Stokes speaks to TMS as Cummins could return

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Hello, I'm Eleanor Aldroyd and welcome to the TMS podcast from the Gabba. On the eve of the second Ashes Test, the day nighter at this iconic ground to come. We'll be talking to England skipper Ben Stokes and chatting with Jonathan agnew and the ABC's Corbyn Middlemass as England make their final preparations for the test which starts at 4am GMT on Thursday.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

So it's hello to Agus, hello to Corbyn. Corbyn, welcome to TMS. Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me.

Well, it's lovely to be here in Brisbane together and we look out over this ground. So it's the eve of the test match. You can see the pops of yellow with the maroon and the blue seats in this extraordinary multicolored bowl with a blue sky above. And the sun is just setting as we're sitting here and Agar's. It looks peaceful, it looks tranquil come 2 o' clock tomorrow afternoon. It's not going to be either of those.

No, it's a brutal place. This is. I was just looking at my watch as you said, the sun is setting, which it is. That's course to six. A lot of play left and it gets dark pretty quickly in this part of the world. So there is going to be that long, that sort of twilighty dark time that makes day night cricket actually quite interesting. I know people, a lot of people aren't necessarily fans of it, but it does mean that more people can actually get to watch a game of cricket on the telly when they get back home after work. Kids hopefully can get involved in. Just depends on where you play it. And you play it somewhere at Brisbane or Adelaide or somewhere nice and warm and it's lovely. It's not so nice to try and play it at Birmingham but, you know, this makes it a very interesting game. But this is a, a much changed ground from how it used to be and it'll be changing soon, won't it? Because it's going to be. That's it. The Gabba is going to go and they're going to have a new all purpose stadium. So I don't know if we'll see test cricket at the Gabba again, to be honest, but there's some bad memories. They can bury all the memories of this place.

Well, I mean, yeah, you'd have thought Nasser Hussein will have bad memories. Steve Harmisen, you think of Simon Jones.

We're almost in position. Start listing almost where Simon Jones went down. Just looking down on it now, that's virtually that running towards the boundary in front of us is basically where he's. His career was wrecked. So, yeah, there have been some bad ones. I mean, the Steve Harson ball was extraordinary. Well, you can go all the way back. I mean, Michael Slater banging the ball for four. Rory Burns, as we know, NASA's decision. I just remember everyone just being absolutely astonished when the announcement came through. They chosen to stick Australia in. You know, it was all those sorts of things. Yeah, I mean it's it. But it has usually been, or virtually always been the first stop. And so I think all the sort of the tension, the apprehension and everything else that we saw, like a pressure cooker in Perth, hopefully from England's perspective will have dissipated a bit because I think, I think the players from both sides were kind of bouncing around like Duracell bunnies, to be honest. They were so revved up by everything. And so hopefully that has kind of dissipated now and. And these two teams can just get on and play.

I've been to day night test matches in, in Adelaide and in Hobart as well. We had that four years ago. Corbyn, how does it differ here at the Gabba from those places?

Well, the storm season of which we're in at the moment is clearly a big impact on the conditions here and generally they roll in in the early evening. Now we are lucky, looking at the forecast, that the first of those that we're Going to get during this test match is not until day four. And the way that this has panned out recently, obviously given that what we saw in the first test in Perth means that we might not still be going on day four. So that might not be too much of a problem for. I didn't say which way, I didn't say which way, but it is, I mean it at least when you look at the day night test matches here and you're trying to paint some kind of optimism from an England point of view, the last time the Aussies played a day night test here, Shamar Joseph happened to them where he picked up seven wickets in the last innings of that match. The West Indies got home by eight runs and there was another Test going back to 2016, 17, which was the first pink ball day night of here and Assad Shafiq scored a memorable 100 and Pakistan nearly chased down 490. They got within 30 runs of a world record chase. So interestingly, as dominant as the Aussies have been here a couple of times, they've been vulnerable. One in which they lost was a, was a pink ball fixture.

There's a lot of grass on that pitch too. I think that will surprise people. Pink ball grass, humidity, twilight. Yeah, there's a recipe there for a lot of, a lot of quick bowling and scene bowling.

And if you took all those factors in, let's say we haven't seen a single ball in Perth and you said these are the conditions in Perth and these are the conditions in Brisbane before the start of the Test most people would think oh, the Brisbane test is going to go shorter than the Perth Test given all those things that are baked into it. And yet what we've just witnessed in Perth is a two day test. And you think surely we can't get something that short again.

Well, I hope not. I mean it has been an interesting time, hasn't it? I mean I even had Australians today at a lunch I was attending actually saying that they hoped England would win this match. Now I don't, I don't, I didn't believe them but you're sort of hearing, hearing that message because they, because we want a good series and the fact is if England lose here, yeah, there's that. That could be the start of all sorts of stuff, of unraveling things and you know, to come back from two nil down, very, very difficult indeed. So this is a massive test for Stokes and McCollum, Rob Key, all those who signed off. The way that this tour has been run, they've chosen to do it their way. We've had that debate. They've got to make it work and if it doesn't work, then that's when the questions will be asked.

So we will hear from Steve Smith in a moment. He's been talking to Corbyn. Whether he's going to be captaining tomorrow remains to be seen. We'll get into that in a second as well. But first we'll hear from the England captain, Ben Stokes, who Jonathan spoke to a little bit earlier on. The very first thing we should mention, Agars and the way that you started with Ben Stokes, was talking about Robin Smith, whose death was announced yesterday. Such terribly sad news, particularly since he was around at Perth, wasn't he? We were due to be interviewing him on Test Match Special. He's had a very difficult time over the last few years. And then yesterday, the really upsetting news that he'd passed away.

Yeah, we were surprised by the news. Not necessarily. He has been very ill for some time and so he's just only recently really come out of hospital and been cared for. But he was a very fine player. The lovely thing about Robin, he was so courteous, so polite. Not the batsman, you know, the batsman. You saw the rasping cut and the hook shots and the bravery that you saw and kind of the almost exaggerated way that got out of the way of the short ball. I saw a picture of it today and it's all brought back the memory of. There'd be arms and a bat and everything would be all over the place as the ball flew past his nose, both feet off the ground. He was. He was a very brave batsman and a really good player. He struggled against spin, you know, he was a good player of fast bowling. But I think that what most people remember, Robin, those of us who played against him. Yeah, even. But dealt with him otherwise in this, you know, the interview situation and so on that you do with England teams. He was such a very courteous, very polite man. It's terribly sad.

So very sad news and something for Ben Stokes to reflect on with Jonathan.

We were informed yesterday around, yeah, the sad news of Robin. I didn't know him at all, really, but I knew a lot of people who did. And everyone said the same thing about Robin, you know, just absolute belter of a bloke. And they were said he was sort of a player who was, you know, you hear the saying a lot ahead of his time. Everyone just mentions the square cut and the pull shot. But, yeah, it's never nice news to hear of Someone who's represented the country, who's passed away a lot sooner than they should have done. And I think it hits a bit harder when you realise, sort of, you know, it was only a week, 10 days ago where Fred asked him to come in and speak with the young lions. And also last week at the Test match where he's. Yeah, you know, I think going in and, you know, into the commentary box and doing some talks and being very open and honest about some of the struggles throughout his life. So I guess when you take that in consideration, that wasn't a very long time ago at all to then. Yeah, marry that up with the news we got yesterday. It's very sad.

Yeah, you'd have liked the way he played. He said he was a punchy, pugnacious player. Now, let's talk about what we've got here. There's a lot of grass on that pitch. Is that more than you expected?

I didn't really know what to expect, to be honest. And that's what we've got. So, yeah, we'll have to see how it plays out.

Yeah. So the balance of the side with the spinner coming in, batsman, spinner, I guess, Will Jack, isn't it? How does that marry up with the conditions that you see there?

Yeah, it was always this pink ball games. Yeah, it's always one of. Probably the most. The. The one you have to think about the most because there are. There's certain periods in the game where obviously conditions massively change and how you try and I don't know how you try and use that in your favor. So it's just. Yeah, you got to feel like you got to put a lot of thought and effort not only to what balance your team feels like is going to be best for this, but also. Yeah, the lights.

Yes.

How you know in particular this one, how you feel like your spinner is going to affect the game.

Do you think your world you're going to spin might affect the game?

Well, look, we've looked into the day, night games here in Australia. Obviously, there's predominantly. I think quite a few of them have been playing at Adelaide. But, yeah, look, we've looked into that and obviously with having the ability that Will. Jack's had with the bat down at 8 as well, you know, we just feel that this week this was our 11 that we thought was going to give us the best chance of winning.

Yeah. Quick word about Mark Wood. Disappointing news, obviously. Any progress? I mean, you expecting him to be able to play a part in the series?

Well, that's yeah, certainly the plan. Yeah, a bit of a setback and disappointing moment for Woody. But look, he's doing everything he can. The medical guys are doing everything they can to allow him to, you know, hopefully be in contention for selection for the remaining three games. But yeah, look we're. We'll just see how things play out. But yeah, look, we're doing everything we can. He's doing everything he can to give himself a chance of being available for the rest of the tour.

So you chose to come together to Brisbane to reflect, I guess and also move on from what happened in Perth. What sort of thing have you been out and about? I'm not going to mention the cycling but it's good sir actually. But you know, what have you done? What do you think puts you have done that puts you in good position for this game to start afresh?

Yeah, the game finished in two days which is a lot earlier than planned. And it was important for us to really reflect on that and make sure that we didn't just go right over in Dunworth, move on to Brisbane. Because those discussions are so vital in the first step to sort of moving away from that and getting over that and then concentrating on that. And when you have those conversations as a group in an environment which isn't almost like classroom esque, if that makes sense. You know, the best conversations happen when they're just sort of. You seem to find yourself in the team room together and then conversation just flows and flows and flows and yeah, there's a team. Look, there were moments in that test match where we know that we could have been a lot better but also there was a lot of real positives to take out of that game. We know that we were ahead of that game for the vast majority of the time.

It must have frustrated you even more. I mean the fact that you look back at that and think we should have won that game.

Well, definitely, we all know that. We all know that that was a game that slipped out of our hands and there was some moments in that game that we contributed towards that. And look, we've done that. We've reflected on all those kind of things. We've looked at those areas where we feel like we could have been a lot better. And then we moved over to Brisbane and yeah, look, we had more of an opportunity to get into here to Brisbane. I can't believe the first thing we felt was when we stepped off the plane was you come into the sun and you just start dripping sweat. The humidity here was completely different. This is Our now fifth day of training, getting ready for this pink ball game. So look, we've trained in the normal light. We trained in the light. So yeah, look, we've prepared very, very well for this and we've given ourselves a real look at what things might change in terms of what it's like to bat ambol underlights and not underlights as well.

Yeah, but would there be a change? Well, there were some dismissals that were disappointed the batsman, I think in Perth. Is that an area that you've really kind of been looking at and trying to improve?

Yeah, I think when, as I've just said, you know, there were moments in the games where, you know, we've all looked back on that and you know, as a group and as individuals where, you know, we could have been better, as I said, and when we say we're going to stick to our process, our process has been very simple. It's put teams under pressure, absorb the pressure when it's needed, to chase the ball as hard as you can to the boundary and leave everything out on the field. That is our process of test cricket. And yeah, we could have been better at absorbing that pressure last week. We know that in those third and fourth innings, not only with the bat, but also with the ball because we know that when we are on top, we're very good at drumming that home. But yeah, those moments are last week are where we could have improved on. Definitely. And we all know that and we speak about that kind of stuff and we've addressed that, moved on and it's all been about Brisbane since we've done that.

Yeah, it's easy to develop a kind of a bunker mentality, siege mentality. You've got so much press, so many crazy front page photographs and stories going on. It kind of all adds to that, that volume, that noise, doesn't it, that you experience. How are you handling all of that?

Yeah, it's. It was. We knew what we were coming into away from the cricket, you know, we knew what it was going to be like. And I guess knowing that and so talking about this is what it's going to be like does actually make it a little bit easier when it is happening.

Do you sort of laugh at some of the stories?

Well, I don't know what else, what else there is to do really. So, yeah, it's part of it. You know, it always had, I think before my time, after my time, it's will always be the same in Australia and that's absolutely fine. But yeah, it's part of Coming to Australia, part of playing the national series out here. So, yeah, it's all good.

Okay. Last thought about this game, Ben, a lot hinges on this, isn't it? I mean, you know, two nil down would be a very difficult situation to be in. Not that you're considering that, of course, but this is a huge game, this series, isn't it?

Yeah. Last week was a huge game. This week's a huge game. Every game is a huge game. But in the series of this context, it's massive. And we're very, very excited to get going this week and hopefully we can get the series back to 1:1 and continue from there.

Mate.

Well, that was Ben Stokes talking to Jonathan a little bit earlier on, sitting in the stands here in the twilight in Brisbane. Interesting. I thought his body language. Ben Stokes this evening, Jonathan, he was very relaxed, more relaxed than last time. Quite laid back, I know. Yes. Last time was. Was quite spicy, wasn't it?

I thought he spoke really quite clearly about what they have talked about since Perth. And that's not in a. Dredging up all the old stuff again. But if they haven't really analyzed what went wrong in Perth and they haven't come up with ways of actually batting particularly better than they did in Perth. In Perth, and there's hardly any point in playing the games, if you think a bat like that again come out as recklessly as that, then they've learned nothing. So I go back to the point I made before we heard from Stokes there that, you know, this is the way they've chosen to play you. You have to change it sometimes. And you. And. And the way that they played in Perth was not good enough. It was unacceptable. It was not the discipline that you have to have in a test match, particularly a test match like this, where the conditions can change really quite quickly. So we'll see. You know, there's still that sort of that Canberra debate. I know it's cold there and everything else, but then, you know, you hear Ben talking about all the difficulty with the pink balls of, well, okay, you've chosen to do what you've done. You know, it's up to you. There are a lot of people who felt that they should have had taken the opportunity to have played some cricket. I mean, Zach Crawley, I'm looking at him playing out there, his football now. I mean, he's gonna be facing Mitch Stark again possibly tomorrow with that pair hanging over his head that he hasn't been able to get rid of at all. And I think he wakes up in the Night screaming and looking at Mitchell Stark rugging in because he, he hasn't had the opportunity to get rid of it. And I still, I, I would still maintain that there was not all of them, but some of the players would have been better off by going and having a hit and scoring some runs.

They have had four pretty intense net sessions here at the Gabba though, haven't they, Corbyn, over the last few days, during the daytime, in the heat, during the evening time. So we're just sitting here as, as we are at the moment waiting for them to, to go into the nets and, and they didn't look, from what I saw a couple of days ago, they didn't look like they were holding back, you know, that they were getting, they were getting those balls pinging down as, as fast as you possibly can with, with the ball chucker.

And I know Matthew Hayden talks about the nets here at the Gabba, that out of any of the Australian venues, they are the ones where the practice pitches replicate what happens out in the middle more than any other. I probably tend to, to agree with Agus a little bit in terms of being out there in the center wicket.

And actually seeing pressure in the nets.

And seeing the numbers tick over against your name. There's something about it, isn't there, as big round zero next to his name when he walks out to bat?

Absolutely.

The other thing about adaptability, and Smith made a point of this in, in his press conference where he essentially said, hey, that's what we do well in these conditions. And it almost felt like as much as he was praising his team, he was almost, almost sending a message to England saying, hey, if you don't do this, you're not going to be able to compete with us. And driving on the up in particular, I mean, you could write, you could write a, you know, the thickest book imaginable with many chapters about touring teams coming to Australia, getting caught driving on the up. And the top six batsmen, whether it was the first or second innings for England, all six of them were out driving on the upcourt in the cordon at some stage in that Test match. So make people recall the famous innings from Sachin Tendulkar at the SCG all those years ago and of course, famously didn't play a single cover drive in his, in his, in his glorious innings there. So England have to be extremely disciplined and try to put it away.

I'm sure they will have sat down there and look, looked at the videos and, you know, and we've got, there are Inexperienced players in this England team aers but there are players like Joe Root who's played multiple innings and you know, to make those kind of mistakes. Surely they're not going to make those mistakes.

No, but, but again people would argue that's because they haven't really played much cricket. You can go in the net, you can play big booming drives in the net. You know, okay, you might get inside nicks past the stumps or into the stumps or whatever. When you throw the ball back and you face the next ball, it's not, not the same as walking off bold, stark naught to, to your name and, and you know, bagging a pa. They've got to somehow tune their minds to playing a more disciplined game. But then you can't help but feel, and I think there's been a lot of over the top stuff written about England and arrogance and that stuff and you know, that's I think been a little bit harsh and I don't think necessarily that Stokes for instance is an arrogant man at all actually. But if they, you can see why it's used if a team refuses to adapt to, and make themselves better and to stubbornly say, well, this is how we play, so we're going to keep playing. This is our blueprint, as McCallum kept saying at the end of the last test. Well, okay, but perhaps your blueprint isn't right, Baz. Perhaps you've got to, you've got to refine your blueprint. You've got, you've got to learn because the evidence was there in Perth that that actually is not the way to play and win matches here.

I mean, he didn't say, did he? I mean Ben Stokes, he, he listed the four things that, that England, that, that, that is their, their mantra if you like. You know, one is kind of putting pressure on, one is absorbing pressure and I can't remember what the other two were but I mean those, you know, you can't really argue in lots of ways. You know, they're not saying we, we're going to go on the attack whatever the situation is. And I think in here in Australia that's almost been slightly, the, the way that basball has been maybe slightly misrepresented that it's always about, always about going on the attack.

Well, you look at the Perth Test match, I mean the, the ultimate way to go on the attack in the series would have been keeping the Australian bowlers in the dirt for as long as possible. It's not necessarily scoring at 6, 7, 8 and over. It was Just being able to, to bat time. And as much as they're saying that publicly, and that's the rhetoric, I just, I'm with you. I hope they're saying something differently internally. They don't have to come out and say to all of us, hey, we got it wrong and whatever else, but if they're telling themselves internally that, then we're going to have an issue and this is going to be another short test match here in prison.

We, we, we'll see, won't we? We'll see from fairly early on. I mean, look, I look at Joe Root now, he'll have been bitterly disappointed with how he, he, he got out there and he's a better player than that. And, you know, he, I'm sure will have looked at it and he'd be looking to adapt, to adapt his game. But again, I go back without beating the same old drum to go out into a game and score nice little 70 or 80 or something, you know, that, that does much more than any amount of net practice.

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Well, let's get the thoughts of Steve Smith, who is currently still deputising for Pat Cummins. He's been speaking to Corbyn here at the Gabba.

Steve, you're on captaincy duties. Are you captaining the team tomorrow?

We'll wait and see there's plenty of options on the table. Obviously, Paddy's pretty close. He's been bowling really well in the nets and it'll probably be determined after we have a look at the surface when they give it a snip at 3 o'.

Clock.

It's pretty exciting to think that he was really ruled out of this Test match and clearly is ahead of schedule to now be in the mix at least 24 hours out.

Yeah, he's been bowling, obviously, for a few weeks and pulling up well from his bowls and ramping his numbers up quickly. But, yeah, he's feeling good. So he's bowling nicely in the nets. Having faced him, he's, you know, he's getting the ball down at nice pace and steaming it round like he does. So, yeah, he's not far off.

So if he plays, he captains.

Yeah.

Yeah. Your record's looking really good, though. Seven times since Pat's taken over the main job and you're still undefeated.

Yeah, I mean, we've had a pretty good team the last few years, so it's easy to captain in a way. It's, you know, we've. We've had some really good success, so happy to hand it back and, you know, I'll help him out like I do every other game.

Well, I was about to say, I like to refer to you guys as almost the Test cricket's version of co captains, that you guys sort of run the show and he speaks to you a lot tactically out there on the field. Does the job change much when Pat's not there for what you have to do compared to when he is there, given how much I guess you guys.

Collaborate Anyway, he makes the decisions. I just help him out when I need to. Yeah, for me, it's obviously different when I'm in charge and I have to make all the decisions and, you know, I have people around helping me as well, so, you know, that's just how a team works.

No woozy. So he's not going to play here in Brisbane. How close was he to playing in what is now his home test match?

I'm not sure how close he was, but, yeah, he tried to do everything he could to get up for it. Unfortunately, he couldn't tick a couple of the boxes and, yeah, it was unavailable.

Josh Inglis comes in.

He's in the mix. Yeah. I think we'll know more later on this afternoon. How we want to go about things and how we match up, but he's certainly in the mix to change the cordon.

Who Becomes the first slipper.

I think Marne might be slotting in the armchair, which I prefer him out in the field somewhere so I don't have to listen to him. But, you know, he catches well. Hopefully I can keep him focused there next to me for a while. Yeah. When not much is happening. But no, I think he's going to slot into the armchair.

We saw you at training during the week with the eye black on, which we've seen, obviously, in American sports. You cut your time now between Australia and the us. Where did the inspiration come from to roll with the I black and will we see you wear it in the Test?

I thought about it last week, I was like, maybe I'll give these a go. I struggle a little bit picking up the pink ball both day and night. The glare off either the side screen and the ball and the lights on the ball, it's tricky. And, yeah, I've trailed it out in the nets and I currently believe it makes a pretty significant difference. So, yeah, I'll be rocking it.

So is it glare? Is it the difference between light and dark? What is it in particular that it aids with?

Yeah, I mean, just the light coming in and then the vision of the pink ball. It's pretty bright itself. Yeah. Trolled it out a couple of times and, yeah, like I said, I feel like it's making a difference. So, you know, it's not going to hurt. If anything can help, you know, I'll give it a go.

The pink ball. What are some of the unique challenges in particular about the pink ball with? Obviously, it itself has had a few changes over the decade that we've been playing Test cricket.

Yeah. I mean, at times it can have a mind of its own. You know, things can change really quickly given the time of day, how old the ball is, how new the ball is and the wicket, if it softens it up, things like that. So, you know, there's plenty of intricacies that go into the game of pink ball Test cricket. You've got to try and stick to, you know, each period and play according to what's going on at that certain time and adapt accordingly when things do change really quickly.

Well, that was Steve Smith, who's been talking to Corbyn Middlemass here at the Gabba. Corbyn, there are a lot of unanswered questions in that interview because we don't actually know, as things stand, who is going to be walking out there at half past one lunchtime tomorrow to toss the coin with Ben Stokes. Just explain.

Well, Pat Cumins will be there if he's in the 11. So Smith went as far as to at least say that, that, hey, if, if Pat's going to be here, I'll no longer be the skipper. He, he'll have the job back, as you'd expect. But the Pat Cuman story has been fascinating where he's had this back injury. He was ruled out of the first Test. We saw him in Perth bowling incredibly in the, in the nets and you thought, gee, these guys really close. And then as soon as the Test finished, Andrew McDonald moved to try and calm down some of the hysteria and basically said, look, he's still a little way off yet, we're not expecting him to play. And then sure enough, a couple of days later, they ruled him out of this second Test match. Most people arrive in Brisbane today and their build up continues, obviously. And there are a few reports coming out saying, hey, Cummins is still very much in the mix and by the time the pre test press conference takes place, that which the captain ordinarily attends, Steve Smith showed up and was fielding questions. And I don't know if it's adds to some of the mystery around it all or whether he's genuinely in the mix, but Pat rolled up short time afterwards. He was involved in training. He went out and had a look at the pitch with the chief selector, George Bailey, Andrew McDonald and Steve Smith. And Cummins was down on his haunches, sort of pushing at the pitch, looking at various spots. So didn't look to me like the sign of a guy that was just a casual onlooker. He looked as if he was very interested in how that pitch was going to play. So you put your finger in the wind and it feels like Pat has said to them, hey, I'm ready to go. There's nothing holding me back. And if I'm fit and available and you guys see that and I've done the work, my workloads up. This is an Ashes Test match on the captain of the team I want to play. And Australia are going to give him every chance. They're going to wait till the toss tomorrow to put their final 11 in.

Very unusual, I mean to, for a fast bowler to go through all of that and still, and still be waiting up to the toss that you normally need to prove your fit the day before by the very latest. So it's interesting, I mean, one look at that pitch, I suspect he'll link himself in the side. There's so much grass on it, I mean, and Australia would like their, their main man there. In, in that situation with England under pressure, a lot of grass on the pitch, One of the best fast bowlers in the modern game. Hasn't played any cricket, of course. Yeah, but even, you know, I've been in, I was in Sydney five, six weeks ago and he was bowling in the nets there. He's bowling with a pink ball, actually, interestingly enough, in, in the scg. So I thought then, well, maybe he's got Brisbane in his mind to be the game that he plays in. But they know, look, you know, Australia win this game, as we've talked a few moments ago. So I don't know if he, if he's, if he's, if he's good to go, then I suspect he'll play.

But both Australia and England have been very gentlemanly in the way they've announced their team ahead of time over the last couple of years. Australia, obviously under Pat Cummins and England under Ben Stokes, is this bit of gamesmanship. I mean, England named 12 and then finalised their 11 of the toss in Perth. But it's very unusual from an Australian or for an Australian team to leave it this open ended the day before Test.

Yeah, well, and particularly, I mean, I suppose because he's captain, they want to give him every chance, don't they? And. And just because he isn't playing doesn't mean he isn't captain anymore. You know, he's still very much part of the management of this team. So that's why, I guess he was looking at the pitch and thinking about options if he isn't fit. I mean, who, who, you know, who plays, or more often, or more interestingly, if he is fit, who isn't going to play? I mean, who, who. Which one are they going to bin?

So Steve Smith did say today Nathan Lyon will play. So it's not as if they're looking at a complete change of that, the makeup. So I imagine Brendan Doggart, who would be the. The last man in, will be the unlucky one and the, the first man out. He wouldn't even confirm whether Josh Inglis is playing, which I think we all suspect Englis is going to come and, and play either in the middle order or potentially as the opener. This is the other thing, this version of the Australian cricket team, they talk about, you know, fluid batting lineups and everyone can bat in any position. So either Head stays or goes back to the middle order and English comes in up the top, or English goes in the middle order and Head retains his. His opening position, which he obviously got Last minute in, in Perth and peeled off that, that memorable 100.

That's the really interesting one, isn't it?

Yeah.

Would you open with head again after that when he's just taken the attack to the cleaners, Albeit an attack was pretty ragged and, and a crazy such telegraphed policy of just trying to bounce him all the time so they would have to restart. But it'd be tempting to open up again in, wouldn't it?

I would be, yeah, absolutely. And always think about him as a former cricketer. Surely if you're standing there at the top of your mark, who do you not want to see with bat in hand? And if you're England, you'd be thinking, I don't want this guy out here opening the batting. He's, he did get a king pair in a game here a couple of years ago, but either side of that he's got pink ball hundreds everywhere. Got one in Adelaide last year. He's got one here in the past. So he is. And there's always a lag with these things and we have such reverence for Steve Smith in this country as, as we should. But he's Australia's premier batsman right now, Travis Head and yeah, I, I'd love to see him open.

We, we'll see very early tomorrow whether England bat or bowl, whether they have cleared their minds from Perth. If the bowlers run in hard ahead and bow properly at him and not in a sort of a slightly scarred way, then they've managed to get rid of some of the stuff. If the batson come out and they're leaving more, they're not going for booming drives and they're working hard and they really make Australia work for the wickets. They've learned from it. So either, either way we, we'll, we'll get an idea of what's happened these last 10 days.

Going to be absolutely fascinating. What transpires certainly in the next 48 hours and let's hope it lasts a little bit more than that as well here at the Gabba. My thanks to Jonathan and to Corbyn. That's it from us. It all gets underway on Thursday on BBC Sounds and five sports extra from 3:25 in the morning. And don't forget, if you miss any of the action, you can listen to highlights or catch up on the full commentary of the day's play in the Ashes of feed on Sounds. To find that, just search Ashes on BBC Sounds.

This winter, cricket's oldest rivalry is reignited. England and Australia do battle to compete for the Ashes. That is extraordinary. Here, live ball by ball commentary on five Sports Extra and get analysis and reaction of every day's play with the Test Match Special podcast.

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