Root & Rew rue missed chances

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Welcome to our review of the third day of the second test between England and New Zealand here at the Oval. New look England, Flattened by New Zealand today. New Zealand making the most of the advantage they built up on the second day. They are 352 ahead with 7 wickets in hand, in a great position to level this series. England adding 69 to their overnight score, losing their last, uh, 4 wickets to be bowled out for 291. 5 for Matt Henry and a 50 for Matt Fisher. New Zealand losing a couple of early wickets and then a 151-run stand between Nicholls and Ravindra, just nailed down New Zealand's advantage. Nicholls making his 11th Test hundred. He played splendidly, and New Zealand are on their way. Michael Vaughan is here, Jonathan Agnew is here, Alistair Cook is here. Uh, Michael, that was a tough day for England.

Yeah, really tough day. I mean, they had a good partnership with, uh, obviously Matthew Fisher got a nice 50, and Sonny Baker showed a huge amount of spirit with the bat in hand. They had a chance when they got New Zealand a couple down quite early. Joffre bowled a good spell with the new ball. Josh Tong suddenly gets the ball in hand, and there was a moment where I think they were 49 for 2, and suddenly a chance came for James Root, low down to his left, and he didn't take it off Josh Tong. There was another one off Joffre Archer, but bouncing down the leg side. Not easy chances, but chances that he would think he could have taken. And on a pitch that's pretty good, and in a situation where you've got obviously the 100 deficit, you have to take all your chances. Emilio Gayet short leg to Jacob Bethell is one that ballooned in the air. He didn't quite get his hands right. And everything had to go England's way once they'd— you know, on a pitch that's pretty flat, I think 291 is under par. And that's where England today will think, go back to yesterday with the bat in hand. And obviously this morning, they didn't really get the score that they should have got in the first innings on a pretty good batting pitch.

So they're really paying for that batting on the second day.

Well, you need 3 figures. Alex mentioned last night about the top 6. You need one of your top 6 or 7 to go and get you 3 figures in the first innings. If that doesn't happen, you generally fall under par. In New Zealand's first innings, Glenn Phillips got the 3 figures, and they got to that par just beyond. So it is at this level all about getting 3 figures, getting the big number. Henry Nicholls now sits on 119 going into day 4. Uh, Test cricket on pitches like this, um, it's hundreds that win your Test matches, not 50s and 30s and 40s.

Alistair, as captain, do you hate days like this? You know, you think of Joe Root back as captain for England.

They're tough days, and, and you know, you get punished for Test cricket over a long period of time. Some, like the bowlers, have been punished here for the batters not bowling well, not batting well on a flat wicket. I, I think this is a I think 390 on the first innings was below par, so 290 is definitely below par. And you can kind of tell if Matt Fisher actually played really well, really sensibly, took the right option. But you deep down know if you're number 11 and you're number 9 are playing with that ease against that new ball, it's a flat wicket. And then if you don't take your chances, you get punished. And this England side, that's what they've done. And I— it's, it's frustrating because they, they took their chance at Lord's New Zealand didn't take the chance. They haven't done it here. Sets the series up well. I can't see England— I don't think New Zealand are going to allow England to get, you know, they'll bat for hours, won't they, tomorrow? And why wouldn't you set them 550-odd and still have 130-odd overs to bowl them out?

Yeah, I mean, it's New Zealand's game, isn't it? I mean, it feels like it. It's whether there's any long memories from 4 years ago, um, the early heady days of Baz Ball when England just thrashed them around and won those 3 Test matches. But they've got so much time. To build up a completely unassailable total, declare, and then England are going to have to, well, they're going to have to bat extremely well, aren't they? I mean, it's still for me, yeah, I mean, the batsmen amongst us will go back to the score, and of course they're right, you know, 291 wasn't enough, but I still go back to that first hour of yesterday as well when England lost control of this match. Got a very inexperienced bowling attack, you know, and it's moments like this, I think we talked about it earlier, Alistair, didn't we, you know, It's where Jimmy Anderson and Stuart Broad are so brilliant, you know, in conditions which you've just got to try and be tight. You've got to have a— get control of a game. And England with this attack, they, they haven't had control of the game. They've resorted to the short ball so often, haven't they? But apart from Joffre Archer, they haven't— they haven't got the experience really to carry that off effectively.

But they weren't brilliant to start off in their career. How many times you say Jimmy Anderson? Oh, when it swings he's brilliant. And he was. And he learned how to deal with this situation.

You're not going to—

I don't care who bowled on that wicket today, the best bowlers in the world, they're not tearing through the, the, the opposition.

No.

It's not—

you're not picking 5 for 20, but you're getting through a day here, 2 for 50 if you can, that kind of figures. That's what you, that's what you need. And I think England, they— their mantra of always trying to attack wickets, there are times in Test cricket where you can attack from one end and defend from the other. And actually, for example, just when Bethel was bowling, I was looking there, that looked like the most dangerous wave to the bowler left-hand. There's a couple jumped out, not mine, Phil, but a couple jumped out right. You go, right, Bethel's the one who's looking most likely to take a wicket. At the other end, we're just going to block it up.

Well, I've got a question for both of you two as being captains. Do you think England go to this short-form stuff because actually they're not good enough to control it otherwise? This is kind of seen as an easy way of, of, of slowing down a scoring rate because you can just run up, bowl bouncers, you've got 7 people in the leg side. So it's an easy way of actually doing a more controlling job in which I think more likely to get people out. You bowl maidens by bowling skillfully. What do you think?

Yeah, yeah, maybe. Um, I'd like to go back over the course of a few Test matches now to study the bouncer theory because again I need to know the numbers, but I don't think it's working. I don't— I think they've had success in the past, but I'm looking at recent times, I think Number one, you do it because you're hoping a batter takes it on and he balloons one in the air. Number two, you're hoping that the scoreboard's not going to tick, so you get that control back. And neither's been working for England. So they haven't been getting wickets with it, and the scoreboard has continued to tick. So that's a concern for the captain. Just little things like just, you know, throwing it out wide of off stump with a packed offside field. I saw, you know, on a pitch like this, I saw a straight theory with 3 catchers on the onside and one square leg boundary. I like that, but I didn't see them throw it out wide of off stump and say, okay, we're going to take it away. It's all right, bowling bouncers to try and take it away from the eyeline and try and get a batter kind of not controlling the push. What about throwing it out wide and just saying, go on then, just throw it out wide, get the drive, pat the offside, put one at covered point, put one at kind of wide third. So there's one or two tactics that you could offer, but you know, you're looking at a pitch that, you know, as Cookie said, you know, you could put the greats on that pitch and, you know, it's a good batting pitch.

Yes.

And fundamentally, when you, you know, it's a lesson to— and we've got to be fair, it's a very inexperienced batting lineup, it's a very inexperienced team this week, you know. But they'll learn in the dressing room that when you get on pitches like this, you've got to get 450. Someone in the first innings has to get you a 140, 160, and then you bat around that player and you get the big number and it takes the game deeper and you put the opposition under pressure because you've got a big number. By getting out for 291, and that keeper stood up theory, which got Matt Henry a fifer, that is where the game has changed. Matt Henry produced a spell yesterday, he's done it this morning where he got 3 free balls beautifully, but that keeper standing up theory has caused the damage and is the reason why England have been bowled out for 291.

Do you know the only time I can remember in recent times where the short ball has worked getting wickets and keeping it tight?

Lords, Australia.

Correct, by Australia against England at Lords.

2023, you're right, yeah, the second Test match.

3, wasn't it? 3 wickets, I think.

That we all know Test cricket can be brutal and the focus is so intense. But James Root today, he's come into the team, you know, he's lauded as a young player, very talented, and yet focus on him today, he's dropped a couple of catches as wicketkeeper, one to the left, one to the right.

Yeah, this level is all about that, the scrutiny, you know. You have a day like that in county cricket, Of course, with the feed now and YouTube, there's a lot more people watching and there's a lot more people commenting on the game and having their say. But, you know, James will be in that dressing room knowing that the talk will be about a couple of dropped chances, been a bit kind of untidy behind the sticks today. He's a tough cricketer, you know, he'll know that he's not had a great day behind the stumps. And that's what Test match cricket is all about, that's what it brings, the scrutiny of us. Talking about a couple of catches that he could have, and he'll be the first to say he should have taken. But he's got a bit of steel about him. I'm sure he'll come back tomorrow and he'll try and understand what this whole surrounding means. And that's the complete difference from county cricket to the highest level, is the scrutiny that you have to take on. You have to take it, and you have to come back tomorrow with a strong mentality of realizing that when the next catch comes, be ready to take it.

Yeah, I have no doubt about his mentality from what I've heard. What I think today will realize for him is actually how good you have to be at keeping to keep international standards, because the effect of his two drops have again hurt England. So is that fine? Absolutely. He's nowhere near the finished product. He just now will have to go away and go, oh God, that's the level I've got to get at. And there's nothing wrong with that. Like Matt Prior, one of England's best keepers, His first stint as keeper of England, he realised he wasn't good enough. He went away and worked, and he came back a very, very good keeper.

Okay, let's get some reaction now. Matt Fisher scored his maiden Test half century today, and he's been speaking to Daniel Norcross.

Tell us what it was like out there.

Yeah, it was obviously quick bowling, so a lot of bouncers, but yeah, just trying to work with Sonny really and figure out a way to elongate our innings and try and put a partnership together to help us get closer to them really. So yeah, just working out when to play, when to duck, when to turn the screw and try and hit an agricultural boundary or two. So yeah, that's how I went about it really.

I mean, you played a lot of cricket here at the Oval, you've had some success with the bat for Surrey as well, so you knew what conditions to expect. Were they pretty much exactly like a typical Oval pitch?

Not really. It's a bit— it's a different colour to any wicket I've played on here. It's usually a bit greener. It's a little whiter than normal, so yeah, there's not that massive carry that you sometimes get with the County Championship games. So I think Lee's over-prepared it. I told him to get the covers on 2 days before, but yeah, no, obviously 5-day test, so you want it to go to 5 days. So it'll be another couple of good days and hopefully we can get a couple of early poles tomorrow.

A word for Sonny Baker playing his first game. Batting, he would admit, is not his strong suit, but he really stuck in there with you, didn't he, in that partnership?

Yeah, no, a couple of days out we were down in the Indale School both batting together, feeding each other on the machine. So I think that kind of helped us know each other's game and trust each other to do what role we needed to do. But he's unbelievable, like, his character is infectious. His attitude's amazing, just charges in. He's a player that you want in your team. So yeah, England are lucky to have someone like that to watch in the next 10, 15 years.

It was a really important partnership because, you know, it's the third highest partnership for England against New Zealand for the 10th wicket, incidentally. But at the time, you'd lost a couple of early wickets. It could have been looking down at a, what, deficit of 150, getting it back to 100. Psychologically significant, yes?

Yeah, 100%, and any bowler knows the longer you're out there batting, less time with your bowling boots on. So I think we all use that as motivation, really. So yeah, it was just about getting closer, put them under pressure. Yes, we've missed a few key moments in this game which we'd look back on and hopefully we could change next time, but credit to New Zealand, they've put us under the pump when when we have let them have them key moments and we just got to keep running in, charging in, grafting and hopefully we can get a few poles early in the morning.

What's your role here in this 4-man seam attack?

Well, to swing it early doors, I think we complement each other pretty well. The batch of balls, to be honest, weren't great when we looked at them, very red. Usually the darker ones swing a lot more. And now it's got drier, more abrasive, it's hard to really shine at one side. So the swing's kind of gone out of it. So I think my role now is just bash the pitch as much as I can, get the keeper up. We saw it in the Ashes down under with like Nisa and stuff, and a lot of batters these days use the crease to try and eliminate LBWs or whatever. And we've played with the leg flip. So it's all tactical to try and keep them in the crease and try and get them LB and bowls, because we think that's the main mode of dismissal now. So yeah, just trying to be patient and not go for many runs. Like, we tried the aggressive option, then we tried being boring. Um, just always— Baz wants us to make them think. So, um, yeah, you're always trying to figure out a mode of dismissal and work out how to get them out.

The TMS Podcast. From BBC Radio 5 Live.

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Well, that's Matt Henry speaking to Daniel Norcross. Now, Ben Stokes has been in action today, but not here at the Oval, of course. He's been playing at Chester-le-Street for Durham against Northants. He had a catch dropped in his first over, and the Northants batters have frustrated the Durham bowlers today. But some interesting comments from the Durham hierarchy today as well. Chief Executive Tim Bostock has been speaking about Stokes returning to Chester-le-Street.

Difficult situation. You know, we probably know as much as everybody else in terms of what you've read in the papers, but it sounds like common sense is prevailing. Obviously, we're happy to have Ben here playing for us this week in a really crucial game, but not under these circumstances. He really should be playing for England, but hopefully he'll be back captaining England next week at Trent Bridge.

And now that he's made his return, what's he been like around the camp, and has there been a need to kind of rally around him at all?

Well, not really. All his mates are here. We've got a very sensible group. I mean, it's just normal Ben. He's here all the time anyway. We don't say any different. And I was a little bit bemused about some of the comments about his state of mind. And maybe in the first 24 hours when all this sort of stuff exploded, I'm sure he was thinking, you know, what's happened here? But he's been absolutely fine. I think as Ryan said the other day, he's very positive. He's always very positive. So we're looking forward to him getting out the park and doing well for us this weekend.

Well, that's Durham Chief Executive Tim Bostock referring really to those comments from Brendan McCullum saying he was worried about Ben Stokes' state of mind, but as far as Durham are concerned, no problem at all, Jonathan. What do you make of that?

It's just a crazy situation, isn't it? I mean, it really is. We've suddenly got Ian Botham coming in as well, making those comments. I mean, it's I, I, you wonder how it's been able to get quite to this stage, and I think probably the simple answer to that is it's because it's just been allowed to be so protracted, and there hasn't— it's just been— it's a sort of a communication vacuum, and people are saying, oh, people keep talking about Ben Stokes, oh, give it a rest. Well, he's the England captain who's now out there playing for Durham. The chief executive of Durham is saying he should be playing for England. He's absolutely fine, he's his normal self. We've got the England coach saying, well, a bit worried about his mental health. You know, where's all this going? You know, it just— it needs, I'm afraid, the ECB to get a grip, and they should have done this days ago and just put a stop to all of this conjecture. Here we are, we've got the Trent Bridge Test match starting in less than a week. It could well be 1-1 and a vital Test match in the series. Do you It just needs some clarity. It needs some clarity on what is happening, and there's still obviously some talk about this curfew and whether, you know, the curfew was introduced on a tour. If we really want to get down to some nitty-gritty here. Now, a tour is obvious. You are there away every night, and there's a curfew. Now, part of the argument, it could easily be here. Well, they can't be on a curfew all summer. When does the curfew end? And the argument that Stokes might be using, and we don't know this for a fact, and it's kind of common sense, does the curfew end when the match ends and you go home? You know, if Jamie Smith's baby been born at 3 in the morning, would he been breaking a curfew to be there at the bedside? You know, if you really want to get down to the nitty-gritty of this, how was this curfew explained to the players at the start of this series? And that, I think, is clearly important in all this, because otherwise you're going to start getting legal, you're going to get something litigious, and when you, you know, employment law and all of that, I mean, do you really want to go down to that? But that's the stage it's been allowed to drift to, and that's the problem.

Is it your sense finally that Ben Stokes will be captaining England in the next Test match?

Yes, and it's my feel that what the only real option the ECB has now is just to put out the team for Trent Bridge at the end of this match, whenever that may be, here's the team, here's the squad for England at Trent Bridge, Ben Stokes captain, boom boom boom, and you know, there's the list. I mean, I do think that Ben's had to explain something about what happened and his understanding of the curfew and why he went out that night. If he's saying, well, my thought was the curfew ends when the match ends, unless there's something in black and white from Rob Key presumably, pre-that match saying there's a curfew in place, everybody, just to remind you, and this is what it means. Well, if there isn't that sort of clarity, then I don't think the board's got a leg to stand on.

Okay, thanks, Agus. Look out on the BBC Sport website and that for much more on the Stokes story and the events here at the Oval. You'll also find coverage from the ongoing Women's T20 World Cup, which sees one of its marquee fixtures on Saturday night when England play Scotland at Headingly from 6:30 30. Henry Moran is in Leeds ahead of a rare meeting of the two neighbours.

Remarkably, the only time in their history that England and Scotland's women have met on British shores was way back in 2001, one of just two fixtures that have been played between the sides. That day at Reading saw England pile on 262 for 7 from 50 overs before Scotland were bowled out for 24 in 21.3 overs. On Saturday night here at Headingly, it'll be a very different scene. A raucous crowd will be watching a contest that feels long overdue, not least because of Scotland's rise over the course of the last 25 years. They come into the game having won one and lost one from their opening matches of this World Cup. Thursday's agonizing defeat to the West Indies by 7 runs was a steep learning curve, according to fast bowler Rachel Slater.

It's obviously gutting in the moment, and I think we definitely feel that in the group, but we've done a lot right in that game. We've probably won 80% of it, so yeah, it's just the nature of playing against good teams on good pitches. You can't really give up those good positions when you get into them, and I think we've done that 2 or 3 times where we've actually been in a position to kill the game and just kind of let it go, but We're still very young. Like, it's only our second World Cup, only our, what, sixth World Cup game. So we'll learn from it and we'll be better for it. But yeah, it's disappointing. But like I said, the disappointment is a good thing because it shows that we know we should be winning those games.

England-Scotland, there's always something a little bit extra in that. How's the squad feeling?

Yeah, I think excited, buzzing. Don't really get bigger than that. To do it at a World Cup as well, I think it's exciting. It's going to be one of those days that when you kind of retire and whatever, you can look back on regardless of the result and you're really proud to be a part of it and excited to be a part of it. So I think for all of us, kind of being able to stand out there, sing, is going to be really special. So yeah, we're excited.

What about the prospects of beating England? I mean, you've proven you can give every side a good game.

Yeah, I think so. I think we're very much taking it one game at a time and just doing the basics right. I think we know how good we are and know how good we can be, and we've showed glimpses of that in the past couple of games. So yeah, I think we're excited and we want to show the world what we can do.

Whether Scotland will have enough to beat England remains to be seen, especially given the quality of the England bowling attack. 3 of the ICC's top 4 T20 bowlers are part of the squad, But left-arm spinner Sophie Ecclestone isn't underestimating the threat coming from north of the border.

I think they're gonna be a great team. I feel like obviously they've got Kirsty Gordon back with them now. It's obviously a great threat for them, so obviously it's really exciting to play against them. I think it's really cool that we get to play Scotland and Ireland and yeah, we have a very good contest against them. So yes, we're gonna have Scotland tomorrow, it'll be a big game and hopefully we finish tomorrow 3 from 3.

Does it feel a bit different when it's Scotland? That's a local rivalry, you know so many of the players.

Yeah, defo. You don't wanna lose it Scotland or Ireland, so I feel like playing Scotland tomorrow, we'll definitely all be up for it and yeah, wanting to get one over on them.

Really, is there that little extra sense?

Yeah, I reckon so. I reckon for me personally there definitely is because Scotland and Ireland, yeah, you don't want to lose to them two specifically.

What you've seen elsewhere in the tournament, there's been some brilliant matches and teams feel quite close together. Is this an ICC event where actually the upsets are getting closer and closer?

Yeah, I feel like everyone can beat anyone. It's been so cool to watch how many games have come on how many runs are being scored, which would be very cool. So I feel like anyone can beat anyone and it's kind of, yeah, the best will come out on top obviously, but there's gonna be some nice competitions along the way.

With this World Cup being on home soil, there's a lot of expectation obviously in the history of England having success on home soil. Do you feel well equipped given the big crowds you've played in front of at The Hundred, at the Women's Premier League, that actually that expectation is something you can thrive on?

Yeah, I think it's well exciting. I feel like to see home crowds coming in and the noise that's happening at our games is amazing. So to have home crowds that when I first remember debut were playing at like Leicester and small grounds where we were just selling them out, but now we play at the Oval and Lords and that's so cool.

And it could be lively tomorrow night at Headingley.

It's always lively up north, innit? The northerners get out and yeah, it should be so lively, hopefully on a Saturday night as well.

Lively, certainly. England though will be without captain Nat Sciver-Brunt for at least the next couple of games as she nurses a calf injury. She's still with the squad and her charges will be all but in the semi-finals with a win on Saturday evening. Test match special coverage will begin on Five Sports Extra 2 and BBC Sounds from 6:15, with highlights on the BBC Sport website and app.

Thanks, Henry. So two England teams in action on Saturday and we'll have coverage of both from 10 o'clock.

5 mics for—

My favorite World Cup moment? It's the first World Cup I properly remember watching, Argentina '78. The ticker tape, Mario Kempes, Harry Hahn scoring goals from miles out. And always one of my favorite World Cup moments, Archie Gemmell's great goal for Scotland against the Dutch. What makes the World Cup such a special tournament is the atmosphere, the color. It is a meeting of the nations and of people who love football. The FIFA World Cup 2026.

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