Root wants England to be “good role models”

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. Hello, I'm Henry Moran. Welcome to the Test Match Special Podcast on the eve of Joe Root's second first match leading England as Test captain. We'll hear from the man himself as well as England number 3 Jordan Cox. But first, I'm alongside the BBC's cricket correspondent Stefan Schemmelt. And TMS commentator Atif Nawaz at Hellingby. How are you both? Overcast conditions, it suddenly feels like a proper English summer, boys.

I'm very excited, actually, and that's something that Joe Root has said a lot of. It's an interesting situation that England find themselves in, the start of a new era, sort of, with Joe Root as captain, but also sort of not, because Marcus Trescothick is the interim head coach while we wait for Stephen Fleming to come in. A lot's happened in English cricket, hasn't it, this summer? If you go back to June, when Ben Stokes was captain and Brendan McCullum was the head coach and everything was trying to be rebuilt, wasn't it, after the Ashes? Well, that unravelled pretty quickly amid that chaos of the New Zealand series. And it just feels like a little bit of calm maybe has descended. Maybe can we say, Henry, for a lot of the summer, the temperature has been high. Both around English cricket and all across the country. Well, we've come to Headingley, and it's a little bit cooler in every sense.

Artif, has there been that sense watching on from from a Pakistan point of view? They've been just waiting in the wings, watching England sort of chaotically thrash about in the way that they have in the last few weeks.

I think they've had to sort of chaotically thrash about themselves recently. I mean, they had the Test series against the West Indies, two matches there which they managed to to split with them, and. Very significantly break a run of eight consecutive away losses under their new captain, Captain Babar Azam. And they've come to England, had an eventful warm-up match, which they ended up winning quite comprehensively at Beckenham against the PCC Select Eleven. But they just just before we started recording, the the news sort of broke that Babar Azam's not going to be playing. And a lot of this team has been built around him. A lot of the the sort of build-up to the series has been around his sort of his third coming as Pakistan. Test captain, and, um, it turns out he's not going to be captaining at all.

Yeah, we'll get on to that shortly, but, uh, we should probably hear from Joe Root, the England captain, the man of the hour, if you like. Uh, Joe spoke to Stefan at Headingley on Tuesday.

Joe, thanks for your time. Um, millions of people want to be England captain. You're now doing it twice. Just can I ask—

Bit greedy, isn't it?

Yeah, well, But how do you actually become England captain? And I don't mean like by being a very good cricketer or a good leader, but do you get asked or do you maybe have to throw your hat into the ring? What happens? What are the mechanics of becoming the captain?

I don't think there's any one way of it necessarily. I'm sure everyone's experience is different, but I can only speak for myself. I was asked and, you know, having spoken with Steven and his vision and how he sees building the team, we were very aligned and I was very excited to do it again.

And when you get asked, it must be incredibly difficult to say no?

I mean, I've never been in a position where that was the case. So the 2 times that I have been asked, I've felt like I can make a big difference in that space and been very excited about that opportunity and felt like it's been the right thing. Yeah, I'm sure if there was a period, you know, after I did it the first time where they asked me, I would have said no. So it's, you know, the only 2 times that I've been asked, I've been very much in the right space for it.

And that's why what I'm getting at here is that you were captain once, and that probably didn't end the way that you wanted it to. And then there was a time when if you got asked again, you would have said no. And then time happens, then you think about those things, and then you might think, well, what would happen if I got that opportunity again? And I've heard people, former England captains, say, you know, giving up the captaincy is the hardest thing because that is something you've always wanted to do, and then you give it up. So to get the opportunity to do it again must be lovely.

It is. I mean, it's not— I don't think it's something that— I think when you're a kid growing up, you want to be— you want to do it because you don't really necessarily know what it takes. And I'll be honest, the first time you do it, I don't think you'd do it then either. But having experienced it, understand it, and lived it, you know, I knew everything and probably more, you know, looking at the back end of my first tenure of what was— what it was going to take or what it could potentially take. So, but again, feel very privileged that I've got that experience to call back on. Especially in the modern landscape, you don't get a grounding of necessarily captaining your county or having a huge amount of experience before and exposure to it before you do it at international level. So the fact that I have got that in the bank, I think it's a huge advantage in many ways and feel very readied for it more than ever before.

I heard you speak last week and you said one of the challenges of doing the job Again, with the opinions that people might have of your captaincy stint the first time around. And actually, I heard you speak quite a lot when Ben was captain, and you were quite self-deprecating about yourself as a captain. We know that that reign ended with 1 win in 17 matches, but before then, I think the first 47, you had a win rate of 55%, which would put you right up there with all the other successful England captains. So you must have done something right.

Yeah, and you know, and I think just the world's a very different place now to when we finished. You know, you look at— I think we played probably 12 more Test matches than anyone else throughout that COVID time, you know, 3 tours away from home. And even when we were at home, we were isolating and not even seeing our own families and friends whilst the rest of the world went back to normality. So it was very difficult, not necessarily just for me as a leader, but for the whole squad, and to try and keep everyone readied and in the right space for performance to be the, the first thing at the front of their mind was, was very difficult. And there were times on those tours where it was about just trying to get everyone home safely and in a good headspace, you know, rather than actually looking at the cricket and that being the real priority and the reason that we were there, which should never really be the case. And You know, it was a unique set of circumstances where no one really knew what to do. There wasn't answers and experience to fall back on, and we were just sort of trying to find the right— try and do the right thing, try and find the right way to navigate through it. But the world's very different now. It's a very different team. It's a very exciting one with huge potential, and, you know, that really excites me. And, you know, as I said, 8 more years of experience experienced since the first time around. So, um, yeah, very excited by it all.

Was it only COVID as to why captaincy ended, mate, and why you didn't want it to?

I think that's probably the, the crux of it, and I'm sure other things bled into it as well. Um, but clearly it got to a point where, um, we did need a fresh voice and a new, um, a new way of looking at the game, and we, we certainly got that. And I think we're better for it now, and You know, I feel like a different player and a different person to what I was at the end of things there. So as I say, ready to take this team forward again.

How will you do it differently 4 years on?

In a number of different ways. But again, like you said, there was— I felt like there's a lot of good stuff in there as well. But when you're looking at different teams and different personnel, of course you're going to approach things differently. And, you know, hopefully that comes across in the way we play in the, you know, in the immediate future. And, you know, we can grow that and develop that and evolve that over the next little while as well.

Does a Test cricket team have to have a brand, a style of play?

No, I don't, I don't think so. I think that, of course, there's things that you want to replicate over and over again, and But I don't think Test cricket is one pace, you know. You have to be able to move with the rhythm of the game and to understand the different situations that you find yourselves in, the different conditions. Even at the same pitch, at the same venue, can be very different throughout 5 days. And being skillful enough, smart enough to recognize those moments and understand what's required. But when you've made that decision, fully having the belief and the backing that, you know, you can execute and deliver on that.

Are you aware that over the last little while when results haven't been great and certain things have happened off the field, that maybe the standing of this team with supporters in the eyes of the public isn't what it was a couple of years ago? Have you got work to do to build a few bridges?

I think you always want to represent your country in the best possible light, and we might have fallen short of that on a few occasions in the recent past, but the only thing that we can do to rectify that is be really good role models and good human beings and put in some really strong performances out on the field, and that does take time, and that first opportunity to do that is this week. So I think it's trying to take that and understand what that looks like and really throwing ourselves into each situation and scenario we find ourselves over the next 5 days.

Is one of the challenges of taking over from a retired Ben Stokes not captaining a team with Ben Stokes in it?

No, I think one of the big challenges is just not trying to be Ben Stokes, and he's a very unique player with unbelievable qualities that I don't think are easy to replicate, so I don't think there's any point trying to. I think understanding that things have changed, we are— it's going to have a slightly different look to it, but that's okay. There's still a lot of good stuff that's happened over the last 4 years that I think will serve us really well, and it's about not ripping it up, just fine-tuning and evolving that and taking that to the next level. So yeah, I mean, I think he did a phenomenal job throughout his tenure and, you know, will go down as a brilliant Test player, brilliant Test captain, and we've got to find a way of evolving the team without him in it.

One of the things I've heard you talk about in terms of batting and the runs you've scored and the milestones that you've achieved is they're never really your runs, they're the team's runs. And if I said to you, Oz, your motivation for taking this captaincy to become an Ashes-winning captain or a World Test Championship-winning captain, you would say no, it's about the team and those sorts of things. So is that what it is, to take this group of players and shape them and leave them in a better place than what you found them, rather than anything you can achieve personally?

Yeah, and try and bring the best out of each other throughout that as well. And, you know, I don't— you look at our bowling attack, for example, I don't think they even realize how good they are and how skillful they are and, you know, what they could potentially produce over the next little while. And the depth that is there in that department as well. So I think it's about trying to move this team forward. And clearly, if we're getting the best out of those players with the amount of skill that they have, we're going to produce results and we're going to play some really good, strong cricket. And, you know, that kind of stuff will look after itself down the line, but it's about putting something in place that allows them to do that. And You know, that really brings the best out of them on as many occasions as possible and makes us as versatile as we can be in whatever situation and conditions that we find ourselves in.

And if you can do that, and if you can help shape those players and allow them to be the best that they can be and shape them, all those things that you just said, would that mean more to you than any of your runs and milestones and all those things?

I think so, but you know, that's not just my responsibility. I think that's a collective thing as well, and that's not me, you know, passing on that to anyone else. I think there's an opportunity for us to grow some really strong leaders within this inexperienced team in terms of games anyway. You know, there's guys that have been exposed to some really high-level cricket already, and it's a team that could, for the crux of it, can be together for a long period of time, which is really exciting. You know, I might not be for that whole journey, but it could be the start of something that could be really successful for, for not just a blip. I think that's kind of been the trend when England have got to be a real force in Test cricket. It's been for a short period of time. Can we build something? And that's the dream, right, is to, to do something that is long-lasting, that can be carried forward and continue to be evolved down the line to make us a really strong team.

And I know before when you've spoken about Milestones and achievements and all those things, you say, look, I'll look back on those at the end of my career, that's not for now. And you've spoken about how exciting it is to become captain again. When you look back at the end of your career, I guess there's an opportunity not to go, and I was captain again, it was, and I was captain again, and we did this, this, this, and this. That must be incredibly exciting.

Absolutely. And that's, I guess, that's the draw to it all, really. So yeah, I'm very much in a place where I am— it's hard to think of a different word other than excited. You know, I am very much looking forward to it, and you know, we just want to get going now, to be honest.

Good luck.

Cheers, thank you.

So Stefan, he sounds relaxed to me. He sounds like a man that's focused and pretty at ease with everything.

I'm absolutely fascinated, you know, by Joe Root's return. As Test captain. And for a lot of people, me included, when we first heard that Root would be interested in taking the job and had accepted it on a permanent basis, not just a temporary one while England get Fleming in place and sort of see what's what. No, no, Joe Root is the Test captain for the foreseeable future. And a lot of people just wonder, you know, why? Why did Joe Root want to come back? And take this job because we knew what an effect it had on him before. We've just heard it talking about that COVID era, one win in 17. He'd previously said he'd been left with an unhealthy relationship with the captaincy. But as he said then, time changes lots of things. And it was Alistair Cook who once said that if you imagine how difficult it must be to give up the England Test captaincy or any captaincy actually, because we'll talk about Baba with Atif and what's going on with Pakistan. there. But if that is the job that you have dreamed of doing and you have wanted to do it successfully, and maybe it hasn't worked out quite the way that you wanted it to, and there comes a point where you have to hand that job back and you think, I could have done more there, maybe I've got some unfinished business. Well, what a lovely opportunity it must have to be able to have another go. And here we go with Joe Root. And we all thought, you know, that Ben Stokes was going to finish his story at the Oval next year, lifting the Ashes, um, beating Australia. That was the way he was gonna, um, ride off into the sunset, if you will. Well, Stokes didn't get the chance to finish his story. Maybe Root will with his.

Indeed, it's an intriguing one, and particularly intriguing, I felt, Atif, when, when the sort of notion of a brand or style of play was discussed with Joe there, and, and he said that there is no brand or style. They need to go back to, to Test match cricket. And there is that sense that it's just everyone can now just breathe a little bit, perhaps.

Yeah, they can breathe a little bit. It could just be that Flem Ball doesn't have the same ring to it that Baz Ball did.

It's possible.

It's horrible, doesn't it?

It does.

It's Flem Ball.

It sounds like something that— it's not something that would be out of place in September, I suppose. But it's, um, yeah, look, he's got to try and instill a bit of stability in this team. It does feel like, especially with this series, that it's a bit of a stopgap transition type series. It could be a very helpful transition for England as well as they sort of just bridge over to that, uh, Stephen Fleming era. But Marcus Rasgothic and Joe Root have been— they seem laser-focused on the task at hand, which is even more impressive considering, you know, we've just had this extended competition, The Hundred. It's been marketed endlessly. There's so many responsibilities on the players as well, not just sort of after the match and meeting the fans and spending all that extra time that they do, uh, during that competition, but also sort of media commitments and things like that. Um, so the turnaround has been tight, and so the, the focus at least with the words, is quite admirable.

In terms of the brand of play that England might adopt, and we know that so many supporters have been frustrated at times with England under Stokes and McCullum, that some of their most damaging defeats were self-inflicted, and the way that they played, sometimes they got caught up with, let's call it self-indulgent for want of a better term. Remember when Stokes first took over the captaincy and he sort of tried to lay that marker about how he wanted England to play? And there was, you know, walking down the pitch, throwing his wicket away quite often. Well, there's gonna be none of that with Joe Root, is there? And the criticism, I think, of Stokes and McCullum, and, you know, Ben Stokes, we are talking about one of the most legendary figures in the English game. What a place for England to come to try and move on from Stokes, by the way, Headingley, the scene of his greatest miracle.

Yeah.

And Stokes achieved so much, but what you would say is he didn't necessarily leave this England Test team in a better place than what he found it. You cannot say that England are a better team now than they were 4 years ago when Stokes took up the captaincy. And the reason for that is the team had to regenerate, and a lot of younger players weren't necessarily shown the way of how to play Test cricket. If you think of the likes of Jamie Smith and Gus Atkinson and Josh Tonge and Shoaib Bashir, and loads of other examples of players who've come in and have maybe got a little bit swept up with that Bazball way and were better cricketers when they first came into the England team than what they are now. Well, what they're going to get with Joe Root is an example of how to play Test cricket. And that's what he's just been saying. There doesn't have to be a brand. We will adapt. We will read the situ— we will read the situation. We will assess conditions and we will try to respond, um, as best we can. And that, it might not sound particularly exciting. It might sound very different to what England have experienced over the past 4 years. But maybe that's what they need in this moment.

Yeah, but it'll be music to the ears for many though, won't it? Because let's be perfectly honest, uh, yeah, people I think have got a little bit sick of it, Arif, just watching on. And there were the brilliant moments, particularly actually in Pakistan, in series over there, but there is just that little bit of a sense that this needs to be a series that lays down a marker from an England point of view where they show that they can adapt and be different.

It's a challenge though, isn't it? This is the thing. I mean, if you take a player like Ben Duckett, for example, does he all of a sudden start leaving balls outside the off stump? And if he starts doing it, does it almost feel a little bit performative? I mean, he's sort of built his brand on playing very aggressive, uh, and sort of at times ambitious cricket at the top of the order. And, you know, how do you sort of temper that to fit in with what we're looking— we're sort of overall calling a sort of calming of English cricket. Well, that's what we're sort of expecting on— in Joe Root's premiership. And we will, we'll wait and see how these players transition. Harry Brook, you know, the temperaments that they've sort of developed over the, over the sort of Stokes-McCullum era, the Bazball era, like, how do you temper that? I mean, this series provides an excellent opportunity to do that, to bridge your way, um, to sort of the, the Stephen Fleming era proper. Uh, I'll just be curious to see how they approach things. I mean, they, they may well still score at sort of 5 or 6 runs an over, Uh, at the start of the innings and, you know, people will throw their hands up, but it, it might just be, you know, the way, the way that they approach the game that's, uh, that's made them successful. It might just be a mind— mindset shift.

It's been, um, it's been off-field stuff as well, hasn't it, Henry, that's followed this England team around for a little while? We talk about results, the, the 2, 2 wins in 10 matches, but obviously that's come against a backdrop of a lot of a few off-field misdemeanors as well. And one of Joe Root's first act as captain has been to, to axe the midnight curfew. And, and he said it in the interview there that maybe, um, this England team have got a few, uh, bridges to build with supporters and the public. He's called on, on his team to be good role models and good human beings. Well, they couldn't get a better example than their captain, could they?

Indeed. And not trying to replicate Ben Stokes is the message. So, uh, if they're not trying to replicate Ben Stokes in terms of captaincy, they sure could do so in terms of Of the all-rounder. Where are we with that at the moment?

Yeah, and that's the most difficult part, isn't it? That's what I put to Joe Root. It is the hardest part of taking over from a retired Ben Stokes, the fact that you haven't got Ben Stokes in your team. And this was a moment that has been coming for England for a very, very long time, and that it actually goes beyond Stokes's career. Because if you're going to balance a Test match team, You either need an all-rounder who can act as a 5th bowler and bat in the top 6 or 7, or you need a spin bowler that can bowl at any point in the match. Think about a Shane Warne who could come on in the first session in the first day if you needed it to. Well, England had that in Graeme Swann. Before Swann, they had Andrew Flintoff. We're going all the way back now to sort of mid-2000s, 2005, and a little bit before that. Swann and Flintoff's careers just about overlapped. So once Flintoff went, then Swan came and he balanced the England attack for a very long time. Swan's last career as an England cricketer was 2013-14 Ashes. Well, that was Stokes's first series as an England cricketer, and he's taken them through as that all-rounder until now. Well, right now England neither have a frontline spinner nor that all-rounder. So what are they going to do? In the first instance, they've gone to Dan Lawrence to bat in the top 6 and bowl a few of his off-breaks. They'll have 4 frontline seamers. here at Headingley. That's only because Sam Curran's not quite fit, um, to perform as a Test match bowler. And England have been pretty open about the fact that when Curran's back, he'll probably be the man to balance the side as a number 7 and a 4th seamer. But Curran isn't Ben Stokes. He's a fine cricketer. What do they say about him? He makes things happen. Um, but no one is Ben Stokes. And like I say, it'd be Lawrence who gets the first go. He's been in excellent form with the bat for Surrey. His offspin is handy. I would say it's no more than that. I think he's got a first-class bowling average in the high 40s, but that might be just what England need for this week— the 4 frontline seamers and a bit of Dan Lawrence's offspin. But beyond that, when they go into, to other conditions, when they need 5 frontline bowlers, when they maybe find themselves in the subcontinent and they've got to balance the team, well, that's going to be the really tricky challenge.

Remember, you can listen to every ball of this Test from Headingley starting at 10:25 on Wednesday morning. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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What about that number 3 then? No Jacob Bethell, who misses the series with an injury, or certainly the first 2 couple of, uh, of Test matches. So Jordan Cox gets his opportunity to bat at 3, and he spoke to you, Stefan, on Monday.

You've obviously had a bit of a, a bumpy time with injuries. When you thought that, um, you're going to make your debut in New Zealand, couple of years ago, and then you've been in squads other times as well when you've been injured. Did you ever think that maybe this moment might not come because of those bits of bad fortune?

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah, I remember, I think I was 3 days away from playing my first Test match and then obviously getting injured, which was just unlucky, a freak incident. But yeah, there's definitely thoughts of me going, I'm never gonna play again, you know, there's so many good players in English cricket. But it was all about just getting back on that horse and trying to score as many runs as possible and for selectors to go, he's still scoring runs.

It must be a difficult place to be though when you know you're that close to a Test debut and then you think, well, it might not come. Like, that's quite a test of your mentality.

Yeah, and I think whilst you're on the younger side, you just, I'm gonna have fun still. I'm gonna, you You know, you don't really think about the future, you just have fun, you enjoy playing with your friends, and I think that's why I've done well for Essex. I've just enjoyed playing with friends. I've had to earn the respect of a new club and players, and I think that's what I've done.

Was there also a bit of frustration as well because you've been in squads, and to me as well, from looking from the outside in, it's always felt like you were always the next man in line, you were always waiting for an opportunity and sometimes that opportunity hasn't come and that must be difficult too.

Yeah, like I've said a few times, professional sport. Injury is a professional sport and biding your time is— unfortunately, like I've said before, there's so many good players out there, you know, it was about biding your time but look, I've got this opportunity now where, you know, I'll try and take it with both hands and, you know, don't look back.

I think at the end of last season you won a stack of awards at the PCAs and we spoke to to you then, you reflected on that time in New Zealand and I think you said, I had a broken thumb and I went and sat on Bondi Beach for 3 months. Also thinking about your career, but also thinking about being a better person is what you said.

Yeah.

What did that involve?

Just being, just as cliché as it sounds, treat people how you want to be treated. I felt like unfortunately, coming from such a high to play Test cricket to then coming down to such a low, I felt like I was having like— getting annoyed with such simple things, you know, like misspelling something to a text to your family or just something so simple. And it really had to, you know, I really had to look at myself in the mirror and enjoy my time off with my girlfriend just to go, this isn't like— this isn't life-changing, this isn't Like, this isn't gonna— I'm not gonna die tomorrow, you know. This, for 80% of, you know, the people in the world, not even gonna have a clue about me making my Test debut, you know. So it's just about just having fun, you know. The sun's gonna come up in the morning. Just move on with life. Just enjoy it more.

Do you think that leaves you in a better position to take on whatever comes this week and next week, good and bad?

Yeah, exactly. You know, could get a pair. But, you know, it's not the end of the world. That's the thing, that when I had that Test cap right there and then I just couldn't get it, it felt like it was like the end, as bad as that sounds. But, you know, speaking to missus, speaking to people at Essex, just— and them just saying, the sun will come up and you'll move on. Like, there's so many people in the world. I remember talking to Virat about it. Like, he is Like, in my eyes, the pinnacle of cricket. All 3 formats for such a long period of time. Him and Joe, like, are absolutely incredible. And he was like, there's billions of people that don't even know, like, who I am. So it's like, the sun will come up in the morning. I don't really, I don't really care. So it's like, all right, well, obviously care when he goes out on the field to play because he's crazy when he goes out on the field. But when he comes off the field, he's one of the nicest guys you'll meet. But when you go out there, you're like, cool, this guy's tough work. So it's about, okay, how can I be that? How can I be really aggressive out on that field, and when I come off, everyone go, he's a great bloke.

You mentioned Virat Kohli because you've been a teammate with him in the IPL, and I don't know if you knew this, but there was photos of you having a coffee with him in London before your Test debut. What did he say to you?

Loads of things. I probably don't want to share all of them. But he was just— I was just— I wanted to ask him a few questions really. He's faced all these bowlers before for New Zealand, sorry. And I basically was just like, what do you think? What do you think my plan is? Like, what do you think? You've obviously played at the Oval in the Test Championship.

Like, what do you think?

And he was just basically saying, just enjoy the moment. He was like, you only get one debut. Just enjoy it. Have fun. You know, your family And your friends, it's like a— he didn't say it's a day for them, but it's like everything they've worked hard for, every time they've come to a game to support you, you know, show them something why they've done all that sacrifice for you.

Keeping in mind what he said to you going into this week as well?

Yeah, I'll keep it forever, I think. Yeah, he's someone that I've looked up to and I've managed to spend those— felt like 4 months in India, but he's someone that I've You know, I'll text, you know, if I'm ever feeling down or I need a bit of help, and he's always at the end of the phone.

Last one. We've talked a lot about you, but there's been a lot of change for this England team over the past month. It's going to look a different side going out to play against Pakistan on Wednesday. New captain. How exciting is that for this group of players to be starting a new era afresh? And to, I don't know, for some young players like you to put your own stamp stamp on the highest level of the game?

Yeah, I think you've nailed it. I think it's so enjoyable. It's so enjoyable playing for England. You know, we've got Tres as head coach for the time being. Flem will then come. Look, it's awesome for Test cricket. You know, it's awesome for English cricket and we're all looking forward to it.

Good luck.

Thank you very much.

So Jordan Cox there. I mean, what an opportunity this is, Steph.

Yeah, weird circle of life, isn't it? A couple of years ago, Jordan Cox was supposed to make his Test match debut. He broke his thumb in the nets and Jacob Bethell got that opportunity and Bethell ran with it and established himself in all 3 formats. Now it's Bethell's injury that has allowed Cox back in to probably get all 3 Test matches of this series at number 3. I find Jordan Cox a really, really interesting cricketer for his multi-format talent, for his talent across all sports. He's a brilliant golfer. You'll have— no surprise there, Henry, is there, with the—

You amazed me.

England cricketers. But for the way he speaks, and I thought that was a lovely interview, um, actually, the way that he spoke about what he learned about himself after that broken thumb in New Zealand, that he went away to become a better person, taking advice from Virat Kohli, where you can't get advice from many better individuals than Virat, can you? Um, I've always felt that Cox has been quite unlucky. He's always been the next man, hasn't he? He's always carried a lot of drinks and been around England squads in all 3 formats, but he's really talented. And in that Test match at the Oval, um, when England were decimated, they had to make 5 changes. They handed out 3 new caps, and of those debutants, it was Cox who just flickered ever so briefly. I think he made scores of 27 and 25 batting at number 7. Now he's at number 3. Um, I don't think he's ever batted at number 3 in first-class cricket, but he has done a little bit of opening at the start of his career. At Kent. He's had an excellent record at Essex ever since he switched counties. He really does deserve his opportunity, and if he goes well, well then there's a decision for England to make, isn't there? Because there are questions over a few other places in that team. How's Emilio Gay going to go? Is Jamie Smith absolutely nailed on as England's wicketkeeper? Cox could do a number of roles in that top 6. So if he gets runs, there'll be a decision to make when Jacob Bethell is fit.

Indeed, you mentioned Emilio Gay, 2 ducks in that warm-up match against Pakistan at Beckenham. Um, but we've, we've looked at the, the absentees in the England side in, in Ben Stokes, Jacob Bethell, Atif, but now we get the news that there's no Babar Azam, which is, which is a big blow, isn't it? Always is.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, he's, um, you know, for all his, um, sort of detractors and, and sort of the the difficult run that he's been on really over the last 5 or 6 years. He was on a trajectory to becoming sort of one of the all-time greats, certainly for Pakistan, and he sort of fell off a little bit, um, particularly in, in sort of the white ball forms of the game. But in Test cricket, he still remains, uh, you know, one of the best in the world really. He hasn't scored a century before in England, but despite that, he's got a very good record in England. Only played, uh, 4 or 5 Test matches here and averaging in the, in the high 60s. And obviously, a player like that, it's not just about his numbers, it's also about his stature as well. Like he's a bona fide superstar in that Pakistan side, a player that when he walks out, he's carrying the weight of his achievements and the gravitas of, you know, everything that he's done before he's walked on the pitch. So it will be a huge blow to Pakistan. Salman Aliyaga, who's going to step into his shoes, very, very inexperienced in terms of first-class captaincy. He's been Pakistan's T20 captain for a while, but he's never ever captained a single ball of first-class cricket. So this will be intriguing to see how he goes. What he does have is obviously the respect of the players. And you know he's commanded his dressing room in T20 cricket, although he hasn't been able to you know have the kind of run I'm sure that he would have wanted in in white ball cricket. But here this is a completely different challenge captaining this Pakistan Red Bull side against England, and also that being announced on the eve of the test match as well is going to drastically change plans not just for England and the way they attack Pakistan's top order, but also for Pakistan. The one upside is there is a ready-made replacement for him in the sense Saud Shakil, who in that warm-up match scored 100. in the second innings, an unbeaten 100. He'll, um, he'll get a start almost certainly now tomorrow, and he's a terrific player, very, very elegant, as you sort of expect from sort of middle-order Pakistan stalwarts. And, um, it makes a selection dilemma disappear from a Pakistan perspective, but a hole is nonetheless still left behind with Babar Azam being ruled out.

Stefan, this feels like an opportunity to me for Pakistan because, yes, they've finished bottom of the, the World Test Championship cycle. They've lost 13 of their last 18. They've not won a Test series outside Asia apart from against Zimbabwe since 2017. I mean, all of those numbers tell you it's not going to happen for them, but they're quite well prepared. They've just played a West Indies series overseas. They played that warm-up match at Beckenham. I just, I have a feeling they're gonna not— they're not gonna be an easy opponent.

Oh, Henry, I did wonder if we weren't gonna go down the preparation rabbit hole, you know, and that conversation that's Going on, um, in world cricket at the moment after, um, what Bangladesh have done to Australia over the weekend. And who knows, maybe Pakistan can just take a little bit, bit of inspiration from that as well. And I'm not going to go down the Hundred rabbit hole either, but because of the Hundred, Pakistan have played more Test cricket in July and August than England have, because as Aftif mentioned earlier on, they've been out there in the West Indies playing Test matches, and they've just played that warm-up game against the PCC XI as well. Not won a Test series in the UK for 30 years, have Pakistan. And if you think of the players that would have been involved in that series back in 1996, Wasim and Waqar and all the rest, and all the players that have come here since then only to be beaten. There was a famous drawn series under Misbah-ul-Haq not so long ago. Where I think Pakistan are really dangerous to this England team is the bowling attack. If you think of what Mohammed Abbas could do. And, you know, once again, we're talking about a new era for England. Well, would Mohammed Abbas have fitted into England's old era? There's not much airspeed there, is there? But there's a lot of skill. There's moving the ball around. England, when they were last in Pakistan, they were spun out by Sajid Khan, the off-spinner who had a pretty good time in the second Test match against the West Indies as well. It's not quite as hot as it has been. Um, in England, I thought he was a real threat actually if the weather was going to stay really, really warm, and, and he still might be. So yeah, there is a vulnerability, isn't there, about that England top order and some skillful Pakistan bowlers, um, in their attack. The question will be, can they get enough runs against what will be a 4-pronged England seam attack? Atif smiling.

Well, I've got a different question. Will they pick their best bowling attack as well? Because Mohammad Abbas was left out of the 11 that won against the West Indies in the 2nd Test. You're a depressed wicketkeeper.

You can't leave him out.

Well, you'd think, you'd think it's the obvious thing to do is to not leave him out. He was superb in the 1st Test as well. And Pakistan, um, sort of when they were justifying that selection, they said that, well, what we want is a little bit more pace and also we want to play an additional spinner. So they replaced, uh, Mohammad Abbas with Toba Airspeed.

Uh, have they got a bit of the Baz ball?

Yeah, well, there we go. Yeah, I mean, it's, it was just, it felt really bizarre at the time. And of course they went on to win the Test, so there's fewer questions and the eyebrows have to be pushed back down rather than naturally go down. But I mean, I'm just a little bit dubious about the way some of the selection has taken place. The selection panel, interestingly, is sort of almost entirely made up of Ms. Bulhak's era. So that era of Pakistani cricket that was actually quite successful and for the briefest moment number 1 in the world, they, you know, they were the best Test team in the world, I think, for all of 3 weeks. So Um, that came off the back of that 2016 series as well against England. So they, you know, they, they're trying to find something from that era. Asad Shafiq is part of the, um, the selection panel. Sir Faraz is head coach and also part of the selection panel as well. So they've tried to sort of get that brains trust together that had a successful run for Pakistan in Test cricket and see what combinations they could come up with. Sometimes they do make quite left-field choices. I mean, you could see 2 spinners feature tomorrow as well for Pakistan. It'd be It's very hard to predict which 11 they're going to go with. I think common sense will prevail and Mohamed Abbas will get the nod, but we just can't say for certain.

Like I say, he did the press conference yesterday, Mohamed Abbas, and that's always a little bit of a clue, isn't it, that someone's going to be included in an 11. He was taking the new ball at Beckenham last week. I just, I want to, I almost want to see him left out tomorrow morning to see what your reaction would be, Atif. We'd have to hold you back from getting yourself onto the square. To be confronting someone.

Well, he's, as you say, so many wickets. I mean, he's famously kept Pep Guardiola out of his hotel room as well at one stage. So there's a story for commentary at some stage. But yeah, I mean, the big sort of critique of him amongst Pakistan fans and supporters is that, you know, he bowls at 77 miles per hour. Now you've got to remember, this is a country that has a heritage of fast bowling. You know, we're talking about, you mentioned Wasim Waqar, but Shoaib Akhtar, and go further back, Sarfaraz Nawaz, go all the way back to Fazl Mahmood. Like, Pakistan is a country that produces Express fast bowlers, so it's quite disarming in a way to have like this you know late 70s early 80s fast bowler trotting in. But he you can't deny the man's record. You can't deny the man's skill and the fact that he's you know stayed consistent on his discipline. He's focused on first class cricket. He doesn't get to play in the PSL. You know we've seen the likes of you know Shahin Afridi, Naseem Shah. They've all gone to the PSL. They're the big star names. Where are they? They're not in this Red Bull setup. Muhammad Abbas is, so he deserves credit for standing by the format. And, and you'd expect him to feature, and if Pakistan are to be successful, you'd expect him to do quite well.

The other reason why you think he'd got to play is if Pakistan have been doing their homework on the sort of bowlers that have had success against Joe Root and Harry Brook in particular over the past little while— Michael Nisa, uh, and those sorts of, of medium-fast bowlers in Australia with Alex Carey standing up to the stumps— then Matt Henry for New Zealand with Tom Blundell standing up to the stumps. Surely we are going to see Rizwan up to the stumps to Mohammad Abbas at some point during this series, trying to get Root and Brook pinned to the crease, because that is something that has been really successful for England's opposition over the past year. I'd be absolutely stunned if Abbas is not in the Pakistan XI tomorrow.

It's because the 4 seam bowlers that Pakistan have with them, 5 if you include Ahmed Jamal, who's a bowling all-rounder, I mean, they're all quite close together. They're closely in contention with each other. You've got Mohammad Ali, who also performed really well, Both in the series in the West Indies and also in the warm-up match. You've got Khurram Shahzad, who's kind of expected to be, you know, like a frontline bowler for Pakistan in this format for a long period of time. And then Ubaid Shah as well, who's Naseem Shah's younger brother, who had a terrific PSL and has a good first-class record. And he's sort of been fast-tracked into the Test side as well. He replaced Mohammad Abbas in the West Indies and had a really good game as well, has to be said. So they're all sort of close together. The question comes if Pakistan look for that balance. Do they look for— if they look for Amir Jamal in the stone Stokes position, um, then they sort of have to sacrifice one of their spinners. They might play 4 seamers and play no spinners at all, but I reckon Sajid Khan will get a game, um, you know, the off-spinner. They do have Ali Usman, the slow left-armer, as well. Both of them have given very good performances, but then you kind of want them to look at the conditions and think, okay, 2 spinners might be a bit much at Headingley, but I just can't rule it out.

I'm glad to hear that you're— that Pakistan are looking for someone in the Stokes position as well as England.

Everyone, all Everyone always is. One-word answer from you both. Uh, who's favorites for the series?

I think undeniably England.

Yeah, England.

England.

I was about to say England don't lose very often at home, but they just have. Uh, maybe let's say Pakistan don't win very often in England. Uh, and, um, England, England should win this series ahead of actually some very stern Tests to come. South Africa and Bangladesh over the winter, then the Ashes next summer. than a trip to India. Um, welcome to the captaincy, Joe. If anything, this is a series that you really do have to win to get up and running.

Stefan Atif, thank you very much. That's it for this edition of the TMS Podcast. Make sure that you subscribe so you don't miss an episode as we upload our daily reviews from the Test at Headingley. You can watch the highlights of each day's play on BBC Two and the iPlayer from 7 PM Well, thank you so much for listening. We'll speak to you next time.

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