Stokes says 'no need for massive change' ahead of first Test

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Hello, I'm Simon Mann and welcome to the Test Match Special Podcast. We're at Lord's on the eve of the first men's test of a new summer. 5 months after losing to Australia in Sydney, England embark on a 3-match series against New Zealand. Rob Key is still the managing director, Brendan McCullum is still the coach, Ben Stokes is still the captain. They all survived the 4-1 Ashes defeat. But England's woeful tour of Australia has led to intense scrutiny of their tactics and approach and plenty of criticism. And I think it's fair to say we're all intrigued to see what comes next. To come, we'll hear from Stokes, McCullum, and New Zealand captain Tom Latham. And the BBC's new cricket correspondent Stefan Schemelt is with me. Stefan, a new summer in theory a new chapter, but actually is the pressure on England greater than normal for a series like this? I'm thinking a non-Ashes Test match.

I think it is because the temperature could get quite hot if they lose this first Test match, or certainly if they lose the series. And I do wonder back to 2014, if you remember when England lost the Ashes 5-nil in Australia, only Alistair Cook survived from the management team as captain, and it actually got worse for him after that. They lost to Sri Lanka at Headingley, which meant they lost that Test series, and they came here and lost to India, and that was when Cook thought about quitting the job. He managed to turn it around and actually won the Ashes a year later, so how, you know, Brendan McCullum and Ben Stokes would like a bit of that. I think the pressure is on, but the other thing I think is how good is it just to get back to see some cricket? We have done been so much talking over the past 4 or 5 months, I think people will be fed up of hearing about Laila Khil, about Snicko, about Nusa, but I think as we're going to discuss over the next little while, the context of all that is so important and that is what hangs over this team as they go into this summer.

Okay, well we will be discussing all those things. You've been speaking to Ben Stokes, there's plenty to discuss. First question, how good is it to be back playing after the talk that's followed the Ashes defeat?

I mean, I've not done that much talking, to be honest. It's been other people. But yeah, but look, finally here, June. I think because it's such a late start, something that we're, you know, the international summer shouldn't really be starting this late in June.

And it's raining.

And it's raining again. Yeah, feels like March. But yeah, it's been a long time coming. Been great to get together as a group and just sort of get into action and yeah, I think a lot of people are just sort of ready to get going. Obviously it's day 1 tomorrow, hopefully this weather clears up, but yeah, it's been bizarre sort of waiting for the international summer to start so late.

You named a 12 yesterday, are you any closer to having an 11?

No, again, like we knew that the weather was going to be around, we don't know what it's going to do. If we lose some time You know, again, we just want to give ourselves as many options that we possibly can where we knew that the weather might play a part in terms of how much we lose, especially at the start of the game.

Sonny's in the 12, Sonny Baker. What can you tell us about him? And I don't know, his character, it seems to me that his character is the sort of thing that you would really like in a cricketer.

Yeah, Sonny's great. He's been someone who's been around the England setup for a while now, whether it be Lions and the One Day team, and he's been given you know, a good opportunity with Hampshire at the start of the season. So look, he's got airspeed, short, skiddy, and just leaves everything out there. But you know, every ball is an event with Sonny. He's enthusiastic, he loves playing cricket. And yeah, I think, you know, he's someone who I think the more he plays for England and the more the public get to see what Sonny Baker is like, people are gonna really enjoy him. I'd say he's like Matt Wood, he's just one of those lads who you just look at and he's just always happy but very, very competitive when it comes to doing the job and look, if he gets given an opportunity this summer, you'll see what he's got to offer.

When we spoke to Brendan yesterday he said that Shohib will play, will be in the 11. Could that change if the game gets shorter and the conditions and all those sorts of things?

Again, could, you know, saying if we could lose 2, 3 days without having a toss, who knows with the weather. So again, you've got to take all these things into consideration. If we do have a scheduled toss and it's on time, then things look a lot different. But yeah, look, naming a 12 just with the way the round just gives us a few more options.

And you're batting number 7, so what's the thinking behind that?

Yeah, it's something that sort of has been a discussion for a while. We started it a few months back and it sort of just sort of started growing more legs and more discussions as we got closer to the summer and Just like Jamie Smith, like, yes, he's in the team and he's keeping, and the regulation thing would be, oh, keeper bats at 7, but Jamie's an amazing batsman. He started the summer off incredibly well, Surrey batting number 3, so he's a batter as well as what he does behind the stumps for us. So his big innings that he's played for England, it's always been when one of our top order has been in and he's gone in and joined them and he's just batted and not been batting with a tail. So we feel like it's the right time for him now with being a bit more experienced to give him that chance to build innings as opposed to feeling like to bat with the tail, which is something that I feel like I can do. It takes a bit more, I guess, not responsibility off my shoulders, but obviously captaining, bowling, batting. Just I think overall for the team it's a really good move and a great move for Jamie, just giving him a chance to, yeah, just bat. I know it's only one sort of positional change, but 7 to 6, it's like you're going from, oh, I'm just batting at the tail end to being a number 6. It's quite a big, I guess, mental shift for him. But look, he's— we all know that he's incredibly talented with the bat, and eventually, if the more he plays, he might find himself pushing even higher up the order.

In one of the games you played for Durham, you took the new ball. Any chance you take the new ball this week?

Again, like We've been speaking about all these different things and the makeup that we've got with our bowling lineup. And but we've got, you know, Ollie Robinson and Gus Atkinson in the team this week who, you know, all things, if we do end up tossing at the right time, you'll see those two with the new balls. But, you know, who knows what can happen in the game. Might get a feel where I feel like I might take the new ball. It's just everyone's been told and been given that option when they've been playing for their counties of taking the new ball just so they can feel comfortable doing it because yeah it's something we want to get a little bit better at is just being not necessarily that we've always been rigid but just being able to go well we've got a 4-man attack here any 4 of them could take the new ball so yeah who knows.

After everything that happened over the winter and obviously the disappointment out there in Australia What do you want to see from your team this week?

I mean, it's a very simple question to ask, but we've been— there's been so much talk about— because, you know, the last time we played a game was in January. What I say doesn't really matter. It's at the end of the game that is what everyone's going to care about, whether we win or lose. We've done all the talking as a team. We know the improvements in the areas that we want to see us evolve in. And it's about going out there and doing it.

Can I just ask what you've been through personally since the end of the Ashes? Because obviously you've had a lot of time away from the game, you've had your rehab from your injury and all those sorts of things, lots of time to think. What have you thought about? Did it hurt? What goes through your mind in those months since you last played?

Well, yeah, obviously it hurt. Anyone who thinks losing any series, let alone an Ashes away from home when you went there with such big expectations, if that doesn't hurt then Yeah, it'd be a bit silly to not feel like that. But time's a great healer. You go through a lot of emotions, you go through things where you sort of, I think you make things up in your head. But then when you go over things as in detail as I'd like to do anyway, and then as I have done in particular when we got back from Australia, it actually becomes pretty simple and Yeah, you're very clear in your head about what you want to do going forward and it's not a massive change, to be honest, as much as people probably want to hear us say that, it's not. It's just being a lot smarter in those, you know, big moments in games because I will admit that consistently when we were in the balance where it was neither one way or the other I just think we consistently let ourselves down with what decisions we sort of thought were the right ones to make, which let the opposition get ahead of us. And so identifying those moments, speaking about those moments, and being very clear that this is what's going on at the moment, and then going, this is what we need to do in this moment, and then we'll see where we are after that. It's just, it's honestly, it's not rocket science. We know how to win games of cricket. But we will admit that sometimes, especially probably over the last 18 months, we've paid, we've contributed towards losing games of cricket on too much of a consistent basis.

You put out quite a passionate Instagram post directed at England fans. Why did you feel that you wanted to do that, and do you think there's a bit of a relationship to be rebuilt there between the team and the supporters?

Supporters? Um, well, honestly, I don't— I'm not sure. We've never thought that there was an issue with our relationship with the supporters. We know that losing games of cricket hurts them just as well. It hurts them as much as it hurts us. Coming out to Australia with such high expectations, obviously, us as players the fans had it as well. It hurts to see, you know, a team that you support and have, you know, given a lot of time to go out there and lose, and especially in the way that we did it. It sucks, and it also sucks to be part of as a player. But we love our fans, we love the support that we get wherever we go in the world, home, away. So I'm not sure if there is what needs to be mended. Because we absolutely love everyone who supports English cricket and we always feel that support and we're very much appreciative of it. So yeah, we're still going out there and still trying to make people feel happy about that they support a team who know what they're trying to do. You know, we've got an identity as an England cricket team and we'll still be going out there and trying to show that.

Last one, Harry Brook had a tough time over the winter, particularly in the aftermath of the Ashes. Have you spoken to him? What have you seen from him? Have you seen him change as a character? Do you think that actually what happened could really benefit him in the long run?

That issue with Harry's been dealt with, it's been done with for a very long time now. So yeah, I think it's just Harry Brook should just be able to concentrate on his cricket without bringing that up again. Good luck this week.

Thank you. Well, that's Ben Stokes speaking to Stephen Shemmott ahead of the first test against New Zealand, which you can hear on Five Sports Extra and BBC Sounds from 10:25 on Thursday morning. So, Stephen, are we going to see a markedly different approach from England?

I think that is the thing that everyone wants to know. Isn't it? And you heard Ben Stokes there, his words were, it's not rocket science. And he's right, isn't it? Test cricket isn't— it's not a complicated game. You sell your wicket dearly, you bowl with intensity and with discipline, and you take your catches, and that's it. And England haven't done that. And his admission that a lot of England's problems over the past 18 months, and I'd even go further back than that, in terms of the Stokes-McCollum era, I'd go all the way back to the Test match they lost against New Zealand at Wellington right at the start of when Stokes and McCollum came together, when they lost by 1 run, when they enforced a follow-on. That set a pattern of England creating their own problems. So if you think of England's most sort of egregious defeats over this time, here against Australia at Lord's when Nathan Lyon limped off, the Test match before that in the Ashes when they declared at Edgbaston, in Australia just now at Perth when they were, what, 105 ahead on the second morning, only one wicket down in their second innings and they threw it away. Stokes is admitting that a lot of England's problems are self-inflicted. Now we're just talking about what's happened on the field and we could go into all sorts of things that happened off the field that were self-inflicted problems as well. I think a lot of people when they talk about wanting to see a different approach from England, they're mainly talking about the batting. That's what they They think, you know, we associate this England era with aggressive batting and big shots and falling in a heap from time to time. I don't necessarily have a problem with the batting. When you look at the order, it looks like they've got players who are somewhat aggressive, but now their tempos will be slightly mixed. We know that Zak Crawley's not in the team anymore. So I think Stokes is right, it is just not causing their own problems.

There'll be people listening to this saying, why couldn't they see this earlier? Why couldn't you see it before Australia? And the thing is, there wasn't a lot of hindsight criticism after the last Ashes series because the criticism was there before the Ashes series, wasn't it, about preparation and the way England play.

But are you also talking about— are you talking about the off-field stuff?

No, I'm talking more just the way they play, actually.

It all goes down to— but that is the whole environment, isn't it? And sometimes England have been quite light on details, and part of Brendan McCullum's mantra was to strip so many things back. And I go back to the first Test match where he was in charge against New Zealand 4 years ago, and one of the things that he was horrified by was how many backroom staff there were in the dressing room. And we used to see them, didn't we, in that corner down there in front of the scoreboard everyone be out on the outfield and you think, "You can't even see the players, there's that many people in the back room." And McCullum stripped all that back and it became more about the vibe and the attitude and the feeling inside the dressing room. And I think that is what bled into England causing their own mistakes on the field. We know that their coaching staff in Australia was threadbare, we know that they didn't have the preparation. I talked about Lila Keel earlier on and that no one would want to hear that again, but they did, they just had that one game there. We know what they did in Nusa, and just that whole approach of slapdash, I think that's the way I would describe it, that is what bled into their cricket. Now what have we seen that might change going into this series? What details have we seen? Well, Marcus North is the new selector. One thing that we know actually that he's doing that Luke Wright, his predecessor, didn't do, he's been giving the messages to the players about who's in and who isn't. Brendan McCullum, used to do that. They've beefed up the coaching staff. They've got Sarah Taylor as a fielding coach. Other coaches have been around in the camp at Loughborough last week and again in the preparation to this game here. They've even got a full-time chef, Simon, who started this week. How many times have you stayed in an England team hotel on tour and seen a player loitering around in the lobby after a day's play waiting for his takeaway to arrive? Doesn't seem very high performance, that. Well, maybe that'll change.

We saw quite a lot in Australia actually, didn't we? Yeah.

So these are just, these are details, but Ben Stokes, he said none of that matters really. Not what he says matters, what matters at the end of this is the results. Well, if those details give England what they're missing in order to get the right results, well, they're moving in the right direction.

What about personnel? So Sonny Baker, is he likely to play? How much is he in the frame? They've named a 12, and that's got a bit of a change actually as well because they used to just name 11 couple of days out, but actually they named a 12 for this game.

Yeah, they got into naming a 12 a little bit during the Ashes, and I think that's just because they just aren't sure about the conditions. Look, we're here now, the covers are on at Lord's, it's been pretty wet all day, the forecast's not great for the course of the Test match. Yesterday when we spoke to Brendan McCullum when the 12 was named, he was pretty strong actually on Shoaib Bashir being in the team, not necessarily, you know, just Shoaib himself, but he said that, you know, England want to play A spinner.

Well, we're gonna hear McCullum talking about that in a short while.

Yeah, and the reason I asked him, have you named a 12 because you're not sure whether you're gonna play a spinner or not? He's like, no, no, we'll play a spinner, then we've just gotta work out who the seamers are. But Ben Stokes has rode back a little bit from that today because he's making the point of, well, we don't know if we're actually gonna toss up tomorrow morning. We might not toss up until Saturday morning. So therefore, will a spinner be much use and do we need to play? An all-seam attack. If England do decide they need Bashir, they want that spinner, they think there's going to be enough time in the game, I think Baker will miss out. Stokes let it slip when he was asked, are you going to open the bowling? He said, no, no, no, it'd be Ollie Robinson and Gus Atkinson. He tried not to tell us, but then he did. But I'd love to have seen Sonny Baker. I'm really excited about him. I think he's got a great attitude. He reminds me a little bit of, remember when Darren Gough burst on the scene? Wholehearted, everyone got behind him.

It's a good comparison. It's one that sprung to my mind as well.

Yeah, you know, he bowls quick, he swings it both ways. He calls himself a carry-on merchant. What he means by that is he's always oohing and aahing and getting in a batter's face. His time will come, and I'm excited to see him in an England shirt.

Another change that we are going to see is Ben Stokes at 7, dropping down the order. What do you make of that?

Well, England are explaining it in sort of two ways. One, that they want Jamie Smith to have more time with the batters. And Smith himself, he didn't have a great Ashes series. He's only had a short Test career, Jamie Smith, but the times he has batted at 6, he's got a better average at 6 than he has at 7. And Stokes said, well, we looked at his best performances with the bat and they've come when he's been batting with batters, not necessarily with the tail. And there are a few times in the Ashes, I certainly think back to Perth, when Smith could have done a better job of marshalling the tail. And he didn't. And then also, is it just a reflection on where Stokes is as a cricketer? He only averaged 18 with the bat in Australia. Now, having said that, he had a very good time with the bat against India last summer, but he said, you know, it is a lot being captain, to captain, to bowl, to then bat at 6 sometimes. And he said that he feels that he's maybe got the experience and the skills to marshal the tail slightly better than what Smith has done, but I do just wonder if that is the old Stokes, the sort of the water into wine Stokes. He's not that sort of batsman anymore, partly because he doesn't play a lot of cricket outside of playing for England. He's only played 2 Championship matches for Durham this summer. You know, I think he finds it hard to get the rhythm of batting just because he doesn't do it, um, very often. So we'll see. I mean, the other point that Ben Stokes made, well, I'm 35 tomorrow on the first day of the Test match. Jamie Smith's got his entire Test career ahead of him, and maybe he will even nudge further, further up the order. Maybe it's a little bit of look into the future as well. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Okay, let's hear from Brendan McCullum now. He is the longest-serving England coach not to have won the Ashes, and most don't survive the sort of Ashes defeat that England experienced in the winter. How has he coped with the scrutiny after The Australian debacle.

I think when you take on jobs such as this, you know, when you're coaching the England cricket team, you understand the pressures and the demands and the scrutiny that come with things. And I've always been operating in this game for the best part of a couple of decades, and you don't get to be in the positions you're in without some sort of resilience and ability to be able to handle some of that scrutiny. So look, I understand it. And from my point of view, I'm incredibly optimistic about where this cricket team can get to and some of the steps that we need to make to get us there. And my focus is very much on that. And I just can't wait for the summer to get underway and to see us playing cricket again and hopefully being a better version of what we've been in the past.

Shoaib, obviously he didn't play during the Ashes. He hasn't played actually for England since this ground and that amazing moment last summer when he took the wicket to win the Test match against India. Everything that he went through during Australia, was his bowling in as good a place as you would have wanted it to be? And if it wasn't, what have you seen from him at the beginning of the season with the move of counties and him getting more overs under his belt?

I'll sort of answer that question the other way around a little bit. I think what we've seen since he's made the shift in county and been able to get game time under his belt We know that he's an immensely talented cricketer and he just needs more and more opportunity in playing cricket. And you can only do so much when you're in the nets, right? And playing cricket for a young spin bowler and being able to work through various situations and scenarios, not always just an attacking option, but working out how to be able to perhaps be a controlling bowler if the phase of the game requires that, and be able to go through those different gears. And to get some game time under his belt in the last little while has been hugely beneficial. He's growing at quite amazing speed, I think, not just in his spin bowling, but even just his presence and his overall athleticism as a cricketer as well. You know, we took a punt on Bash a couple of years ago, and I think if you look at the numbers, that whilst there hasn't been absolutely knockout. He's done a remarkable job for us on numerous occasions in quite unfavourable conditions. So we firmly believe in Bash as an international cricketer. And if then I look back to why he wasn't really required in Australia, it wasn't to do with how the ball was coming out of his hand per se. It was just we felt the conditions, as did Australia, were more conducive to seam bowling. And, you know, whether you got that right or whether you got it wrong, That was what we went for at the time, and obviously it meant that Bash wasn't involved in the series, but we still remain incredibly confident and optimistic of Bash's development as a cricketer and the role that he can play for us.

Last week you hinted that Ben might bat at number 7. Will he bat at number 7?

He will bat at number 7, yeah. Jamie Smith will bat at 6 and Ben will go down to 7, and I think it's quite a nice balance. But where we're at, Stokes and I talking about it, we think it's quite a nice balance of, a) trying to get Jamie Smith to be able to have a little bit more time with the out-and-out batters before he can use his power down the order. And then if Stokes finds himself operating with the tail, he's got so much experience and he's batted in those positions frequently where he's able to shepherd the tail and devise a strategy to try and still give yourself some impact down the order. So look, it's a small tactical shift and And I think it's something that we're going to have a go at and we'll see where it lands, but everyone's on board with it.

Whose idea was it?

Nah, both of us really. Stokes and I were kind of— we chat a lot, right? And we always, a lot of the time we chat rubbish and sometimes we chat sense. And on this occasion, we both kind of arrived at the point where it's like, have we thought about this? And we both said, well, I have been thinking about it, and I said I've been thinking about it, he said he's been thinking about it, and then we decided that it's worth a go.

Just a couple of bits of admin. When do you expect to see Joffre Archer? Will he be good to go for the second test? And how's Brydon Carse?

Yeah, Joff again, we need to assess. He's obviously gonna— he's having a little bit of a break at the moment. The thing about Joff, that he's— what we've seen in the past is when you can leave Joff to his own devices to work on his game and to follow the plan that you set and he turns up with having followed that plan to absolute tee. So, you know, I expect when we see him, we'll work out where he sits and whether he's available for the second test. If not, then we'll obviously look for the third test. And Brydon Carsie was involved in the camp at Loughborough, and he just keeps progressing. It'd be nice to get some game time into into Karce because I think he does benefit from playing a little bit as well. I think that just zeros him into his focus a little bit too. That's probably one of the lessons we've learnt from the past also. So we'll assess where he's at, but for now we've got a squad which we're really comfortable with. We think it lines up nicely for Lords, lines up nicely against New Zealand. Guarantees us nothing, but we're confident that we'll show a good account of ourselves over the next 5 days.

A couple of last thoughts. Yesterday the ICC announced a trial to mitigate a ban against Bad Light for using a pink ball in daytime Test matches if both teams would agree. If I offered you a pink ball for this game, would you go for it?

Well, I don't think— I mean, the position from us, I guess, in English cricket is that it's not something we're looking at, and we've got enough on our plate dealing with the here and now rather than worrying about what's decisions that need to be made well down the line, so I'll punt that one down the road, Stéphane.

So that's Brendan McCullum speaking on Tuesday. You can keep up to date with the first Test on the BBC Sport app and website with live text commentary available throughout the summer. So no pink ball in operation in this Test series. It came out as a big surprise, the ICC, the other day. It seemed to take everyone by surprise as well. You can do it, everybody, but we're not going to tell you quite how you can do it. And it's up to you to do it.

Oh, man.

Yeah, it was a really strange announcement, actually.

Yeah, and it's still a bit light on detail, actually. Because you're right, an email dropped from the ICC. One of the outcomes of their board meeting that's been taking place recently is that they want to use the pink ball to mitigate time lost in Test cricket for bad light. But the experiment, we don't know when it starts, how long it's gonna last for. I'm not 100% sure, I've not had this clarified yet, whether or not the ball would change mid-match, or if in this situation you would say, "The forecast doesn't look great this week, let's play the whole game with a pink ball." Um, I'm not 100% sure if it has to be on the agreement of the two teams if it's ever gonna get off the ground, because Naturally, there will be some teams who just think, "I don't want any part of a pink cricket ball," and other teams who really do. I mean, I imagine that Mitchell Starc's licking his lips at the prospect of more pink ball cricket. I think the idea itself is good. If we can play Test matches with a pink ball, why do we stop matches for bad light? If we can play them under floodlights in the dark with a pink ball in 2026, it seems a little bit silly that bad light is still a thing. The details are what needs working through, and it sounds at the moment that England are pretty skeptical about it. And whether you were offering them a pink ball now at the start of a game or midway through it, I just don't think they would have any truck with it.

Yeah, plenty of flesh to put on the bones of that. Let's go back to the McCullum interview and some of the England chat in the interview. So Shoaib Bashir playing seems so strange to me when you think of the Ashes that he had. He's playing second division cricket. I actually worked out there are 4 English qualified bowlers playing in the First Division that made a better start to the season than Shoaib Bashir. He's taken 15 wickets at 37 for Derbyshire, he's bowled 200 overs, but there are 4 bowlers that actually made a better start to the season: Patterson-White, Crane, Bess, and Coles. They've either taken more wickets and/or have better averages than Shoaib Bashir. How did England sort of go back to Shoaib Bashir after dispatching him into the wilderness in the winter?

Well, I'll put it another way, and almost ask a question of you. England didn't— England picked Shoaib Bashir when he wasn't playing county cricket, so therefore would it be odd to not pick him when he has been playing county cricket?

I think it's a really odd situation. I think he's a bowler for me. He might go out and take wickets in the next month, but he's a bowler that— he's only young, he's got a lot of talent, and therefore you just let him play, let him play and develop. And I thought his selection for the Ashes, and I thought that a couple of years out was wishful thinking, and we got to the Ashes, and lo and behold, it was kind of wishful thinking because they didn't trust him to play.

I think the reasons why England like Shoaib Bashir have not changed. They've invested in him over a long period of time, and if they felt that he was bowling well, then there was no reason for them not to pick him. Now I understand the argument of saying, well, there was an experiment with Shoaib Bashir. He was picked for very specific circumstances that they thought he'd do well in Australia. It turns out he didn't play in Australia, so therefore leave him be to go away and learn his game in county cricket. He could play first-class cricket for another 20 years. I do take that point, but there was a reason why England identified him The argument for us to have with those reasons is kind of neither here nor there. That is what they've decided. They've decided he's their man, and therefore if he's playing, why wouldn't they pick him? That, I think that's where I've landed on it. The only— and again, I understand why England have done this, and it's partly to protect Shoaib Bashir. They've never really once admitted that he was struggling in Australia. And it's interesting for us to come back to Lord's because this is where Shoaib Bashir last played a Test match. You remember he took that wicket to to win the third test against India. England went 2-1 up. Bashir had a broken— it feels like a lifetime ago, doesn't it, that when England would run a real high. Broke his finger, recovered in time for the Ashes and didn't play. And you saw him out there, Simon, playing in the warm-up games and the tour matches. You saw him in the nets and he just wasn't bowling well. I understand why England haven't admitted that, but I think it's also interesting that they have never admitted it, they must think that he's in a much better place right now.

How would you sum up the change of messaging from McCullum from before the Ashes to now?

Has there been one?

Definitely. I don't think anyone, and this is McCullum and Stokes, they couldn't do much more than they have in terms of saying, well, we made mistakes, because they did. Everyone could see it. And I think also we have to remember that they will have been as disappointed as anyone that the way that—

Do you think the messaging hasn't changed then?

I don't think we're going to see England play vastly differently to, to what we've seen before. And the reason I think that is because when England say there has never been a prescriptive approach to particularly batting. I think it does keep coming back to the batting a lot. That is where a lot of the frustration is. England have picked players that attacking cricket is their most natural way to play. If you think of Duckett, Crawley, Pope, Brook, Smith, of the top 7, there were 5 players of England's Ashes top 7 at the start of the series. Who would like to get on with it realistically. And that is what brought about their downfall. Now Crawley and Pope have gone to be replaced by Jacob Bethell and Emilio Gay, and I would say that those two players are much more even-tempered in the way that they bat. We know the way that Joe Root bats. We saw Stokes really bat himself into a bunker during the Ashes. So if you look at England's top seven, that is a much better blend, I would say, of attacking and moderate intent. That is a change I think we will see, but not necessarily because there has been some sort of edict of this is the way that we play, just because England now have a better balance of players where they don't feel the necessity to get after the bowling from ball one.

I think it's also been interesting watching Jamie Smith in Candy Creek they're batting at 3 for Surrey, taking a lot of time, the sort of time that you don't see him take at Test match level. I'm fascinated to see how England are going to approach it, whether they are going to go hard or whether you are going to see that adaptation and the cutting out, if you like, of unnecessary wickets, because I think we have seen that in the last couple of years.

I think it's also about decisions, isn't it? And you certainly think about some of the key moments in the Ashes, and this is going right back to at the start of our conversation of the self-inflicted problems. So poor Jamie Smith, he comes to mind straight away in terms of, you know, the shot that he played at the end of the Adelaide Test when he was going well and he was caught at mid-on. The way that he got out to Marnus Labuschagne when Labuschagne was bowling bouncers in Sydney. And maybe he's just got in his mind that, you know, the way to go about this is to attack. We don't take it, we don't take a backward step. And I think what Ben Stokes is talking about in decision-making, can England players make better decisions in that moment? Do they feel the comfort that the decision that they do take, which isn't necessarily all-out attack, well, is that going to be the right thing from the dressing room's point of view?

Okay, we focused a lot on England. What about New Zealand? They only played 5 Test matches last year. They played their one and only Test match this year against Ireland last week, a big win. England have beaten them in 6 of their last 8 meetings, but they have a lot of quality in both their pace bowling lineup and in their batting. Here's their captain, Tom Latham.

Tom, first thing to say, it's good to see you. Is it good to be here? You guys all ready to go?

Yeah, great to be here. I think any time that you're able to, or you get the opportunity to, tour England and to have the first Test here at Lord's is always really special. You know, fortunate some guys have played here a few times. Some guys' first opportunity to come and play here or be at Lord's. So yeah, it's always a special time and you're looking forward to, I guess, what the next 5 days presents.

You guys haven't had loads of Test cricket in the last little while. I think it's only 6 matches since you last played England at the back end of 2024. We did have a match last week in Ireland. So how was that as a tune-up and what sort of shape would you say the team is in? Having not played loads of Test cricket?

Yeah, as you said, we only had 3 Test matches last summer, our New Zealand summer, so a reasonably small diet of Test cricket. But, you know, we had a really good week last week, obviously a Test match against Ireland, which, you know, gave us a really good opportunity to, I guess, to be in a competitive environment where, you know, there's consequence and all that sort of thing versus, you know, playing, I guess, a warm-up game where, you know, things look slightly different. So Yeah, it was a really good hit-out. Some guys had a great time in the middle, some guys had some great times with the ball, and yeah, it was a great week. We had a great week before that in New Zealand where we're able to replicate things as best we can and give ourselves the opportunity to, I guess, to be in a position where we think we're ready. And yeah, we're certainly ready to go and guys are excited.

I think I know the answer to this question because the pitch is still undercover and it's raining. Have you got an 11?

Not yet. We will finalize that at training today, but as you said, conditions don't necessarily look the best over the next couple of days. But, you know, regardless if you're with bat or ball, it's always about trying to adapt to what's in front of you and try to play accordingly. So, you know, we'll have the opportunity to do that with either bat or ball tomorrow morning, and hopefully we can start well.

What's going on with Mitchell Santner? Because I thought he was injured, but yeah, he's here.

Yeah, he's had a miraculous recovery. Shoulder problem? Yeah, so he did his AC joint in the IPL, you know, in the initial time frames that we were told, you know, weren't necessarily going to marry up with this tour. But he's obviously done exceptionally well to get himself available for this series and to finally be here. So, you know, it's I guess that's testament to the work that he's put in over the last few weeks and the medical staff as well to get him available and be ready to go for this series.

Does his selection depend not on fitness but the balance of the team?

A little bit, yeah. So I think we've sort of seen over a period of time conditions that tend to favor, you know, the fast bowlers. It's, you know, that all-rounder spot that's always the discussion around what the balance that we want. So yeah, we'll obviously finalize that tomorrow, but you know, it's great to have him available for selection.

I'm glad you mentioned fast bowlers because it looks like you guys have got an embarrassment of riches actually at the moment in the fast bowling department.

Yeah, I think if you look back 6 months ago, you know, the injuries that we had, injuries throughout Test matches that we were faced with, and guys that were coming back from long-term injuries But to have them available now is really special, and I think that's the challenge with international cricket nowadays with the amount of cricket that's being played, different formats, different opportunities that the guys are presented with, is I guess them being available, you know, from a fitness point of view. And I think that the work that Willow Rourke and Kyle Jamieson have done to get themselves available and back into Red Bull cricket is only testament to the work that they've put in over over a long period of time with some, you know, reasonably serious injuries. So, you know, we're really excited to have them back. There's been some challenging nets over the last few weeks, but yeah, certainly excited that we have a, I guess, a full cartel to pick from.

Because there's a cycle of New Zealand cricket that led you guys to become the World Test Champions, and people would associate that team with Trent Boult, Tim Southee, Neil Wagner, guys that have moved on. You know, you've just mentioned Willow Rawe, Kyle Jamieson. We know what what Matt Henry can do, but there's other players as well like Nathan Smith, Blair Tickner. There'll be others that I'm forgetting now, that because there are so many quality fast bowlers in that squad, I mean, what's that like for a captain? Firstly, how do you decide who to pick? And then secondly, you know, to have those options out there on the field must be quite nice.

Yeah, I think that's the life cycle of a team, right? Where at times you have guys with a lot of experience, whether it be with bat or ball, and and they tend to move on, and other guys, I guess, fill their shoes in terms of what they've done over a long period of time. And I think you look at, as you mentioned, Matt Henry, you look at his Test career, you know, he didn't play a lot at the start of his career due to some of those names that you've just mentioned. But I think what he's done for us over the last sort of 2-3 years, been the real leader of our attack and been able to get around the younger guys or the guys that haven't necessarily played huge amount of Test cricket and he's led the attack so well. And we've seen Kyle's obviously been around for a long period of time, hasn't necessarily played Test cricket, but we know the experience that he has in international cricket. And then you've got, as you said, the guys like Blair Tickner, Willow Rourke, Nathan Smith, Zak Folkes, who, you know, have played limited amounts of Test cricket, but when they've had their opportunity, they've come in and taken it with both hands, which is what you want as I guess, captains, coaches, selectors, that when guys are presented with opportunities, they take them with both hands, and it makes our job tough in terms of the selection point of view. So as I said earlier, awesome that we have a full bowling attack to pick from, and everyone's ready to go, everyone's fully fit, and yeah, certainly excited about, you know, what they can do on the field. We know the skill that they've got, and I guess for us to piece it all together as a thing was. We're looking to do over the next couple of weeks and we'll see what happens.

Just as a last thought, it won't have escaped your attention what's happened to England over the past few months and the result that they had in Australia and the introspection that has happened since then. And as a man who you know very well leading the England team, how will Brendan McCullum have dealt with what's gone on and what you expect expecting from England as a response to what's happened?

Yeah, as you said, I guess over the last few months, or, you know, the Ashes obviously didn't necessarily go as well as they would have liked. But I think from Baz's point of view, Stokes's point of view, it probably just nails down the style of cricket that they want to play and the clarity that they want. And I think that's something that always stuck out when Brendon was with us, is how clear he was in terms of how he wanted to operate, how he wanted the team to operate. And I'm sure that's no different in the camp next door in terms of, you know, there might be a few changes in terms of the way that they play. We've seen there's obviously a few personnel changes in that lineup, but, you know, I'm sure things won't change a huge amount. I'm sure they'll want to tidy some areas up, but I'm sure that's sort of the same with most teams when you reflect on a series that, you know, doesn't necessarily go your way or play the way that you want to. You want to make those fine adjustments and and nail down that style of play that you have. So I'm sure that'll be no different. And we've played England a lot over the last sort of few years, whether it be series at home or series over here in England. So we'll lean back on those experiences. And, you know, if we are in situations that do look similar, how we might change things or do things the same or different. So, you know, two really good teams that haven't played for a few months now. So it's going to be a great series ahead.

Thanks for your time, good luck.

Thank you very much.

So that's New Zealand's captain Tom Latham. England got a good record against New Zealand. They did have that heavy win against them here 4 years ago. Actually, then they went to New Zealand not that long ago, actually a year before the Ashes, and they dominated that series until that bizarre last Test match when they— I don't know what goodness knows what happened— they lost by over 400 runs. But it felt like a truer reflection of that, of England against New Zealand, was that those first 2 Test matches that England control. What sort of test is this from New Zealand?

Just on the point of England's record, they've got a good record against everyone really, haven't they? We focused recently on the results against India and Australia, but England I think have only lost one home series since 2014, and that was against New Zealand at the back end of COVID Having said all that, that England are— do have a good record and they are really strong at home. Are New Zealand even favorites? Favourites for this series. I'm just going to throw that out there, but yesterday I was in a press conference where Kane Williamson was asked, "You're not the favourites," and I thought, they might be, you know, they have a more settled batting lineup than England, and they almost have an embarrassment of riches really in the seam bowling. I mean, Matt Henry must be really disappointed that Zak Crawley's not around because he had him on toast in New Zealand 18 months ago. Will O'Rourke is a fabulous bowler. He's quick, he's hostile, he's tall. Kyle Jamieson is back to fitness. There's Nathan Smith, Blair Tickner, Zak Folkes. If you look at the two teams, England seam bowling is in a real state of flux. I think this is the first summer since 2007 we'll have no Anderson, Broad, or Woakes. If you throw in there the fact that Mark Wood feels unlikely he'll ever play Test cricket again, there's no Joffre Archer, Brydon Carse is injured. And New Zealand have arrived on a cloudy, damp, wet week in Lord's when we think there's going to be a bit of grass on the pitch with their entire cartel, Tom Latham called it, all fit and raring to go. I just wonder whenever we do get the toss of the coin and if England are batting first, what might it be like on that first morning? Could England find themselves 3 down in the first hour and all those nerves and apprehensions and, I don't know, wounds suffered in Australia just get opened up again.

Yeah, very best wishes to Emilio Gay. Good luck on your, your Test debut. Well, that's what makes it so fascinating, I think, on the eve of this Test match and this Test series, because of the context. Thanks very much, Stefan. Test Match Special will be on air at 10:25 on Thursday for the start of this game against New Zealand. Subscribe to the TMS podcast on BBC Sounds so you get a notification every time we upload our end-of-day reviews. And you can keep up to date with all things cricket by following @BBCCricket on Instagram. So much sport today and all the goals as they go in up and down the league.

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