually want is someone kind of clearing the frontside and launching you. Getting a bit of— you'll need a bit of fortune, but you know, the ball suddenly starts going over the slips and then goes to cow corner. You think, where'd you put your fielder? I better put a few back. And then obviously you bowl a good ball and there's a single. Yeah, exactly. Um, that's the only way that they can get close to, uh, this England target. But I think, you know, the one thing for England, they, they haven't won yet, but they had to win this week, you know, from 140 all out in the first thing. You could tell the atmosphere up here was a bit, here we go. You know, New Zealand get 250, England are going to go 1-0 down, it's going to get messy. You know, this, this management team are on that kind of cusp of if they lose a game in the first game of the summer, um, you know, people will start to say that they made the wrong call and keep them all together. So it's so important for this team and this management group that they win this week, and it looks like they're going to get that victory.

Throughout all this though, we've got Devon Conway, he's batted for nearly 22 overs for 19, so he kind of just managed to cling on.

Is he brave? He's taken some horrible blows. Um, it has been a brave knock. He's scored a double hundred here. I mean, you know, we talk about, you know, New Zealand's prospects, but you know, he, he can play. Blundell can play. Um, you know, they're not, they're not utterly bereft, but it's just the way that the ball has behaved, isn't it? I mean, you, you, if you're about to try and survive, then it suggests in the game so far at least it's going to get you in the end, doesn't it?

Is this game been a bit of a lottery really, in a sense, you know, because of the pitch?

Yeah, yeah, but you know, two teams have had to play on it, and you know, Agus mentioned the catching, you know, if New Zealand— so that's skill, that's nothing to do with the pitch. So you know, England, I don't remember them having to catch too many because it's been LBW and bowls. So they've bowled better than New Zealand because you'd say that they've bowled straighter and a better length. And, uh, New Zealand in the field, not just their catching, they've been messy. You know, I think it's been a messy week in the field for New Zealand. If they'd have caught and they'd have been a little bit sharper in the field, I reckon they could have won this Test match. So, um, same for both teams. England so far have been a lot better.

They've had a pretty miserable few days actually, New Zealand, dropping those catches. They all look at those umpire's calls for the LBWs, another one today, but you just throw back at them, yeah, but you dropped those catches. They're going to have to be honest. If they do gripe about the umpire's calls, which I've had— what was it, 3? I had that 2 over the morning before. You know, it's the sort of thing that you can— if you, if you do lose a game, you can kind of focus on negatives like that. What do you— they've got to put that away. Um, and if they do lose, heck, go back at the Oval and play better, catch better.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Now there is an opening batter, a left-hander, who's causing many more headlines at the moment, and that is Suryavanshi, Vaibhav Suryavanshi in India, and he has been picked today in India's T20 squad for the series against Ireland and England. They play two test— two T20s in Belfast at the end of June, India, and then they play a 5-match series against England which starts in Durham on the 1st of July, then games at Manchester, Nottingham, Bristol, and Southampton. And we'll bring you those games here on 5 Sports Extra. Um, Right call, Michael. 15 years of age. I mean, he's just made 776 runs in the IPL, a strike rate of 237.

He's, he's 15. It absolutely is the right call. And I honestly have watched him over the last year or so, and you, you study when he scores his runs and you look at the eliminations in the IPL. 15 years of age, you got a 97. The next game he gets a 96. You look at an Under-19 World Cup final, what does he do? Gets 175. So this kid can just deliver when it really matters. Um, we're, we're watching and studying something very, very, very special. I honestly, at this minute, I think he's the best T20 player in the world. I honestly— strike rates are beyond anything that we've ever seen. He's hitting Jasprit Bumrah's first ball for 6. Pat Cummins's first ball for 6, Josh Hazlewood's first ball for 6. So he's not hitting trundlers, he's damaging the best bowlers in this generation. And people are kind of already having huge debates of how to bowl to a 15-year-old. You know, we had Liam Livingstone on the show, you know, we, we want to go straight, go straight and full. You have mid-on and off, you have your kind of mid-off, mid-off back. You miss your length by an inch he's smacking you out the ground. Forget where the field— he just hits it over the top of the field. He hits 77 sixes in the IPL. 77 sixes in the IPL, more than anyone. I mean, it was a record that stood, I think, for 14 years, and he's broken it as a 15-year-old. Um, it's his bat swing. He clearly has an incredible eye, but he's clearly got an amazing awareness of the cue of the bowler. So he can assess the field, but you know, as a batter, you see a cue in what the bowler is going to deliver. The real great players can just see it before the ball's released. It's an action, you know, they'll see a head drop for the bouncer and they see a little bit more upright for the fuller ball. He clearly can see the cues of the bowler earlier than many, um, and he can smack it over extra cover, over deep square leg, he can hit it over third man for six, uh, Teams went short into his right shoulder, caused him a couple of problems at the start of this year's IPL. He got out a couple of times playing the hook shot early. Worked that out by the back end, he started to sway and put it over third, then came inside the line and put it over fine leg. Teams have tried to go really wide to him, inside the wide line, put two men out kind of point, third on the boundary. He has to again just still use the pace and put it over third man for six. I mean, I've seen Many, many great players. There's, you know, the Laras of this world, Tendulkar, brilliant players, Chris Gayle in T20 cricket. Uh, from what I've seen in a couple of years of studying, uh, Suryavanshi, I think he has it in him. And I actually bumped into him in Mumbai a couple of weeks ago, uh, had a great conversation. How did you prepare for the game? He said, watching cartoons. I, I said, are you training? What do you eat? He said, I eat everything. And I just chuckling to me. I said, you could be the first cricketer of all time to retire at 21. It's crazy. And, and actually, uh, Yashasvi Jaiswal was there, and, and Yashasvi's an incredible player. And if you actually look at that T20 squad, start naming the names that aren't in that squad. Suri Kumar Yadav, Yashasvi Jaiswal, Shubman Gill. So India have got an incredible group of, of white ball cricketers now, which is a real threat to the rest of the world. Because I look at the white ball World Cup and think, how's anyone going to beat India? You know, they could probably put out 3 teams across the 50s, across the T20s. I'd argue that India would play India in the final, and India would beat another Indian side in the semi-final to get to the final. They've got so much talent. So it's down to the rest of the world really to try and chase. Um, yeah, again, I, I'm in awe of the way that he plays. And I think if you ask the bosses of GeoStar who cover the IPL, I think if you said to them, come on, give us your viewership numbers across this year's IPL, I think they're down by 26-27%. And then you ask them a question, but when the kid comes out the bat, what happens? And Virat Kohli's had that spike, MS Dhoni's had that spike. I would argue that I reckon this kid is creating a spike across the globe now. I'm on loads of WhatsApp groups and a lot of my groups are football orientated. But when the word gets out that he's walking out to bat in the IPL, they're all watching him bat. So I think it's the right selection. He's earned the right. And for those 5 games in the UK in July, this country is going to light up. You know, Bristol, it'll be hitting them down to Taunton. I mean, Bristol's just not big enough for him.

It's ground in the world, isn't it, Simon?

Well, it used to be a big ground.

It was flat, so he'll be smashing all the windows.

He'll be hitting them onto the downs in Bristol.

Yeah. What's the public sentiment about him? Because you, you've been there. Like, is it— is he up there now? It's like Kohli, Dhoni, Suryavanshi. He's up in that.

It's Virat who? Yeah, you know, MS who? This— he's got his own minder. No, he strolls through the hotels and I've understandably, I've never seen anything like it. And, you know, he, you know, clearly he's going to have to be managed. You know, that's the one thing that I worry for a young player like that is everything surrounding what it's going to bring. And he clearly at the minute has a good— I think he's a good franchise in Rajasthan. I think they've got a good management group that will look after him. Um, but clearly in India, you know, Virat Lives here now because he can't live in India because of the spotlight and not having a normal life with his family. And I hope that's not going to be the case for Sri Vanshi, but—

but it is going to be the case, isn't it? We know it's going to be the case.

Well, I think, I think where it's good for him in India, you know, he's got Sachin who he could go and sit with, and Sachin's had to cope with, you know, being that prodigy since the, what, '80s, you know. He's been able to come through and cope with it, you know. MS Dhoni, Virat Kohli. They're all megastars over there, so he's going to have some, you know, good mentors to talk to and work with. But he's so exciting, he's an absolute joy to watch.

Katie, you've been commentating on the IPL, you've been watching Sri Avanchi play. What's your sort of take on it all?

Yeah, I mean, he's a superstar. He's— I think when he was a kid, he watched Brian Lara's clips on YouTube, and his dad taught him a lot like that.

And still a kid.

He's still— I know, I know.

When he was 5?

When he was 8, 8, yeah. He's like a lot of Indian kids that have grown up. They go to academies, their family move miles and miles away for them to get opportunity. But he's an X-factor. You drive to the ground to work on a game and it's always the most enthralling stuff looking out the window and seeing the crowds just storm towards the stadium. And I just remember seeing Suryavanshi Tops thousands, like en masse. And, and it's, you know, it's a Rajasthan Royals game, but even at non-Rajasthan Royals. And it reminds you of MS Dhoni, and you feel like he's that kid that's sort of going to take over the mantle of those two guys from a love from Indian cricket that will travel around different parts of India to go and watch him play. But when, when you look at him technically in the positions he gets— and I'm a bit of a cricket nuffy, so look, a lot of that. But his uniqueness in how he gets his backlift so far around that his bat's nearly pointing back at the bowlers— he creates such a load and base. And so many people go, how does a 15, 16-year-old kid create so much power? But he just gets in such a loaded position that he's just able to explode through the ball and hit with power. And he's hit, you know, Josh Hazlewood, Mitch Starc, they're all saying to each other, it's all right, we've both been hit from 6, from Suryavanshi, but he's a guy that plays the ball and not the man. And I think that's allowed him to, I guess, look mature and be mature because he says, you know, it doesn't bother me if that's Mitch Starc.

I'll be honest, I had a bit of a fan moment. Honestly, I don't think I've had that moment since meeting Chris Waddle back in the '90s. I honestly went, I was like, oh, Suryavanshi. I was like really excited to meet him. And I actually think you You know, okay, you've been at the grounds. I think a lot of the commentators, and actually Josh Butler, he said he was like in awe meeting this young kid. He's like, Pat Cummins has spoken out, you know, he said he's just an incredible, uh, player, a superstar. It's— look, cricket is doing fine, but, um, I actually look at Test cricket and say, whoa, can you imagine him? Oh yeah, putting on the whites of India. There's a long way to go before that. I mean, he hardly fields, so he's got to get used to fielding first. That's That's the one challenge as a young player. And I think Rajasthan will admit the reason why they put him on the impact sub bench in terms of fielding was because they wanted him completely fresh to bat, you know, because he's a young, young kid. And, you know, international cricket, you can't sit on the bench, you've got to field for 20 overs. And the next step up, if he's going to get in the 50-over team, which is no question he will, you know, will he make it for the World Cup next year? We'll have to wait and see. But, um, that's where they might have to be careful with him, you You know, fielding for 50 overs and then going out to create that kind of power, having had 3.5 hours in the dirt, could be a challenge for someone that hasn't fielded a great deal.

Yeah, they haven't put their one-day squad yet for the— there's 3 matches against England. I haven't seen a one-day squad yet, so— but we just know the T20 squad.

I'm just gonna just say about, um, the thing that reminds you of him still being a kid is he still cries when he gets a duck. And as we've— I mean, you probably still did when you were near retirement, Vorny, but, um, all kids cry when they get a duck. But when he wasn't fielding. He actually said to the coach, I want to be in the game, I want to make an impact. And you talk about Virat Kohli and MS Dhoni. So he, he got Virat Kohli to sign his Rajasthan Royals hat that he wears out. And so he literally was wearing his Rajasthan Royals cap with two vya baab from Virat, and it's signed from Virat Kohli. So he's fielding and batting in a signed Virat Kohli hat.

But you're absolutely— so in India, over the course, particularly the last couple of years with MS Dhoni, because I think everyone's been expecting the announcement. It still hasn't arrived. So every single game that Chennai would arrive all over India, all in yellow shirts. I noticed towards the back end when Suryavanchi arrived, even in Mumbai, you know, Mumbai are true blue. All the Mumbai Indian fans all wear their blue shirts. I noticed in that last game which Rajasthan had to win to qualify for the eliminations, there was a number of pink shirts. So the sway the last few, next few years the IPL, most venues, I would think, if Rajasthan State are playing pink, I would think most venues will be pink when the kid arrives.

What are the dangers for him? I mean, it's a lot quite young, isn't it? 15. Most people struggle to cope with that sort of thing. And you— I think probably sport is full of players who everyone said that person is going to be the next big thing, you know, people who were really good in their teenage years who kind of plateaued and some dipped and couldn't deal actually with the fame and the stardom. Can you think of players that you come across like that? Go on, Katie.

Prithvi Shaw, probably. He was— I mean, I don't— did you play against Symphony? But he was a guy that come in quite similar to Sri Avanchi, that explosive player. And I guess he got success so quickly. And what happens in India is you get people hanging around. You get people wanting, let's sponsor you, we'll give you this for free, we'll give you that for free. Even now people are saying he's gonna sign for Mumbai and get a free apartment somewhere where Mrs. Ambani's gonna buy that. So there's just all these people that start getting around and trying to get closer to people because they see him as an opportunity to get rich as well. So Prithvi Shaw was a guy that was very similar and he sort of just went off the rails with fitness and I know Vaibhav loves KFC. So that's something that they're working with him a lot more on.

I wouldn't be changing that if I was there.

It's working.

Yeah, it's just being able to manage that. And I remember watching that last game Rajasthan played, and he was talking of Virat Kohli, and you just saw Virat Kohli, like, with his hands indicate, stay in your lane. There's going to be people that are going to be here, but how do you just keep that focus of it's about cricket first and foremost? Have you— have trusted advisors around you that will help manage that kind of stuff? How do you just keep focused on cricket?

I think Virat, to me, is— so I played against Virat when we were 16, 17, we're the same age, so, um, all the way through, and he always struck me as a good person. So having people like that who can help guide him and nudge him in the right direction when he comes to a crossroads, or use them as counsel, I suppose, as people who have gone through it, you would like to think that he would be forthcoming with them.

The only thing I would say about that, Finney, is how old is Verrett now?

37.

Yeah, so he's almost probably his dad's age. Teenagers, teenagers don't listen to their dads, do they?

No, that's true, as you'll discover. Well, I've got a 17-month-old daughter, she doesn't listen to me.

So, um, she's hitting balls yet?

She's tall. I'm, um, I'm getting her to pick up a golf club though instead of—

I've, um, I, I've had my media advisor Pete Tufnell arrive with a piece of paper and he's mentioned the name and he's absolutely spot on. Not surprising with Phil. Vinod Kamble. Yeah, 200 against England on that tour, if that's right. Yeah, he's nodding his head, Philip. So Vinod Kamble, he was the superstar, Sachin's kind of prodigies. Uh, they had that massive partnership of 560-odd for— I think it was the school, uh, and and he obviously came into the inside and suddenly just went and pricked his— in a similar kind of way. The one thing that they've got to be careful in, there are some lights over there that you can get kind of drawn to. It's not like the old days where there was nothing really happening. There are bars, there are nights out, there's lots of people that you probably don't want to hang around with, like any place in the world. So the perfect advice I'd give, just try and stay close to Virat Veerat Kohli pretty much lived the purest life. He doesn't drink, eats everything right. I'm not saying that Surivanshi has to go completely down that route, but if I was him and around him in terms of management, you kind of go and kind of sit with Virat and Virat's team, go, right, what have you guys done? You know, because they seem to be doing a lot of the good stuff right.

I suppose the hard thing for him is that the bar that he has set at this age is so high, I'd say almost higher than anyone has ever done at such a young age. So is striking at 180 and averaging 35 next year going to feel like huge disappointment? And is he going to have to deal with the fans and everyone being disappointed in him only doing that? I suppose that's going to be a really interesting caveat for, for me to see is how, like you say, that his family, his franchise, the big players in India get around him in those kinds of situations of because everything kind of feels like— striking at 240 and scoring 770 runs is ludicrous. Striking at 240 for one innings is an amazing effort. You see fellas walking off with, 'Oh, I've struck at 240 there, brilliant.' He's done it for an entire season against the best bowlers. Like, what does disappointment look like now for him that the bar has been set so high?

I want to know who's going to have his car.

Surely his dad.

Well, yeah, he won a car. I mean, he won every award. The only award that he didn't win was the, the 4 hitting award. I don't know who ended up winning the boring along the ground award.

Yeah, probably some old guy.

I would think he'll never want to win that one. You know, he wants to continue launching it into the stands. But yeah, he's so exciting. He's great for the game. He will light up the UK when he arrives in a few weeks' time.

So one of his next challenges could be to translate white ball into red ball.

Can he do a warm-up game at Leicester in mid-June?

They don't play them anymore.

He's played a lot of 4-day cricket in India and has got decent records as well. I mean, he faced 600 balls a day throwing at him. His coach used to throw to him, and when he got tired, he got another support staff, and then he got the net bowler. And you know, there's 30 net bowlers at the back lining up batters anyway to bowl to. So he's grown up in India playing and practicing, and it's what you see so much. Players come into international stage, they've got an unbelievable batting technique, they've got the mindset They've got the discipline of training and the sacrifices that they've gone through. It'll be how we adjust the conditions in England, what is that going to look like, and whether there is opportunity moving forward for three-format players. Are we going to see that disbanding a little bit because of so much franchise cricket? Um, I don't know, we're going to see a Kane Williamson and a Joe Root who have pulled away from, from those formats, or whether that is an opportunity. And maybe the new Bazball is these modern-day players coming in that, that look to continue to hit the ball in a controlled fashion.

What do you do as a bowler? I mean, Finney, you're, you're a former bowler. What, what do you, what do you think you could come up with?

Head down, field at fine leg, look the other way.

It's a hamstring.

Yeah, no, I— that the one— there was a little period, wasn't there, in the, in the middle of the IPL where people started trying to bowl full straight Yorkers to him, and, and it seemed as though— I mean who has an answer to a perfect Yorker. But, um, it seemed as though that was his one weakness. But trying to run up with a brand new ball and bowl Yorkers is very, very difficult because, well, just the newness of the ball, the greasiness, the seam. Like, you want some grit. That's my personal feeling, was I wanted an older ball to be able to grip the seam to bowl the Yorker. It's— yeah, but I honestly, from watching him, I cannot find a weakness And it's ridiculous. I usually love— I really look forward to watching overseas bowlers come here. So I get really excited about watching Cummins, Bumrah, Hazlewood, Rabada. They're the guys that I look for the tours and I'm like, I cannot wait to sit behind the bowler's arm and watch those guys bowl. He's the first batter I've been excited about watching coming over here.

I think lateral movement, you know, I think in India and particularly this year's IPL, The pitch has been, yeah, roads. Ball's not been doing anything through the air, so I guess a little bit of lateral movement. There was a couple of innings though that he played down. There was only one innings late on in the group stage where actually didn't get off to a flying start, and I thought, oh, this is a good challenge because Yasiswi Jaraswal came out and struck. I think it was against Chennai, and, um, Jaraswal came out and he had some quick runs, and, and Suravanshi was at the kind of end, and he just started to not want ones. He went, oh, it's your day today. I thought, oh God, he's actually got a bit of maturity. Yeah. So that, that, that to me tells me he's hit loads of balls, he can clearly play the game, but he's also got a bit of sense about him. It's not just— he's not— look, I'm not just going to pick on Kyle Jamieson, but he just slogged, didn't he? He was just baseball. So he doesn't do that, you know. He hits proper cricket shots and he works out areas of the ground and he knocks it every now and again, uh, as said, if you miss your zones, um, it's pretty much irrelevant where you put your fielders. He's not too worried if there's a fielder on the boundary.

I'm going to offend Finney here because he's a fast bowler, but there was a— the KKR game where he played Narine, and I mean, everyone struggled against Narine, but spin early too.

He hadn't— Narine, just everyone— people might have watched— not watched the IPL, but he still had an incredible economy rate, didn't he? Narine, like, streets ahead of anyone else.

He probably didn't pick up wickets as much as we've seen because they sort of batters went defensive against him because they couldn't pick his variations.

Just see him off, don't they?

Yeah, they just saw him off. And then when he started having that partnership with Chakravarti bowling, that's when you know that KK started to find a bit of rhythm. Plus they picked the right team and had the right balance. But yeah, I think early on, if you can get spin to him and go, look, if he hits you for 6, that's fine, but how do you make that constant pace adjustment, that lateral movement? And that's going to be interesting in you know, how England and, well, Ireland first up, how they're going to go about that. Maybe just that difference in pace control. But he was certain when, when you sort of played in the bot, where you call the box, just upside off, off stump in there, you know, because he's always looking to go under the ball to hit for 6 over midwicket, he did get a little bit circumspect after he got out like that. But it's that extra, I guess, bounce that you get, and maybe the different conditions here might be how quickly does he adjust. Does he go a little bit more circumspect early to find a few balls to then work it out.

Yeah, my mind in these conditions— I hope Vorny's right— the pitches in the IPL have been absolute belters predominantly all the way through. But in these conditions here, but to a batter who does have that big backlift, who looks as though he wants to hit the same pace of ball all the time because of the way the bat flows on pitches this here, I personally would set a square field on the leg side. I'd try and bowl quite straight and change your pace as much as you can and hammer over the top of the stumps and hope that the pitch gives you a bit of variation and movement and that your changes of pace can disrupt his swing. But when guys have tried that in the IPL on such true surfaces, he just seems to hold off and then lash it. Whether, whether the wickets here will be slightly more challenging for him, for bowlers who, who can bowl to that kind of plan, will be really interesting to see.

It did okay last year. With the Under-19s here, so he's had a bit of experience playing in the UK, but he didn't do what he's done in the IPL. Yeah, so maybe that's a little bit of an indication with a little bit of lateral movement, a bit of, you know, a bit of bounce off a length that he might just sky one or two. But, um, from what I've seen, I think he'll work it out pretty quick.

What about, what about an old-fashioned technique against him? Good hard sledging.

You want to go abusive, dude? Well, What you going to say to it? How can you abuse— will he be 16 by the time he—

past your bedtime.

He was born— listen, he was, he was born on the 27th of March 2011, so he's 15. You'll come as a 15-year-old.

You're going to— you're— Simon, you're going to abuse a 15-year-old?

I, I, I— well, he— when he's past— when he's 16, I don't know.

You leave it another year.

Don't, don't go on X after this, because we remember Cole Jamieson had a golden celebration.

No, I'm not saying you do it.

You know, Simon wants to abuse the kids.

I've watched Simon watch football, so I'm not saying you should.

I'm just saying, is that a tactic that could be used to disrupt him? That's what I'm saying.

He's in his own world, isn't he? He's that guy that's in his bubble. And yeah, I don't, I don't think it'll disrupt him.

Apparently bowls a bit of spin, you know, as well. So he's one of those that can offer a few overs potentially in the future. Probably get 500 Test wickets as well. Why not?

Well, thanks to Michael Vaughan, Stephen Finn, and Katie Martin. That's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode, and we're back on air at 10:30 AM on Sunday morning for the 4th day of the Test at Lord's.

So much sport today, and all the goals as they go in up and down the league. This is Five Live Sports. It's all eyes to the lights and foot to the floor. It's not to stop her. Everyone standing around the 18th green. Overhead kick. 36. Sensation! He serves to the center and that'll do it! Oh, the right hand and the former champion is down! It's extraordinary stuff, they've put on a show for us tonight.

He gets on his knees and kisses the turf.

5 Live Sports, the home of the world's greatest sporting events. That is the full-time whistle!

Listen on BBC Sounds.